Algae Scrubbers - ATS vs UAS

[_shorty_]

ATS (algae turf scrubbers) vs UAS (up-flow algae scrubber)
In practice - which do you prefer, and why?

Each (to my understanding) seems to have its bennifets. Maybe we could list bennifets and draw-backs of each for those who are deciding how to construct and implement thier own algae scrubbers?

UAS Bennifets:
* don't have to deal with the drasted slotted pipe.
* Potentially design with easy-to-remove screen (without turning off water flow)
* I've heard that it yields slightly better growth... ??

UAS DrawBacks:
* Not as simple to light on both sides of the screen (although you can still do given a little enginuity - and maybe some acrylic work)
* My guess is that you need more intensity of light through the larger thickness of water? (which could also make for more compact designs as you can probably move your CFL bulbs closer to the actual screen)

ATS Bennifets:
* time tested - it's proven itself in nutrient removal of any size system given the correct set-up
* Good flow of water with more contact on the algae itself.
* easier to light from both sides

ATS DrawBacks:
* that DANG slotted pipe :mad2: (I personally don't like the slotted pipe because of my first design. It works great, but I engineered a nice acrylic box (above tank) with Rigid PVC. It is a definite pain to get the screen in and out of the slot when time to clean the screen. My own design, my own fault...

One major question in my mind is to the effectiveness of the UAS as far as actual nutrient removal goes. Everyone talks about how to effectively grow the green hair algae which is obviously important, but what about the effectiveness of nutrient removal itself which is the ultimate goal after all...? Sure it grows algae well, but what about water displacement over the algae itself? Maybe I'm not seeing the whole picture (of nutrient equilization throughout the water column maybe) but it seems that there is an important piece of the puzzle to have good water movement over the algae in order to have as much water in contact with the algae as possible in order to remove those nutrients from the water column... Is that not an issue with the UAS?

[BigAl2007]

I'm running a "factory made" UAS here on my work tank and it works like a charm.

[_shorty_]

BigAl - which model do you use? And how much flow do you have going through it? How easy is it to clean screens? How often to you clean screens? Other nice features to mention about it?

[silverwolf72]

Just started a UAS using a old CPR backpac in my sump, runs off the water and air from my drains. Still waiting to tell how well it works

[BigAl2007]

I have the small "Magnetic Hanging" UAS from Santa Monica.

It's VERY easy to clean... take the wet side out, go to trashcan/outside and pull the lush GHA off. Put the wet side back in and realign the dryside to the wetside.

I'm running a "Whisper 10" air pump and it's growing GHA like it's KUDZU lol

Here's my post from my home forum today where I was showing today's "harvest"

I peeked at my UAS today and WOW! Beyond time to "Harvest"... I need to make a point to do it more often.....


2nd UAS Cleaning (4 weeks growth)

Right out of the tank (Smells GOOD lol)
http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc265/BigAl07_01/Algae/2012-10-30154819.jpg

Getting ready to be cleaned
http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc265/BigAl07_01/Algae/2012-10-30154852.jpg

Screen laying down to show growth on BOTH sides
http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc265/BigAl07_01/Algae/2012-10-30154909.jpg

[sabbath]

I have the small "Magnetic Hanging" UAS from Santa Monica.

It's VERY easy to clean... take the wet side out, go to trashcan/outside and pull the lush GHA off. Put the wet side back in and realign the dryside to the wetside.

I'm running a "Whisper 10" air pump and it's growing GHA like it's KUDZU lol

Here's my post from my home forum today where I was showing today's "harvest"

Wow that is incredible growth! I have have one (hog.5) going about 11 weeks with very little of anything. I clean it every 2 weeks anyway. How many hours a day do you run your lights. Is this a reef tank?

[BigAl2007]

Wow that is incredible growth! I have have one (hog.5) going about 11 weeks with very little of anything. I clean it every 2 weeks anyway. How many hours a day do you run your lights. Is this a reef tank?

