Zoa / Paly studies

[zoafarm]

I've been following threads and doing research on zoas/palys for the better part of a year. I also have multiple types in my tanks. From what I've read, many things effect growth rates...flow, lighting, nutrients, salinity, ect... It's also appears that certain zoas/palys like more or less of any of the above conditions. My question is:

Has anyone actually studied any of these factors as they apply to specific zoas or palys. For example, are Rastas different from say Captain Americas in any factors? Or are they all the same, and given the same ideal conditions the growth rates are identical or very close?

If anyone has studied this, I would very much like to learn. Thanks for your help!

[K-ROK]

I've been following threads and doing research on zoas/palys for the better part of a year. I also have multiple types in my tanks. From what I've read, many things effect growth rates...flow, lighting, nutrients, salinity, ect... It's also appears that certain zoas/palys like more or less of any of the above conditions. My question is:

Has anyone actually studied any of these factors as they apply to specific zoas or palys. For example, are Rastas different from say Captain Americas in any factors? Or are they all the same, and given the same ideal conditions the growth rates are identical or very close?

If anyone has studied this, I would very much like to learn. Thanks for your help!

I read somewhere that Zoas grow faster when they are not surrounded by polyps. For example...a frag on a plug will only produce new polyps on the outer edge, but a frag that has space in the middle areas will produce there as well - basically giving you twice as many polyps in the same time period.

[A. Grandis]

I've been following threads and doing research on zoas/palys for the better part of a year. I also have multiple types in my tanks. From what I've read, many things effect growth rates...flow, lighting, nutrients, salinity, ect... It's also appears that certain zoas/palys like more or less of any of the above conditions. My question is:

Has anyone actually studied any of these factors as they apply to specific zoas or palys. For example, are Rastas different from say Captain Americas in any factors? Or are they all the same, and given the same ideal conditions the growth rates are identical or very close?

If anyone has studied this, I would very much like to learn. Thanks for your help!

No, no scientific studies about the different influences on specific species of zoanthids' growth/ reproduction in closed systems. Not that I know of.

Grandis.

[zoafarm]

K-ROK -- Thanks, but was not really looking for information on overall zoa growth rate methods, but more specific towards individual types.

Grandis -- Ok...so no scientific studies. Do you know of any hobbist that might have studied these effects in their aquariums.

[A. Grandis]

If not scientific, what type of studies you're talking about?
People can say what they want online and many others will agree or not.
Even books have some info that many can say they are old and not applicable anymore.
Some things can work for some people but not necessarily work for others and every system is different anyway.
Some books even have their scientific references to try to prove their thoughts around subjects that aren't totally true for all closed system.
That is how the forums work. If not scientific people will discuss and doubt more than if is.
The bottom line is to have fun and know that this is just a hobby and do your best for the zoas.
It's very important to have your own experiences and to share with others to try improve constantly.

Grandis.

[zoafarm]

Agreed...and fun is definity the name of the game or just get out of the hobby. Too expensive not to enjoy. :) I guess my curiousity got the better of me one day. I was thinking zoas and palys are found at different levels with different light within the ocean, and wondered if any grew in one particular area or zone as it relates to a specific zoa/paly. For instead, do some zoas respond better to blue light spectrums because of their natural depth in the ocean, and if so, what zoas/palys fall in that particular zone.

[Smnparish]

I have seen "deepwater" zoas/palys for sale before, so those would probably be the ones from lower light.

However, each tank is different in which zoas respond best to it...one zoa will grow fast in one tank, but in the other that same zoa may not grow at all.

General rule is if it is expensive, it is a slow grower lol

[A. Grandis]

I could try to answer that...
They are found in many different environments and depths.
Some times you can find the very same species of zoanthids on rocks exposed to air during low tides, to depths of 30+ feet down.
Light spectrum is very different in those environments!
Same works with water flow and even dissolved nutrients, what people like to call "dirty water". But "dirty water" does not work well in closed systems.
Same for the water flow. You can find the very same species of zoa with very light to no water flow, and around very strong wave action.

That's the reason why many different types of set up can support corals, zoanthids, and so on...

Not all the zoa species can be that flexible though and that's when experiences come in.

To find the common denominator for the zoas you've got is the challenge and what makes it fun.

Grandis.

[KafudaFish]

I have seen "deepwater" zoas/palys for sale before, so those would probably be the ones from lower light.

