Melting vs. Self-Cleaning?

[modernREEF]

Here's the problem: zoas commonly close up to clean themselves, and they also commonly close up to melt away like the delicate little princesses that they are :spin2:

I was hoping to get a discussion going on how to tell the difference. It seems that getting the melting colony out and dipped right away is one of the major factors governing success. On the other hand, taking colonies out and dipping when they were just closing to clean is unnecessarily stressful.

So what's the difference? So far I notice brown slime on the ones that are melting vs. none on those that are cleaning. Also, the general shape of the zoa is withered if melting and still 'plump' if cleaning.

Any other indications?

[organism]

This is the first I've ever heard of zoanthids commonly closing for "cleaning" during the day. They close at night, I imagine if there's any cleaning to be done that's when they do it. I think you might be confusing them with leathers, which do occasionally close for shedding.

[ibtigr33]

There can be many reasons why your zoas are closing. Have you checked your water parameters lately? If I'm being lazy, my zoas will let me know my water change is due or something is out of whack.

[modernREEF]

Hmm, it wouldn't be my parameters, I've got 60-70 different types of zoas/palys, around 1500 individuals, and I'm talking about a small fraction of them being affected at any given time. Also, my clams and anemone tend to tell me if anything is up.

I've seen the cleaning referenced by Bob Fenner and on other boards.

Melting only seems to happen with smaller frags. I avoid anything under 3 polyps, but it still happens with a greater frequency to 3-15 polyp frags. The cleaning I'm talking about happens with frags, but more so in mini- and medium-colonies. They can be closed for a few weeks even and then open up fine.

p.s. Since I don't like when people say there water is fine without giving params: SG-1.026 Alk-10 Ca-415 Mg-1300 pH-8.2 PO4-0.05 NO3- 2-5 I-0.08

[Pallobi]

I had a 200 polyp colony of red hornets that jus melted over the last 2 months... Size seems not to matter IMO...

[modernREEF]

I had a 200 polyp colony of red hornets that jus melted over the last 2 months... Size seems not to matter IMO...

That's interesting, I haven't had something that big melt. Is that an exception or does it happen regularly?

[ryeguyy84]

I currently have a colony of 50ish that are coming back after being closed for a few weeks. not to sure what happened.

[A. Grandis]

I would like to understand what the " self-cleaning" means.
I'm sorry, but I'm lost here.

Grandis.

[modernREEF]

I would like to understand what the " self-cleaning" means.
I'm sorry, but I'm lost here.

Grandis.

This is just the most commonly cited factor I've seen for zoas that close up for a few days/weeks and then open up fine. Keep in mind that I'm talking about cases where everything else (ie. the 'easy problems to fix') have been considered and you have a healthy tank with healthy zoas, some of which will occasionally close up as I've described.

I suppose it could be something else, but some sort of internal process, whether it's digestion and reconstruction of an outer layer or something else makes the most sense.

In practice, I'm looking for any indicators that a zoa colony is going to melt when it has first closed (and remained so for, lets say, a day), as opposed to open back up fine. This would inform whether or not to dip.

[650-IS350]

They can just close up for a while... maybe too much sun already and full. closed up to use rest of energy to consume rest of the photosynthesized food.

I've had colonies in between other colonies close up for days and even weeks for no reason then open up again without cause. pH, Alk, temp everything all good.

[A. Grandis]

This is just the most commonly cited factor I've seen for zoas that close up for a few days/weeks and then open up fine. Keep in mind that I'm talking about cases where everything else (ie. the 'easy problems to fix') have been considered and you have a healthy tank with healthy zoas, some of which will occasionally close up as I've described.

I suppose it could be something else, but some sort of internal process, whether it's digestion and reconstruction of an outer layer or something else makes the most sense.

In practice, I'm looking for any indicators that a zoa colony is going to melt when it has first closed (and remained so for, lets say, a day), as opposed to open back up fine. This would inform whether or not to dip.

