Frag Prices??? what gives...

[jfeva0049]

Hey guys, i was looking around and was just wondering whats with the high price tag for so many frags now a days?? what do you believe has caused some of the (to me at least) outrageous price on most frags?? is it just a greed thing or has the market really increased that much in recent years.

i remember back when you could get a whole coral piece for 1/2 or 3/4 of what you can only get a small frag for now a days.


your thoughts........

[Spirofucci]

Supply and demand??? No one has a corner on the frag market. Pure capitalism, they are worth exactly what folks will pay for them.

That's my thought anyway.

[CRC88]

I'm both a victim and a perpetrator of these high frag prices. I went to That Pet Place in Lancaster this weekend and saw a few BEAUTIFUL frags I wanted. If they were cheaper, I would have bought all three, but instead I spent $55 on a small 1" frag because I thought it was beautiful!

From the stores perspective, most people have a budget they're going to spend. If they can sell you three frags for $20 each. Or one for $60, what do you think they're going to do?

[jfeva0049]

Supply and demand??? No one has a corner on the frag market. Pure capitalism, they are worth exactly what folks will pay for them.

That's my thought anyway.

yeah i hear you, but i cant help but get baffled by people asking for $50 plus for 1 single Zoa polyp. I guess i think thats were the greed thing come in.

I would have thought that with so many more people fraging, that in it self would bring the cost down. the more competition the more they must try and compete price wise. but im no economics major.

[Palting]

Greed definitly comes into the picture. A well as buyer gullibility. As the old saying goes, there is a sucker born every minute. I saw a store that had a tiny rock with a few zoa heads that was tagged at $60. It was supposeddly a "rare highly colored morph". Sure. Looked like a plain jane eagle eye zoa to me, and I have several colonies in my tank. I asked the proprietor if he would buy one of my rocks that had 3 times that number of the exact same heads of "rare highly colored morph" for $50, and he just looked at me. LOL!!!!

[jfeva0049]

I'm both a victim and a perpetrator of these high frag prices. I went to That Pet Place in Lancaster this weekend and saw a few BEAUTIFUL frags I wanted. If they were cheaper, I would have bought all three, but instead I spent $55 on a small 1" frag because I thought it was beautiful!

From the stores perspective, most people have a budget they're going to spend. If they can sell you three frags for $20 each. Or one for $60, what do you think they're going to do?

see i guess question the mark up % then, because maybe im naive but i cant see where it would cost more than $5-10 max to produce for any frag being sold for $60 retail.

[jerpa]

The rarity generally dictates the price with named or LE corals. Once they have been passed around to enough reefers the prices will fall. If it is a slow growing coral or a very fragile specimen that many lose then it will take longer. Sunset Montipora used to be expensive, now you can get frags for $15-$20.


I don't see how the retailers can be to blame here. They only charge what we are willing to pay. Direct your disappointment towards those buying corals at these prices. Add up all the costs you absorb because this is a hobby and figure out how much you actually spend to grow those frags. If it was such a moneymaker we would all have coral farms.

[jfeva0049]

i dont know this for a fact, so someone please correct me but i cant see where the high cost lies;
$1 tops for a plug
$3-5 for Cal,Alk & Mg
$2 for water & salt
$3 for energy to run pumps

so around $10 cost for a frag, why the need for 500% mark up???

[PAnanoguy]

CRC88, I was just there too last week. a lot of stuff I wanted but a little too pricey. what did you get?

[PAnanoguy]

i dont know this for a fact, so someone please correct me but i cant see where the high cost lies;
$1 tops for a plug
$3-5 for Cal,Alk & Mg
$2 for water & salt
$3 for energy to run pumps

so around $10 cost for a frag, why the need for 500% mark up???

as long as people are paying those prices they will stay that way. simple economics.

[jfeva0049]

as long as people are paying those prices they will stay that way. simple economics.

yeah prob true, but it still sucks.

[D-Nak]

Hey guys, i was looking around and was just wondering whats with the high price tag for so many frags now a days?? what do you believe has caused some of the (to me at least) outrageous price on most frags?? is it just a greed thing or has the market really increased that much in recent years.

i remember back when you could get a whole coral piece for 1/2 or 3/4 of what you can only get a small frag for now a days.


your thoughts........

I think you're going to need to give me specific examples of what you're talking about.

In my area, there's a lot of competition with the LFSs, as well as a lot of people privately selling frags, which bring the prices DOWN.

Aside from the rare LE corals and those that aren't widely distributed -- the red dragon is a good example -- everything has come down in price. With the economy the way it currently is, I see prices being lowered just to get someone to buy it.

Also, prices on frags have always varied tremendously, depending on who's selling and how much they have for sale.

[jfeva0049]

I don't see how the retailers can be to blame here. They only charge what we are willing to pay. Direct your disappointment towards those buying corals at these prices. Add up all the costs you absorb because this is a hobby and figure out how much you actually spend to grow those frags. If it was such a moneymaker we would all have coral farms.

i see that you have a frag tank, what would you estimate the out of pocket cost for you to produce a single frag?

i dont have a frag tank nor have i ever tried to so im curious to get an idea.

[jfeva0049]

I think you're going to need to give me specific examples of what you're talking about.

In my area, there's a lot of competition with the LFSs, as well as a lot of people privately selling frags, which bring the prices DOWN.

Aside from the rare LE corals and those that aren't widely distributed -- the red dragon is a good example -- everything has come down in price. With the economy the way it currently is, I see prices being lowered just to get someone to buy it.

Also, prices on frags have always varied tremendously, depending on who's selling and how much they have for sale.

i dont want call out anyone lfs or person here, but ive often seen many people post on the for sale here asking for $15-20+ per zoa polyp. like i said before maybe im just naive but i cant see where the money invested to produce that 1 polyp would warrant reselling it for $20+.