However, each tank is different in which zoas respond best to it...one zoa will grow fast in one tank, but in the other that same zoa may not grow at all.

General rule is if it is expensive, it is a slow grower lol

Deepwater is a marketing term to make those color morphs seem rare/harder to obtain therefore their prices are higher.

However Japanese deepwater zoas are rare because they do not exist.


This may have changed in the last year(s) so I may be wrong but when the deepwater craze hit this was the case.

[zoafarm]

Smnparish - I've read the same thing, and everone's tank is different...so everyone should get different results. And I've heard that general rule :), but let's take Purple Hornets for example...some people say they are hard to grow and have slow growth; whereas, in someone else's tank they may explode with growth.

So assuming I was strictly focused on Purple Hornets, what conditions make that particular zoa thrive. And are those conditions perfect for any other zoa or group of zoas, and not perfect for some other type?

[zoafarm]

Grandis - Thank you...that's a good start. So the same zoa shows up in different conditions. So maybe, adaption plays a big role and given time in any location with the same condition over time the growth rate would improve. :)

[A. Grandis]

Deepwater is a marketing term to make those color morphs seem rare/harder to obtain therefore their prices are higher.

However Japanese deepwater zoas are rare because they do not exist.


This may have changed in the last year(s) so I may be wrong but when the deepwater craze hit this was the case.

:thumbsup:

Well said!
There are deep water zoanthids in Japan indeed, but they don't belong to the current market for sure! To define deep water is another thing.
Those colorful zoas just have the "Japanese look" they invented and therefore are cartoon named as "deepwater Japanese zoas". Everything they call "deep water" means more money!!!! Because it should be harder to find/collect.

That's a good observation, that could be well related to his question.

Grandis.

[A. Grandis]

Grandis - Thank you...that's a good start. So the same zoa shows up in different conditions. So maybe, adaption plays a big role and given time in any location with the same condition over time the growth rate would improve. :)

My last post was to show you the possibilities in the wild and to give you a wider view of possibilities in closed systems. Not all the zoa species are found in different environments as I've suggested before, and therefore the experiences with them in aquariums would bring the truth to what would be the best case scenario in regards to growth/reproduction rates.

I would say adaptation is just the beginning to be able to support them in an artificial environment, in our closed systems, and to be able to do changes in stablished systems. The reproduction/ growth rates are not necessarily and/or directly related to the adaptation period. A well stablished daughter colony in system "A" could have much lower reproduction/growth rate than another well stablished daughter colony from the same mother colony in system "B".

In other words, the variables are so many that we can't just set a pattern or a definitive rule. It that would be easy many people would be rich! :bum:

Grandis.

[zoafarm]

"Deepwater" or some "CrazyName" may equate to money in the marketplace. But bottom line...they are only worth what someone is willing to pay, and my threshold is VERY low. I have lots of "CrazyName" stuff, and must make the marketplace mad because I give it away for almost nothing. So when I use names, I'm only giving a reference point to work from. ;)

[zoafarm]

Thanks for the feedback Grandis. Much appreciated!

[A. Grandis]

"Deepwater" or some "CrazyName" may equate to money in the marketplace. But bottom line...they are only worth what someone is willing to pay, and my threshold is VERY low. I have lots of "CrazyName" stuff, and must make the marketplace mad because I give it away for almost nothing. So when I use names, I'm only giving a reference point to work from. ;)

The point here isn't about how people are using those cartoon names, but how and with what intention those names were generated in the first place. Specifically talking about the "Japanese deep water" zoas.

I don't think KafudaFish was judging you in any way. I'm sure he will post if I'm wrong.

Grandis.

[A. Grandis]

Thanks for the feedback Grandis. Much appreciated!

You're very welcome!

If you add more of your thoughts perhaps others will post more info to enrich the thread.

Do you actually have a zoa farm, or that's just a name?

Grandis.

[Smnparish]

So it looks like you're gonna have to be the one to study this topic then lol....I'll buy the book if you ever come up with anything solid!

[A. Grandis]

So it looks like you're gonna have to be the one to study this topic then lol....I'll buy the book if you ever come up with anything solid!

LOL!!! :reading: :hmm4:

Grandis.

[zoafarm]

I have about 40 or 50 something different types in my tank. When I first started in the hobby, zoas/palys really caught my attention. I have since started moving more towards SPS, but I still maintain interested in zoas/palys. I'm currently setting up a frag system which will solely be used for zoas, and have been doing a lot of searching for even more information to make the system even more productive than my DT.

