Hair Algae is winning. I need one last stand.

[Jeff000]

I've been fighting a losing battle for a few weeks on hair algae. Lots of manual removal, water changes, making sure I don't over feed, less lights on time.
It's getting to the point where it seems like I remove some one day and the next it's back plus 10% more.

What do I need to buy that will eat it? even just eat it when it is short after manual removal?
I'm tempted to go and buy every turbo snail and hermit I can find in the city and see what they can do. I can't find a sea hair anywhere.

Its' starting to get to the point where it's killing coral. I can't figure out what would be causing this. Nothing changed in the tank.

I have a fox face, purple tang, chevron tang, gold flake, and clowns. And I have an assortment of snails and hermits, but not nearly enough it seems.

[sponger0]

Have tried phosphate control? You really cant rely on critters eating it. Thats a hit or miss

[brettinteriors]

Phosphate e and gfo :)

[ccloveraz]

I battled hair alge for a looong time. Tried all the different critters to remove it, manual removal, water changes, nothing worked.

I finally tried vodka dosing and knocked it out in a few weeks. Just find a good formula for dosing and stick to it exactly...

[Orm Embar]

I'd try vinegar/vodka and GFO

[sail33]

I'd consider searching for the algae scrubber basics thread. Make it grow where you want and starve out the rest.

Also check threads for hydrogen peroxide treatment.

Cut back on food, skim more, CLEAN SKIMMER CUP daily. It will work better. If using filter socks, change em out every two days.
Lots of water changes.

http://www.reefcleaners.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=54&Itemid=81

Best of luck

Then you decide what's best. But I agree. critters can't eat that much.

[Cmbtmedic1]

Looks like green Charlie has made into my perimeter as well...maybe it's time for wille Pete .

[masonicman]

Had a real bad out break in my daughter's 10 gallon. All parameters were with in reasonable numbers. After about a month of fighting. I bought a sea hare. I devoired the hair algea to a point to where I had to remove it because there was nothing else for it to eat. Took it back to my LFS for credit.

[NYCBOB]

have u tried the dolabella sea hare. this is the only sea hare i know of that eats hair algae.

[DIYnitemare]

Prodibio products do wonders and really help nullify algae and nutrients in the tank. once you are algae free you could stop using if you are afraid of having too low of nutrients in the tank.

[staindsoul]

Do you run ro/di? Are the filters old? Tds meter?

[ReefUrchin]

Is that all the fish? Whats your tank size and equipment list? I assume your running a skimmer?

[swcc]

Its' starting to get to the point where it's killing coral. I can't figure out what would be causing this. Nothing changed in the tank.



it is simple.... your export has been suffering and your experiencing the law of conservation of mass. So, yes something has changed in the tank... the buildup of nutrients not being exported has resulted in nuisance algae. what to do... export more... over time nutrient reduce and algae goes away. So, learning experience is you need to remove more detritus consistently and not collect it....this is what happens if you don't export enough.

[Jeff000]

Is that all the fish? Whats your tank size and equipment list? I assume your running a skimmer?


~250 gallons.
Bubble king skimmer, cleaned daily. I have a CA reactor, but don't run any other reactors.
I do ~10% water every week. but have been doing more like 20% since the algae.

[swcc]

~250 gallons.
Bubble king skimmer, cleaned daily. I have a CA reactor, but don't run any other reactors.
I do ~10% water every week. but have been doing more like 20% since the algae.

Well, water changes are fine...but reality is you need to suck out detritus as well as skim better.

[ReefUrchin]

I would probably add some filetr socks, then, clean the sand bed, depending on the depth will dictate how, and maybe a HOB filter. Now, every time you walk by the tank, stir it, blast some rocks with a power head. For deep sand beds and untouched sand beds in general, I would stir small sections at a time, starting with the upper 1/2" area. Work your way across the tank through out the week. keep blasting the rock over and over. The HOB and filter socks will catch all the gunk. Clean them out daily, heck twice if your serious and or it gets filled. The idea is to remove rotting debris, no matter how little you have accumulated in the past 3 hours. Once the sand bed has been stirred from one end to the other, then stir the wiz out of it every hour. You want to get that stuff out of the bed, floating in the water and caught by the HOB and filter sock. Keep your feedings low and start alcohol/vinegar dosing. Dont think you dont have to, just do it. Its proven it eats nutrients, so... I will bet anything within a month, if not sooner, your algae will be going away. Oh yea, and an algae scrubber might be an idea also for you to tinker with. If you really want the algae gone, just make a cheap makeshift one for a while in a bucket. If you like it, you can incorporate it into your sump or something later.

[426Hemi]

Might be a special one, but by pincushion at it like a lawn mower.

[ReefUrchin]

Might be a special one, but by pincushion at it like a lawn mower.

Cherish him dearly and buy him whatever he wants for x-mas!

[Jeff000]

Well, water changes are fine...but reality is you need to suck out detritus as well as skim better.

I think a Bubble king super marine 200 is about as good as I feel like skimming.... I mean I am not sure how I could do better really.