[D-Nak]

i dont want call out anyone lfs or person here, but ive often seen many people post on the for sale here asking for $15-20+ per zoa polyp. like i said before maybe im just naive but i cant see where the money invested to produce that 1 polyp would warrant reselling it for $20+.

You don't need to call anyone out, just give an example of the zoa polyp you're talking about.

The prices on zoas/palys are based on rarity, demand, care difficulty (some zoas/palys melt for no reason), growth rate, and the difficulty in fragging. Those zoas/palys that grow quickly and frag easily are more widely available, so they are cheaper.

For example, Tyree Space Monsters are still in the $25-$50 range per polyp. They are somewhat rare and don't grow quickly. They also don't frag very easily, and most important -- they are a good looking paly so the demand continues to be high.

Finally, prices always vary based on how many polyps are sold. As with any other commodity, the more purchased, the cheaper the per unit cost.

[Hudzon]

Just the fact that they could be slow growers and not frag well, have a high mortality rate. Say you have a Zoa that a lot of people like and would like a frag of now imagine that zoa produces only 1 or 2 new polyps a month and then imagine that they have a 50% failure rate when fragging, now how much would you sell them for ?

[sponger0]

i dont know this for a fact, so someone please correct me but i cant see where the high cost lies;
$1 tops for a plug
$3-5 for Cal,Alk & Mg
$2 for water & salt
$3 for energy to run pumps

so around $10 cost for a frag, why the need for 500% mark up???

Add the cost of tank to hold, sitting there for weeks if no one wants it, pay employees, electric bill, water bill, taxes and fees, shipping to get it to location, building rental or mortgage.

I can add more costs of operation if you would like. If it only costs you $10 to obtain a tank and run it, Id like to know your secret.

[jfeva0049]

Add the cost of tank to hold, sitting there for weeks if no one wants it, pay employees, electric bill, water bill, taxes and fees, shipping to get it to location, building rental or mortgage.

I can add more costs of operation if you would like. If it only costs you $10 to obtain a tank and run it, Id like to know your secret.

i see what your saying but i would imagine that a single 40 gal tank can easily hold up to 40 plus frags. so with that being said the cost would have to be divided up among the entire tank.

yes i understand that its not possible to set up a tank and get a frag for $10 but when you factor the amount of frags that can be held in a good size tank.

and to be honest, i understand the lfs needing to sell for more but im still shocked to see people selling personally for only 10% less of what the lfs is asking for it. i mean i have my tank going regardless and if i ever happen to frag anything i dont see myself trying to make 500% more than what it cost for me to do. to me its more of the joy of the hobby then it is trying to get rich off of.

[jfeva0049]

You don't need to call anyone out, just give an example of the zoa polyp you're talking about.

The prices on zoas/palys are based on rarity, demand, care difficulty (some zoas/palys melt for no reason), growth rate, and the difficulty in fragging. Those zoas/palys that grow quickly and frag easily are more widely available, so they are cheaper.

For example, Tyree Space Monsters are still in the $25-$50 range per polyp. They are somewhat rare and don't grow quickly. They also don't frag very easily, and most important -- they are a good looking paly so the demand continues to be high.

Finally, prices always vary based on how many polyps are sold. As with any other commodity, the more purchased, the cheaper the per unit cost.
thanks for the info. im still learning about corals and growth rate. i bought some rastas about 2 weeks ago and have seen no signs of new growth (sucks).

[sponger0]

And you just answered your own question. You are in it for the hobby, not to be rich. Guess what a business is trying to do? You got it. Make money. Its the whole reason they exist.

[jerpa]

i see that you have a frag tank, what would you estimate the out of pocket cost for you to produce a single frag?

i dont have a frag tank nor have i ever tried to so im curious to get an idea.

Well the lighting was $200. The tank was $125. Powerheads total were about $60. We will say 15% of my tank electric goes to the frag tank so 15/mth in electricity. Right now i have about 10 frags/ mini colonies that cost me a total of ~$300. Monthly maintenance vosts we will lowball at $5/month.

Setup and stocking cost: $685
Monthly cost: 20

Now take into account I've had the tank for three months and may be able to produce a decent frag from each coral I have, so 10 frags @ $20. Three frags pay for the upkeep of the last 3 months. The other 7 go towards setup cost. In a little over a year I will have paid the setup costs, assuming nothing breaks or needs replaced. So as a hobbyist I may be able to make a few hundred dollars a year.

Keep in mind if you are starting a setup as a business you will have to buy dosing equipment, skimmers, pumps, reactors etc. I "mooch" off my main system for many of those so I didnt include those in my assessment. As a business you would also have rebt, insurance, lights for a store, employees, heating and cooling the space you rent. The list goes on and on. As I said before look at how many people can actually make money off a niche hobby like ours. If coral farming led to the pot o gold at the end of a rainbow none of us would be employed elsewhere.

[dannyp02908]

agree with above with personal sales. When i accidentally frag something, i heal it in my frag tank and trade it for something new. Also, My frag tank was 10 dollars, uses a light i had retired and is plumbed in to my main sump. Therefore, it was a 10 dollar cost, maybe 3-5 a month for the light, and i dont maintain it as i only maintain my sump. Its possible.

[Patrick Cox]

Hey guys, i was looking around and was just wondering whats with the high price tag for so many frags now a days?? what do you believe has caused some of the (to me at least) outrageous price on most frags?? is it just a greed thing or has the market really increased that much in recent years.

i remember back when you could get a whole coral piece for 1/2 or 3/4 of what you can only get a small frag for now a days.


your thoughts........

Are you talking local sellers or online?

[KafudaFish]

Don't forget there are zoa color morphs (and I am sure other coral groups) that have been around for years (5 - 10), are dirt cheap such $1 per polyp that get a new bubble gum name and are now "new to the hobby" and sell for $50+ per polyp. People don't know they aren't new and decide they must have that so they buy it and the cycle continues.

