Fast/slow growers, really?

[MUCHO REEF]

A Discussion & Poll, please contribute


Do you believe there are some polyps which are genetically predisposed faster or slower growers than others from the same or diverse regions?

I spent the day reading on many forums the varying opinions of many. I've seen it hundreds of times, Timmy Tightwad from Tennessee touting his common blue zoanthids as the most explosive growers he has ever seen. Yet in another thread Billy Ray Rich Reefer who says just the opposite as his identical blue zoanthids haven't produced a single poylp in an entire year.

The discussion/debate over this topic has loomed for years now. I have my own opinion and have shared it many times before, but for the sake of discussion, I'd like to hear what you think. Please, no fights, darts, missles or attacks on anyone's position, just share your opinion. Please share why you feel that way and then cast your vote. Thanks.

Remember, PLEASE VOTE up top

MUCHO REEF
TOTM - August 2003

[rogersb]

I have a softball sized rock that I put a paly(chrome paly?), an AOG, and a green(dragon eye?) zoa on several years ago. The AOG grew but not quickly. The green grew quickly but not quick enough. And the paly has totally covered the rock. I know they're different than zoas, but when people discuss these things usually both are lumped together. I also have AOG in a slightly lower area with even less growth than the ones over run by palys.

Besides fast/slow growers I think some are perpetual melters. I have bam-bams that grow to 100+ then melt back to 20 or so. Usually happens when they get to around 100 then over a couple of weeks they melt away and the process starts again. I have some others that act similarly.

[Dmorty217]

Have a 2 head frag of Rastas that I purchased 2 months ago, there are now 6 heads and 2 more that haven't shown color just yet. Pink and golds grow fairly quick too. With that being said everyone's tank is different and variations from one tank to the next can be so drastically different you would expect different results for different tanks/people. Something that grows well in one tank might only kinda grow in another

[funkejj]

Our Orange bam bams went from a frag of 5 to a colony of several hundred with in about 9 months. Our AOG's went from a frag of 6 to about 100 in about 3 or 4 months but I have others that I don't know the name of that we bought a frag of 10 a month ago and we have 11 now. So yes some grow really fast and others don't

[650-IS350]

he lives ....... LOL Mooch

[KafudaFish]

My 2 pennies:

Overall there are four schools of thought in regards to growth:

Slow growth occurs in times of nutrient stress.
There is a trade off of growth rate and development when it requires a mature functioning body.
Rapid growth occurs when a minimal size must be reached quickly for reproductive purposes.
There is rapid growth that has compensated for slowed growth due to environmental conditions.

I bet most can think back and nod your head in agreement as to these situations occurring within your system.

I think we fall into the trap of thinking that all zoas are the same and if we provide the same conditions for each one then each color morph should be identical in their growth patterns even though we can take two frags of the same color morph, put them in different areas in our tanks and see different behaviors. As the example states one reefer has great growth while the second reefer is sitting there waiting for the water to boil.

Overall why should they grow at the same rates if they came from different parts of the world or even different parts of the reef?

On the flipside, two systems will have different physical environments that impact the biological community and it is these differences that affect growth rates. Yes there are some general trends in zoa growth but who waits around long enough to see anymore?

Also just how do you quantify the difference between a fast and a slower grower? Price tag? Bubble gum name with the words LE, Rare or JF added to make it sound like a slower one? If you watch the RC livestock for sale forum there is a pretty consistent pattern of who sells what and when. Finally there was a rare and LE sps frag that was suppose to be a slow grower that started being sold here on RC maybe 2 years ago for big bucks like $150-200/inch. Now some of those people who bought the first or second generation frags and selling them too and they report that this sps is actually a fast grower. What changed?


Take home messages: if your system is not conducive to support growth then you will not have it regards if the zoas are dull browns or the next big thing and not all systems can support the same color morph with equal results compared to another system even though they appear to be “identical”.

Ok maybe that was more like a dime's worth.

[MUCHO REEF]

Well, I hope I didn't botch my poll question which should have stated this...

Do you believe there are some polyps which are genetically predisposed faster or slower growers than others from the same or diverse regions?

That is the question.

Charles, I knew this post would lure you out, that's why I did it. And did you think I was dead or something :) Btw, that thing we talked about has worked out very well.