I would probably add some filetr socks, then, clean the sand bed, depending on the depth will dictate how, and maybe a HOB filter. Now, every time you walk by the tank, stir it, blast some rocks with a power head. For deep sand beds and untouched sand beds in general, I would stir small sections at a time, starting with the upper 1/2" area. Work your way across the tank through out the week. keep blasting the rock over and over. The HOB and filter socks will catch all the gunk. Clean them out daily, heck twice if your serious and or it gets filled. The idea is to remove rotting debris, no matter how little you have accumulated in the past 3 hours. Once the sand bed has been stirred from one end to the other, then stir the wiz out of it every hour. You want to get that stuff out of the bed, floating in the water and caught by the HOB and filter sock. Keep your feedings low and start alcohol/vinegar dosing. Dont think you dont have to, just do it. Its proven it eats nutrients, so... I will bet anything within a month, if not sooner, your algae will be going away. Oh yea, and an algae scrubber might be an idea also for you to tinker with. If you really want the algae gone, just make a cheap makeshift one for a while in a bucket. If you like it, you can incorporate it into your sump or something later.

No sand. I will stir up the rocks with a power head and then a couple hours later vacuum out everything on the bottom, and then start sucking out the algae and stuff off the rocks till I have enough water out.

I feed frozen twice a day, I'm not sure i have ever seen any hit the bottom of the tank. And I do not pour the juice in the tank.

[swcc]

I think a Bubble king super marine 200 is about as good as I feel like skimming.... I mean I am not sure how I could do better really.



yeah, incredible skimmer on a 120 to 150 gallon tank...yet... not enough for your 250 gallon tank....note... super marin 200 so... 200 is less than 250...right?! if you don't 'feel' like running an appropriate sized skimmer for your tank...enjoy your algae...LOL...
anyways... why don't I deal with algae problems???... I have a skimmer that pulls 800 lph air on a 60 gal tank... your skimmer is 1600 lph...so it is good for a 120gal to 150 gal tank IME ... and this is dependent on just an average bioload.

[brettinteriors]

I am actually cutting back on my vinegar dosing due to hair algae. My no3 is zero yet I still battle hair algae. I wonder if the added bacteria can actually fuel hair algae after a while.

[swcc]

I am actually cutting back on my vinegar dosing due to hair algae. My no3 is zero yet I still battle hair algae. I wonder if the added bacteria can actually fuel hair algae after a while.

no, but an overload of organics and small skimming can... frankly if your getting hair algae it has nothing to do with upping bacterial load with vinegar.. but...considering how people go all willy nilly with carbon dosing... it can be the impact of results of this will nilly attitude and poor skimming and detritus removal.

[aleggett321]

if your no3 is zero, start looking at your po4. gfo as noted in earlier posts

[ReefUrchin]

Everything is in moderation, lets be real here. We put vinegar in our tanks, right? Why not use pure vinegar for our water, no algae would grow, right? Problem solved, right?

Moderation!!!!!!! :debi:

[ReefUrchin]

No sand. I will stir up the rocks with a power head and then a couple hours later vacuum out everything on the bottom, and then start sucking out the algae and stuff off the rocks till I have enough water out.


Well, remember, most of that stuff floating goes back into the rocks. If you have a filter sock, that will catch a lot of it as will sucking it up off the floor. Now, if you keep doing it, every day, as much as possible, you should never have much in the tank and you get it out before it rots.

I would also maybe try cutting back on feeding, just a bit. For a little time, maybe 1 cube a day with a big meal on the weekend. I am sure the fish will be fine. Not happy, but, fine.

[Jeff000]

yeah, incredible skimmer on a 120 to 150 gallon tank...yet... not enough for your 250 gallon tank....note... super marin 200 so... 200 is less than 250...right?! if you don't 'feel' like running an appropriate sized skimmer for your tank...enjoy your algae...LOL...
anyways... why don't I deal with algae problems???... I have a skimmer that pulls 800 lph air on a 60 gal tank... your skimmer is 1600 lph...so it is good for a 120gal to 150 gal tank IME ... and this is dependent on just an average bioload.

It's rated for 400 gallons. And pulls way more then the vertex I had that was rated for like 600.

The deltec rated at 370-450g only has 1200 lph. So is it only good for 100g?
You need to look at more than just lph for skimmers.





Well, remember, most of that stuff floating goes back into the rocks. If you have a filter sock, that will catch a lot of it as will sucking it up off the floor. Now, if you keep doing it, every day, as much as possible, you should never have much in the tank and you get it out before it rots.

I would also maybe try cutting back on feeding, just a bit. For a little time, maybe 1 cube a day with a big meal on the weekend. I am sure the fish will be fine. Not happy, but, fine.

Right now my tank is my sump, tank is curing, but I want to fix this problem before I move everything into it. So no way to have a filter sock at this time.

I'm not sure I could go from 6 cubes to 1 and still have all my fish and coral, I like keeping my angel fed and out of my corals, same with my blue throat pair, which I forgot to mention in my first post.

Not much gets stirred up when I blow off the rocks.

[ReefUrchin]

Gonna be hard without a sump. I would power down all pumps and carefully target feed corals juuuuuuust enough to get a little food on them, watch which fish eat, trying to make sure they all get fed and no more for anyone. If you have nothing on the rocks and vacuum it all out, then it sounds like solubles in the water which could be taken out with lanthium chloride if you had a sump and you could avoid doing water changes while getting 100% of the PO's out. Well, if you have a bubble king in the tank itself, sounds like your crafty enough to make a filter sock contraption with a maxi-jet or something for the lanthium chloride?

[knap_123]

Acclimate a Mollie?

[Jeff000]

Gonna be hard without a sump. I would power down all pumps and carefully target feed corals juuuuuuust enough to get a little food on them, watch which fish eat, trying to make sure they all get fed and no more for anyone. If you have nothing on the rocks and vacuum it all out, then it sounds like solubles in the water which could be taken out with lanthium chloride if you had a sump and you could avoid doing water changes while getting 100% of the PO's out. Well, if you have a bubble king in the tank itself, sounds like your crafty enough to make a filter sock contraption with a maxi-jet or something for the lanthium chloride?