If you are a business which are you going to do:

Sell a 50 polyp colony for $250 ($5 ea)
Sell fifty 1 polyp frags for $25 ea

In turn the hobbyist thinks $250 is more than I want to spend but I can do $25 and while I am at it I will buy this, this, and this. I did pretty well, I got 4 frags this weekend for $110 including tax.

I'm a boss.


On the other end, the hobbyist grows it out and sells it on RC or through a frag swap and charges $20 per polyp and the cycle continues. Eventually prices should fall but there is always a new group of reefers who must fill their tanks up NOW! Ever click on google and it takes gosh 5 seconds to get result? Too slow!

Because this is a hobby prices are free market and there is no Kelly Blue Book for us.

Another head scratcher is:

Go into the sell forum here and look what and how people are selling.

People can make a huge frag pack say 20 frags for $450 with shipping and no one buys it because ....... "that is expensive" even though some of those individual frags will sell for $40 or maybe $75 each like a Purple Monster.

Next reefer offers one or two frags for sale at $50 ea plus overnight for $150 and suddenly that sounds like a good deal.

Which one is the better deal though?

[jfeva0049]

i see alot of your guys points, maybe im just venting because i have been wanting to get some new coral lately but i just cant afford some of the prices or have a really hard time justifying spending that much on such a small piece.

i see this nice red zoa and ask "how much" and get told $25 per polyp and the damn frag has 4 polyps on it. no way i can afford to drop $100 on a 1" plug with 4 polyps on it.

[CRC88]

so around $10 cost for a frag, why the need for 500% mark up???

You'd be amazed at what other things you pay 500% markup for. It's all about what the market is and who will pay for it! Some big ones:

- Furniture
- Mattresses
- Beer & Wine at a restaurant (Soda even)
- Diamonds, Jewelry, Watches.

And these aren't cheap things either - makes our $50 frag seem reasonable!

PAnanoGuy - I got a small acro. Purple stalk, Florescent green polyps, and a faint green tint to the whole thing. It's absolutely gorgeous and I haven't seen anything like it - which is why I paid that absurdly high price for it. I'm still happy with it...it was my little treat after a long week at work!

[jerpa]

If you are patient you can still find cheap frags of nice corals. It will be off a hobbyist who has long since forgotten how much he paid for his colony and is just trimming the growth. Look on craigslist for those getting out to find good deals for larger colonies. Most importantly don't get caught up in all the named stuff. I look for corals that I can afford and look nice. I've got various frags of named corals for no more than $40 and most were $20 including shipping for 1+ inch fully encrusted SPS. I also have nameless $5 acros that are beginning to look just as nice as the named stuff.

[Landsailor]

Rare color morphs of animals, plants, or anything that reproduces is a self-collapsing pyramid scheme. You have to be at or near the top to make any money. The value of anything is rated at what someone is willing to pay. I've seen the Armor of God prices collapse just in the past year.

Remember, albino Burmese pythons used to be $3,000 snakes.

It's the market's fault. If we'd stop buying them, then they'd have to lower their prices.

Heck, I saw a shop in California off of I-15 (in Fontana?) that wanted $20 per polyp for Blow Pop zoas. I've previously seen them for $3 each or less if you buy a large colony.

[sponger0]

I would say the same goes for anything you buy. You buy dogs for certain colors, you pay money. You buy the nicer looking car. You pay for it. And so on...............

[ReeferKimberly]

I guess I am pretty lucky to live next door to a place with 5, 10, and 15 dollar frag tanks with hundreds of frags each. I have a montipora setosa I got for $5 that I see waaaaay overpriced everywhere else

[jfeva0049]

I guess I am pretty lucky to live next door to a place with 5, 10, and 15 dollar frag tanks with hundreds of frags each. I have a montipora setosa I got for $5 that I see waaaaay overpriced everywhere else

maybe i need to take a trip to rosevillie, lol.

[Landsailor]

I would say the same goes for anything you buy. You buy dogs for certain colors, you pay money. You buy the nicer looking car. You pay for it. And so on...............

That's not entirely correct. Yes, you can buy nicer cars, but they do not reproduce.

There were 1,935 Plymouth SuperBirds produced. If I buy one of them, I will not have five of them in a year just by performing regular maintenance.

[ReeferKimberly]

maybe i need to take a trip to rosevillie, lol.

Yeah, you do! It's Your Reef on Cirby.

[jfeva0049]

That's not entirely correct. Yes, you can buy nicer cars, but they do not reproduce.

There were 1,935 Plymouth SuperBirds produced. If I buy one of them, I will not have five of them in a year just by performing regular maintenance.

i agree, this is part of my point. the cost of reproduction does not match with the sale price.

[sponger0]

That's not entirely correct. Yes, you can buy nicer cars, but they do not reproduce.

There were 1,935 Plymouth SuperBirds produced. If I buy one of them, I will not have five of them in a year just by performing regular maintenance.

i agree, this is part of my point. the cost of reproduction does not match with the sale price.

You guys are missing the point. You want something nicer than your average purchase....pay up.

[ReeferKimberly]

You guys are missing the point. You want something nicer than your average purchase....pay up.

Or wait a few years.

[sponger0]

Or wait a few years.

And by then their will be better piece next to it.

[KafudaFish]

Wouldn't it be cool to be able to frag a fender and grow an entire car out?

[ReeferKimberly]

And by then their will be better piece next to it.

And the story goes on.

[KCombs]

Supply and demand??? No one has a corner on the frag market. Pure capitalism, they are worth exactly what folks will pay for them.

That's my thought anyway.

yeah I hardly berate anyones prices...if its too high they ain't movin it....

but yeah, I kinda get a lil peaved when some kid sells me a 1/2" stick for $20 ///part of me wants to say: "Really", the other part just wants to pay and sy "lesson learned"....

OTOH, I've generally made out like a bandit at the 4-5 frags swaps I've been to...
I thought one dudes frags were a lil small for a pre-sale, but I wasn't too mad, the frags are all alive.....