I've been very fortunate to be able to acquire some great zoas/paly at little to no cost. My real goal is to share the experience with those new to the hobby. So farming...yes...profit...no. Most, not all, stuff I share pretty freely to help others start up, and grow for me in case I have a system crash (cross my fingers it doesn't happen). If it does, hopefully some of those people will share it back. :)

[debincalif]

I have about 40 or 50 something different types in my tank. When I first started in the hobby, zoas/palys really caught my attention. I have since started moving more towards SPS, but I still maintain interested in zoas/palys. I'm currently setting up a frag system which will solely be used for zoas, and have been doing a lot of searching for even more information to make the system even more productive than my DT.

I've been very fortunate to be able to acquire some great zoas/paly at little to no cost. My real goal is to share the experience with those new to the hobby. So farming...yes...profit...no. Most, not all, stuff I share pretty freely to help others start up, and grow for me in case I have a system crash (cross my fingers it doesn't happen). If it does, hopefully some of those people will share it back. :)

That's awesome! It's great that you're able to have a system set up and dedicated to zoas.

I could help with research... send me one of everything and I'll see how it does in my system! LOL! :lol2:

[A. Grandis]

I have about 40 or 50 something different types in my tank. When I first started in the hobby, zoas/palys really caught my attention. I have since started moving more towards SPS, but I still maintain interested in zoas/palys. I'm currently setting up a frag system which will solely be used for zoas, and have been doing a lot of searching for even more information to make the system even more productive than my DT.

I've been very fortunate to be able to acquire some great zoas/paly at little to no cost. My real goal is to share the experience with those new to the hobby. So farming...yes...profit...no. Most, not all, stuff I share pretty freely to help others start up, and grow for me in case I have a system crash (cross my fingers it doesn't happen). If it does, hopefully some of those people will share it back. :)

Alright, that's good to hear!
I would love to see what info you have to share. :thumbsup:
Would be great if you could start posting your observations about the growth/reproductive rates of your zoas.
We're all here to learn.
Thanks very much and please feel free to make this thread informative and possibly colorful with pictures of your systems, if you wish...

Grandis.

[A. Grandis]

That's awesome! It's great that you're able to have a system set up and dedicated to zoas.

I could help with research... send me one of everything and I'll see how it does in my system! LOL! :lol2:

If so, there will be a line soon here to get some free samples.

Grandis.

[reefwars]

im not sure but i could probably help you out , i collect,sell and propagate and currently have over 150 different types of zoanthids.

ive been doing zoanthids for almost 10yrs now, i work alot on how they grow,feed and color up.

i use a very high nutrient system and very high lighting(leds,mh and t5's)and my main focus is growth and color.

i am a hobbysts first and foremost with no scientific background just personal experience.

i experiment alot with feedings and pests as well.


what is it you would like to know exactly???

[zoafarm]

Again thanks to everyone that had input! When I get my frag system completely set up, I will try to document my observations, and follow up this post. I was kind of hoping others had thought the same thing, and recorded their findings.

Thanks Again, and Happy Reefing

[A. Grandis]

im not sure but i could probably help you out , i collect,sell and propagate and currently have over 150 different types of zoanthids.

ive been doing zoanthids for almost 10yrs now, i work alot on how they grow,feed and color up.

i use a very high nutrient system and very high lighting(leds,mh and t5's)and my main focus is growth and color.

i am a hobbysts first and foremost with no scientific background just personal experience.

i experiment alot with feedings and pests as well.


what is it you would like to know exactly???

I assume the question is not addressed to me, but please let me know if I could ask you some questions.
Or perhaps you should open a thread yourself to display some of your pictures and have a nice chat about the experiences and such?
Thanks very much in advance!

Grandis.

[A. Grandis]

Again thanks to everyone that had input! When I get my frag system completely set up, I will try to document my observations, and follow up this post. I was kind of hoping others had thought the same thing, and recorded their findings.

Thanks Again, and Happy Reefing

Perhaps you would like to take a look at this very interesting thread:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1867538

Have fun!

Grandis.

[reefwars]

I assume the question is not addressed to me, but please let me know if I could ask you some questions.
Or perhaps you should open a thread yourself to display some of your pictures and have a nice chat about the experiences and such?
Thanks very much in advance!