Mooch

[Dmorty217]

I think it depends on how many times the piece has been fragged and grown and fragged etc... Better suited for tank life. As far as if you went to the region in which these naturally grow and were to take a colony or frag of one then find one on the other side of the same reef and do the same, it is possible that one would grow faster and be better so to speak. Not sure how you would ever determine which were genetically better but it would be awesome if someone could figure that out��Save the reefs

[KafudaFish]

I think it depends on how many times the piece has been fragged and grown and fragged etc... Better suited for tank life. As far as if you went to the region in which these naturally grow and were to take a colony or frag of one then find one on the other side of the same reef and do the same, it is possible that one would grow faster and be better so to speak. Not sure how you would ever determine which were genetically better but it would be awesome if someone could figure that out��Save the reefs

It has been shown that in marine bacteria the amount of RNA content is strongly correlated with growth rate. Though it maybe a leap up to this level of complexity it could be similar.

[Pushwood]

I took 1 polyp of Red People eaters, and one polyp of Radioactive Dragoneye's, and the PE's have already spouted 4 new polyps in 2 weeks. While the Dragoneye is still 1 lonely polyp

[650-IS350]

Good to know Mooch

[Jarred1]

Hey Mucho, how's it going?

I believe that it all depends on the water parameters. The zoas have to have different growth rates under different conditions because in the wild the mats of zoas a usually of the same polyp. That leads me to believe that the space was out competed by that certain zoa. I also agree with kafudafish.

Jarred

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2


Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2

[Mr D smack]

Here is a growth contest our local club is doing with AOGs.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2223849

[buddythelion]

Yes, definitely.

[MUCHO REEF]

Hey Jarred, how's it going, long time man?


So I would say that one day into this pole, the consensus ( just over 80% ) of you feel that there are indeed specific polyps which inherently grow faster and those which inherently grow slower by virtue of who and what they are? And we are speaking of the exact same polyps whether they are palythoas or zoanthids just as Timmy Tightwad and Billy Ray Rich Reefer are speaking of in my initial post above? Just want to understand everyones viewpoint.

Thanks to all who have and will reply. Instead of just saying yea or nay, can you share your opinion why? Let's make it a discussion. :thumbsup:


MUCHO REEF
TOTM - August 2003

[A. Grandis]

Well, I hope I didn't botch my poll question which should have stated this...

Do you believe there are some polyps which are genetically predisposed faster or slower growers than others from the same or diverse regions?

That is the question.

Charles, I knew this post would lure you out, that's why I did it. And did you think I was dead or something :) Btw, that thing we talked about has worked out very well.


Mooch
Nice thread!! :thumbsup:

I voted yes.

I believe that different species of zoanthids can grow faster than others mainly because of their natural differencies in adaptation to the environment they are found. When we put the zoanthids in a tank they will be vulnerable to the conditions we offer, so the polyps normally found in environment similar will thrive a little faster. There are many different types of environments that zoanthids come from and only the collector would know.
It's so good when we find the common denominator (temp, water flow, params, etc...) for all the species we want to keep!!! :D

That way, some places in the wild will develop a population of predominant zoanthids species found in that area. Normally those will have a very close genetical relationship among themselves (mother colonies and daughter colonies found in the same geographic area). In that sense, they could be considered generically faster growers than other existing species in the same environment with a slower growth, and vice versa.

Another thing is the size of the colony. Generally speaking, the larger the colony or "frag" the better chances for a faster adaptation and immunization aspects. But that has little to do with genetically related.

There is another truth though. Many zoanthids would adapt well to the conditions of many of the tropical set ups and would do very well after a proper adaptation period, with stability and the basics they need.

Just my US$.02.

Great thread!!!! :thumbsup:

Grandis.

[mayjong]

pink zippers= explosive growth (3p to 30+p in 3 months)
blue hornets= 3p to 6p in the same time frame

both frags are within 4" of each other....

[fshaqrmman]

For me personally..my blue tubs grow faster than any other zoanthid/paly that I have.

[ohchiz84]

i have what i think are radioactive dragon eyes (id say my colony went from 10-15 polyps to 30-40 since i got them ~8-12 months ago), whammin watermelons were slow growers for me i started with about 10, they probably got to about 15 over the course of a year and then mysteriously died, and i have some unnamed teal palys spreading like wild fire that went from 6-7 heads to about 15 right now in about a month

[ghostreef]

Depends on several factors, like lighting type/output, flow, and nutrient availability. Some organisms are just naturally more efficient at utilizing their environment..