[D-Nak]

As the posters have summarized, complaining about the cost of coral is fine, so long as you know how these costs are derived -- and it goes waaay beyond the physical cost of an item. You can't break down how much it costs to simply by adding the costs to grow a piece of coral. It's like expecting to pay $5,000 for a new BMW since that's how much the parts cost. This doesn't take into account things like marketing costs, transportation, and R&D. I see this complaint all the time when people talk about high-end skimmers. The knock-off skimmers are going to be cheaper since they are typically made with cheaper materials and there was no R&D cost.

[KafudaFish]

As the posters have summarized, complaining about the cost of coral is fine, so long as you know how these costs are derived -- and it goes waaay beyond the physical cost of an item. You can't break down how much it costs to simply by adding the costs to grow a piece of coral. It's like expecting to pay $5,000 for a new BMW since that's how much the parts cost. This doesn't take into account things like marketing costs, transportation, and R&D. I see this complaint all the time when people talk about high-end skimmers. The knock-off skimmers are going to be cheaper since they are typically made with cheaper materials and there was no R&D cost.

Just curious but how much R&D ie money goes into developing a skimmer?

[GSMguy]

Just curious but how much R&D ie money goes into developing a skimmer?


You have to pay for the molds to be made they were $10,000 for a small skimmer and $15,000 for a big one a few years ago.

[KafudaFish]

Interesting. Thank you Nick.

[yogoshio]

And not to mention, in terms of stores, there is a LOT of loss in shipping that the store has to eat. And when you get into lineage corals like a true Red Dragon and others, the cost of lineage, growth, time, and effort all go into it.

No one pays just parts when working on a car, because labor is the most expensive part. Labor in coral farming is MASSIVE, as can be surmised by just how much owning a reef tank is. Consider all the difficulties for us times 300 and you'll be halfway there.

[GSMguy]

There is alot of R&D for the pumps too, as most skimmer companies mod a regular pump into their design, then you need molds for the new parts, needlewheels and volutes.

Then you have to pay for a huge order of them. Even companies like Avast that build here in the US go through a long testing process including beta testers and the like. It all adds up.

I wouldn't dare start a skimmer company with less than 50k.

[bezlar]

Find your local farmers. Most frags here $5 to $20 because so many are farming. Find your local reef club.

[meegwell]

Wouldn't it be cool to be able to frag a fender and grow an entire car out?

I would frag my wife's diamond ring.

[ingtar_shinowa]

Living in California you can't complain. There are thousands of reef keepers and hundreds of reef clubs. You need to get connected. I have to pay shipping on top of frag prices.

[Mouse]

Something gets me on the logic of those 'supporting' the $40+ frags, you all keep saying 'rare' when they are the same frags everyone else is selling. If you go to a store or see someone selling frags, how many are they selling for $5-$10 ? the more expensive ones far outnumber the cheaper ones for sale, shouldnt the 'common' ones far outnumber the others??

[aandfsoccr04]

You have to pay to play. If you want the more expensive stuff in your tank, then it will cost you. You can frag it in a year or two and make your money back. If you want doo doo brown palys from the 5 dollar rack, then that's cool too.

[sponger0]

You have to pay to play. If you want the more expensive stuff in your tank, then it will cost you. You can frag it in a year or two and make your money back. If you want doo doo brown palys from the 5 dollar rack, then that's cool too.

I want my tank to be all doo doo brown colors. Yes!!!

Nice way to put it haha

[sslak]

When you talk about COST to produce a frag, you all seem to be forgetting about TIME.

It's not like these frags just pop out hundreds in a week. I get a few frags every few months, then again I don't have a huge tank with giant colonies. I have 5 or 6 softball sized colonies.

[sponger0]

When you talk about COST to produce a frag, you all seem to be forgetting about TIME.

It's not like these frags just pop out hundreds in a week. I get a few frags every few months, then again I don't have a huge tank with giant colonies. I have 5 or 6 softball sized colonies.

Very true. When it comes to SPS, they wont be fragged in a few weeks.

Softies are different. Your more likely to get more frags over the course of the year as opposed to SPS.

[jinks]

Something gets me on the logic of those 'supporting' the $40+ frags, you all keep saying 'rare' when they are the same frags everyone else is selling. If you go to a store or see someone selling frags, how many are they selling for $5-$10 ? the more expensive ones far outnumber the cheaper ones for sale, shouldnt the 'common' ones far outnumber the others??

Why would you invest the time and money into something that returns less for the same effort. They might not be rare in the hobby because we focus on these coral but it was rare when they pulled it from the wild.

[kad1979]

Interesting topic as I am just getting back into this hobby after 15 years away. I too have been shocked by prices. That said, I have been able to find great deals. Shop around. I have had better luck at a pet store in my area with a salt water section. The salt only LFS seem to be the most expensive IMO. Perhaps because people perceive the quality to be better at salt only LFS?

[sponger0]

Interesting topic as I am just getting back into this hobby after 15 years away. I too have been shocked by prices. That said, I have been able to find great deals. Shop around. I have had better luck at a pet store in my area with a salt water section. The salt only LFS seem to be the most expensive IMO. Perhaps because people perceive the quality to be better at salt only LFS?

Its like any specialty shop. If a store specializes in something, they tend to have a higher price.

[ingtar_shinowa]

Lol, I don't think thats fair. If I was in business, I know its easier to sell pretty zoas then ugly ones. I'm not even going to fill my frag tanks with brown zoas. The nature of Murphy's Law confirms that the prettiest zoas grow the slowest in most accounts.

[sponger0]

Lol, I don't think thats fair. If I was in business, I know its easier to sell pretty zoas then ugly ones. I'm not even going to fill my frag tanks with brown zoas. The nature of Murphy's Law confirms that the prettiest zoas grow the slowest in most accounts.