I don't feed any corals directly, but I want to make sure that my not reef safe fish stay fed enough to not think about eating corals, lol.

Ya been thinking how I can make a kind of vacuum cleaner so I can clean and not lose water volume too.


I'm hoping that if I can get it under control then adding the display into the system will be safe and just make it easier to keep it in control.


Acclimate a Mollie?


Not a bad idea.

[SoonerSalt]

I fought major algae problems all summer. Tried major water changes, algae killing chemicals and siphoning debris for months with little improvement. Ordered suggested reef cleaning package w snails, crabss, ect from reef cleaner.com and the problem resolved within a few weeks. I did add a handful of chaeto to my refugium tank about the same time. Also made a mistake of adding saltwater once to top off which raised salt level to 1.026. These two things may have had an impact too. Luckily the tank is finally back on track and having a ball buying new coral. Amazing to see some of my zoas that seemed dead for 6 months, come back

[Jeff000]

I fought major algae problems all summer. Tried major water changes, algae killing chemicals and siphoning debris for months with little improvement. Ordered suggested reef cleaning package w snails, crabss, ect from reef cleaner.com and the problem resolved within a few weeks. I did add a handful of chaeto to my refugium tank about the same time. Also made a mistake of adding saltwater once to top off which raised salt level to 1.026. These two things may have had an impact too. Luckily the tank is finally back on track and having a ball buying new coral. Amazing to see some of my zoas that seemed dead for 6 months, come back

I've been wondering if my cuc has just died off too much to control normal stuff leading to this, but didn't really think tt could be the case.

I put 30 turbo snails in yesterday, and waiting on the lfs to get hermits in.

[swcc]

It's rated for 400 gallons. And pulls way more then the vertex I had that was rated for like 600.

The deltec rated at 370-450g only has 1200 lph. So is it only good for 100g?
You need to look at more than just lph for skimmers.



yes you do need to look at more than just air draw on a skimmer, however a balanced skimmer with more air draw does a better job than one with less. Ratings are very subjective(manufacturers can slap any tank size rating they want on their skimmer). Choosing a skimmer that just does not keep up with the demands of your bioload means you need to make up for it somewhere... be it alternative filtration(like macro algae or what have you) and/or a much higher water change rate. You have a skimmer that is a great skimmer, but, as you can see your skimmer is not pulling enough organics to keep the water from climbing up in organics. So, you have too much left over nutrients for algae to grow and excess bacterial filtration to develop. Your skimmer is too small to keep up with your system and results speak for themselves.
The deltec skimmer with 1200lph air draw is really best suited for a tank around 90 to 120 gallons...yes...
The supermarin 250 would have been a better choice for your size tank.
Either way at this point you are in need of more export, so get out the siphon and get the detritus out of the substrate, out from between the rocks, and keep working at it till the systems nutrients are much lower and the hair algae subsides(this can take quite some time). The only thing you can do at this point really...also you cannot rely on livestock to reduce the algae, all the livestock might do is consume it, them poop it back out, then with the nutrients still there it still allows the algae to continue to grow.

Law of conservation of mass.

[Jeff000]

yes you do need to look at more than just air draw on a skimmer, however a balanced skimmer with more air draw does a better job than one with less. Ratings are very subjective(manufacturers can slap any tank size rating they want on their skimmer). Choosing a skimmer that just does not keep up with the demands of your bioload means you need to make up for it somewhere... be it alternative filtration(like macro algae or what have you) and/or a much higher water change rate. You have a skimmer that is a great skimmer, but, as you can see your skimmer is not pulling enough organics to keep the water from climbing up in organics. So, you have too much left over nutrients for algae to grow and excess bacterial filtration to develop. Your skimmer is too small to keep up with your system and results speak for themselves.
The deltec skimmer with 1200lph air draw is really best suited for a tank around 90 to 120 gallons...yes...
The supermarin 250 would have been a better choice for your size tank.
Either way at this point you are in need of more export, so get out the siphon and get the detritus out of the substrate, out from between the rocks, and keep working at it till the systems nutrients are much lower and the hair algae subsides(this can take quite some time). The only thing you can do at this point really...also you cannot rely on livestock to reduce the algae, all the livestock might do is consume it, them poop it back out, then with the nutrients still there it still allows the algae to continue to grow.

Law of conservation of mass.


Yes manufactures can rate them for whatever they want.

But I have NEVER seen ANYONE say that Bubble King over rates their skimmers.

I'm not sure I trust you opinion. By your logic the cheap no name Chinese skimmer at the lfs should be good for several hundred gallons of water since it draws 3800 lph of air. But they only rate it for 180 gallons themselves....

But the deltec 2570 by your logic is only good for 120 gallons... despite it being rated for 370 gallons.

And the deltec 3070 should be good for only around 400 gallons, which is nowhere near its 1320g rating....

And the bubble king delux 650 would be good for just over 600 gallons, again no where near its 1000g rating.

And the vertex 650 rating of 600-640 gallons would be good.


So that means that the 9,000 dollar bubble king isn't as good as the 1200 dollar vertex?
Hmm, but I had the vertex 650... and it didn't do half as good a job as the Bubble king I have now. I had them both running for a bit, and the bubble king almost always had twice the sludge, and twice as thick.