[Friday Night]

Forget names, strains,origin etc
Consistent water parameters. Enough said.

[A. Grandis]

Depends on several factors, like lighting type/output, flow, and nutrient availability. Some organisms are just naturally more efficient at utilizing their environment..

The first aspect that came in my mind was the adaptation to the natural environment (previous post), because the question was related to the genetic aspect.

Now, another point of view on the subject...

The option "maybe" would be related to the "several factors" in the above post and more...

So I think if we look at the many variables that we could find, all different in many types of systems, we would see why there is so many different growth/reproduction rates within "same species" of zoas.
In that case, it really depends...
Plus, with all the cartoon names it's so hard to really know if they're talking about the exactly same species...

Even though it's not directly linked to the genetic pont of view, it's important in the growth/reproduction rates.

It depend on what direction you're looking at.
;)

Grandis.

[A. Grandis]

Forget names, strains,origin etc
Consistent water parameters. Enough said.

Friday, as aways, simplifying.
:beer:

Grandis.

[Misled]

I said yes. Those two that said maybe, that seems to just be a way to cop out. The thoughts about something only being four inches away though really doesn't matter. Par could vary enough either way which may affect it and same with flow. One may be doing wonderful, but a few inches away the par can drop or be just a bit higher, flow just a bit off because of something blocking it a little. Either may be exactly what a particular zoa wants and it just goes bananas. Take one part away and crap, it just sits there.

Shut up Mike.

[A. Grandis]

I said yes. Those two that said maybe, that seems to just be a way to cop out. The thoughts about something only being four inches away though really doesn't matter. Par could vary enough either way which may affect it and same with flow. One may be doing wonderful, but a few inches away the par can drop or be just a bit higher, flow just a bit off because of something blocking it a little. Either may be exactly what a particular zoa wants and it just goes bananas. Take one part away and crap, it just sits there.

Shut up Mike.

But the original question has to do with "genetically predisposed".
Your explanation is towards physical placement/PAR. Still valid though.
I think the two that said "maybe" didn't understand the question.
Good observation about the PAR!

Grandis.

[MUCHO REEF]

Ok, we are starting to stray a bit. Allow me to put this in real time terms that we see applicable everyday/everywhere and put this back on track. I gave a perfect example in my original post of Timmy and Billy Ray in my first post :D . We've all heard there are a host of polyps being categorized, labeled, sold and traded both here and on every other reef site as (fast/very fast growers). Conversely, there are those who have stated there are a host of polyps which are slow growers, extremely slow growers etc etc. I used the term genetic predisposition to get away from names as so many have multiple names and I hate them them all. So if you want to include or exclude genetics, the same with names or any other charactorization, that's ok with me. The question still remains below.

Do you believe we can honestly say, state, list agree or disagree that we can label some/all polyps as fast or slow growers?

If you have already voted and wish to change your answer either way, then post that answer here in this thread as you can only vote once above.

Hey thanks again to everyone for the feedback.


MUCHO REEF
TOTM - August 2003

[Misled]

But the original question has to do with "genetically predisposed".


That is what I said yes to. The comments about par and flow just go to some reasons some may multiply faster then the same in a given space even though they are 4 inches away in the same tank.

I guess I should say, when you get that right spot, where a specific zoa gets exactly what it wants, it can explode. Remove just a bit of par, flow or even a nutrient level change, and things "may" change. Some seem to still do ok with this, some don't, hence the "genetically predisposed" part.

[MUCHO REEF]

Good to see you stop by Misled. Maybe using that term was a bad choice of words on my part, so blame me for that. Thus I clarified myself in my above post.

Mooch

PS. On another note, 643 views and only 42 votes?

[Misled]

You'll see more of me here now Mooch. I'm changing out my tank. I've dumped my sps except for one. The leathers will be gone in the next day or so. For the next few years the tank will be set up for mainly zoas. Changed the halide to 20k to show off colors. I think I'm pulling my fuge if I don't see any growth soon. Just one of those things. Got tired of the old set-up.

[A. Grandis]

Ok, we are starting to stray a bit. Allow me to put this in real time terms that we see applicable everyday/everywhere and put this back on track. I gave a perfect example in my original post of Timmy and Billy Ray in my first post :D . We've all heard there are a host of polyps being categorized, labeled, sold and traded both here and on every other reef site as (fast/very fast growers). Conversely, there are those who have stated there are a host of polyps which are slow growers, extremely slow growers etc etc. I used the term genetic predisposition to get away from names as so many have multiple names and I hate them them all. So if you want to include or exclude genetics, the same with names or any other charactorization, that's ok with me. The question still remains below.

