Miracle mud

[trueblackpercula]

Starting over with my reef tank and would like to know if miracle mud is good to start a for a refugium?
Anyone with experience please let me know.

[allsps40]

I have used it on some tanks and not on others and I never saw a difference with anything to show that there is something special about MM. Spend your money else where IMO.

[trueblackpercula]

I have a remote sand bed already should I just add the plants?

[allsps40]

The only time I have seen MM be of use is when growing mangroves in a fuge or raceway. What kind of plants??

[G4546]

If you are looking to grow SPS I would avoid the MM. There are many other threads revolving around this question of MM in a SPS reef. If you are trying to grow mangroves as allsps40 stated, I would then possibly look into MM (though it's expensive and IMHO a waste of money). SPS and swamp water don't mix. :)

[trueblackpercula]

Thank you for your advice.....I do have a remote sanded in the sump and was going to turn it into a refugium. I just didn't know if I needed the MM or not so now it's off to the local store to pick up some mangroves and calurpa and a small light. Anything I am leaving out?

[trueblackpercula]

Here is a picture of the sump with the sand bed.....I know it needs cleaning as the tank has been neglected for sometime now.

[Alex T.]

If you are looking to grow SPS I would avoid the MM. There are many other threads revolving around this question of MM in a SPS reef. If you are trying to grow mangroves as allsps40 stated, I would then possibly look into MM (though it's expensive and IMHO a waste of money). SPS and swamp water don't mix. :)

I can't say I agree with this. There are many successful, drop dead gorgeous SPS tanks that have miracle mud in their refugium. Chingchai (who needs no introduction) is probably among the most elite reefkeepers in the hobby, and has always run Miracle Mud refugiums on his SPS tanks. I've never used Miracle Mud, so I won't comment on its' effectiveness one way or the other. It's definitely an interesting concept, and I really don't think introducing Miracle Mud is going to hurt someone's system, or keep them from being able to color up and grow SPS corals.

Some people say it's very good at growing mangroves and macro algae. Isn't that the whole point of a refugium? Allowing marine algae and other plants a good starting point to take root and establish themselves gives them the ability to grow and take up nutrients, while providing a safe haven for pods and other "gentler" life a chance to breed and feed the display tank. Using Miracle Mud isn't going to lower your nitrates and phosphates over night. With the current low nutrient craze, I think people downplay the effectiveness of a more subtle nutrient export means simply because it's not immediate gratification. Deep sand beds work, but as time goes on they can eventually become like leeching septic systems. Even if you can take the DSB offline and remove it to start over, it's still a PITA to go through it all. Some people like a shallow sand substrate, and some go the mud route. Leng Sy has come up with a very unique filtration method that has been proven to work. His display tanks and many others are proof positive that it can be done, and still is being done. Where I think most people fail with the miracle mud refugium method is simply not having a large enough refugium. A small baffle in a sump will minimally help filter an SPS tank, but plumbing in a separate refugium altogether, given enough time, has the ability to remove a large amount of nutrients from an aquarium, and could be an attractive display all on its' own.

[trueblackpercula]

Well thanks you for confusing my decision again LOL.....

[sirreal63]

If you google miracle mud and inland aquatics, you will find where a couple of different places did an assay on it and found it to be mostly terrestrial dirt with a high silica and iron content. In both of the tests I remember they found no evidence at all of it having come from the ocean, no shell fragments and not of a calcium base. There have been a few reports of it being a great substrate for seagrasses or a Caulerpa bed. As far as the product actually doing anything beneficial, I have never seen anything to indicate that it does, other than providing a little iron for chaeto which you can do yourself for a lot less money.

It also appears to be of no harm either, being mostly quartz. If anything it has a placebo effect for you, a nice monetary gain for the seller and packager. Sadly it is like many products in this hobby, designed to do nothing other than separate you from your money.