Yes it's a 5 1/2 year old NanoCube 12DX that's full mixed reef.

I didn't see any growth at all for several weeks. In fact I was almost about to give up on it because I kept checking and nothing. Then I sort of just "left it alone" for a month and WHAMO! It was literally running over with GREEN. I cleaned it 1x in the first 2 months (at 14 days) and then just left it alone. After 3 weeks of not even looking at it the unit was slammed full. The pictures above are after 4 weeks of no attention so I'll try to be more diligent about cleaning it out.

I have my lights on a timer with 16hrs LIGHT + 8 hours dark.

[_shorty_]

Just started a UAS using a old CPR backpac in my sump, runs off the water and air from my drains. Still waiting to tell how well it works

So is the screen completely submerged, then? I'd be interested in hearing the results as well... especially without the air stone bubbling up from underneath - but it sounds like you have more flow directly downward over the screen than a normal UAS would have.

This sounds similar to what I've ended up with, but I went ahead and added the air stones underneath. I made 115 tank from scratch and made an ATS scrubber above tank to drain down into the display. I learned a lot from my last ATS (especially as far as ease of maintenance goes - do's and don'ts) so I tried applying some of those to the new design. Since then, I found the posts over the past year on all the new specs about scrubbers, and THEN read about the newer UAS. So, I raised the water level of my design, and ended up with my current setup - forcing flow down over the screen causing decent amount of air bubbles going down, at the same time having the air bubbles rising up from bottom via an air stone. Hoping the high water turnover/displacement along with the air bubbles might yield some good results. But, time will tell.

Oh, and the added bennifet of the higher water level in the above tank scrubber to support the function of the UAS vs ATS - helps with micro bubbles in the display tank!! I was fighting that with my design.. and simply raising the level of water putting more pressure on the air bubbles to rise - helped a ton! With a couple added baffles, I bet I could completely eliminate micro-bubbles.

So - this is the reason for my original post... Maybe it'll save me and others time and effort in trial and error if we learn from each other in implementation of our different design ideas.

I've only recently ended up with my current setup - so I'll post some pics and request feedback (hopefully tonight)...

I'll also take some pics of the old ATS on my 29 gallon that I referrenced learing a lot from and will post some of those "dont's"...

[BigAl2007]

I think this image will help describe the new "Collector" series of UAS that use the "Drain" from your system to "Feed" the ATS



Opps... the forum removed the URL so no image was there LOL!

[_shorty_]

Al, I'd be interested to see what you're talking about if you could try again..

Okay - so my old scrubber I made - I thought initially was pretty slick...

http://reefcentral.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=209339&stc=1&d=1351745178
http://reefcentral.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=209340&stc=1&d=1351745178

It's a 29gal - using a 5gal bucket as a sump (top cut off so more of a 4 gallon bucket). Water flows from sump up pipe along the wall and through slotted horizontal pipe and down the screen inside the acrylic box, then drains back down into the tank near the surface of the water. Screen is held up into the slot using the cut up PVC pieces making small 'C' shapes that pivot around through the screen to hold it.

Obviously - the question is - how do you get the screen out?.. I made a little acrylic handle that slides through a hole in the middle near the top of the screen to 'grab' it for removal and replacing it. It works... but in practice it is a pain getting the screen back in the slot when sometimes it wants to bend and not stay straight.. and then every once in a while falls off the little handle I made.. So that's why I don't like the slotted pipe... I think a better solution would be to have flexible pipe leading into the horizontal pipe so I could pull the whole pipe out a bit and grab the screen.. maybe, i don't know.

Another complaint about the slotted pipe method - is that it restricts flow as growth forms on the outlet.. I'm sure there are ways to block this .. I tried a couple attempts, but didn't try all too hard. I have a toothbrush bent at 90 degrees to clean the slot when i take out the screen for cleaning each week.