[swcc]

Yes manufactures can rate them for whatever they want.

But I have NEVER seen ANYONE say that Bubble King over rates their skimmers.

I'm not sure I trust you opinion. By your logic the cheap no name Chinese skimmer at the lfs should be good for several hundred gallons of water since it draws 3800 lph of air. But they only rate it for 180 gallons themselves....

But the deltec 2570 by your logic is only good for 120 gallons... despite it being rated for 370 gallons.

And the deltec 3070 should be good for only around 400 gallons, which is nowhere near its 1320g rating....

And the bubble king delux 650 would be good for just over 600 gallons, again no where near its 1000g rating.

And the vertex 650 rating of 600-640 gallons would be good.


So that means that the 9,000 dollar bubble king isn't as good as the 1200 dollar vertex?
Hmm, but I had the vertex 650... and it didn't do half as good a job as the Bubble king I have now. I had them both running for a bit, and the bubble king almost always had twice the sludge, and twice as thick.

OK...your bubble king supermarin 200... rated for 100 to 400 gallons ...supermarin 250...150 to 800 gal...gallons???...HUH??? how can it be good for 100 to 400 gallons? Or a supermarin 250 be good for 150 to 800 gallons??? After all there is a huge difference in the normal average bioload of a 100 gal tank vs a 400 gallon one or a 150 gal tank vs an 800 gallon one. All experienced reefers such as myself put zero stock in anybody's 'rating' system and take water draw, air draw, body and neck size into consideration... not some arbitrary number that is covering a huge disbursement of tank size.
cost of a bubble king vs a vertex has nothing to do with it... if a mustang produces 400hp and a ferrari produces 400hp ...which has more horsepower??? they are the same... regardless of what you pay. Bubble king does not equal better performance..just more cost and more precise build quality.

Oh the cheap chinese made skimmer if it draws 3800lph air and has the correct body and neck...well ...you bet it will handle a higher organic load than a much more expensive skimmer with less power... just like you could spend 1K on the BK mini 160 and it will not come close to being able to handle the bioload that a reef octo sro5000 can...at half the cost.

[Jeff000]

OK...your bubble king supermarin 200... rated for 100 to 400 gallons ...supermarin 250...150 to 800 gal...gallons???...HUH??? how can it be good for 100 to 400 gallons? Or a supermarin 250 be good for 150 to 800 gallons??? After all there is a huge difference in the normal average bioload of a 100 gal tank vs a 400 gallon one or a 150 gal tank vs an 800 gallon one. All experienced reefers such as myself put zero stock in anybody's 'rating' system and take water draw, air draw, body and neck size into consideration... not some arbitrary number that is covering a huge disbursement of tank size.
cost of a bubble king vs a vertex has nothing to do with it... if a mustang produces 400hp and a ferrari produces 400hp ...which has more horsepower??? they are the same... regardless of what you pay. Bubble king does not equal better performance..just more cost and more precise build quality.

That Ferrari out performs the mustang in so many more ways than one, just proves that a single variable for comparison means nothing.

At the end of the day, my bubble king still out performed the vertex, they were in the same water at the same time. Yet the vertex pulls more air and water...

[swcc]

That Ferrari out performs the mustang in so many more ways than one, just proves that a single variable for comparison means nothing.

At the end of the day, my bubble king still out performed the vertex, they were in the same water at the same time. Yet the vertex pulls more air and water...
well when it comes to skimming it is really only 'horsepower' that would matter. All the other things that make a Ferrari better than a Mustang do not matter in this case.
does the bk really outperform the Vertex? Did you have the hair algae battle with the vertex or is it now with the bubbleking? skimmate is relative... I could put a much smaller skimmer on my tank and produce lots of nasty black skimmate... yet..I would also have higher organic levels left over to fuel algae and bacteria in my tank...why.. because the larger skimmer is holding organic levels lower by virtue of keeping the tank cleaner and pulling organics faster(and the cleaner system produces less skimmate over time)...so sure, the smaller skimmer may appear to be pulling more skimmate...but it is pulling more skimmate because the tank is actually kept dirtier and the skimmer does not keep up. It is slower to pull organics and closer to maxed out in performance. There is a means to an end though... I certainly would not run a supermarin200 on my 60gal tank... that is just huge overkill...

really... it is simple... you have hair algae... this is a nutrient problem.. argue all you want... my experience over 25 years tells me you have picked a skimmer that is just too small for your system and due to this you have excess organic levels and the algae present. I never said your skimmer is not top notch... it surely is one of the best... just too small and the results your experiencing prove it.

[reefgeezer]

To get back on track... if there is a lot of HA in the system testing for nutrients is of little value. The nutrients are bound in the algae. If you have a lot of algae AND can see elevated levels of nutrients, you have very high levels. When you stopped carbon dosing, you just made more nutrients available for the algae.

You have a decent skimmer, I don believe that is the issue. The issue is over feeding and maybe being over-stocked for the water volume you have now. Big water changes (40-50%) with aggressive scrubbing/vacuuming in the process, more carbon dosing, more GFO changed more ofter, and extreme reduction in feeding will get you there eventually. Also adjust the skimmer to skim wet.

[swcc]

To get back on track... if there is a lot of HA in the system testing for nutrients is of little value. The nutrients are bound in the algae. If you have a lot of algae AND can see elevated levels of nutrients, you have very high levels. When you stopped carbon dosing, you just made more nutrients available for the algae.