Do you believe we can honestly say, state, list agree or disagree that we can label some/all polyps as fast or slow growers?

If you have already voted and wish to change your answer either way, then post that answer here in this thread as you can only vote once above.

Hey thanks again to everyone for the feedback.


MUCHO REEF
TOTM - August 2003

The "(fast/very fast growers)" and "slow growers, extremely slow growers etc etc" labels are just one more commercial way to identify their "product$$$" IMO. Just like the cartoon name$$$.

It's getting a bit confusing now with the multiple meanings and different questions... :strange:
I think people already exposed their thoughts and perhaps you should stick with the "genetic predisposition" term for this thread. Other wise the pool won't be accurate.

Perhaps you could open a new thread with the new question:
Do you believe we can honestly say, state, list agree or disagree that we can label some/all polyps as fast or slow growers?
Just a suggestion. What do you think?
:thumbsup:

Grandis.

[MUCHO REEF]

There is no need to be confused, I simplified it as best as I can. It's a simple question, do you believe some polyps are fast growers and others are slower growers? I tried to simplify it for everyone to understand as others were kinda taking it somewhere else. My question never mentioned anything about variables, palcement, lighting etc. Why? Whenever I have read, seen witnessed the statement "they are very fast growers or they are very slower growers", the variables stated above were never mentioned. Thus I used the term inherent. Many here in this thread alone have stated some are faster growers and some are slow growers. I would love to hear why they feel the way they do either way.

MUCHO REEF
TOTM - August 2003

[A. Grandis]

Ok, no problem...
I was thinking mainly about the differences between the terms, but...

The way the feel is the answer why they believe their polyps are growing faster than others.
Most of the time that has something to do with the physical and chemical aspects of the tank, like the light and nutrients.
That's why is hard to put that aside when they answer, I guess.

It's a good and interesting subject! :thumbsup:
I'll be tagging along...

Grandis.

[nmouncey]

Hard to say for many reasons. Like someone stated...times of nutrient depletion...etc. Who is to know.

But one thing I have noticed pretty much across the board....when I frag Z and P....if I am going quick and treat them kind of rough, I would swear they have faster sprouting on the remaining colony. I'll carefully slide a new razor blade under a couple to slide them off their frag or rock...gently glue them down on their new home....and fine...nothing. They grow normally...the colony does too.

But if it's a day when I'm going quick....oppps...sliced one a little deep.....had to pull that one off a little harder than I like etc.....within a day or two, the remaining colony has sprouted 2-5 new heads.

At first I didn't think of it much...but then I started to look for it and am fairly convinced of it. Now I wonder if I am seeing a "fight or die" response? Like maybe when I am not as careful...they sense something is wrong and immediately begin to reproduce? No idea. Certainly not any kind of science to what I am reporting. But it is more than "hhhmmm...I think I saw...."

[zoafarm]

Compared to many of you I'm humbly a noob at this, but I'll throw in my 2 cents. My observations and many hours of reading, would say all thing being equal. Meaning that if each environment matched the environment that the zoas were taken from. I would have to say all zoas should grow at about the same rate.

However, this is an impossible task in the hobby, because each of us have different chemistry, par values, circulation, nutrients, mixed corals, ect. Basically, we build an environment we like: not an environment for specific species from same location. So, the REAL answer is there ARE fast or slow growers based on each individual system.

A friend and I bought the same 2 polyps frag 8 months ago. His frag has grown to approximately 6 polyps. Mine currently has about 15-25 polyps. Why? I have no idea. He has others that actually outgrow the same type in my tank.

Great discussion though, I'm sure I'm about to learn more. Thanks for starting the thread.

[Mr D smack]

I voted yes.

I put AOGs, Purple Hornets, and Red Hornets in the same day. The AOGs started out with 5 heads now has 11. Purple Hornets had 4 heads now have 6. The Red Hornets started off with 7 now have 9.

[amond003]

I think there are to many variables to honestly determine growth rates

[MUCHO REEF]

Anyone else care to leave a comment, opinion or a vote?


MUCHO REEF
TOTM - August 2003

[MUCHO REEF]

Thanks again to all who have replied and voted.