[sirreal63]

This may help...follow the links.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showpost.php?p=19558346&postcount=14

[trueblackpercula]

Now that's amazing no need for miracle mud at all and I will just be using my remote sand bed to convert it into a refugium. Also is it wise to use a refugium and dose vodka?
Thanks

[sirreal63]

If your macro algae is still growing in the fuge, then there is no reason to remove it, it is still a place with no predation that allows pods to grow. Carbon dosing doesn't always negate the benefits of a fuge, that is if you can keep your macro's growing. I don't run a dedicated fuge, but do still have a sheet of Chaeto in the sump.

This hobby is over run with companies marketing products that just are not needed, (insert your favorite Brightwell gimmick here) and there are plenty of people looking for short cuts and think that these products will somehow enable them to do things they could not do otherwise. Additives, supplements, garden soil and such aren't really needed. What is needed, and this has always been the case, is good husbandry, good maintenance and a desire to learn. We have made advances in the hobby in the past 10 years, and that will continue, but I have never seen it come in a colorful package with a shiny new name.

[toothman]

Well said SIRREAL63, I went to the pet store yesterday and the checker asked if that bottle on the counter is also mine, I said no and It is just baking soda in a bottle anyway, for $10. She said shush! do not tell anyone.

[allsps40]

Here is a picture of the sump with the sand bed.....I know it needs cleaning as the tank has been neglected for sometime now.

It is best to leave it alone actually.

[allsps40]

If your macro algae is still growing in the fuge, then there is no reason to remove it, it is still a place with no predation that allows pods to grow. Carbon dosing doesn't always negate the benefits of a fuge, that is if you can keep your macro's growing. I don't run a dedicated fuge, but do still have a sheet of Chaeto in the sump.

This hobby is over run with companies marketing products that just are not needed, (insert your favorite Brightwell gimmick here) and there are plenty of people looking for short cuts and think that these products will somehow enable them to do things they could not do otherwise. Additives, supplements, garden soil and such aren't really needed. What is needed, and this has always been the case, is good husbandry, good maintenance and a desire to learn. We have made advances in the hobby in the past 10 years, and that will continue, but I have never seen it come in a colorful package with a shiny new name.
Very well stated sir, very well stated.

[trueblackpercula]

Well here is my original build thread http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=746233&pp=25

After two power outages and no time my tank crashed and I gave up on it for almost 2 1/2 years. All I did was top off the tank with tap water and feed the 3 yellow tail damsels and the two clownfish until sandy hit us and lost power for the third third time. But this time power was lost for 5 days and all but one damsel was left. So I decided for a few days that it was time to take the tank down and turn it into a planeted discus tank......well when I opened the door to the fish room and noticed the chiller,the mrc mr2 protein skimmer, dosing pumps and all the lighting I said to myself naaaaaaaaaa I going back into reef keeping.

So here I am cleaning the pool of bubble algae and hair algae everywhere. All the entire water chemistry is out of wack so it will be a long road ahead before any SPS a purchased.

So I did at one time use vodka and it worked well for me but was a daily chore that some days I just could not get to. That's when I noticed on an amazing tank on reefcentral with a refugium and have been reading about them for days.

With that Said I am trapped /torn between vodka dosing and the refugium filter. What has everyone's expericans been with that? I am leaning more to Vodka then anything so I would love some guidance on this.

Here are a few pictures of what a neglected reef tank looks like,,,,,,

[trueblackpercula]

Here's another shot before the cleaning began.

[trueblackpercula]

Some reason the pictures are being uploaded sideways....hahahahaha

[G4546]

I can't say I agree with this. There are many successful, drop dead gorgeous SPS tanks that have miracle mud in their refugium. Chingchai (who needs no introduction) is probably among the most elite reefkeepers in the hobby, and has always run Miracle Mud refugiums on his SPS tanks.

Agreed, he needs no introduction :). Though for how simply you state he uses MM, I'd have to respond simply with, I'm sure you've seen the filtration system he uses ;) I wouldn't attribute his system to the miraculous use of what is called Miracle MUD before I would to his impressive (understatement) filtration ;).

[Alex T.]