You have a decent skimmer, I don believe that is the issue. The issue is over feeding and maybe being over-stocked for the water volume you have now. Big water changes (40-50%) with aggressive scrubbing/vacuuming in the process, more carbon dosing, more GFO changed more ofter, and extreme reduction in feeding will get you there eventually. Also adjust the skimmer to skim wet.
he stopped carbon dosing? was that mentioned here? I can't find it. If so and he got hair algae afterwards....you bet a hair algae bloom can commonly be the result.
overfeeding and overstocked? based on 250 gal tank his stocking is not bad at all... maybe could be overfeeding, but, really this excess nutrients can easily be taken care of if the skimmer is large enough and can pull much more than it is on average so when organics are suddenly increased the skimmer handles the excess...so back to the skimmer again.

[reefgeezer]

Sorry... cutting back on carbon dosing was in someone else's post. I guess I'm not clear on how much water volume we're talking about here. However, if the system bioload (food, waste) were in-line with it's component, HA would not be an issue. I would submit that the OP has been over feeding and that aggressive measures should be taken to solve the resulting problems. I suppose buying a $500 skimmer would also help, but it might be wasteful if reducing feeding and applying a little elbow grease will also solve the problem.

[Critter9905]

I had this same problem not too long ago. I lost a few frags, and had a little die-off. I had a purple tang that wouldn't touch it. I ended up buying a one spot foxface and a sea hare. I scraped/sucked out what I could during my water change, then (no kidding) by my next water change 2 weeks later, I was almost entirely gone. Now apparently my purple tang has learned from watching my foxface nipping at algae. I have none in my tank at this point. No chemicals added. Just nature doing what it should.

[ReefUrchin]

I don't feed any corals directly, but I want to make sure that my not reef safe fish stay fed enough to not think about eating corals, lol.

Ya been thinking how I can make a kind of vacuum cleaner so I can clean and not lose water volume too..

Corals can do a lot by themselves, you would be surprised. I have a dendro I never feed and it has been living for 2+ years off fish poop that floats around and the rock work I squirt down with a baster. I would stop feeding some of the corals and watch how they do, or, in the least, target feed very small portions and just feed the fish enough to give them something to eat but not be pigs, unless your doing a LOT of vacuuming per day.

HOB or something like a RO canister with 1/2" inlet/outlet and a pleated filter should do the trick.

[Chief Hill]

Hydrogen peroxide dip works really good.

[swcc]

Sorry... cutting back on carbon dosing was in someone else's post. I guess I'm not clear on how much water volume we're talking about here. However, if the system bioload (food, waste) were in-line with it's component, HA would not be an issue. I would submit that the OP has been over feeding and that aggressive measures should be taken to solve the resulting problems. I suppose buying a $500 skimmer would also help, but it might be wasteful if reducing feeding and applying a little elbow grease will also solve the problem.

I personally do not like to suggest to lower feeding. main reason Is there is so much of this bad wisdom out there where reef owners are feeding as little as once every three days. This is horribly bad for any fish. Now it sure is true if he is feeding several cubes of food daily and a sheet of nori, he could cut down, but he has several tangs and their health depends on being fed decently. Elbow grease sure does work. He has a top end skimmer... a $1500 bubble king...unfortunately it is the size where anyone who know skimmers will say is better sized for a 150ish gal tank and a larger one would be best for a 250 gal tank like he has. Especially if he is barebottom.
If he still has that vertex, I would stick it in the sump and run it along with the bubble king skimmers. And I would run them on the wet side. OH, and with them in place..he can start up carbon dosing slowly and work on starving out the algae.

[Mekanic]

Ya been thinking how I can make a kind of vacuum cleaner so I can clean and not lose water volume too.

Ehiem makes such a gadget.

http://www.eheim.com/en_GB/products/accessories/cleaning/quick_vac_pro

I had a turf algae issue for a while, needed more CuC and less lighting. My photoperiod was WAY too long.

Cut back the hours on lighting, added some turbo's and hermits, all was good after a little while.

[Steve175]

This is not a problem with the skimmer [swcc you have made your point in spades and might consider allowing the thread to get back on track]: I have run a BK250 on a larger tank: it is plenty big for this application. I honestly think you are overfeeding: I struggled with HA at the one year mark on my current system when I was feeding like you (cubes 2x per day, nori daily, etc); I ramped up GFO (weekly at first now monthly) and cut way back on feeding (pellet ~ 5d per week, nori and frozen rarely with frozen always thawed and well rinsed) after realizing that most of my good friends who do really well with SPS feed sparing pellet only. I have multiple tangs (including an achilles), an emperator, and a bluethroat which continue to do well as do the SPS. Even with this marked improvement in feeding (and a large fuge growing caulerpa well) and with frequent manual removal, I was only keeping the HA in check. Although I thought it was voodoo, I finally resorted to Kent Tech M: dosed 1ml per gallon pf water (was 1.5 liters daily for my system) and after 10 days the HA simply disintigrated. Mg level went from 1200 at baseline to 1350 at peak with no discernable effects on inverts, fish, or coral and I simply ley it drift back down with water changes. I agree with your plan to eliminate this problem fully before moving into your DT. Keep us posted.

[reefgeezer]

I personally do not like to suggest to lower feeding. main reason Is there is so much of this bad wisdom out there where reef owners are feeding as little as once every three days.

Adding the Vertex sure wouldn't hurt if you've got the room, BUT... if you continue to over feed you will have problems even if you spend another $1500 on skimmers. BTW, sorry for undervaluing your skimmer. I'm cheap so I tend to think in the Reef Octo price range.

