Zoanthids not opening and withering away...

[pleuralplexus]

Here's what's happening to every single zoanthids colony in my tank:

<a href="http://s1033.photobucket.com/albums/a416/sdwigint/?action=view&current=3E827BC8-70B9-46AB-B0EC-D0C9E32FEDF5-22779-00003EF020D5A6BC.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1033.photobucket.com/albums/a416/sdwigint/3E827BC8-70B9-46AB-B0EC-D0C9E32FEDF5-22779-00003EF020D5A6BC.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket Pictures, Images and Photos" /></a>

Even when I introduce a new frag colony of polyps, this instantly happens: they never open up all the way again. Over time, they all are bleaching and withering away. I'm quite aware that zoa's require good chemistry, and all my chemistry levels are fine. Also, I've read they need feeding. Well I've tried puffing som reef chili at them occasionally, nut it doesn't help. Maybe it's because they're never open to eat.

I supplement with kent iodide, kend strontium/molybdenum, and I've even occasionally add some potassium for the SPS colonies.

What am I missing here?

[reefwars]

Here's what's happening to every single zoanthids colony in my tank:

<a href="http://s1033.photobucket.com/albums/a416/sdwigint/?action=view&current=3E827BC8-70B9-46AB-B0EC-D0C9E32FEDF5-22779-00003EF020D5A6BC.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1033.photobucket.com/albums/a416/sdwigint/3E827BC8-70B9-46AB-B0EC-D0C9E32FEDF5-22779-00003EF020D5A6BC.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket Pictures, Images and Photos" /></a>

Even when I introduce a new frag colony of polyps, this instantly happens: they never open up all the way again. Over time, they all are bleaching and withering away. I'm quite aware that zoa's require good chemistry, and all my chemistry levels are fine. Also, I've read they need feeding. Well I've tried puffing som reef chili at them occasionally, nut it doesn't help. Maybe it's because they're never open to eat.

I supplement with kent iodide, kend strontium/molybdenum, and I've even occasionally add some potassium for the SPS colonies.

What am I missing here?


a bit more info would be needed to actually narrow it down but i would start with fish and pests...more so nudibranchs.

what fish do you have , and could you post your full water parameters and tank info, i know you say they are good but it really does help.

cheers and goodluck

[reefwars]

im just reading your sig , can you elaborate on your leds? power and brand and settings ?

[gordonj1]

It could be some sort of disease affecting them. Or it could be your water parameters. I have never had an issue like this before.

How long has this lasted?

[brandon429]

one thing to try is never dosing iodide again
that could be affecting them and its never needed, food provides it

also the acan is bleaching too, show us a fts of how high the lighting is above the tank

[pleuralplexus]

Ok so I checked my chemistry again. Here's what it is right now, and here's everything else about the tank I can think of:
:reading:
Ca 420 ppm
Alk 161 ppm
SG 1.025 via refractometer
pH 8.16
Temp 75.4
Phosphate 0
Nitrate 0

Fish: maroon clown, long nose hawk, firefish goby, cardinal
Inverts: coral banded shrimp, scarlet legged hermits, turbo snails
hitchhiker: small green fiddler crab that's been in my rock for about 4 years, tiny white starfish (they seem to all be gone now). Formerly a few bristle worms, but they havent been seen since the long nose hawk showed up. No nudibranchs that I know of.

The zoanthids have seemed somewhat unhappy since the beginning of this build (january) but now, they are bleaching and atrophying. This is also happening to my yellow polyps, despite the occasional feeding. Also have three green button polyps and they seem to be unhappy now too as of this week.

As for the acan in the picture: that's the color that it was straight from the LFS

Other corals:
three colonies of xenias, all pulsing happily (two of these colonies were not pulsing before they were introduced into my tank)
Daisy polyps- 75% open during the day
Three varieties of acropora: doing fine so far, one growing quickly
Two cat paw montipora: healthy (aside from bleaching on one from previously being mounted too high, now resolving)
Small green bird's nest- healthy
Two varieties of montipora capricornis- growing
One small Australian brain- healthy, but just arrived last week
One small hammer coral
One very small finger leather coral- not very happy, due to high current and the high range SG

Coralline algae: not propagating on the glass or tank back at all. This is an utter mystery to me

Live rock: maybe 20lb of nice mature purple rock from previous builds and LFS. Some of it is cultured live rock.