Well here is my original build thread http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=746233&pp=25

After two power outages and no time my tank crashed and I gave up on it for almost 2 1/2 years. All I did was top off the tank with tap water and feed the 3 yellow tail damsels and the two clownfish until sandy hit us and lost power for the third third time. But this time power was lost for 5 days and all but one damsel was left. So I decided for a few days that it was time to take the tank down and turn it into a planeted discus tank......well when I opened the door to the fish room and noticed the chiller,the mrc mr2 protein skimmer, dosing pumps and all the lighting I said to myself naaaaaaaaaa I going back into reef keeping.

So here I am cleaning the pool of bubble algae and hair algae everywhere. All the entire water chemistry is out of wack so it will be a long road ahead before any SPS a purchased.

So I did at one time use vodka and it worked well for me but was a daily chore that some days I just could not get to. That's when I noticed on an amazing tank on reefcentral with a refugium and have been reading about them for days.

With that Said I am trapped /torn between vodka dosing and the refugium filter. What has everyone's expericans been with that? I am leaning more to Vodka then anything so I would love some guidance on this.

Here are a few pictures of what a neglected reef tank looks like,,,,,,

As a former vodka/carbon doser I can tell you that it's not a cure all in the least. Vodka and vinegar work very well for nitrates, but I had to eventually get a phosphate reactor and run GFO when nitrate was limited. It's almost as if you're tipping the scale in one direction and then phosphate gets an opportunity to rise. I periodically battled cyanobacteria, bacterial mats, large clumps of sand and periodic starvation of SPS corals. I could also tell that my clams didn't like carbon dosing in the least. That being said, I feel that Zeovit gets much closer to a manageable system with established benchmarks that the aquarist to watch for before moving to the next step, and then you tweak coloration, polyp extension, etc. from there. I never went that route because I don't have that kind of time, nor do I care to invest that kind of money in supplementation whose ingredients are unknown.


Agreed, he needs no introduction :). Though for how simply you state he uses MM, I'd have to respond simply with, I'm sure you've seen the filtration system he uses ;) I wouldn't attribute his system to the miraculous use of what is called Miracle MUD before I would to his impressive (understatement) filtration ;).

I agree with you 100%, but I still would love to know why Chingchai uses the mud if it's worthless. I'm not a Miracle Mud Disciple, but I'm not going to write it off as snake oil either. People say it's totally unnecessary, terrestrial in composition and a waste of money. That's fine...but snake oil? Somewhere there's a barebottom SPS system owner who laughs at everyone that uses that snake oil called live sand in their display tank.

Display tanks do very well with Miracle Mud or sand in the sump. It's preference really. I for one would much rather have a shallow sand of mud than a 6 inch deep sand bed that I may eventually have to take off line when it starts releasing nutrients back into the system. All I really see Leng Sy doing is offering a product that helps macro algae grow so they can take up nutrients and provide more microfauna for pod eating fish and corals to feed on. Miracle Gro helps your garden produce some fine, colorful tasting produce and beautiful flowers. Can you do without it? Sure, but I have seen the difference when my wife and I use the Miracle Gro product line. If Mr. Sy can offer a 10lb jar of mud for $80 then God bless him. If nobody saw a difference in their systems, his Ecosystem product line would have been a thing of the past by now.

Again, I've never used it, but I have seen some darn good SPS tanks with Miracle Mud in their refugium.

[trueblackpercula]

Ok Alex T what is it you recommend for a reef tank?
Thanks

[sirreal63]

Alex, it isn't snake oil, it is mostly inert, meaning the majority's of it has no effect at all, there are uses for it, seagrasses do well in it, the iron content can help boost macro algae for a while, but the fact that there is no evidence of it being from a marine origin and the mfg claims that 80% of it is, well, dishonest. The people who claim success with it, would have had the same success without it because the product is mostly quartz. Brilliant marketing can never make a product more than it actually is. It just separates people from their money.

[Alex T.]

Ok Alex T what is it you recommend for a reef tank?
Thanks

I'm no expert, so I can't recommend one methodology over another. All I can do is tell you how I arrived where I am now...

I had a 24/7 lit refugium on my first 29 gallon mixed reef. I did however have a skimmer. It had a Caribsea Mud substrate and chaetomorpha. Everything did ho-hum, but SPS in such a small water volume were hit or miss. I attributed much of that to being a newbie, alkalinity swings (didn't know how important stability was) and inferior lighting for SPS (150 watt 14k halide).