I've capsulized all of your most important points that have been stated in your post thus far. I've listed them below in preparation for tomorrow's discussion as we take this a bit further. The poll has ran a consistent high 80 % that there are indeed fast/faster, slow/slower growers in the zoanthus genus.

Stop my tomorrow and join the discussion :thumbsup:





Dmorty217 - I think it depends on how many times the piece has been fragged and grown and fragged etc... Better suited for tank life.

KafudaFish - It has been shown that in marine bacteria the amount of RNA content is strongly correlated with growth rate. Though it maybe a leap up to this level of complexity it could be similar.

Jarred1 - I believe that it all depends on the water parameters. The zoas have to have different growth rates under different conditions because in the wild the mats of zoas a usually of the same polyp.

A.Grandis - I believe that different species of zoanthids can grow faster than others mainly because of their natural differencies in adaptation to the environment they are found. When we put the zoanthids in a tank they will be vulnerable to the conditions we offer, so the polyps normally found in environment similar will thrive a little faster. There are many different types of environments that zoanthids come from and only the collector would know.
It's so good when we find the common denominator (temp, water flow, params, etc...) for all the species we want to keep!!!

That way, some places in the wild will develop a population of predominant zoanthids species found in that area. Normally those will have a very close genetical relationship among themselves (mother colonies and daughter colonies found in the same geographic area). In that sense, they could be considered generically faster growers than other existing species in the same environment with a slower growth, and vice versa.

Another thing is the size of the colony. Generally speaking, the larger the colony or "frag" the better chances for a faster adaptation and immunization aspects. But that has little to do with genetically related.

Ghostreef - Depends on several factors, like lighting type/output, flow, and nutrient availability. Some organisms are just naturally more efficient at utilizing their environment.
.
Friday Night - Forget names, strains,origin etc
Consistent water parameters. Enough said.

Misled - Par could vary enough either way which may affect it and same with flow.

zoafarm - if each environment matched the environment that the zoas were taken from. I would have to say all zoas should grow at about the same rate.

However, this is an impossible task in the hobby, because each of us have different chemistry, par values, circulation, nutrients, mixed corals, ect. Basically, we build an environment we like: not an environment for specific species from same location. So, the REAL answer is there ARE fast or slow growers based on each individual system.

A friend and I bought the same 2 polyps frag 8 months ago. His frag has grown to approximately 6 polyps. Mine currently has about 15-25 polyps. Why? I have no idea. He has others that actually outgrow the same type in my tank.
I think there are to many variables to honestly determine growth rates

How do you explain variables that we could find, all different in many types of systems, we would see why there is so many different growth/reproduction rates within "same species" of zoas.




MUCHO REEF
TOTM - August 2003

[MUCHO REEF]

Really hoping to get at least 100 votes.

Mooch

[Jarred1]

What discussion?! Lets get it started!

[NyReefNoob]

ugly brown palies grow faster then any other polyp out there lol.

mucho that question would be a hard to prove one. and people get confused from a paly to a zoa, i do feel the palies grow at a much faster rate then zoa's, now that would be a question also and why would they? alot of the test done reguardless how alike or close can never truelly be compared, for the simple fact of a inch differance in placement can effect everything

[MUCHO REEF]

Part 1


Remember the day you established your first tank or maybe even the current system you have, and the excitement of anticipated growth of your new acquisitions? Remember all the tanks you've viewed on line, in your LFS and via any research you might have performed with hopes of replicating those stunning reefs and their exceptional growth? Then it happened, your system didn't yield that growth, some no growth at all and still others whose polyps simply withered and crashed within days or weeks of arrival.

I created this thread/poll to help prove or dispel a prevailing belief. I will allow you to decide what is fact or fiction and hopefully we can continue to discuss it. We will respect everyone's opinion, good or bad, right or wrong, it's just an opinion ok?