Another lesson learned: I didn't use any unions (I think they're called)... so I that I could easily screw apart my plumbing and remove the scrubber for a good cleaning. SO.. that's never been done in the two years that it's been running. You can probably tell by the pics. I could cut it and fix that - but I'm lazy...

I think that the whole thing is less effective over-all because I can't clean it well... If I stay on top of cleaning my screen - my levels stay good - 0 on eveyrthing except .25 ppm phosphates - pretty steady.

Alkalinity seems to get sucked up quickly with the A.S. (a lot more quickly than calcium)..

I do like the above tank set-up as i've read that it should provide better source of undamaged pods for tank... don't know if that's true or not...

One thing I do notice is that the water IS yellowed a bit. don't normally tell - but if you run carbon for a little while you can definitely tell a difference. Learned a lesson about running too much carbon, and I think it pulled a bunch of the trace elements out of the water and before I knew why - I lost some zoo colonies and other coral weakened.

I also deal with cyano bacteria... the scrubber hasn't removed that... each morning when lights first turn on, the tank looks pretty decent - but through the day it comes back with a vengance. I have suspicion that my marineland 24-30" LED fixture is contributing to this... as I never had this issue before that fixture. I was also running the blue LEDs only for a while which I think compounded the issue.. the cyano isn't AS bad since I stopped doing that.

[_shorty_]

So my new design is on my new 115 I made...

Above tank design again... (first attached pic)
Initially I was working off of the original sizing specifications when I made this.. so it's bigger than it has to be... about 7" wide, by 15 x 15. Made out of 1/2 plywood and acrylic.

Water flows up the 1" pipe from (mag 12 in 20gal sump below tank) - splits into two 1/2 inch pipes and enters at top of box. Water level is a few inches from the top of the box. There are two screens - one on each side that are easily accessed from the top/lid and can simply be pulled out without turning any water flow off (see example in 3rd pic). Water flows out slotted pipes that run horizontally near the top of each screen. An acrylic insert (attached to the 'lid') allows me to drop my light down in between the screens below the water line. Recently added - was the addition of acrylic inserts that hang down into the box, which create a 1/2" 'flow' channel for forcing the water to flow down through. My air stones are attached to the bottom of these acrylic channels... You can KIND of see that in the 2nd pic - The white part on the left is my full syphon overflow back to the tank - and above that - you can see the acrylic insert that houses the light fixture. to the right of the pic is the bottom of the 1/2" acrylic 'flow' channel with air stone wire-tied (for now) at the bottom.

So the idea is that a good amount of water flow forced down over the algae screens (which introduces a good amount of air bubles by itself), while the UAS concept of submerged screens with upflowing air bubbles still exists. I need a better air pump though. Had a really old one that I threw on and it's really not enough for both stones.

Just finished up my LED light fixture this week, BTW - and it's sweeeet.. Pic is attached... It's two sided - 15 x 1w 660nm LEDs on each side - separate drivers so I have the flexibility of running the screens separately and on different timers. I'd read in the advance AS thread that it could potentially be bennificial to run for shorter intervals, and alternate two different scrubbers... I have the potential to play with that in this design.

So - in correcting some of the issues from my first design. I used union joints on ALL plumbing on the tank. It's not too hard to simply take the whole A.S. box down and clean it or work on it. Assuming the design works reliably - the screens are very easily removable for cleaning. The whole thing comes apart: Remove the light, pull off the lid, pull out my acrylic flow channels. Have the bennifet of the above tank design for undamaged pods to fall down into tank. no visible equipment IN the tank at all. Even my inlets into the tank come in through holes in the side wall of the tank through holes in what pretty much looks like rock. You can kinda see that in the display tank pic on the left wall (sorry it's not a very good pic) - front and back are glass, and both side walls are built up with painted pond foam to look like rock. The display is built into a bookshelf wall I made.. but that's not quite finished - you can see missing trim on the left.