Grandis.

IME in anyway you look at it people are always going to assume what works for them is all you need , theres not much to say that hasnt been said before for years in regards to keeping them.....theres always going to be a debate on what works best.

for me:

i run a high nutrient system that sees alot of meaty foods daily and alot of particulate foods fed all day and all evening.foods that are not cunsumed are filtered. i didnt always do this type of system , just the last few years.

you would be surpised how many " low light " zoanthids can be weaned onto strong lighting easily over time.

pests are always one of the biggest things to consider if going dedicated zoanthids is your goal.


strict qt should be done on all zoanthids(all coral really) for a few weeks.

no cuc here;)


i do not run a high bioload , i only keep the fish i need to protect my collection and benefit the tanks.

if you would like to see some pics of one of my tanks check out my bonsai display it is 25g zoanthid dominated high nutrient system.



just type in reefwars 25g bonsai in the search bar youll see it:)
cheers

[zoafarm]

Reefwars - are there certain zoas/palys that have similar likes and dislikes as they relate to growth. For example, do all zoas respond equally to the same light combinations? What about flow...do they all like turbulent flow? In my tank, certain zoas/palys accept meaty foods, while others do not. IMO, the one's that accept meaty foods seem to grow faster.
Are there some foods that seem very effective, where other do not.

Anything you might have learned in your experiences, would be greatly appreciated. Should I divide zoas/palys by certain types into different tanks based on similarities?

Thank you for your help!

[A. Grandis]

IME in anyway you look at it people are always going to assume what works for them is all you need , theres not much to say that hasnt been said before for years in regards to keeping them.....theres always going to be a debate on what works best.

Yep, that's it.

for me:

i run a high nutrient system that sees alot of meaty foods daily and alot of particulate foods fed all day and all evening.foods that are not cunsumed are filtered. i didnt always do this type of system , just the last few years.

How do you do that?
How often do you change water?
What are the best meaty and particulate foods IYE?

you would be surpised how many " low light " zoanthids can be weaned onto strong lighting easily over time.

I already know that part. I'm glad you found that out! Not too many people believe in that and they'll think you're crazy! LOL!!

pests are always one of the biggest things to consider if going dedicated zoanthids is your goal.

Yep!

strict qt should be done on all zoanthids(all coral really) for a few weeks.

Yep!

no cuc here;)


i do not run a high bioload , i only keep the fish i need to protect my collection and benefit the tanks.

Please tell us some advice about fishes you keep and their purposes.

if you would like to see some pics of one of my tanks check out my bonsai display it is 25g zoanthid dominated high nutrient system.


just type in reefwars 25g bonsai in the search bar youll see it:)
cheers
I'll try! Thanks for the feedback!


Some of my questions:
What temperature you run?
How often you do water changes and how much?
What's the S.G. you prefer?

Thanks again!

Grandis.

[reefwars]

Reefwars - are there certain zoas/palys that have similar likes and dislikes as they relate to growth. For example, do all zoas respond equally to the same light combinations? in regards to growth no i dont think so , maybe in the same tank if you were to split a colonie into 2 and place them side by side they would average out roughly the same , tank to tank will vary though for alot of reasons.


an example.

if 2 systems are tied in together , running the same sump,food,lights,flow and no bio load etc, growth will be similiar as the two pieces share the same everything always

take the same colonie and split in 2 into seperated tanks and they are going to share minor differences no matter how hard you try to copy eac
h tank.




What about flow...do they all like turbulent flow? zoanthids are very forgiving in regards to flow , as long as its not too muc or to little they will accept any type of flow you can give them, what works best would be impossible to actually tell, so its always safe to go with med to high flow.low flow presents its own issues.



In my tank, certain zoas/palys accept meaty foods, while others do not. IMO, the one's that accept meaty foods seem to grow faster.
Are there some foods that seem very effective, where other do not.oh now thats a good one , well for starters i feed anything that takes large foods usually mysis or cyclopeeze or whatever else is mixed up for the day and target fed.i also feed a variety of fauna marin products like ultraclam,seafan,min s also some freezdried cycloppeze , nls microreef this gets mixed up in a large jug refirdgereated and fed all week to the tanks.i dose phyto and zooplankton daily in high flow areas and the return chamber.