Well, I think "self-cleaning" is a miscommunication. LOL!
I'm sorry, I still don't understand why you call "self-cleaning". It could be any other name then, correct? I don't know of any "self-cleaning process" of zoas. Sorry for my ignorance. They do eat, poop, open/close, breed, etc. All part of their normal metabolism, I've never noticed anything externally visible that would tell me any "self-cleaning" on my zoas, even when they're closed for a while. Some times they close for loooong time and there is nothing wrong.

Ok, talking about the practical part, there is no visual differences during the first 24 hours of closing to melting versus closing "just because".
I would determinate if the polyps need dipping only after I see some real evidences that they do have any type of injuries, bacterial/fungal infections, excess algae, pox or other visual problems. Please keep in mind that each problem needs one type of dipping and therefore there is no need to dip any zoas just because it is closed for more than 24hr.
Does it make sense to you?
Hope that helps.

Grandis.

[modernREEF]

Well, I think "self-cleaning" is a miscommunication. LOL!
I'm sorry, I still don't understand why you call "self-cleaning". It could be any other name then, correct? I don't know of any "self-cleaning process" of zoas. Sorry for my ignorance. They do eat, poop, open/close, breed, etc. All part of their normal metabolism, I've never noticed anything externally visible that would tell me any "self-cleaning" on my zoas, even when they're closed for a while. Some times they close for loooong time and there is nothing wrong.

Ok, talking about the practical part, there is no visual differences during the first 24 hours of closing to melting versus closing "just because".
I would determinate if the polyps need dipping only after I see some real evidences that they do have any type of injuries, bacterial/fungal infections, excess algae, pox or other visual problems. Please keep in mind that each problem needs one type of dipping and therefore there is no need to dip any zoas just because it is closed for more than 24hr.
Does it make sense to you?
Hope that helps.

Grandis.

Sure we can drop the 'self-cleaning' hypothesis, it's just what I've seen commonly cited, not something I've seen hard evidence for.

Let me clarify that I'm not suggesting there are any external signs that self-cleaning is occurring, just that a self-mediated event of some sort, likely involving biological 'house-keeping' would be the most likely reason for these closing events.

Could you elaborate on specific dips for specific problems? I dip with hydrogen peroxide and/or coralRX, with some Coral Revive in the solution as well. Which visible problems should correspond to each dip? Any dips I'm missing?

[A. Grandis]

Ok, I believe what you're talking about is a stage of the metabolism of the zoas, when they close without any injury/predation/infection, but to tell you the truth it is so hard to know if they close for this or that reason, so... The observations and records of what have been done in the system in each case will tell you tons.
Again we play with variables here all the time, remember?
From system to system, with different species, and so on...
My answer then would be: depends.

In regards to the dips, there are mainly 4 types of reasons I know of:
1) Preventive/ introductory -> Coral RX, Lugol's dipping.
2) Excessive algae around/on polyps -> Hydrogen peroxide dipping.
3) Bacterial/fungal infections -> Lugol's solution dipping.
4) Pox -> Furan 2 dipping. (I believe I didn't have pox yet!)

Some of the dips are to remove different types of bugs too, like Coral RX.

Many people use the products I've mentioned for different types of problems and that's perfectly fine... If it works, it works!
This is the way I do with mine, generally speaking, and every situation is very unique in regards to the dosage and time for the dippings.

Others will post interesting tips for you, if they are willing to.
I would like to hear from them too...

Hope that helps a bit.

Grandis.

[KafudaFish]

Has anyone looked at dips and the chances of zoas melting "for no reason"?

[A. Grandis]

Has anyone looked at dips and the chances of zoas melting "for no reason"?

LOL!! There will aways be a reason behind any zoa melting.
I guess most of the time they call the "no reason melting" when there is a strong bacterial infection that "eats up" the polyps very fast.
There is no apparent reason for the bacteria to attack the zoas, so they say that because they didn't do anything wrong.
It's almost like a "wasn't my fault" melting!!
I've felt like that couple of times in the past. :thumbsup:

Grandis.