In my opinion and experience, unless you are keeping certain fish, feeding every other day is more than needed. I also like to skip a day every once in a while. I've been keeping marine fish since the 80's and have never fed more than every other day. It might be "bad wisdom" as I've never bothered to find any peer reviewed study about feeding frequency, but it has worked for me for a long time.

Good luck and as Randy says "Happy Reefing".

While I'm sure it won't completely solve you problems, if you're going to feed that much, you might want to consider carbon dosing.

[swcc]

Adding the Vertex sure wouldn't hurt if you've got the room, BUT... if you continue to over feed you will have problems even if you spend another $1500 on skimmers. BTW, sorry for undervaluing your skimmer. I'm cheap so I tend to think in the Reef Octo price range.

In my opinion and experience, unless you are keeping certain fish, feeding every other day is more than needed. I also like to skip a day every once in a while. I've been keeping marine fish since the 80's and have never fed more than every other day. It might be "bad wisdom" as I've never bothered to find any peer reviewed study about feeding frequency, but it has worked for me for a long time.

Good luck and as Randy says "Happy Reefing".

While I'm sure it won't completely solve you problems, if you're going to feed that much, you might want to consider carbon dosing.

the idea of 'overfeeding' is suggesting to restrict import...you have import and export...properly planned systems with oversized export means one has room for error on import...so.. more export available and one can import more and the less one has to ever be concerned with overfeeding.
Two ways to actually export....skimming and siphon of detritus.
Considering his system is understocked, what if he had it fully stocked with big fish and had to actually feed more than what he may be feeding now? What then? Starve the fish cause export is not good enough?
The Op has grazers in his system..multiple tangs... they need to be fed well for their health and to live a long life.

[olddreamer]

Ehiem makes such a gadget.

http://www.eheim.com/en_GB/products/accessories/cleaning/quick_vac_pro

I had a turf algae issue for a while, needed more CuC and less lighting. My photoperiod was WAY too long.

Cut back the hours on lighting, added some turbo's and hermits, all was good after a little while.

Hi Mekanic,

Do you (or anyone else) know if this Eheim vac cleaner you put the link up for works for picking up stuff like bubble algae, rather than just mulm and fine stuff? I had a cheap and cheerful ebay version of this, but it is useless for bubble algae...the bubbles just get into the vanes of the pump and jam it solid instantly :(I need it to remove bubbles big time, as syphoning at water change time is just not enough)

[Eric45]

I fought a year long battle w/HA and finally one. On the way,I thought I'd beat it several times, but turned out to be wrong. Ultimately, it took 3 things: 1)bringing nitrate and PO down as low as possible - gfo is a necessity; 2) reduce lighting to no more than six hours a day; 3) clipping it back once it starts to look kind of thin. Oh and it took about 2 months to finally get rid of it all. Once its gone, you can go back to a more normal feeding/water changing regimen. I changed water every week/changed gfo every 2 weeks and fed once a day and not much then.

[Mekanic]

Hi Mekanic,

Do you (or anyone else) know if this Eheim vac cleaner you put the link up for works for picking up stuff like bubble algae, rather than just mulm and fine stuff? I had a cheap and cheerful ebay version of this, but it is useless for bubble algae...the bubbles just get into the vanes of the pump and jam it solid instantly :(I need it to remove bubbles big time, as syphoning at water change time is just not enough)

I have no first hand experience, but from video's I've seen it pull gravel in a FW aquarium about an inch or 2 up the tube.

[Jeff000]

Corals can do a lot by themselves, you would be surprised. I have a dendro I never feed and it has been living for 2+ years off fish poop that floats around and the rock work I squirt down with a baster. I would stop feeding some of the corals and watch how they do, or, in the least, target feed very small portions and just feed the fish enough to give them something to eat but not be pigs, unless your doing a LOT of vacuuming per day

I have never fed my corals. They get light and whatever is in the water.


I personally do not like to suggest to lower feeding. main reason Is there is so much of this bad wisdom out there where reef owners are feeding as little as once every three days. This is horribly bad for any fish. Now it sure is true if he is feeding several cubes of food daily and a sheet of nori, he could cut down, but he has several tangs and their health depends on being fed decently. Elbow grease sure does work. He has a top end skimmer... a $1500 bubble king...unfortunately it is the size where anyone who know skimmers will say is better sized for a 150ish gal tank and a larger one would be best for a 250 gal tank like he has. Especially if he is barebottom.
If he still has that vertex, I would stick it in the sump and run it along with the bubble king skimmers. And I would run them on the wet side. OH, and with them in place..he can start up carbon dosing slowly and work on starving out the algae.

I do not have the vertex anymore. But I have been looking at a new skimmer, or second skimmer.

I feed 6 cubes a day, 2 in the morning, 4 in the evening. If I miss the morning I just do the 4 in the evening. I do not pour the juice in the tank. And none of the food makes it any farther than 5" into the water, the gold flake is like a vacuum and almost tries to get the food before it hits the water.

I feed a 4x3 piece of nori when I get home, and they eat it up pretty quick.

I have a carbon reactor, but it's been dry for ages now, I guess I will set it back up.

All my fish look amazing. When I go on vacation they only get fed every other day, and after 2 weeks of this the fish still look good, but not as good as they normally do.


Ehiem makes such a gadget.

http://www.eheim.com/en_GB/products/accessories/cleaning/quick_vac_pro

I had a turf algae issue for a while, needed more CuC and less lighting. My photoperiod was WAY too long.