Anything you might have learned in your experiences, would be greatly appreciated. Should I divide zoas/palys by certain types into different tanks based on similarities?

start with a qt tank thats used only for qt , if your content on collecting your going to have to protect your investment, its alot easier with a small qt tank.

if you really want to be successfull in growng zoanthids then read all you can about diseases, pests. learn how to keep clean water and experiment to find what works for you and your system.

Thank you for your help!cheers!

[reefwars]

Some of my questions:
What temperature you run?
How often you do water changes and how much?
What's the S.G. you prefer?

Thanks again!

Grandis.

i run a high temp i should have noted that my temp sits at 79-80 overnight and up to 82-84 in the day.


i do very large water changes , average about 40% weekly , its a must in order to keep water quality from polluting(i also do nps corals) ive done my plumbing so water changes take about 2 mins tops via a valve;)

i stay at about 1.024 -1.025


my water parameters :


cal 440
alk 8-9
mg 1260
phos -nil(i no longer test for this)
nitrates -10ppm


i do not dose any trace elements just water changes , i do run a large aount of gfo aggressively and over powered skimmers that get cleaned every 2-3 days.

preferred lighting so far is 250w halide at 20000k


for fish in regards to dominated zoanthids i like and use:

yellow corris wrasse
melanarus wrasse
leopard wrasses
mandarins

these guys hunt all day and never accet a paycheque lol

[KafudaFish]

The point here isn't about how people are using those cartoon names, but how and with what intention those names were generated in the first place. Specifically talking about the "Japanese deep water" zoas.

I don't think KafudaFish was judging you in any way. I'm sure he will post if I'm wrong.

Grandis.

Correct I was simply pointing out that a person could get a "deepwater" zoa frag, think the lighting requirement was minimal and they melt on the reefer.



Perhaps you would like to take a look at this very interesting thread:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1867538

Have fun!

Grandis.

Man I was expecting an interesting thread and that one popped up! That guy has been rambling on for over two years now and is as clueless as the day water hit that tank.

[A. Grandis]

i run a high temp i should have noted that my temp sits at 79-80 overnight and up to 82-84 in the day.


i do very large water changes , average about 40% weekly , its a must in order to keep water quality from polluting(i also do nps corals) ive done my plumbing so water changes take about 2 mins tops via a valve;)

i stay at about 1.024 -1.025


my water parameters :


cal 440
alk 8-9
mg 1260
phos -nil(i no longer test for this)
nitrates -10ppm


i do not dose any trace elements just water changes , i do run a large aount of gfo aggressively and over powered skimmers that get cleaned every 2-3 days.

preferred lighting so far is 250w halide at 20000k


for fish in regards to dominated zoanthids i like and use:

yellow corris wrasse
melanarus wrasse
leopard wrasses
mandarins

these guys hunt all day and never accet a paycheque lol


Thanks very much for the answers!
MH are my favorite lights too!
Have you ever had any problems because of the GFO?
Some have reported mild bleaching after adding some GFO in the past.

Do you target feed?
Please list some of the best dry coral foods you've tried.
Do you use carbon? If so, what brand?

Thanks again,

Grandis.

[A. Grandis]

Correct I was simply pointing out that a person could get a "deepwater" zoa frag, think the lighting requirement was minimal and they melt on the reefer.

:thumbsup:


Man I was expecting an interesting thread and that one popped up! That guy has been rambling on for over two years now and is as clueless as the day water hit that tank.

LOL!!! :hb2:

Grandis.

[11purewater]

This may not help much ,but in my tank(high nutrient,stable PH at 8.3,and T-5 lighting)lighter centered zoos,gold, pinks, etc.like higher flow and light,Darker centers,reds blues and greens the opposite.works for me ,so I'll stick with it.This is not advice just an observation:)

[reefwars]

Thanks very much for the answers!
MH are my favorite lights too!
Have you ever had any problems because of the GFO?
Some have reported mild bleaching after adding some GFO in the past.

Do you target feed? yes , daily as im target feeding corals anyways, i also broadcast feed but thats more for other corals as well.
Please list some of the best dry coral foods you've tried.the best ive tried is what im using now which is fauna marin , they have alot of different things to experiment with.freeze dried cyclopeeze also gets its use as well with me.
Do you use carbon? If so, what brand?no i run large amounts of gfo, i use to run carbon but i gave up on it a few years ago, basically i dont trust it and do not find the need for it.....maybe in an sps dominant. i started the systems on gfo so cant compare it to corals that i have now but i can say for sure too much too fast is not good, and no sense running more gfo than your system needs.