Not when its something like Darth Mauls when its like $60 for 5 polyps

[Poomba]

Problem with Darth Mauls is that they LOVE to melt.

[ingtar_shinowa]

in march I bought 3 polyps for 18 bucks (plus shipping) now i have 4.

Alot of issue with Z's and P's is people trying to 'make back their money' So as soon as their 120 dollar a polyp red hornet they divide each new polyp to sell it, when if the wait a few months they can get some real growth. Now red hornets are 15-30 a poylp because people stopped instantly dividing their frags.

Take a bowser paly though, and those are still high after several years because they are super melters. If you invest 300 for 3 polyps and after a year you have 4, then that polyp melts after fraging. you have to wait another YEAR for your next chance. Some polyps are like that.

On the flip side, if people waited until all their colonies were 300 polyps the prices may be even higher.

[D-Nak]

Something gets me on the logic of those 'supporting' the $40+ frags, you all keep saying 'rare' when they are the same frags everyone else is selling. If you go to a store or see someone selling frags, how many are they selling for $5-$10 ? the more expensive ones far outnumber the cheaper ones for sale, shouldnt the 'common' ones far outnumber the others??

No. Not if you're trying to run a successful business. I had a conversation with a LFS owner and he put it simply... "would you rather sell one $50 frag to one person, or five $10 frags to five people? It takes a lot longer to sell those 5 frags."

A lot of people enjoy looking at rare stuff, but they don't necessarily buy it. How many times have you told a buddy that the store was cool but they didn't have much to look at? Versus "yah that store was cool, you have to see their display tank!"

[ReeferKimberly]

The store I go to sells the "5 for $10 instead of the 1 for $50". There are 5 other stores I could go to....but guess which one I go to? The one with the cheap frags. And because I go there he also gets my regular business for light bulbs, food, ect ect. And since his prices are so cheap, people are gonna come in again, and again and again. I have bought probably 25-30 frags from this store in the last 6 months. And they are gonna outgrow my tank! Then he will get my business when I need a new one too! He is not greedy and he will always get my business above others, every. single. time.

[Jester75]

The store I go to sells the "5 for $10 instead of the 1 for $50". There are 5 other stores I could go to....but guess which one I go to? The one with the cheap frags. And because I go there he also gets my regular business for light bulbs, food, ect ect. And since his prices are so cheap, people are gonna come in again, and again and again. I have bought probably 25-30 frags from this store in the last 6 months. And they are gonna outgrow my tank! Then he will get my business when I need a new one too! He is not greedy and he will always get my business above others, every. single. time.

Ditto, only I dont have that guy where I live....
:sad1:

[D-Nak]

The store I go to sells the "5 for $10 instead of the 1 for $50". There are 5 other stores I could go to....but guess which one I go to? The one with the cheap frags. And because I go there he also gets my regular business for light bulbs, food, ect ect. And since his prices are so cheap, people are gonna come in again, and again and again. I have bought probably 25-30 frags from this store in the last 6 months. And they are gonna outgrow my tank! Then he will get my business when I need a new one too! He is not greedy and he will always get my business above others, every. single. time.

While I understand what you're saying, simply put, you spent $300 in his store on frags in 6 months. The LFS only only needs to sell 6 of the $50 colonies to make the same $300 that you spent in 6 months, which could easily be done in 1 month.

I can tell you that we had a store that only sold $5, $10, and $20 frags. It was a terrible business model since there wasn't enough profit to keep it afloat.

Of course, the best LFS has a mix of both cheap and expensive coral to meet the demands of all customers, but my point is that in order to thrive as a business you need to sell items with a higher profit margin than the nickel-and-dime $5-$10 frags.

I think this is where the hobbyist seller can fill the niche. This person sells the $5-$10 frags, and uses that money to buy colonies at the LFS. At least that's what I do!

[D-Nak]

Ditto, only I dont have that guy where I live....
:sad1:

You don't have that guy, because if you did, the store would be out of business in 6 months.

Okay, kidding aside, my apologies -- I just get a little irked when people complain about coral prices and fail to realize that people are running a business TO MAKE MONEY. I'm sure the store that Reefer Kimberly visits sells more than the $10 frags.

[ReeferKimberly]

He does sell more than $10 frags. But he has waaaaay more of the less expensive ones available. I got a 4 headed hammer for $5 few weeks ago (very small heads and that's not something he would normally have, but still). I always say I don't know how he does it. But he does and there are always several people there. Anyone who has been to Your Reef in Roseville can tell you I am not lying. And he has been around and going strong for 8 years. He also sells online and those prices are higher. But John has 5, 10 and 15 sections with a hundred frags in each one. There are maybe 100 frags total of anything higher. Then he has larger pieces available to people with more money. Saw a $350 duncan colony yesterday. He mixes it up, probably why he is still in business. I can tell you if he didn't exist I would have never gotten into this hobby.

And yes, it took 6 months for him to make that money off me, but in that time I replaced 6 T5 bulbs, bought roti,phyto and oyster feast twice, many many packs of frozen foods, fish, ect. Like I said, his cheap frags brings my money in for everything else as well.

[D-Nak]

He does sell more than $10 frags. But he has waaaaay more of the less expensive ones available. I got a 4 headed hammer for $5 few weeks ago (very small heads and that's not something he would normally have, but still). I always say I don't know how he does it. But he does and there are always several people there. Anyone who has been to Your Reef in Roseville can tell you I am not lying. And he has been around and going strong for 8 years.

It sounds like he's running a good business. Like I said, my point is that businesses don't make much money off of the cheap frags. Ultimately the goal by offering these is to get you into the store and buy other things. Eventually, one of those $50 pieces may catch your eye, and may be tempted to buy it.

But to bring this back on topic, I've actually seen a DECLINE in prices in the past 20 or so years I've been in the hobby. When I had my first reef tank many years ago, folks couldn't keep SPS alive. Those that they were able to keep are extremely common now, and are CHEAP.