Cut back the hours on lighting, added some turbo's and hermits, all was good after a little while.

Interesting, wonder how much it is. I just cut my lighting back about 20% last night. Going to see what that does.

[ngrubich]

Hi Mekanic,

Do you (or anyone else) know if this Eheim vac cleaner you put the link up for works for picking up stuff like bubble algae, rather than just mulm and fine stuff? I had a cheap and cheerful ebay version of this, but it is useless for bubble algae...the bubbles just get into the vanes of the pump and jam it solid instantly :(I need it to remove bubbles big time, as syphoning at water change time is just not enough)

I have used the EHEIM gravel vac thing in my cichlid tank before. once. then returned it. That thing will suck up sand no matter how hard you try not to do so, and it will jam the impeller. Took me about 10 minuntes of fumbling with it to realize it wasn't that great. I ended up reading reviews on them to see if mine was a dud, but apparently since EHEIM outsourced to China, their quality isn't near what it used to be; sure enough, my box said "Made in PRC"
In my opinion, save the $50 or whatever it costs. Another company makes a HOB-style vacuum cleaner with filter socks so you can recycle the water.

[MathiasM.]

Hello =)

You might want to try some Mespilia Globulus (sea urche).
I had lots of hair algae and just in two days this little guy ate a lot of
them.

Greetings
Mathias

[coder35]

i think a yellow tang could help get rid some of the hair algea

[TylerHaworth]

6 cubes a day + 12 square inches of nori in a 250 gallon tank with a skimmer that's realistically good for about 200 gallons max, all without running any other sort of nutrient export... And you wonder why you're having hair algae problems?

Get a proper skimmer, run proper export methods, and stop feeding your fish like they're dining at Golden Corral... They don't need it!

[swcc]

I have never fed my corals. They get light and whatever is in the water.




I do not have the vertex anymore. But I have been looking at a new skimmer, or second skimmer.

I feed 6 cubes a day, 2 in the morning, 4 in the evening. If I miss the morning I just do the 4 in the evening. I do not pour the juice in the tank. And none of the food makes it any farther than 5" into the water, the gold flake is like a vacuum and almost tries to get the food before it hits the water.

I feed a 4x3 piece of nori when I get home, and they eat it up pretty quick.

I have a carbon reactor, but it's been dry for ages now, I guess I will set it back up.

All my fish look amazing. When I go on vacation they only get fed every other day, and after 2 weeks of this the fish still look good, but not as good as they normally do.


That is a big feeding regimen. Yeah, I saw the post on going bigger on the skimming... Vertex alpha 300 for the win IMO... your bubble king would be good if you fed, at most, half that or more in the lines of one to two cubes a day.

[byronjbacon]

The problem with hermit crabs is that they eat whatever is in their general path (to include eachother) if you want to target the hair algae and can't get a hold of sea hair I recommend emerald crabs. They really only feed on green algae, so at least you know what they're after. Do some reading on them first, but I think that should help. I keep a few in my refugium just to contain the chaeto growth and it works great.

http://www.liveaquaria.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=497+501+628&pcatid=628

Hope this helps and good luck,
Byron

[olddreamer]

The problem with hermit crabs is that they eat whatever is in their general path (to include eachother) if you want to target the hair algae and can't get a hold of sea hair I recommend emerald crabs. They really only feed on green algae, so at least you know what they're after. Do some reading on them first, but I think that should help. I keep a few in my refugium just to contain the chaeto growth and it works great.

http://www.liveaquaria.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=497+501+628&pcatid=628

Hope this helps and good luck,
Byron

Hi Byron,

While I agree with you by and large, It does rather depend on which one of the hundreds of types of hermit crabs you get. Quite a few of them seem to be pretty well algae eaters only. Also, I was watching my two Mithrax crabs a few nights back apparently attacking my Duncan coral....most of the Mithrax I have had would do that. I say apparently because they like to sit on the convenient stems of a Duncan and reach down and pick away at the polyp heads. However, it is not clear whether they are actually picking off pieces of polyp...or trying to pick off minute particles of algae that I can't see. What is clear is that their actions upset the coral a great deal, and it often remains closed then for days on end...so they do no good, either way. They will also do that to Zoas and similar....although you usualy have to be a night bird with a torch, like me, to spot them at their mischief :lmao:

One other thing that puzzles me is your use of crabs in your refugium to 'contain your chaeto growth'. Surely one of the major benefits of a refugium growing algae it to export nitrogenous waste by removing algae that has consumed the waste.....it acts as an algae 'scrubber' and efficiently exports nitrogen when you take out the algae growth? If you use crabs to eat the excess algae in the fuge, then they poop out as much nitrogen as they take in...in their waste...and you nitrogen is then trapped in a continuous loop in your system, instead of being removed.

I hope I haven't upset you by offering my opinions Byron, 'cos you come across as a nice guy trying to help fellow reefers....and you may have very good reasons for doing things the way you do....just thought I would offer my view on things :wave:

[Jeff000]

That is a big feeding regimen. Yeah, I saw the post on going bigger on the skimming... Vertex alpha 300 for the win IMO... your bubble king would be good if you fed, at most, half that or more in the lines of one to two cubes a day.

I'm undecided between the Vertex Alpha 300 and the Deltec 2560 right now.
Was talking to a couple people that have been liking the Deltec more, but never really get a straight answer as to why.

When I feed 2 cubes in the morning, like I did a few minutes ago, the triggers and gold flake eat 90% of the food. The other fish don't get much, the purple doesn't get anything, nor does the naso.