Thanks again,

Grandis.

[KafudaFish]

Thank you Grandis because I love cake.

[reefwars]

This may not help much ,but in my tank(high nutrient,stable PH at 8.3,and T-5 lighting)lighter centered zoos,gold, pinks, etc.like higher flow and light,Darker centers,reds blues and greens the opposite.works for me ,so I'll stick with it.This is not advice just an observation:)


starting to sound like i should come see your tank maybe do some tradin ;PP

[A. Grandis]

Thank you Gradis because I love cake.

LOL!!
But seriously, I think your thread could help him in some.

Grandis.

[A. Grandis]

Originally Posted by A. Grandis
Thanks very much for the answers!
MH are my favorite lights too!
Have you ever had any problems because of the GFO?
Some have reported mild bleaching after adding some GFO in the past.

Do you target feed? yes , daily as im target feeding corals anyways, i also broadcast feed but thats more for other corals as well.
Please list some of the best dry coral foods you've tried. the best ive tried is what im using now which is fauna marin , they have alot of different things to experiment with.freeze dried cyclopeeze also gets its use as well with me.
Do you use carbon? If so, what brand? no i run large amounts of gfo, i use to run carbon but i gave up on it a few years ago, basically i dont trust it and do not find the need for it.....maybe in an sps dominant. i started the systems on gfo so cant compare it to corals that i have now but i can say for sure too much too fast is not good, and no sense running more gfo than your system needs.



Thanks again,

Grandis.

I also like Fauna Marin very much!

What is the average pH of your systems?
How often do you change bulbs?
Do you dose amino acids and vitamins?

Thanks,
Grandis.

[reefwars]

I also like Fauna Marin very much!

What is the average pH of your systems?
How often do you change bulbs?
Do you dose amino acids and vitamins?

Thanks,
Grandis.

i dont test for ph if i were dosing or using a calcium reactor i would be on it more, things are working now so if i mess with the ph it would risk ruining whats been created.
halides and t5's once a year, when using new bulbs i simply raise the height within a week or two they can go back down to normal height.im due for new bulbs and lights all around actually lol

i dose vit c ,cant say for sure if it helps or not but i can say it isnt hurting my system either:)

cheers!

[A. Grandis]

i dont test for ph if i were dosing or using a calcium reactor i would be on it more, things are working now so if i mess with the ph it would risk ruining whats been created.
halides and t5's once a year, when using new bulbs i simply raise the height within a week or two they can go back down to normal height.im due for new bulbs and lights all around actually lol

i dose vit c ,cant say for sure if it helps or not but i can say it isnt hurting my system either:)

cheers!

Thanks again, reefwars! :thumbsup:

Grandis.

[KafudaFish]

Hey Grandis I am sorry I left the n off in your name so I fixed it.
There really aren't too many reasons as to why hobbyists would conduct much in the way of scientific research to be honest.
1. Not too many people are going to set up a set of tanks and focus on a single variable like lighting 8 hours/day vs. two 4 hour photoperiods/day and compare those photo periods vs. growth rates.
2. We are constantly adding or subtracting from our tanks such as adding more frags etc. so that goes along with #1.
3. Often when there is an issue we use a multifaceted approach to problem solve because we want results vs. looking at cause and effect.
4. Overall we make general observations on our tanks which is great but we would have a difficult time in making correlation statements without specifically addressing the situation prior to and after the observation period.
I suppose some reefers would like to do this but for most this really isn't that interesting. We are interested in the beauty of the hobby. Think about which tanks get the most traffic on RC and specifically in this forum: i2as kass for one (and he deserves it) and I bet reefwars (and he deserves it as well) tank will also.
I think overall that as long as zoas and palys are within the normal ranges of water quality and chemistry, the physical environment such as water movement is too and we are going to be able to maintain those levels over time then just about any polyp should survive and reproduce. Having just stated that not every color morph is going to do well in our closed systems. Why? Aren't zoas just beginner corals? If so they should never melt for no reason. Right? There is another active thread, the will they live one, that someone made the statement, "I had a frag just die for no reason." I would think "the frag died and I could not figure out the cause" would be a better statement. If an organism has lived and then died due to old age that is pretty remarkable in nature.
Also I think that we fall into the trap of patterns. We humans love patterns and identify them pretty easily. Little kids can do and we reefers do it all the time with our aquascaping and coral placement in an attempt to make things look natural. Freshwater plant aquariums are a prime example of this and though they are beautiful works of art to me they look more like landscapes with fish flying through the air than an image from a river or a lake. Yes some do look natural but overall to me they look to be forced. I have worked in high quality waters systems and though they are a hotspot of diversity they aren't picture perfect. I have read that FW keepers are ahead of SW ones but I have seen many SW tanks that look like a picture from nature. Yano's sps tank is a perfect example. This is just my opinion and I have digressed obviously but my point does relate comes back to zoas. I think we often generalize and group zoas and figure what works for this morph has to work for the next one. They look the same right? So they should grow the same right? Obviously you cannot state that I had 10 polyps grow this month with morph A and morph B looks similar so I should get 10 from them.
In my current tank I have had one frag grow a single additional polyp. For 4 months it was a single and since August it has been only a double. Why? That is a very good question and now I know what I want to ramble on about in or around 10 days from now.
I hope my rambling did not go on too long for everyone but I find the why questions more enjoyable to think about.