The question remains, are their inherently fast and slow growers as it relates to zoanthids and palythoas in aquaria? In my opinion, I would say emphatically, NO, not in captivity/aquaria, but there’s a reason I say that. "But Mucho, my LFS, the on line vendor who sold them to me, the guy at the frag swap, all assured me when I purchased them that they were fast/slow growers". In my above post, you will see tons of very insightful feedback you all provided, great stuff by the way. I chose to wait before replying in hopes that many would do just that and say what I've always held to be true and have stated for nearly 10 years now. Definitive labels of fast and slow growers in captivity is a myth in my opinion and should be placed in the same category of most of what's in this link below. The specific captive care you give your tank is the sole determining factor in your polyps rate of growth and not by virtue of its name or label someone gave it. ( No disrespect to my reefing buddies who believe otherwise :). "Fast growers" is most often used as a marketing/selling tool, to generate excitement, because it’s what others have been told and the myth is perpetuated. Don't attack me, just read a bit longer and we can discuss it.


http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1590992&highlight=myth



Zoanthids and palythoas are found in the wild in diverse yet similar conditions throughout the world. Each of course is thriving in that particular environment which is obviously most conducive for optimal growth I would say or they wouldn’t be there or thriving at all in the first place. Keep in mind, even the vast oceans of the world themselves are not stable and there are varying degrees of flucuation of the exact parameters we strive so hard to maintain. Thus in the wild, I believe they will grow at their optimal rate due to optimal conditions or the conditions they thrive in. Keep in mind however that some of those conditions seem less then optimal or favourable to the average reefer. They've been found at depths of 5600 meters as well as in shallow tidal pools and being completely exposed during low tide. Some are thriving in pristine clear water while others have been discovered near sewage run offs. “But Mucho, you’ve proven nothing.” Hang with me a minute longer.


Take a look at this photo from the Kusu Island in Singapore. Notice the vast mature colonies proliferating in a carpet-like manner in every direction. Can anyone specify which ones are the fast growers and which are the slow growers? NO !!!!!! they are all thriving. Why?

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c251/MUCHOREEF9000/zoafield.jpg


Below you find a series of pictures from TCU’s tank.

In the first picture you’ll find a fairly decent size colony of zoanthids.

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c251/MUCHOREEF9000/TCU1-1.jpg

In the second picture you’ll notice what appears to be the same zoanthids which are now propagating like weeds across the substrate.

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c251/MUCHOREEF9000/TCU2-1.jpg

In this photo you’ll see propagation in every direction with exponential growth.

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c251/MUCHOREEF9000/TCU3-3.png

So why did I choose these photos? This particular morph is one of the first zoanthids I ever owned. Knock on wood, I was able to grow everything in my system to the point that every single inch of rock in my system was covered literally with thousands of polyps. I treated my tank as if it were another human and just treated it like a baby. I mean I could grow anything, I had the proverbial blue thumb. But guess what? I couldn’t grow this particular morph no matter how I tried. But wait a minute, everything else grew like weeds, so why not this particular zoanthid? I mean just look at the growth in TCU’s tank, isn’t it a fast grower by todays beliefs and standards? Doesn’t that mean it’s a fast grower? True enough, we don’t know the time frame of said growth in his tank, but it sure looks like a fast grower doesn’t it? Here’s my point, again, in my opinion, there is no such thing as a fast grower or slow grower in captivity, just variables which dictates growth rate, fast or slow, and that’s you, what you do and how you do it as it relates to your system. If something is a fast or slow grower by virtue of what you were told or its label, then it is going to grow as such in your tank, my tank and Peter’s tank. But we all know that doesn’t happen. More specifically, what dictates growth is tank maturity, lighting type, source, wattage, height of placement, thus PAR, parameters levels/readings i.e. PH, KH, Cal etc, salinity, minute fluctuations, nutrient levels/source, temperature, bio load, current and type, reduction of stress via keeping your hands out of your tank thus not fragging every new polyp you see, not moving your corals around constantly and overall sound husbandry is what will more specifically dictate your growth rate or growth at all.


Here’s a series of pics from my buddy Geoxman's tanks. Again, can anyone pic out the fast and the slow growers? Again, you can’t. What grows well in one tank, doesn't mean said rate can and will be reproduced by another.

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c251/MUCHOREEF9000/geo2-1.jpg

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c251/MUCHOREEF9000/geo4-1.jpg

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c251/MUCHOREEF9000/geo3-1.jpg



Pics of Archie's tank

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c251/MUCHOREEF9000/archie-1.jpg

What you can see are two very diligent reefers who listened to their systems and knows what thrives in their particular systems and what doesn’t. Every morph isn’t going to thrive in your or my system no matter what you do. Not because they won't survive in captivity, not because they are perpetual melters, but some require a slightly different parameter level than what you may or may not maintain or even have knowledge of. I have taken polyps which my buddy who locally told me they are impossible to keep, and they thrived in my tank. Conversely, I have given small colonies to local reefers who grew what I couldn't grow in my system. One was labeled a fast grower and the other a slow grower, yet both prospered in our own individual tanks in conditions best suited for optimal growth.