[modernREEF]

In regards to the dips, there are mainly 4 types of reasons I know of:
1) Preventive/ introductory -> Coral RX, Lugol's dipping.
2) Excessive algae around/on polyps -> Hydrogen peroxide dipping.
3) Bacterial/fungal infections -> Lugol's solution dipping.
4) Pox -> Furan 2 dipping. (I believe I didn't have pox yet!)

Some of the dips are to remove different types of bugs too, like Coral RX.

Grandis.

Any thoughts on whether Coral Revive should be added to these solutions to decrease the overall stress of the procedure?

[A. Grandis]

Any thoughts on whether Coral Revive should be added to these solutions to decrease the overall stress of the procedure?

I've never used ReVive. I use the Brightwell's Restore.
I don't dip them in a "Restore solution" or anything, but use very small amounts of Restore on the regular basis for the whole system.

I believe that good water flow would be enough most times to make them open without any problems after fragging and dipping them, or after dipping for diseases/ introductions.

Perhaps others could give you some advice on ReVive.
I would like to hear from them also...

Grandis.

[Pallobi]

That's interesting, I haven't had something that big melt. Is that an exception or does it happen regularly?

Lmfao... I must jus be lucky... And my 40 polyps of purple hornets... Toast... Wonderful... Lol... Love this hobby sometimes :rolleyes:

[Pallobi]

Oh, and my 200 polyps of bam bam oranges...

Some guys are jus lucky ;) lol...

[Pallobi]

And before some folks think I'm killing new peices, every one grown from a single polyp or two... And then a straight decline... Sometimes its so hard to tell what happens and your jus left scratching your head...

[MUCHO REEF]

Here's the problem: zoas commonly close up to clean themselves, and they also commonly close up to melt away like the delicate little princesses that they are :spin2:

I was hoping to get a discussion going on how to tell the difference. It seems that getting the melting colony out and dipped right away is one of the major factors governing success. On the other hand, taking colonies out and dipping when they were just closing to clean is unnecessarily stressful.

So what's the difference? So far I notice brown slime on the ones that are melting vs. none on those that are cleaning. Also, the general shape of the zoa is withered if melting and still 'plump' if cleaning.

Any other indications?


It's true, you're polyps will indeed periodically retract as a means of cleaning themselves externally. See # 25 in the link below.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1154238&highlight=25+reasons+why+your+polyps+won+t+expand+

When every single inch of rock in my tank was covered with over a hundred mature colonies, like clockwork, I would have periodic retraction. It occurred every 3 to 4 months. It would last 3, 4 to 7 days. I would say 70% of my polyps would do so throughout the year every year. Some as short as 2 or 3 days. I never worried because I knew my system and never lost a single colony which experienced retraction. I take that back, I did lose one or two which were sick when I purchased them.


So how can you differentiate common polyp retraction from polyp declining/melting etc ? There are several ways.

1. Polyp retraction is just that, retraction. There will be no physical changes other than retraction. It's common and it happens. I am a firm believer in keeping a daily log. I know how, when and where to expect certain colonies which will retract. Like someone said above, just listen to your reef and document what your reef tells you. See link below.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=785651&highlight=mucho+log




2. Polyp degredation/melting/decline will exhibit several charactoristics.

a. The polyp will begin to shrink in size.
b. It will begin to disintergrate.
c. It wil begin to bleach even while retracted.
d. Cuticle will begin to flake off.
e. If able to remove it, it will begin developing a very foul odor.
f. They will begin to detach from the rockwork.
g. Erect polyps will collapse and fall on their sides.


The one thing along when keeping a log which greatly helps and isn't discussed often enough is husbandry.

I feel there is far far far too much dipping going on these days. If a single polyp doesn't expand, the conventional wisdom now is to run a prepare a dip.
Why? If that were the case, I would be dipping every single week and that's no fun.


I hope this helps, good luck my friend.


MUCHO REEF
TOTM - August 2003

[MUCHO REEF]

"When every single inch of rock in my tank was covered with over a hundred mature colonies, like clockwork, I would have periodic retraction. It occurred every 3 to 4 months. It would last 3, 4 to 7 days. I would say 70% of my polyps would do so throughout the year every year. Some as short as 2 or 3 days. I never worried because I knew my system and never lost a single colony which experienced retraction. I take that back, I did lose one or two which were sick when I purchased them."