In my second tank, I set it up very similar, but my focus was on SPS and clams. This is when I got into carbon dosing. My chaeto slowly melted away as nutrients were consumed by the bacteria driven system. It was my first big tank (72x18x27) 150 gallons), and SPS corals started to grow very rapidly. Slowly, over time, I ran into recession from the base of many corals, cyanobacteria outbreaks and phosphate creeping up over time while nitrates were never even measured. Aside from this, I realized my clams did not like being in a ULNS system. I came to learn that vodka/vinegar dosing handles nitrates very well, but phosphates tended to creep up. By the time I installed a GFO reactor, my SPS were suffering, and hair algae became a losing battle. I learned a lot from that tank. The first thing I learned was that my corals did best as nitrates were falling and chaeto was dying out. The second thing I learned is that once I hit undetectable nitrates, my corals got pale, and I had to feed more, or add amino acids. This became a balancing act, as the more I fed, the faster cyanobacteria crept up. I also learned that liverock can only bind so much phosphate before it leeches it back into your system and causes all sorts of problems. GFO stressed corals even further, and I just lost the will to battle it after 3 years. I tried and combined so many methods that I confused myself...let alone my tank.

I promised myself that on my current tank, patience and adherence to one methodology would be my mantra. I tend to over think things and change my mind too many times once something doesn't seem like it's working. I chose to go with much less rock than most would recommend. I have under 100 pounds in a 197 gallon tank, with 80 pounds of sand. In a six foot tank, my aquascape only occupies the middle four feet of the tank, with two small islands. I expect (hope) my SPS will grow into these spaces, as I've provided them with ample room for growth, with much more water volume available with less rock. All my rock is from my previous tank, but was purged of phosphate bound to its' surfaces with a 10:1 muriatic acid bath solution. This was the best move I ever made. The tank took a long time to cycle, as I had dead, dry rock and dry sand. I have no pods, and no life other than what I've introduced. Some might say the biodiversity is missing in my system, but I don't notice it at all. I just let it naturally take its' time with a raw shrimp that slowly rotted. I didn't want a lot of fish in the system, and I believe I'm on the moderate side of fish stocking for my water volume. I chose fish that interest me, and one that has been with me a long time (Achilles Tang, Copperband Butterfly, Bipartitus Leopard Wrasse, Tomato Clownfish, 1 Dispar Anthias, 1 Lyretail Anthias, a Fiji Blue Devil Damselfish and a Bellus Angelfish). Everyone appears to be doing well after 6 months, and I expect to add no more fish. I also feed these fish very well.

I currently run a modified Berlin System with a powerful skimmer (Bubble King Supermarin 200), GFO and Carbon in a reactor, tons of flow (4 Vortech MP40's and a Tunze 6105) and do a 30 gallon water change with natural seawater every 2 weeks that I collect from a local jetty on an incoming high tide. I don't chase numbers in parameters, but rather keep them pretty low and stable...especially for an SPS system. My calcium hovers between 400-420, Magnesium between 1200 - 1250, and dKH between 7-8. Some would say these are low nutrient or Zeovit parameters, but they also happen to be natural seawater's parameters in my area. I can handle the demand right now with a kalk reactor, and being that I run 400 watt Radiums, the evaporation rate is enough for now until my calcium reactor needs to be brought online. I keep my nitrates between 2-5, and phosphates around .02 on my Hannah Checker. My SPS are growing slow and steady, which is fine by me as long as they're happy and coloring up. Having some nutrients in the water has proven to be a good thing for my system...within reason. I think too many SPS keepers feel less skilled if they can't achieve 0 nitrates and phosphates. This level of sterility never worked for me, so I'm not interested in trying it again.