Substrate: mixture of FijiPink aragonite and about 1/4 bag of black aragalive sand


Tank parameters:

JBJ 28g PROFESSIONAL
TANK VOLUME
28G

Tank lighting: LED, mounted right over the water, which is the stock configuration
DAYLIGHT
25 x 3W/14k
DAYLIGHT CURRENT
700mA
MOON LIGHTS
2 x 1WATT/456nm
MOONLIGHT CURRENT
350mA
DAWN/DUSK
4 x 3WATT/466nm
DAWN/DUSK CURRENT
700mA
TOTAL WATTS
89 WATTS

Skimmer: HOB1; collects half a cup of medium brown opaque thin liquid skimmate daily

Filtration: two phosban150 reactors plumbed in series, both charged with phosban, changed monthly; center filter chamber contains filter floss on top, chemipure, then a foam block on the bottom

Auto top-off: JBJ ATO

Chiller: 1/15 Hp Mini Arctica (has a titanium heat exchanger)

Food: alternate brine shrimp (target fed to fish, corals and inverts every two to three days via 10mL lab grade pipette) and mysis shrimp (tank fed every other day). Occasional reef chili dissolved in small cup of tank water

Chemicals:

Salt: Red sea coral pro
Water: RODI from in-house plumbed unit from BRS. TDS meter reads 0.0
Ca and Alk: B-ionic two part, now at 15mL each part dosed daily
Trace elements: kent iodide, kent strontium & molybdenum, kent potassium all dosed according to the packages

[brandon429]

Tricky mystery that is...i don't see dots on them like zoa pox

Params seem good, I'd do two or three big w changes to lessen chemical insults, contaminants if any

Matched temp and sg, poured slowly to not kick up sandbed, big change is fine

[reefwars]

Ok so I checked my chemistry again. Here's what it is right now, and here's everything else about the tank I can think of:
:reading:
Ca 420 ppm
Alk 161 ppm
SG 1.025 via refractometer
pH 8.16
Temp 75.4
Phosphate 0
Nitrate 0

Fish: maroon clown, long nose hawk, firefish goby, cardinal
Inverts: coral banded shrimp, scarlet legged hermits, turbo snails
hitchhiker: small green fiddler crab that's been in my rock for about 4 years, tiny white starfish (they seem to all be gone now). Formerly a few bristle worms, but they havent been seen since the long nose hawk showed up. No nudibranchs that I know of.

The zoanthids have seemed somewhat unhappy since the beginning of this build (january) but now, they are bleaching and atrophying. This is also happening to my yellow polyps, despite the occasional feeding. Also have three green button polyps and they seem to be unhappy now too as of this week.

As for the acan in the picture: that's the color that it was straight from the LFS

Other corals:
three colonies of xenias, all pulsing happily (two of these colonies were not pulsing before they were introduced into my tank)
Daisy polyps- 75% open during the day
Three varieties of acropora: doing fine so far, one growing quickly
Two cat paw montipora: healthy (aside from bleaching on one from previously being mounted too high, now resolving)
Small green bird's nest- healthy
Two varieties of montipora capricornis- growing
One small Australian brain- healthy, but just arrived last week
One small hammer coral
One very small finger leather coral- not very happy, due to high current and the high range SG

Coralline algae: not propagating on the glass or tank back at all. This is an utter mystery to me

Live rock: maybe 20lb of nice mature purple rock from previous builds and LFS. Some of it is cultured live rock.