Zoanthids and Palythoas are not baseball cards or Beanie babies that we buy, place in our systems, then take them out, then trade, sell, buy a new set then repeat the process. In fact, the process of persistent movement, hands in your tank constantly and the lack of diligent husbandry is even more detrimental to your polyps in the short and long term.


If a polyp is a fast grower…then it’s a fast grower. No web site, no seller and certainly not even Peter the Polyp Pimp is going to tell you they are fast growers if you do A, B C and D. If it is a fast grower, then it’s going to grow fast in your tank, my tank and Peter the Polyp Pimp’s tank right? But his is not the basis of corals reproduce. There is no posted growth chart or scale of expected growth if you buy this polyp or that polyp. What grows fast in my tank doesn't necessarily mean it will grow equally as fast in your tank, and maybe not at all and vice versa.

We can now add to those variables which might be to the detriment or success of your growth rate, these factors. In 2005 we saw the beginning of excessive, redundant, improper and premature fragging of frags with the advent of names and sky high pricing which began in 2005. We now have 4 polyps on a plug being referred to as a colony and when the 5th polyp sprouts, it is chopped off. I have personally spoken to hundreds of reefers over the years here and on other sites as well as here in my own town whom had issues with growth. Through discussion via Q & A, the results of their polyp mortality, slow growth or no growth was due to many of those variables listed above. Yes, improper, excessive, premature and excessively redundant fragging will stunt growth rate and in many cases cause the very mortality we all try to avoid. Polyps which were sold as fast growers in fact never grew at all and most died within days. “Sorry, still not convinced yet Mooch.”


Some even say the more expensive they are, the slower they grow. Think about that, we’ll come back to it later.

Something else that truly makes me smile are all the list on the web There’s a list of the fast growers, the slower growers and the perpetual melters. There are those who will say emphatically that this or that particular morph can’t be grown in captivity………solely because they couldn’t, Billy Ray couldn’t and not even Peter. This simply means they did not meet the individual requirements for that particular polyp to thrive. Remember, diverse conditions, you can’t possibly meet the conditions to house every zoanthid and palythoa from around the world. I feel my success with growing polyps was due to the overt attention of just listening to my tank. Then tweaking my system and all of my parameters to find a happy medium for most all of what I acquired to grow and thrive to the point of explosive growth covering every inch of live rock.

I wrote this piece over a year ago, and believe it or not, most of it details exactly what many of you have stated in post #38 which is why I waited until today to reply. “Sorry Mooch, still not convince”.

Well, I’m not trying to convince you my friend, just stating my opinion is all. You don’t have to agree with anything I’ve said. I just want to spark a discussion on a topic of great interest and misperception.

Let’s take the ultimate test here for any skeptics. What if I told you, for every polyp or named polyp that someone has stated right here in this forum or any zoanthid forum as being a fast or slower grower, I can show you another reefers who has stated just the opposite about that exact same polyp. WHAAAT !!!!!! …how can that be true? Well, I’ve already done it, been doing it for years. Whenever I see or read that someone has stated something is a fast grower or a slow grower, I instantly begin to do some searching. If I didn’t find a polar contradiction right here in this forum, I took to the web and Googled it, other zoanthid forums and true enough, I always found that contradiction. As much as I hate names, stop here and search this forum and look at the growth experience of RASTAS.

I recently visited visited a region far away rom my home state. I stopped by a LFS there and just browsed. I struck up a conversation with a guy and sooner than later, it evolved into a discussion on growth. I listened as he pointed to a small frag of 10 polyps in the display tank and he told me those were rare and they are very slow growers and that’s why no one has bought them. My jaw dropped but I closed it quickly. I listened to the point of stopping him. I walked over to the store owner whom I had just spoken to for 20 minutes. I asked if I could pull up something on his PC. I went to a picture on line that I posted back in 2003. I then pointed to nearly 200 polyps of what he was purporting to be both rare and a slow grower. I assured him they were neither, but this is what he had been lead to believe for many many years.