If I had a more mixed reef, I may have run a refugium, and wouldn't have been averse to adding a mud substrate, as it has worked for me before. However, for a predominately SPS and Clam system, I didn't see the need to add one, and it wouldn't have gone with my simplistic approach. I want to be able to control my system easily, and if it has too many moving parts and things to check, I may wind up screwing with it more than I should. Right now I just change a filter sock, scrape the glass, stir the sandbed, turkey baste the rocks, empty the skimmer cup once a week, feed the fish twice per day, add kalk to my kalk reactor once per month and do 2 water changes per month. That's enough for me. If I had to worry about how my refugium was doing, it's just one more spoke in the wheel that I don't see I need or want to introduce.

Basically, I think you just have to decide what type of system you want to have, mimic a setup that successfully achieved those goals and go with it. Instability and change in methodologies isn't a great thing in this hobby. These forums are a great resource, but sometimes they can fuel an unnecessary call to action instead of staying the course. There are so many ways to run a reef tank that it can get confusing. I think changing too many things and experimenting on delicate animals is a recipe for disaster. If you really want to run a refugium (which you are), then mimic one that's easy to run and maintain. There are great SPS tanks out there that are bare bottom, vodka dosed, run a refugium, have mud, have sand, differ in lighting, or any combination of these. They obviously all work. Find what interests you, and is easy to maintain, and exercise a degree of patience to let it happen.

[sirreal63]

Basically, I think you just have to decide what type of system you want to have, mimic a setup that successfully achieved those goals and go with it. Instability and change in methodologies isn't a great thing in this hobby. These forums are a great resource, but sometimes they can fuel an unnecessary call to action instead of staying the course. There are so many ways to run a reef tank that it can get confusing. I think changing too many things and experimenting on delicate animals is a recipe for disaster. If you really want to run a refugium (which you are), then mimic one that's easy to run and maintain. There are great SPS tanks out there that are bare bottom, vodka dosed, run a refugium, have mud, have sand, differ in lighting, or any combination of these. They obviously all work. Find what interests you, and is easy to maintain, and exercise a degree of patience to let it happen.

100% agree! Look at some of the tanks here that have been running long term, like Emster's tank and see that you can do this without any "miracle" products, just good husbandry and an understanding of what is actually happening in a tank. Long before all of these wonder products became vogue people managed to have beautiful tanks. Go back to the first TOTM and see what every tank has used since and you will get an idea that there are many ways to run a system, none is right and none are wrong but they may be different. Before you add any product to your system, do some heavy research.

[trueblackpercula]

I'm no expert, so I can't recommend one methodology over another. All I can do is tell you how I arrived where I am now...

I had a 24/7 lit refugium on my first 29 gallon mixed reef. I did however have a skimmer. It had a Caribsea Mud substrate and chaetomorpha. Everything did ho-hum, but SPS in such a small water volume were hit or miss. I attributed much of that to being a newbie, alkalinity swings (didn't know how important stability was) and inferior lighting for SPS (150 watt 14k halide).

In my second tank, I set it up very similar, but my focus was on SPS and clams. This is when I got into carbon dosing. My chaeto slowly melted away as nutrients were consumed by the bacteria driven system. It was my first big tank (72x18x27) 150 gallons), and SPS corals started to grow very rapidly. Slowly, over time, I ran into recession from the base of many corals, cyanobacteria outbreaks and phosphate creeping up over time while nitrates were never even measured. Aside from this, I realized my clams did not like being in a ULNS system. I came to learn that vodka/vinegar dosing handles nitrates very well, but phosphates tended to creep up. By the time I installed a GFO reactor, my SPS were suffering, and hair algae became a losing battle. I learned a lot from that tank. The first thing I learned was that my corals did best as nitrates were falling and chaeto was dying out. The second thing I learned is that once I hit undetectable nitrates, my corals got pale, and I had to feed more, or add amino acids. This became a balancing act, as the more I fed, the faster cyanobacteria crept up. I also learned that liverock can only bind so much phosphate before it leeches it back into your system and causes all sorts of problems. GFO stressed corals even further, and I just lost the will to battle it after 3 years. I tried and combined so many methods that I confused myself...let alone my tank.

