First small dose of cupramine problems help!

[Ryand63]

In my 10 gallon qt I have a medium flame angel and a mistake clown. Since the flames are extra sensitive to copper I am dosimg slowly and gradually to get up to about .4 of copper. I only added ten drops 24 hours ago and am not going to add the other ten until tomorrow but he is already showing signs of stress. Is this normal? I really don't want to lose my flame. I woke up and he was lethargically swimming and when he went by the hob filter he kind of stuck to the intake until I distracted him. Help!

[sponger0]

IMO 10 drops is too much copper. Have you tested the copper levels or ammonia? Whats the salinity?

[LargeAngels]

On what basis do you think 10 drops of Cupramine is too much for a 10 gallon qt?

I've used Cupramine on all my flames with no issues.

[sponger0]

On what basis do you think 10 drops of Cupramine is too much for a 10 gallon qt?

I've used Cupramine on all my flames with no issues.

Well evidently it is as his flame isnt handling it. And is in bad condition but the other fish isnt.

[Ryand63]

Ammonia: .25, but has been for the past week befor I started dosing, b/c I had to set up an emergency QT, I do waterchanges every day or every other day but it still stays at .25. Salinity: 1.024. and copper barely showing at about .5ppm. The clown seems perfectly fine but the flame seems to be lethargic and having a difficult time swimming normally. Once I'm home from work should I wait to see how he is tomorrow or do a water change and reduce the copper or what? I'm nervous to lose my favorite fish. Just trying to do the right thing.

[sponger0]

You dosed 10 drops and now have .5 reading on copper? From my understanding you should be aiming more for .3-.4

[Ryand63]

I'm using an API test kit that goes from 0ppm to 4ppm. My reading is about .5ppm so about an 8th of what I should be aiming for at 4ppm.

[sponger0]

IME, I wouldnt trust API for something like that. But to be sure, get another test kit like salifert or red sea to double check what the copper is at.

[LargeAngels]

Ammonia should be 0. As a side not ammonia test kits will give a false positive from the Cupramine. What copper test kit are you using?

You should have much less than 0.5 of copper at this point if you only added 10 drops (0.5 ml) to 10 gallons. I suspect that you have more like 7 actual gallons of water. With smaller tanks it is more important to know the ACTUAL water volume instead of going by tank size.

I would use carbon to remove the copper until you can get the ammonia under control. Why did you treat in the first place?

[sponger0]

Why did you treat in the first place?

I have to say I highly agree with LargeAngels on this

[sponger0]

Also if you need to lower the copper, a water change and cuprasorb would help.

[LargeAngels]

Use Seachem's copper test kit.

Take care of the ammonia issue ASAP! Ammonia kills more fish in QT than any disease.

[Ryand63]

I am treating Ich that sprung up on the flame angel and infected my clown. I'll do a good sized water change once I get home today and try to get the ammonia down and the copper down. What should I do in the mean time copper wise until I get a new test kit? keep it low? .5ppm of copper on this test kit is minimal at most...it ranges from 0-4ppm. so .5ppm is only 1/8th of the total amount i'd be shooting for.

[sponger0]

I am treating Ich that sprung up on the flame angel and infected my clown. I'll do a good sized water change once I get home today and try to get the ammonia down and the copper down. What should I do in the mean time copper wise until I get a new test kit? keep it low? .5ppm of copper on this test kit is minimal at most...it ranges from 0-4ppm. so .5ppm is only 1/8th of the total amount i'd be shooting for.

You have no LFS with better test kits?

And where are you getting your number for levels of copper?

[Ryand63]

The API kit was the one at my LFS. The numbers are straight from the API test kit. it ranges from 0-4ppm. with increments such as .5, 1, 2, 4 ppm. mine is at .5

[Ryand63]

so should I lower it to about.25?

[sponger0]

Well you def need a better kit. This is why I generally never use API. Especially on things you need accurate readings with. You most likely could be anywhere from .3-.7

Now if you arent home right now to do anythign to the tank, and the flame was stuck to the HOB, I wouldnt surprised if he doesnt make it.

[Ryand63]

I'll have to try and run home on lunch than and try and get a water change done.

[Ryand63]

Just thinking though, 10 drops to 10 gallons hypothetically shouldn't be a high concentration of copper at all right? I nkwo every fish reacts different but I was reading through alot of threads and reviews saying that on a 10g tank people dose 10 drops on day 1, 3, 5 to get to about .4. Wouldn't 10 drops only be around .175 or so hypothetically

[sponger0]

Your right. This is why the API kit is no good for this. I have a salifert kit for copper. It reads only up to .5 in increments of .1.