Every hobby will always have the "new and shiny" version. In our case, it's things like designer clowns or newly introduced coral (think rainbow acans a few years ago). These always command a higher price.

It seemed to me that the OP was complaining about prices when the OP didn't have enough knowledge to back the statement. I think we've all done a good job to educate the OP on the reasons why a particular coral costs what it does.

[Jester75]

You don't have that guy, because if you did, the store would be out of business in 6 months.

Okay, kidding aside, my apologies -- I just get a little irked when people complain about coral prices and fail to realize that people are running a business TO MAKE MONEY. I'm sure the store that Reefer Kimberly visits sells more than the $10 frags.

I understand what you mean. Having worked in a store, particulary the saltwater department, I understand that they need to make money and the margins can be slim. But, like you said above, a 'good' store has a mix of both, not just everything is $60-$70 and up.

[sponger0]

The store I go to sells the "5 for $10 instead of the 1 for $50". There are 5 other stores I could go to....but guess which one I go to? The one with the cheap frags. And because I go there he also gets my regular business for light bulbs, food, ect ect. And since his prices are so cheap, people are gonna come in again, and again and again. I have bought probably 25-30 frags from this store in the last 6 months. And they are gonna outgrow my tank! Then he will get my business when I need a new one too! He is not greedy and he will always get my business above others, every. single. time.

From the sounds of it, without seeing his store, it sounds like he has been in the biiz long enough to propagate his own corals and sell them cheap. In order to do that, you really need to be in it for a long time


It sounds like he's running a good business. Like I said, my point is that businesses don't make much money off of the cheap frags. Ultimately the goal by offering these is to get you into the store and buy other things. Eventually, one of those $50 pieces may catch your eye, and may be tempted to buy it.

+1

[sponger0]

I just get a little irked when people complain about coral prices and fail to realize that people are running a business TO MAKE MONEY. I'm sure the store that Reefer Kimberly visits sells more than the $10 frags.


I feel the same way when I see these kinds of threads. The hobbyist complains about prices and forgets this store owner isnt acting as a hobbyist. They are acting as a business owner.

You think they are happy when people come in, look and turn back to the door?

[kevin32]

He does sell more than $10 frags. But he has waaaaay more of the less expensive ones available. I got a 4 headed hammer for $5 few weeks ago (very small heads and that's not something he would normally have, but still). I always say I don't know how he does it. But he does and there are always several people there. Anyone who has been to Your Reef in Roseville can tell you I am not lying. And he has been around and going strong for 8 years. He also sells online and those prices are higher. But John has 5, 10 and 15 sections with a hundred frags in each one. There are maybe 100 frags total of anything higher. Then he has larger pieces available to people with more money. Saw a $350 duncan colony yesterday. He mixes it up, probably why he is still in business. I can tell you if he didn't exist I would have never gotten into this hobby.

And yes, it took 6 months for him to make that money off me, but in that time I replaced 6 T5 bulbs, bought roti,phyto and oyster feast twice, many many packs of frozen foods, fish, ect. Like I said, his cheap frags brings my money in for everything else as well.


Can you PM me the online website for that store. Would love to check it out.

[ReeferKimberly]

Can you PM me the online website for that store. Would love to check it out.

Sure like I said the prices online are higher because he lists the more expensive ones online and doesn't seem to bother with the $5 ones, but I just checked and found plenty of $10-20 ones in his online store as well.

[coralsnaked]

Check out some of the auctions from our sponser AAF austin aqua farms. Buy in bulk if you can outbid the other guys and save the freight. They are always wysiwyg. They always have acans at bargain proces. This week they have nice FL ricord and a few zoa frags, and a lot of othe rhigher priced items.

[Mouse]

OK, So, the working theory is that as people buy,grow, frag and sell they will become cheaper as the market gets full. But, where are these corals from 5-10 years ago? They weren't all brown back then, Is it simply that it isn't worth a persons time to frag and sell 'cheap'(or should I say 'common') corals? I would much rather start with a bunch of $1 - $2 SPS frags to keep starting costs down while adjusting to the steep learning curve, then dive into the $40 ones when the tank is solid.

[sponger0]

OK, So, the working theory is that as people buy,grow, frag and sell they will become cheaper as the market gets full. But, where are these corals from 5-10 years ago? They weren't all brown back then, Is it simply that it isn't worth a persons time to frag and sell 'cheap'(or should I say 'common') corals? I would much rather start with a bunch of $1 - $2 SPS frags to keep starting costs down while adjusting to the steep learning curve, then dive into the $40 ones when the tank is solid.

Cause if you go aww damn over nice sps pieces, then you know the stuff sells better than crack lmao

[guidedbyechoes]

Granted I've never purchased sps the most I've paid for a coral is 25 dollars, and that was for a 8 heads purple and green frogspawn and 20 for a 6 headed all purple frogspawn.

[Curious George]

I don't do corals anymore. I just have fish. But when I did, I buddied up with a group of guys in my area to trade coral frags. And by extension, we would frequent a local fish club to do the same at monthly meetings.

There's always the "Wowwy Dowy Super Vampire Purple Glowing Hyper Coral" of the day that fetches a $100 for a frag because it has a small green dot in the middle of the polyp where the average is blue, but budget trading can fill a beautiful tank fast and on the cheap.

just say'n

[D-Nak]

OK, So, the working theory is that as people buy,grow, frag and sell they will become cheaper as the market gets full. But, where are these corals from 5-10 years ago? They weren't all brown back then, Is it simply that it isn't worth a persons time to frag and sell 'cheap'(or should I say 'common') corals? I would much rather start with a bunch of $1 - $2 SPS frags to keep starting costs down while adjusting to the steep learning curve, then dive into the $40 ones when the tank is solid.