I promised myself that on my current tank, patience and adherence to one methodology would be my mantra. I tend to over think things and change my mind too many times once something doesn't seem like it's working. I chose to go with much less rock than most would recommend. I have under 100 pounds in a 197 gallon tank, with 80 pounds of sand. In a six foot tank, my aquascape only occupies the middle four feet of the tank, with two small islands. I expect (hope) my SPS will grow into these spaces, as I've provided them with ample room for growth, with much more water volume available with less rock. All my rock is from my previous tank, but was purged of phosphate bound to its' surfaces with a 10:1 muriatic acid bath solution. This was the best move I ever made. The tank took a long time to cycle, as I had dead, dry rock and dry sand. I have no pods, and no life other than what I've introduced. Some might say the biodiversity is missing in my system, but I don't notice it at all. I just let it naturally take its' time with a raw shrimp that slowly rotted. I didn't want a lot of fish in the system, and I believe I'm on the moderate side of fish stocking for my water volume. I chose fish that interest me, and one that has been with me a long time (Achilles Tang, Copperband Butterfly, Bipartitus Leopard Wrasse, Tomato Clownfish, 1 Dispar Anthias, 1 Lyretail Anthias, a Fiji Blue Devil Damselfish and a Bellus Angelfish). Everyone appears to be doing well after 6 months, and I expect to add no more fish. I also feed these fish very well.

I currently run a modified Berlin System with a powerful skimmer (Bubble King Supermarin 200), GFO and Carbon in a reactor, tons of flow (4 Vortech MP40's and a Tunze 6105) and do a 30 gallon water change with natural seawater every 2 weeks that I collect from a local jetty on an incoming high tide. I don't chase numbers in parameters, but rather keep them pretty low and stable...especially for an SPS system. My calcium hovers between 400-420, Magnesium between 1200 - 1250, and dKH between 7-8. Some would say these are low nutrient or Zeovit parameters, but they also happen to be natural seawater's parameters in my area. I can handle the demand right now with a kalk reactor, and being that I run 400 watt Radiums, the evaporation rate is enough for now until my calcium reactor needs to be brought online. I keep my nitrates between 2-5, and phosphates around .02 on my Hannah Checker. My SPS are growing slow and steady, which is fine by me as long as they're happy and coloring up. Having some nutrients in the water has proven to be a good thing for my system...within reason. I think too many SPS keepers feel less skilled if they can't achieve 0 nitrates and phosphates. This level of sterility never worked for me, so I'm not interested in trying it again.

If I had a more mixed reef, I may have run a refugium, and wouldn't have been averse to adding a mud substrate, as it has worked for me before. However, for a predominately SPS and Clam system, I didn't see the need to add one, and it wouldn't have gone with my simplistic approach. I want to be able to control my system easily, and if it has too many moving parts and things to check, I may wind up screwing with it more than I should. Right now I just change a filter sock, scrape the glass, stir the sandbed, turkey baste the rocks, empty the skimmer cup once a week, feed the fish twice per day, add kalk to my kalk reactor once per month and do 2 water changes per month. That's enough for me. If I had to worry about how my refugium was doing, it's just one more spoke in the wheel that I don't see I need or want to introduce.

Basically, I think you just have to decide what type of system you want to have, mimic a setup that successfully achieved those goals and go with it. Instability and change in methodologies isn't a great thing in this hobby. These forums are a great resource, but sometimes they can fuel an unnecessary call to action instead of staying the course. There are so many ways to run a reef tank that it can get confusing. I think changing too many things and experimenting on delicate animals is a recipe for disaster. If you really want to run a refugium (which you are), then mimic one that's easy to run and maintain. There are great SPS tanks out there that are bare bottom, vodka dosed, run a refugium, have mud, have sand, differ in lighting, or any combination of these. They obviously all work. Find what interests you, and is easy to maintain, and exercise a degree of patience to let it happen.