It took me 4 days of 8 drops a day before I even came close in a 14 gallon tank.

[Ryand63]

got ya. well my kit is obviusly wrong but ikll order or try to track down the seachem test kit until then though just water change to reduce the copper?

[reeferstace]

Have you considered tank transfer for treating the ick? It's much easier on the fish and there are no copper readings to worry about.

[Ryand63]

I have only heard of tank transfer, Do not really know the details

[Ryand63]

Just went home and did a 40 or so percent water change and the angel is doing worse, he is laying on the bottom under the PVC. I'm so mad/confused. There is barely ANY copper in there compared to where it should be! Ugh...

[LargeAngels]

Are you sure it is ich and not velvet? If you do a FW dip and you see "dust" on the bottom of the container it is velvet and not ich. FW dips don't work on ich.

Either way you have to get the ammonia under control or they will die.

[Sk8r]

Copper, alas, is a poison that kills the ich faster than it kills larger creatures like fish. I have had very rotten results from it, partly because the fish I like tend to be sensitive to it. I prefer hypo as a method for ich treatment.

Assuming this is not a cycled qt, (the cycled bacteria would be killed by the copper anyway) I'd do a complete water change, aerate to the max, and just cross your fingers. At this point the copper is probably more of a problem to that fish than the ich is.

[sponger0]

Im sorry man. That sucks. Did you test the ammonia before you did a water change?

Imagine my grief. I bought a flame which I had been debating for over a year to get one to put in my reef. He had ich. Hypoed him. Cured him. But decided to stop eating once I started raising salinity and got to about 1.015. He didnt make it. 3 months of treatment and he didnt make it. I feel your pain

[Ryand63]

yeah I've always wanted a flame, finally got one and this happens. ammonia before water change was .25 and seemed to be pretty close to 0 after wards. He is still alive but BARELYYYYYYYY. I tracked down a salifert test 30 minutes away but NOT ONE store around has a seachem test. does salifert work ok with cupramine? and is the flame the only dwarf angel that is overly sensitive to copper?

[sponger0]

Trust me. Basically same thing happened to me. Only difference is I went all the way through treatment

I used the salifert and it worked perfectly for me. But make sure you do the tests in bright light. The blue color chart is very close.

Actually flames are suppose to handle copper pretty well from my readings but I still decided to go with hypo.

[gweston]

Looks like it's mostly covered, but in summary.

For cupramine

API Copper test kit doesn't work with Cupramine.
Use Seachem(they make cupramine) , and or possibly Seifert.
Ammonia testing is inaccurate with Cupramine. Think about a Seachem ammonia badge (supposedly works with cupramine). But the badge shouldn't be entirely relied on. Unsure if seachem ammonia test works. Haven't tried yet.

I use Cupramine often. The seachem test has been very effective. I have an ammonia badge. It is ok, but not very accurate. Periodic copper testing and water changes is key. I change water every 3 days or so on the QT and it keeps things in line. My normal copper level is between 0.4-0.5 for treatments over a period of 3 weeks. I'd adjust down dosage and increase qt time for sensitive fish.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 2

[Ryand63]

going to get the salifert test tomorrow morning. hope it works better.

[chad316]

It looks they the guys and gals have covered everything for you. Sorry to hear about your troubles. Don't let this turn you off to the whole QT process though!

[Ryand63]

No I won't, just going to make sure to QT all the time and longer...and will be getting salifert test tomorrow!

[sponger0]

And also if you dont have a LFS that has medications easily available, look into getting them before you purchase fish. Only reason I said that is cause you said your LFS only had API kits.

[Ryand63]

Yeah the close one only has API. One about 40 mins away I found out got some salifert in

[den75]

Does Cupramine kill off the beneficial bacteria if you are using a seeded sponge in the QT?

[LargeAngels]

IME Cupramine does NOT kill off the beneficial bacteria. I have a bunch of Angels right now in qt with Cupramine ( including a flame) and they are thriving.

[Ryand63]

well the flame passed away within id say 30 hours of first dose, which was not even a 1/4 of what the desired levels was so I'm baffled. Clown is doing great though in the HT with the copper. About to add my second dose today

[MrTuskfish]

Are you sure it is ich and not velvet? If you do a FW dip and you see "dust" on the bottom of the container it is velvet and not ich. FW dips don't work on ich.

Either way you have to get the ammonia under control or they will die.


Yes the ammonia needs to be a priority. API test kits don't accurately read Cupramine. Read the FAQ:
http://www.seachem.com/Products/product_pages/Cupramine.html

[Ryand63]

ill be leaving around 1230 to go get a salifert test...long drive but worth it