It would be nice if some of the more experienced guys like Much, Charles, and Organism gave their thoughts as well (as long as they agree with my points 100%).

[A. Grandis]

No problem about the "n"! I didn't even noticed! :D

Some deep thoughts there! Indeed somehow enriching the thread...
I'll anxiously wait for our friends to show up!!! :beer::beer:
It's going to be great to know their thoughts too.

:bounce1::bounce2::bounce3:

Grandis.

[A. Grandis]

Again thanks to everyone that had input! When I get my frag system completely set up, I will try to document my observations, and follow up this post. I was kind of hoping others had thought the same thing, and recorded their findings.

Thanks Again, and Happy Reefing

Would be great to hear from you today, about what you already know with the current experiences. Perhaps we all could learn a bit more.

Grandis.

[zoafarm]

Wow! I looked away for a few hours, and a wealth of experiences come pouring in.

Reefwars - Great information! All of which will go into my handy dandy reference guide. Especially, the parts on feeding and quick water changes. :) Thank you for your time, and I look forward to learning more as this builds.

Grandis - Those questions were dead on, and turned the conversation into something very useful. Thanks

So, on the subject of lights the favorite seems to be 250w MH and T5. I personally started with T5s and switched to LEDs about 9 months ago with mixed results (zoas/palys growth slowed or stopped for about 3 to 6 months -- SPS went from slow to fast). Even now some of my zoas (most added after LEDs and came from MH or T5 systems) have very slow growth...while some of the others seem to be picking up speed. Has anyone switched from MH to LED, and if so, were there changes in growth rates over time?

[reefwars]

Wow! I looked away for a few hours, and a wealth of experiences come pouring in.

Reefwars - Great information! All of which will go into my handy dandy reference guide. Especially, the parts on feeding and quick water changes. :) Thank you for your time, and I look forward to learning more as this builds.

Grandis - Those questions were dead on, and turned the conversation into something very useful. Thanks

So, on the subject of lights the favorite seems to be 250w MH and T5. I personally started with T5s and switched to LEDs about 9 months ago with mixed results (zoas/palys growth slowed or stopped for about 3 to 6 months -- SPS went from slow to fast). Even now some of my zoas (most added after LEDs and came from MH or T5 systems) have very slow growth...while some of the others seem to be picking up speed. Has anyone switched from MH to LED, and if so, were there changes in growth rates over time?

we switched a while ago one of the halides for a radion on a shallow tank(12") it took a few months to actually adjust to the lighting , growth has exploded now though so its promising.

im about to change one of my display tanks to led now shortly, i expect growth to slow down alot as they adjust slowly to the par.


still though halides work great and i love them just so high maintannace and demanding lol

[zoafarm]

Out of curiosity, how high above the water levels did you put the Radion? Which Radion did you go with...XR30w or the pro version? I'm looking a the color range...they are different. I'm jumped on the DIY bandwagon, and need to add some new color ranges.

But since I decided to bypass the MH and go straight to LED, I feel even better about the move now. :) I still may need to tweek it a little, but it's nice to know that you are seeing positive results.

Earlier you mentioned you target feed all the time. Do you see faster growth from the meat eaters? Someone else mentioned they seem to get better grow from certain color zoa that are further from the light and vice versa. Do you observe anything close to this?