Substrate: mixture of FijiPink aragonite and about 1/4 bag of black aragalive sand


Tank parameters:

JBJ 28g PROFESSIONAL
TANK VOLUME
28G

Tank lighting: LED, mounted right over the water, which is the stock configuration
DAYLIGHT
25 x 3W/14k
DAYLIGHT CURRENT
700mA
MOON LIGHTS
2 x 1WATT/456nm
MOONLIGHT CURRENT
350mA
DAWN/DUSK
4 x 3WATT/466nm
DAWN/DUSK CURRENT
700mA
TOTAL WATTS
89 WATTS

Skimmer: HOB1; collects half a cup of medium brown opaque thin liquid skimmate daily

Filtration: two phosban150 reactors plumbed in series, both charged with phosban, changed monthly; center filter chamber contains filter floss on top, chemipure, then a foam block on the bottom

Auto top-off: JBJ ATO

Chiller: 1/15 Hp Mini Arctica (has a titanium heat exchanger)

Food: alternate brine shrimp (target fed to fish, corals and inverts every two to three days via 10mL lab grade pipette) and mysis shrimp (tank fed every other day). Occasional reef chili dissolved in small cup of tank water

Chemicals:

Salt: Red sea coral pro
Water: RODI from in-house plumbed unit from BRS. TDS meter reads 0.0
Ca and Alk: B-ionic two part, now at 15mL each part dosed daily
Trace elements: kent iodide, kent strontium & molybdenum, kent potassium all dosed according to the packages



how old are the frags, and how long have you had your light on this tank??

[reefwars]

http://i1033.photobucket.com/albums/a416/sdwigint/5EAB5A2E-9F2B-434E-9C6A-0F100AA3E7F8-21749-00003C9AE62C3702.jpg


judging by this pic i would say too much light

[pleuralplexus]

So it's just too much light? Wow. There are several people in this SIG who have nearly this same tank setup, and they have excellent growth. I bought this LED canopy three months ago. It isn't dimmable. So looks like I've got two options: look for a dimmable driver conversion kit (does anyone know of one for this canopy?) or put the light up for sale. IF this really is the issue.

[autodave]

Have you looked for zoa-eating nudibranchs?

[K-ROK]

Do you move the Zoas around much or have they always been in the same spots? I've noticed they HATE being moved. Once I get them in a "happy place" in my tank I leave them alone. I have gotten in the habit of using a turkey baster once in awhile to blast the detritus, sand, etc off them. Keeping them "dusted" in this way seems to make them happy.

I have mine in a low/med light area with low/med flow. I don't think they really require much light.

[reefwars]

So it's just too much light? Wow. There are several people in this SIG who have nearly this same tank setup, and they have excellent growth. I bought this LED canopy three months ago. It isn't dimmable. So looks like I've got two options: look for a dimmable driver conversion kit (does anyone know of one for this canopy?) or put the light up for sale. IF this really is the issue.



no you dont need to sell them, the corals need time to get used to the lights , if the frags are somewhat new and came from a system that had less par then they need to be acclimated slowly to the new ligts.

if the lights them selves is new then same deal as above.

simply rasing your light higer will tell you if this is the case.

if its nudibranchs youll find them a couple hours before morning on the polyps or stalks of the zoanthids, look closely for adults and eggs.


i dont think its nudibranchs though....which is better IMO

[reefwars]

moving them around wont do that unless your damaging them somehow.

think about how much stuff gets tossed in transit and shipping....a little handiling may make them close but wont keep them closed or cause them to melt.

[pleuralplexus]

Well if it isn't nudibranchs and it is the lights, this has been a problem, now that I think about it, which pre-dates my LED fixture. So maybe it is a pest. I'll look more closely to see if I find anything.

Suppose I do find a nudibranch. Then what?

[pleuralplexus]

OK so....
I had to work until midnight yesterday (7a-12p) so I thought it would be a perfect opportunity to look everything over carefully with a flashlight in the wee hours of the morning. No nudibranchs seen. There were some little white dots that I thought could be eggs, but they turned out to just be bits of sand. Then I noticed that my scarlet legged hermits are spending an inordinate amout of time picking over each individual zoa colony... I'm still stumped.

I gotta say, if it wasnt for all of the ridiculous light splash from lack of a canopy, and the ugly-butt way you have to hang it, I would probably switch to an AI or a radion tomorrow.