Check with your local reef club. Most clubs have frag swaps, and they have a list of corals that don't qualify for the swap. These typically are the most common corals -- green star polyps, anthelia, xenia, mushrooms. In terms of SPS frags, some that qualify are bali slimer, pink birdsnest, and many monti caps and digitata. They've been around the longest, grow the fastest, and many people give them away when fragging.

[sail33]

as long as people are paying those prices they will stay that way. simple economics.

Have you noticed how many LFS's are going out of business? My favorite in St. Pete is having problems for one main reason. So many people are getting out of reefing. My LFS is loaded with used skimmers, tanks, sumps, lights...

Plus I haven't seen anyone mention or factor in heavy losses due to anything from a power outage to employee error. No mention of rent, taxes, employee benefits.... I've owned plenty of businesses and there are always people who want to look in my wallet. They are certain that I am living "the high life" at the rates I charge. Enough money might go through my hands to enjoy that but I don't get to keep it.

I'm not a supporter of overcharging. I think that those who do have an overdeveloped sense of entitlement. Stop buying from them. Search and find that LFS that you can trust. They do exist.

[PAnanoguy]

Have you noticed how many LFS's are going out of business? My favorite in St. Pete is having problems for one main reason. So many people are getting out of reefing. My LFS is loaded with used skimmers, tanks, sumps, lights...

Plus I haven't seen anyone mention or factor in heavy losses due to anything from a power outage to employee error. No mention of rent, taxes, employee benefits.... I've owned plenty of businesses and there are always people who want to look in my wallet. They are certain that I am living "the high life" at the rates I charge. Enough money might go through my hands to enjoy that but I don't get to keep it.

I'm not a supporter of overcharging. I think that those who do have an overdeveloped sense of entitlement. Stop buying from them. Search and find that LFS that you can trust. They do exist.

you bring up another good point. I think most people that are seeing high prices are in an area that is lacking competition. For example, I live in York PA and there is really only one place in about a 60 mile radius that sells coral so they can set the price as they wish. Its a good store and they have some good stuff but the prices reflect the lack of competition. also this store is huge and competing with them would be next to impossible so no other LFS would ever stand a chance. I would love to own my own saltwater LFS but I think I would be doomed before I ever started. I would imagine the start up and overhead for something like that would make your head spin.

[Breadman03]

i dont know this for a fact, so someone please correct me but i cant see where the high cost lies;
$1 tops for a plug
$3-5 for Cal,Alk & Mg
$2 for water & salt
$3 for energy to run pumps

so around $10 cost for a frag, why the need for 500% mark up???

Don't forget business overhead such as rent, insurance, accounting, etc. Also, how much shrink occurs will be a factor in operating costs.

[yogoshio]

Don't forget business overhead such as rent, insurance, accounting, etc. Also, how much shrink occurs will be a factor in operating costs.

:beer:

Anyone that thinks pricing is just on the item, you're fooling yourself. Think about how with one good sized tank your utilities are almost 2x more than your neighbors? Well, now multiply that times 50, because commercial zoned properties pay WAY more for energy,phone, and internet just because they're commercial.

Following some of the "business models" put forth on here I'd LOVE to see how long some of you are in business, lol...
You can't give stuff away at cost and still make a living.

[jfeva0049]

if i were to post these items at this price would you say they are priced high or priced just right????

2 polyps of blue agave $ 70
2 polyps of red halo PE $ 70
3 polyps of paradise zoas $ 110
2 polyps of my clementines $ 70

[jkcoon]

if i were to post these items at this price would you say they are priced high or priced just right????

2 polyps of blue agave $ 70
2 polyps of red halo PE $ 70
3 polyps of paradise zoas $ 110
2 polyps of my clementines $ 70

I'd call it molestation... cuz if you change it just a bit its a whole different stroy

2 polyps of blue zoa $ 5
2 polyps of red zoas $ 5
3 polyps of misc zoas $ 10
2 polyps of orange zoas $ 7

it never ceases to amaze me how once a "fancy name" is attached to a zoa people think they are worth an arm & leg... cracks me up... most supply and demand in this trade is artificial in nature.

[jfeva0049]

I'd call it molestation... cuz if you change it just a bit its a whole different stroy

2 polyps of blue zoa $ 5
2 polyps of red zoas $ 5
3 polyps of misc zoas $ 10
2 polyps of orange zoas $ 7

it never ceases to amaze me how once a "fancy name" is attached to a zoa people think they are worth an arm & leg... cracks me up... most supply and demand in this trade is artificial in nature.

ok see, i agree. and this is what i am referring too when i started this thread.

[usmc121581]

:beer:

Anyone that thinks pricing is just on the item, you're fooling yourself. Think about how with one good sized tank your utilities are almost 2x more than your neighbors? Well, now multiply that times 50, because commercial zoned properties pay WAY more for energy,phone, and internet just because they're commercial.

Following some of the "business models" put forth on here I'd LOVE to see how long some of you are in business, lol...
You can't give stuff away at cost and still make a living.

You forgot shipping, the price of coral/fish is cheap when you look at cost. When you loo at how much LFS pay for shipping these animals you would be shocked.

[ingtar_shinowa]

if i were to post these items at this price would you say they are priced high or priced just right????

2 polyps of blue agave $ 70
2 polyps of red halo PE $ 70
3 polyps of paradise zoas $ 110
2 polyps of my clementines $ 70

I'd say those prices are pretty on par. That being said, I'm waiting for them to go down. Actually the clementine price is pretty good. I want some of those bad.

[jfeva0049]

You forgot shipping, the price of coral/fish is cheap when you look at cost. When you loo at how much LFS pay for shipping these animals you would be shocked.

no, im saying if I were to sale these from my tank for this price would you think it was a fair price...?

im not referring to LFS on this, more so on personal reefer selling.