I forgot to add that during these periodic and predictable retractions that I experienced over the year due to the very reason I listed above, not once did I resort to dipping. I did however perform a dip with new arrivals, on a couple of occasions when I acquired nudis and a couple of times when I indeed had a few sick colonies. But I never dipped just because my polyps didn't open today.

I personally am not against dips, just the misuse of them just because polyps didn't expand today.


MUCHO REEF
TOTM - August 2003

[A. Grandis]

It's true, you're polyps will indeed periodically retract as a means of cleaning themselves externally. See # 25 in the link below.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1154238&highlight=25+reasons+why+your+polyps+won+t+expand+

When every single inch of rock in my tank was covered with over a hundred mature colonies, like clockwork, I would have periodic retraction. It occurred every 3 to 4 months. It would last 3, 4 to 7 days. I would say 70% of my polyps would do so throughout the year every year. Some as short as 2 or 3 days. I never worried because I knew my system and never lost a single colony which experienced retraction. I take that back, I did lose one or two which were sick when I purchased them.


So how can you differentiate common polyp retraction from polyp declining/melting etc ? There are several ways.

1. Polyp retraction is just that, retraction. There will be no physical changes other than retraction. It's common and it happens. I am a firm believer in keeping a daily log. I know how, when and where to expect certain colonies which will retract. Like someone said above, just listen to your reef and document what your reef tells you. See link below.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=785651&highlight=mucho+log




2. Polyp degredation/melting/decline will exhibit several charactoristics.

a. The polyp will begin to shrink in size.
b. It will begin to disintergrate.
c. It wil begin to bleach even while retracted.
d. Cuticle will begin to flake off.
e. If able to remove it, it will begin developing a very foul odor.
f. They will begin to detach from the rockwork.
g. Erect polyps will collapse and fall on their sides.


The one thing along when keeping a log which greatly helps and isn't discussed often enough is husbandry.

I feel there is far far far too much dipping going on these days. If a single polyp doesn't expand, the conventional wisdom now is to run a prepare a dip.
Why? If that were the case, I would be dipping every single week and that's no fun.


I hope this helps, good luck my friend.


MUCHO REEF
TOTM - August 2003

Hi MUCHO!!
How're you doing?

I saw the list. Thanks for link!!!
I just need to ask you... why do the zoas clean themselves externally?
What do they clean themselves of?
Is that part of their normal metabolism?
Do you see anything coming from them, like old skin or films?
I just want to understand, 'cause I never see anything myself.
I thought the people were just trying to put a name on the event or something.

Thanks very much in advance.

Grandis.

[A. Grandis]

"When every single inch of rock in my tank was covered with over a hundred mature colonies, like clockwork, I would have periodic retraction. It occurred every 3 to 4 months. It would last 3, 4 to 7 days. I would say 70% of my polyps would do so throughout the year every year. Some as short as 2 or 3 days. I never worried because I knew my system and never lost a single colony which experienced retraction. I take that back, I did lose one or two which were sick when I purchased them."


I forgot to add that during these periodic and predictable retractions that I experienced over the year due to the very reason I listed above, not once did I resort to dipping. I did however perform a dip with new arrivals, on a couple of occasions when I acquired nudis and a couple of times when I indeed had a few sick colonies. But I never dipped just because my polyps didn't open today.

I personally am not against dips, just the misuse of them just because polyps didn't expand today.


MUCHO REEF
TOTM - August 2003

Hi again,
I understood what you've meant about the dipping and I would hope others would understand as well.

My question again would in regards to the self cleaning...
Do the polyps do that only when they are very tight like clockwork, as you've mentioned? Or they could do the self cleaning while still on plugs? Sometimes they look like clockwork even on plugs too, so...

Sorry for some many questions.
Very good subject!!!
Thanks very much for the info and for the posts!!
:thumbsup:

Grandis.