[K-ROK]

moving them around wont do that unless your damaging them somehow.

think about how much stuff gets tossed in transit and shipping....a little handiling may make them close but wont keep them closed or cause them to melt.

I agree; coral, or anything for that matter takes a beating when shipped. However, moving them from place to place seems to make them unhappy and stay closed longer. When moved, the lighting and water flow on them will change and they need time to adapt before they open up. (if they ever do at all.)

I guess my point is if these are being moved often, they may never have time to adapt to the new conditions and finally open up.

[pleuralplexus]

I agree about letting them adapt. Thats what Ive done and I dont think thats the problem either. These were put in place moths ago. The ones that are bleached, barely perceptible nubs have been there the longest. The ones that open slightly and still have some color have been there the least amount of time. So clearly I have been patient, and apparently they have no plans to adapt (if in fact it is an adaptation issue). As a matter of fact, I could guarantee you that if I went to my LFS & picked up a new zoa frag, it would be in exactly the same shape as all of these are, no matter where I place them in the tank. That's been my experience anyway.

[brandon429]

the iodide can be and is a problem in many tanks using it, as long as its used that can't be ruled out.
You would need to do several large water changes to make the water table reset to pre-iodide dosing levels.

[baxinabox]

pleuralplexus,

i have had the same problem in my Tank, ( but i run an 8gallon tank ).
the reason it happend to me is i didnt do a water change in 3 weeks.

When is the last time you did a large water change ? ( 25% + )

[pleuralplexus]

I do a 20% WC once a week. In fact, I did one Saturday so it's nearly time for another.

[pleuralplexus]

Brandon, how should I dose iodine for the xenias ect then? Lugols? 2LF iodine?
It'll take me quite a while to prep enough water for a huge WC like that, but I guess it's worth a shot.

BTW, thanks so much to each of you for your input. I really appreciate it. I went to our LFS and asked the guy what his opinion was on why my zoas were having this issue. He was no help as usual. He said he has never been able to keep zoantgids alive and he has no idea why. So really, guys, thanks. I'm really leaning on your input.

[reefwars]

Brandon, how should I dose iodine for the xenias ect then? Lugols? 2LF iodine?
It'll take me quite a while to prep enough water for a huge WC like that, but I guess it's worth a shot.

BTW, thanks so much to each of you for your input. I really appreciate it. I went to our LFS and asked the guy what his opinion was on why my zoas were having this issue. He was no help as usual. He said he has never been able to keep zoantgids alive and he has no idea why. So really, guys, thanks. I'm really leaning on your input.



they can be frustrating but the enjoyment is there if you put the work into it i dont believe it when people say they cant grow them it just takes some tweaking of your system , eventually you get it all figured out.

[Michigan Mike]

Hmm, my zoos looked like that under too low light, once upon a time.

Did you glue a plate coral to a rock?

[amutti]

I've seen Zoos do weird things even if everything seems great. I didn't notice, but are you running any carbon or something like carbon? I'd do that for a week to make sure there are no bad chems in the water (I actual prefer to use chemi pure as it removes silica, copper, etc.).

I've saved at least 4 tanks (not all mine) that had mysterious zoo die-offs, an no other obvious cause, by temporarily dosing with vitamin C. There are threads on it and where to get the right type of vitamin C in zoo forum. This is a really good "cure" for zoo pox too.

That's my $0.02. Good luck!

[pleuralplexus]

Thanks so much guys!
I'm all in on this build so whatever it takes, that's what I'll do.

RYC:
No I didn't glue down that plate coral. I had a monitors glued down there and moved it because the light was too much for it right there. So I just used the hunk of glue as a platform to rest the plate on.

I actually do use chemipure. Usually chemipure elite. I always keep a fresh bag running int middle chamber.

[pleuralplexus]

Last night, like I do so many nights, I combed through the tank when the lights were off and I found a small nudibranch. So there you go... It may have been nudibranchs causing the problem all along.

Also I started dosing Vitamin C and that seems to have gotten some of the zoas to open up some