[D-Nak]

I'd call it molestation... cuz if you change it just a bit its a whole different stroy

2 polyps of blue zoa $ 5
2 polyps of red zoas $ 5
3 polyps of misc zoas $ 10
2 polyps of orange zoas $ 7

it never ceases to amaze me how once a "fancy name" is attached to a zoa people think they are worth an arm & leg... cracks me up... most supply and demand in this trade is artificial in nature.

Here we go again.:deadhorse1:

With any collectable, folks have their tolerances. For me, the zoas/palys top price is $50/head. Some people scratch their heads and think "holy smokes, that guy is crazy to spend that much money" but that's just how hobbies are. Some people keep coral while other people collect them, searching out rare pieces like they would a rare coin or stamp.

For example, someone may have a '65 mustang (I'm making this up BTW and I know nothing about classic cars, so bare with me) and may spend $100 a hubcap for the OEMs and I might think they're crazy when they can use a $10 hubcap, or no hubcap at all for that matter. What I don't know is how rare they are -- that for the '65 only a certain model had those particular hubcaps, and the manner in which they were made, made them very fragile, so one in good condition is worth a lot of money -- and the demand is high, so it drives up the price. I would need to learn all of that.

Since I don't know much about mustangs, I'm not going to make a big stink about a $100 hubcap. This is EXACTLY what I see happening when people complain about prices in this hobby. If you're not educated about a piece of coral -- particularly zoas/palys -- then it's best to educate yourself and only chime in when you can add value. Otherwise, saying stuff like "well that other orange zoa is only $1 how come that VDM isn't?" only does two things -- makes you look stupid and makes people turn a deaf ear.

[ReeferKimberly]

no, im saying if I were to sale these from my tank for this price would you think it was a fair price...?

im not referring to LFS on this, more so on personal reefer selling.

From a hobby tank those prices would cause me to upchuck ;)

And from a store, well, I wouldn't go back to that store.

[coder35]

some sps frag can be very expensive.
for example. 1" of the purple dragon sps could be right around $250 a frag

[jkcoon]

Here we go again.:deadhorse1:

This is EXACTLY what I see happening when people complain about prices in this hobby. If you're not educated about a piece of coral -- particularly zoas/palys -- then it's best to educate yourself and only chime in when you can add value. Otherwise, saying stuff like "well that other orange zoa is only $1 how come that VDM isn't?" only does two things -- makes you look stupid and makes people turn a deaf ear.

Oh, i'm sorry I didn't realize someone as profoundly educated as yourself was monitoring this thread.. my bad :rolleyes: However, to imply that I'm somehow uneducated simply because I choose not to buy-in to the the BS that once someon puts a name on a coral that is is somehow worth exponentially more money, is BS. You might want to reassess your "education" if you think that a coral has some specific value simply because someone told you it does... guess it just goes to show some people really do have more money than brains....

appreciate the mud/insult slinging - as you can see, I'm quite capable of the same - but what do you say we stick with being civil.. its probably better for all involved

[ingtar_shinowa]

Oh snap someone call the waaaambulence. These threads are just silly. Don't complain about prices, just go get your brown button olyps and Eagle eye annd call it a day. D-nak is spot on. Collectors pay for specialty items. I still hunt for good deals, but i'll pay 30-50 a polyp if its something I have been looking for. I remember when hornets were 50-150 pp I got a pack of purples and reds with a couple other high ends for 20-35 a polyp and was excited. Single polyps though have a tendency to melt and a couple weeks later all i had was CAR and Captain Americas. I still feel good about it.

[mussel and hate]

These threads are silly but not for the reasons you suggest. Silly reefers believe corals that grow more slowly should command a higher market value. Silly reefers believe marketing R&D and branding increase the value of a frag. It's silly that CITES import restrictions have been totally overlooked, but that makes it even more silly that reefers in California pay more than I do in Canada.

What makes frags expensive is that some reefers are suckers. The key is community. Buy locally cultured frags, and get to know the reefer/s you buy from. Check craigslist or kijiji and your local reef club/web forum. If you do it right you can get expert advice to go with your frags and maybe make some frags yourself to pass on.

[nrbelk]

Whoa! corals have names? How does anyone remember all these 4 word names? I'm going to make one called whammin slammin jammin crammin watermelon starbursts. Or is that already taken?

[mussel and hate]

I kind of like the existing taxonomical names. Perhaps if they were called by genus, species and colour/pattern the prices would come into line ;)

[sirreal63]

These threads are silly but not for the reasons you suggest.
What makes frags expensive is that some reefers are suckers. The key is community. Buy locally cultured frags, and get to know the reefer/s you buy from. Check craigslist or kijiji and your local reef club/web forum. If you do it right you can get expert advice to go with your frags and maybe make some frags yourself to pass on.

+1, and to add, I have no problem with people charging crazy prices for corals, the problem is there are people uneducated enough to pay for it. Paying stupid prices for something does not make you smarter, it makes you the problem, not the solution. If no one paid a ridiculous price for a named coral, the prices would drop. Share your corals with your friends and don't fall into the named high priced corals trap. If you want to buy an ORA coral, do it, but then share your frags with people you know, you may find they will do the same with you when they get something cool in. A few months ago I bought 18 coral frags for $140.00 simply by looking what was available in our local club and all but one frag was at least 2" long.

[Dave & Monica]

My advice for cheaper corals is first look to your local clubs, and market. This means using Craig's List, and other forums for hobbyist selling corals. Trade, Trade, and Trade. Buy into one type of coral (Superman Monti for example), grow it out, and use this to trade to get corals you don't have. Be flexible, and look for color, not for name. Red, Blue, and yellow colors are harder to get... who cares if it's softie, LPS, or SPS. Another good way is watch out for folks who move, or get out of the hobby. Often you can buy colonies for 20-50 bucks. Lastly, and it kind of ties into the first, is look into the pay it forward program (DTBC), which is a program where you get a coral, grow it out, and pass it to two other reeferes. Good luck.

[dc]

Ok kids party's over.