Also mentioned was "low light" zoas...can someone expand on this a little?

[reefwars]

Out of curiosity, how high above the water levels did you put the Radion? Which Radion did you go with...XR30w or the pro version? I'm looking a the color range...they are different. I'm jumped on the DIY bandwagon, and need to add some new color ranges.

But since I decided to bypass the MH and go straight to LED, I feel even better about the move now. :) I still may need to tweek it a little, but it's nice to know that you are seeing positive results.

Earlier you mentioned you target feed all the time. Do you see faster growth from the meat eaters? Someone else mentioned they seem to get better grow from certain color zoa that are further from the light and vice versa. Do you observe anything close to this?

Also mentioned was "low light" zoas...can someone expand on this a little?



we got the xr30w and started at 12" above water , although we didnt give them enough credit and i believe started to high...they really are quite strong.

on my new cube is going 2 x xr30w , now knowing what i know about the first one i should have an easier accimation this time around.

i do indeed heres a pic of a small candy apple redd frag eating mysis......there was one month i had 30 polyps grow from this type;)


http://i924.photobucket.com/albums/ad85/reefwars/25g%20bonzai%20tree%20tank/001.jpg

http://i924.photobucket.com/albums/ad85/reefwars/25g%20bonzai%20tree%20tank/002-1.jpg


im sure like any coral there are going to be some that prefer low light i have not seen a zoanthid that doesnt need light though.

[SIR PATRICK]

I have found this interesting-

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2222461

i have been waiting for more info to be added on the subject.

[A. Grandis]

I have found this interesting-

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2222461

i have been waiting for more info to be added on the subject.

Good to have you here!! How're you doing?

They've got a nice number of zoas per plug and a very healthy/colorful collection!
Their second link in the page you've suggested is not working. :(

I've also been waiting for more info to be added here.

Grandis.

[SIR PATRICK]

I didnt realize it, but the second link is the informative one....unfortunately it goes to a forum thats not supported by RC. I am guessing thats why the link is broken. I tried to find a link strait to Coral morphologic, but failed. Hope I didnt break any rules.

Its basically about no less than 4 undescribed zoa species found in florida.

It is my belief that there are several "strains" of zoas and palys that goes deeper than just zoas and palys. Alot of it breaks down anywhere from similar mouths, skirt structures, body densities, areas they came from, ect, ect.

One of these days, I am sure it will be broken down scientifically and profesionally. looks like Aquascappers is off to a good start on the subject, off in the florida waters. I would like to see it done in the indo, veitnam, fiji, solomon islands, and all the rest of the collecting areas also.

[SIR PATRICK]

Good to have you here!! How're you doing?

Grandis.

Ive been great! Glad to see ya still around also. I will be in and around more often, now that the chill has goten into the air.

[A. Grandis]

I didnt realize it, but the second link is the informative one....unfortunately it goes to a forum thats not supported by RC. I am guessing thats why the link is broken. I tried to find a link strait to Coral morphologic, but failed. Hope I didnt break any rules.

Its basically about no less than 4 undescribed zoa species found in florida.

It is my belief that there are several "strains" of zoas and palys that goes deeper than just zoas and palys. Alot of it breaks down anywhere from similar mouths, skirt structures, body densities, areas they came from, ect, ect.

One of these days, I am sure it will be broken down scientifically and profesionally. looks like Aquascappers is off to a good start on the subject, off in the florida waters. I would like to see it done in the indo, veitnam, fiji, solomon islands, and all the rest of the collecting areas also.

Oh ok, here is direct link for that article you're talking about:

http://www.hindawi.com/journals/jmb/2012/856079/

Yep, hope they could come to Hawaii too!! :D

Cheers,
Grandis.

[A. Grandis]

Ive been great! Glad to see ya still around also. I will be in and around more often, now that the chill has goten into the air.

That's great! :thumbsup:

Grandis.

[zoafarm]

Does anyone know if there is a list of zoas/palys by collected area of the world? Also, do some of the same zoas/palys show up in different parts of the world? For instance, would something like say "Fruit Loops", for names sake, show up on the Great Barrier Reef and also in the Caribbean? Sorry, if this sounds like a simpleton question, but I'm taking notes and separating pertinent information. Thanks to all of you for your expert knowledge and opinions.