(should mention that a half cube goes into the seahorse tank from each feeding)

Not a single piece of food makes it anywhere near the bottom of the tank. I feed with the flow off.

[Steve175]

It doesn't matter that all the food gets eaten: it still all comes out the other end of each fish to feed the hair algae. You are feeding waaaaaaaayyyyy too much IMO/IME. You are adding more gasoline to the fire daily and wonder why it won't go out. If you continue at that rate, then I agree with everyone else that you have to dramatically increase export: bigger/2nd skimmer, ATS, carbon dosing, GFO, remote DSB (and possibly a combination of the above). Once you get a reliable net export for a while, do consider the Kent Tech M (stuff was like magic for me and many others). Good luck/I'll sign off the thread (I start to feel like my wife when I say the same thing more than once).

[swcc]

I'm undecided between the Vertex Alpha 300 and the Deltec 2560 right now.
Was talking to a couple people that have been liking the Deltec more, but never really get a straight answer as to why.

When I feed 2 cubes in the morning, like I did a few minutes ago, the triggers and gold flake eat 90% of the food. The other fish don't get much, the purple doesn't get anything, nor does the naso.

(should mention that a half cube goes into the seahorse tank from each feeding)

Not a single piece of food makes it anywhere near the bottom of the tank. I feed with the flow off.

as mentioned in your skimmer thread..the 2560 is the same size air/water processing as your supermarin200. it is not a larger skimmer performance wise.
Deltec makes great products, you just gotta look more at something that is drawing 3000+LPH air and will move about 1400 to 2000gph water. This way you process the 400 total gallons of water several times an hour with plenty of air and keep up with the feeding demands of your aquarium...
And as stated above... lots of food...lots of waste.. and the skimmer is the key to export the waste 24/7 so nutrients stay low and algae has nothing to feed off of.

[scubafreaky]

Back to detritus and HA removal…for the purposes of vacuuming I use a relatively cheap canister filter, the Marineland Magnum 350. I only use it as a vacuum cleaner on the same day when I do water changes and not as its intended use as an everyday filter. I also have spare Micron filter cartridges (Petco sells them) so I can change them out during one cleaning then I soak them later in 50/50 bleach/water. This thing has a lot of suck so BE CAREFUL around your corals and anything not glued down if you don’t use the intake guards (I don’t use any of the attachments on the ends of the hoses). You can even buy it at Petco in a pinch but Amazon has them for an excellent price.

http://www.amazon.com/Marineland-PC0350C-Magnum-350-100-Gallon/dp/B00025YUR2/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1351628847&sr=8-1&keywords=magnum+350+canister+filter

[GPB]

I wonder. Is this a just a HA problem or might it be Bryopsis?
Tangs, and a foxface should be able to eat a toon of HA. They won't generally touch Bryopsis. Since you have so much HA, do you really need to feed Nori?

+1 on food portion control. You are feeding alot.

If you can remove some rocks, Hydrogen peroxide dip would make big gains in reducing HA fast. It also will kill Bryopsis fast.

I would definite start with GFO is you aren't already using it.
Cheato in sump is good too.
Not sure you need new or bigger skimmer.

If you control nutrients going in, and have a good export system going , I don't think it's that important.

[brandon429]

Post pics of the tank so we can id the invader. Any rocks treated w peroxide when i sent pm last week would be totally clean by now. You can clean tank perfectly free of algae rather fast, then use long term control methods.

Waiting on prevention methods to remove the invader can take months unnecessarily

[Orm Embar]

One other idea - add macroalgae that isn't invasive. This worked quit well in my last reefm except the Caulerpa was highly invasive and killed my corals. But a macroalgae that would consume the same nutrients as microalgae and be pruneable for nutrient export would be another option.

Refugium with macroalgae would be another way of doing the same thing.

[TMS]

Read through here and it looks like this is just an algae bloom, nothing more, a nutrient went out of whack and now you've got a bloom. If this had started slowly over the period of months I would agree with maintenance/lifes support issues. It appears though to have come out of the blue, making it a bloom.

I have seen this many times a tank with good maintenance suddenly gets a bloom, and in the end with time it dies off. I don't see many problems with your maintenance (you should have been dusting more which was probably a factor), if you keep it up the bloom will eventually die off but it takes months usually. Until it dies off keep it away from your corals and don't do any of this over the top crap everyone is saying here. You have a bloom you want to identify the issue and fix it, trying 80 tricks at a time will just kill fish and corals, never decrease lighting to kill algae!

Its only been weeks it took months for me, and longer for some, to beat the HA and it has never come back.

If anything add your reactor back on, I like to run gfo/rowaphos here and there just so I can feed more I like to over feed.

I leave you with these words, HA blooms! and all blooms eventually die off.

[brandon429]

Not that it doesn't work for you, lots of people get lucky and have no problems. Fixing other peoples tanks is a whole nother ball of yarn.


Pending pics, we really can't assess anything about this posters tank without making blanket statements on one side or the other. The one thing I can guarantee however is that what works for our tanks rarely works for others, especially when you start jumping off into tank threads who were trying the usual approaches for months or years without relent.

if it was that easy, everyone would just follow what the books said in 1998 about algae maintenance and we wouldn't have a million invaded tank threads if simple care and CUC did the job. I can't count the number of low phosphate threads we've collected in the big peroxide thread that were perfectly in line nutrient-wise before importing a pernicious invader of some type.