The system was set up about 5 weeks ago and is 'cycling'... I had a bunch of old rock and equipment I bought 'used' from a lady that sold her whole 75 gallon setup for cheap.. got a good light fixture and a lot of LR out of the deal. But - I think the rock had a LOT of dead stuff on it - cause I've never seen such high levels of NH3 and NO3. NO3 has come down and leveled off at 20 for the past few weeks, while NH3 is continuing to come down and I suspect will be 0 within a week.. I'm assuming at that point, the NO3 will be eaten up by the A.S. and the amazing amount of hair algae that's developed in the display. After that, I'm expecting the scrubber to do it's job and out-compete the display algae until it goes away. I've only just within the past week raised the water level in the A.S., added the airstone, and added the LEDs. So I'm eager to see what those changes make.

[silverwolf72]

I really only have room to light it from one side. I'm going on 2 weeks and have a full green screen but not any 3d growth yet. Whats nice is being fed from the drains I get a nice surge of water and air from the air getting trapped along the way which I think will help once the growth really starts to get going.



http://reefcentral.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=6925&pictureid=47672

[_shorty_]

Ah.. so the flow is going down from the top? or in from that bottom PVC inlet? Where is the outlet for flow?

[silverwolf72]

Water comes in at the bottom where the PVC attaches(2 drains) and overflows on the left side with a bubble trap located in the middle( fixed water level with adjustable collection cup). I still use the collection cup on the skimmer which gets some of the chunkier stuff out.

[BigAl2007]

Al, I'd be interested to see what you're talking about if you could try again..


I tried again but RC is blocking the SM website I guess. That's where the image originated from. It's the same concept as above (highly aerated water from DT feeding the screen).

[silverwolf72]

I tried again but RC is blocking the SM website I guess. That's where the image originated from. It's the same concept as above (highly aerated water from DT feeding the screen).

Yeah found it on another forum, basically same idea. the skimmer just has a bubble trap built in

Just searched for collector UAS reef in google

[_shorty_]

Yeah found it on another forum, basically same idea. the skimmer just has a bubble trap built in

Just searched for collector UAS reef in google

Found it. Thanks. Interesting idea.

So - been testing several scenarios with my setup.
1) ATS vs UAS algae growth
2) All Red LED vs Red & Blue mix (currently running all red - blue on order)
3) Velcro screen vs standard (just started that one last night)

For discussion of ATS vs UAS - I currently have the water level in my A.S box raised up to the point where I have about 1/3 of my used screen working like a one sided ATS, and the rest submerged with air stone underneath.

So far I'm not 100% happy with growth overall. Last week I cleaned my screen down to the bone so I could measure growth better and the first 4 days or so grew fairly quickly, some brown slime with some GHA mixed in. Then the growth just seemed to stop! I don't have any livestock in the tank yet - and my nitrates have dropped in that week from 25ish ppm down to about 10ppm which I'm guessing is when my growth slowed down to a crawl..? I threw in a food cube this morning to see if it would help.

A little background - Running my setup with ATS style only - using CFL bulbs - I started my system out with 'used' live rock which started my NH3 and NO3 levels VERY high. NH3 came down gradually over a 6 week period to 0, and NO3 came down over the first 3 weeks or so to 25-30ish ppm and leveled off until the NH3 was completely gone (which was this past weekend). And now the NO3 has reduced to 10ppm as of last night (about 4 days later). So my guess is that I'm starting to starve out my A.S. which is most likely scewing the results I'm getting so far.

But despite all that, it would seem I am getting better/quicker growth above water level than I am under (more GHA to brown slime ratio and thicker longer GHA) - which is the same for the second screen I just cleaned off a couple days ago. That was just 1.5 weeks of testing, though. So, more to come. Getting close to being able to transfer my livestock from old 29 gallon into my new 115g tank which is the tank that the scrubber that I'm testing on is connected to - so that should help with the testing - to keep nutrient levels up and provide more consistent and reliable results.

[Camineet]

hey sillverwolf can I trouble you for an update on your CPR project? I'm thinking of trying that too.