Well thank you for sharing so much information. I have been reading for days and nights and I have decided to go with deep sand bed and vodka dosing for now. I have shown you my skimmer and it is working perfectly for my needs. I will continue to keep you up to date as I progress. I started dosing the vodka last night .04 mls I have also started using a 4 stag RO/DI filter and reef crystals salt mix for water changes. I think it will be about a month before sps can go in the tank. I did add 4 emerald crabs yesterday and they are cleaning the rocks nicely. What else oh I have a 400 watt aqua connect bulb on an ice cap ballast with 150watts of VHO 03 bulbs. It will be a long road to recovery but this time I am going to take it slow. I measured my PO4 and nitrates yesterday and they were both high and the dkh was 7 so thanks again for your advice and help.....

[G4546]

I'm not a Miracle Mud Disciple

Display tanks do very well with Miracle Mud or sand in the sump.

Again, I've never used it.

May I ask why you favour the product? Not necessarily over another, just why you seem to lean towards backing the ecosystems product?


"If I had a more mixed reef, I may have run a refugium, and wouldn't have been averse to adding a mud substrate, as it has worked for me before. However, for a predominately SPS and Clam system, I didn't see the need to add one, and it wouldn't have gone with my simplistic approach. I want to be able to control my system easily, and if it has too many moving parts and things to check, I may wind up screwing with it more than I should. Right now I just change a filter sock, scrape the glass, stir the sandbed, turkey baste the rocks, empty the skimmer cup once a week, feed the fish twice per day, add kalk to my kalk reactor once per month and do 2 water changes per month. That's enough for me. If I had to worry about how my refugium was doing, it's just one more spoke in the wheel that I don't see I need or want to introduce."

However, I cannot agree with you more on this entry :thumbsup: (well stated mate) :)

[Alex T.]

May I ask why you favour the product? Not necessarily over another, just why you seem to lean towards backing the ecosystems product?


"If I had a more mixed reef, I may have run a refugium, and wouldn't have been averse to adding a mud substrate, as it has worked for me before. However, for a predominately SPS and Clam system, I didn't see the need to add one, and it wouldn't have gone with my simplistic approach. I want to be able to control my system easily, and if it has too many moving parts and things to check, I may wind up screwing with it more than I should. Right now I just change a filter sock, scrape the glass, stir the sandbed, turkey baste the rocks, empty the skimmer cup once a week, feed the fish twice per day, add kalk to my kalk reactor once per month and do 2 water changes per month. That's enough for me. If I had to worry about how my refugium was doing, it's just one more spoke in the wheel that I don't see I need or want to introduce."

However, I cannot agree with you more on this entry :thumbsup: (well stated mate) :)

It's not that I favor it over any other method. I just don't see the point in speaking bad about something when there are plenty of successful tanks that run Miracle Mud. Many say its' contents are terrestrial. So what? I routinely feed live blackworms to all my fish, and without them, my Copperband Butterfly would never have started eating other frozen foods. It's predominately quartz. So what? Is the quartz killing these Ecosystem reefs? Mirace Mud offers a good, simple refugium substrate that helps grow macro algaes that help take up nutrients and offers a safe haven for pod life and plankton that can help feed a tank. I'm sure a fine sand can do it too, but I don't see a lot of people showing skimmerless reefs with only sand substrate in their refugium. However, I've seen plenty of Ecosystem displays do this.

Now that I think about it, I run GFO and Carbon in my reef and I have no idea if its' ingredients are of marine origin, but they work very well. If you told someone 20 years ago to dump alcohol (vodka), or acid (vinegar) into their aquariums because it would help lower organics they may have laughed at you. I've never run Miracle Mud, but I have run a mud substrate in my sump before when I had a refugium without crashing my tank. I had great growth and polyp extension and it was my first tank.

[vitz]

leng sy is a snake oil salesman :P

miracle mud is a proven crock as stated above-it's literally backyard soil

99% of all 'additive products' sold for this hobby are unnecessary bs-ever count how many supplements 'can't marine' sells for your tank's 'benefit'? if i used them all i'd be dosing so much i wouldn't have time to clean glass heh

can i interest you in an 'eco-aqualizer'? ;)

[G4546]

can i interest you in an 'eco-aqualizer'? ;)

:lolspin::lolspin::lolspin:

[vitz]

i find it kinda tragicomic that there were folks keeping 'reef' tanks well before the late '70s w/not one 'additive' product, and keeping them fairly well,yet the mass of hobbyists are able to get suckered in to buying so much CRAP.

anyone remember the Kordon 'mod-four' modular cannister filter w/ detachable uv unit? decades ahead of its time, heh'

then there was the penny in a small mesh bag that was marketed as an ich 'cure-sold fer about 5 bux, heh

'the marine aquarium in theory and practice' by emmens from late '70's is one of the best basic beginner books ever printed for this hobby-it included sketches of how to mod an air box filter into a skimmer, iirc :)

[elegance coral]

I just don't see the point in speaking bad about something when there are plenty of successful tanks that run Miracle Mud.

There are plenty of "successful" tanks out there that hobbyists do really bad things to. The fact that a system is "successful" and it has MM in it, does not show that MM has anything to do with that success. The system may be successful in spite of the MM, and not because of it.

I'm 46 years old, in pretty good shape, and I smoke. I'm not in good shape because I smoke though. I'm in good shape in spite of the fact that I smoke.



Many say its' contents are terrestrial. So what? ......... It's predominately quartz. So what?

This shows that the manufacturer is lying about what they're selling to the hobby. Now that we know they will lye to sell their product, why would anyone in their right mind trust in them or their product?


Mirace Mud offers a good, simple refugium substrate that helps grow macro algaes that help take up nutrients..........

So, we add nutrients to grow algae, so they will take up more nutrients?????:confused:

This is like adding more fire to your house so firefighters will have more fire to put out.



I'm sure a fine sand can do it too, but I don't see a lot of people showing skimmerless reefs with only sand substrate in their refugium. However, I've seen plenty of Ecosystem displays do this.

That's because people don't have false advertising pushing them to run skimmerless with only sand substrates.



Now that I think about it, I run GFO and Carbon in my reef and I have no idea if its' ingredients are of marine origin, but they work very well. If you told someone 20 years ago to dump alcohol (vodka), or acid (vinegar) into their aquariums because it would help lower organics they may have laughed at you.

No one is claiming that GFO, carbon, vodka, or vinegar are of marine origin. The makers of MM do falsely claim their product is of marine origin.

[elegance coral]

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2089061&highlight=ecosystems

I know the above link may be a long thread, but it should answer all your questions about this product and way of maintaining a reef system.

Hope it helps
EC

[salty child 79]

A lot of what is now land was once covered by water. So technically it is of ocean origin.

I think chingchai might use it because when he first started he might have used it. It possibly provided him with success, so he continues to use it. I always had success with fuges and skimmers so I still use them.


So in light of this argument, I got ahold of a ecosystem hang-on fuge and miracle mud just to see what its all about. I have never ran it before, but have been wanting to setup my 40g for a few months. No skimmer, no vodka, just calcium, alk, and mag. I will keep you all updated on the success of my snake oils.

[grcforce327]

Is wet kitty litter considered a miracle mud?:artist:

[grcforce327]

I want to be able to control my system easily, Right now I just change a filter sock, scrape the glass, stir the sandbed, turkey baste the rocks, empty the skimmer cup once a week, feed the fish twice per day, add kalk to my kalk reactor once per month and do 2 water changes per month. That's enough for me.

That has got to wear you out! I'm exhausted just reading it!:spin2::spin1:

[sirreal63]

A lot of what is now land was once covered by water. So technically it is of ocean origin.


It doesn't really work that way. Read the assay and the conclusions, the lack of any oceanic remains pretty much tells the story. Adding quartz to your tank will have no effect on the chemistry of the tank, the small iron content can help algae and some people add iron to the tank for that purpose, but it isn't theMM making a difference, it is the nutrient uptake by the macros that is doing the work. It is one of many unneeded products that is designed to separate the aquarist from his money while offering immeasurable benefits.

[salty child 79]

If it was free would you rather use the mud or sand?

[salty child 79]

Also, I read the article on reefs.org but would like to see a similar test done on aragonite sand, or whatever is recommended for fuge substrate. If aragonite has higher concentrations of all of the trace elements then that would be the obvious choice. If anyone has an analysis please give a link. Thanks!