Take a look at a collection of very informative threads on growth. There are many reefers who have contributed to these threads and there’s a vast array of knowledge, opinions and detailed information which I hope you’ll enjoy reading.


http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=729863&highlight=growth


http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1861820&highlight=fast+growers+mucho


http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1449744&highlight=growth+rate+goldmaniac


http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2148330&highlight=fast+growers+mucho


http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2223468


http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1975481&highlight=fast+growers+mucho


http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2117947&highlight=growth


http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=729863&highlight=growth


http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=729863&highlight=growth


http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2210927&highlight=growth



In closing, polyps can and will thrive in the wild. In captivity, their morphology can and will change due to all those growth variables Iisted above. Color, polyp size, length, growth rate, skirt length all are affected by what has been discussed in this thread.

That said, I’ll leave you with a quote by NyReefNoob regarding the topic of fast growers. “Mucho that question would be a hard to prove one”.

And I agree.

Thanks for taking the time to read along. Don’t shoot the messenger, just post your opinion even if it is a complete departure from my beliefs, I want to hear your opinion as well. I yield the floor.


MUCHO REEF
TOTM – August 2003


PS. I want to leave you with this picture of a mound of Palythoa Caribearum. Just listen to your reef, read and research as much as possible, keep your hands out of your tank, and just allow them to grow.

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c251/MUCHOREEF9000/palythoacaribeaorumgreebseamats.jpg

[MUCHO REEF]

One week left to cast your vote so don't be shy.

Mooch

[KafudaFish]

Mooch

I figured I would address this to you since you are running this pony show as the OP but as always anyone who has an answer please respond.

When this thread first started and I thought about my answer there was something that was in the back of my mind that was bothering me but I did not know what until I looked through the links. Though I have read them before and will again I have missed something important.

How do we define fast and slow growth? Because we are discussing growth we are discussing a rate therefore we are describing a change over a specific period of time.

Often people make statements saying they had a growth of 10 polyps in a month's time but not always. Exactly where is the break point between the two?

Also would you consider the size of the colony or frag as part of this?

For example we could say colony #1 had 1 polyp of growth per 5 colonial polyps per 30 days and colony #2 had 1 polyp of growth per 2 colonial polyps per 30 days.

Obviously #2 has a faster rate than #1 but is #2 a fast or slow grower?

This line of thinking is outside the original context of your question but it is relevant and another fun topic of discussion.

[MUCHO REEF]

Mooch

Yes sir

I figured I would address this to you since you are running this pony show as the OP but as always anyone who has an answer please respond.

LOL, that would be me runnin the pony :deadhorse1: LOL.

When this thread first started and I thought about my answer there was something that was in the back of my mind that was bothering me but I did not know what until I looked through the links. Though I have read them before and will again I have missed something important.

I'm all ears

How do we define fast and slow growth? Because we are discussing growth we are discussing a rate therefore we are describing a change over a specific period of time.

Hmmm, I was hoping those who make the claim or have made it in the pass in reference to fast growers would tell us just what rate of growth fast growers consist of. Since I don't believe there is a list of fast growers in captivity as the contradiction are many in both directions.

If Peter can produces 10 polyps on average or per month in his tank, and they have been labeled fast growers, then by virtue of this broad claim from Peter and the vendor he purchased them from, then 10 would be the minimal standard. I say if Timmy purchased those same polyps from the same vendor at the exact same time and date, he is not going to produce 10 polyps in the exact same time frame. I have seen it more times than you can imagine. Those polyps will not reproduce at the same rate in everyone's tank. It's not going to happen, yet when Peter sells his first 2 new polyps that he frags at the end of the month and sells them to Tina, they may very well grow at an even slower rate then Timmy's polyps who only produce 4 polyps that same month. The myth is then perpetuated and the trend continues.

Often people make statements saying they had a growth of 10 polyps in a month's time but not always. Exactly where is the break point between the two?

I have no idea my friend. I would hope those who make the claim would share their experience on this. I want to know what is the rate of growth that makes it a fast grower? I have seen something labeled a very fast grower and it didn't produce a single polyp in an entire year.

Patience is vital in reefing. I never spent a waking minute watching, waiting, counting, hoping my polyps would grow and neither did my group of local reefing buddies. We didn't split polyps, we didn't target feed either. My focus was and is husbandry, documentation, maintaining a strict maint schedule, keeping my hands out of my tank, watching my parameters and allowing my reef to do what it wanted to do and when. That's when I had explosive growth.

Also would you consider the size of the colony or frag as part of this?

Could you be more specific?

In my opinion, it doesn't matter. When I see these 2 and 3 polyps, not all but some, on a flat head plug being sold, they are telling reefers on the spot it is a fast grower. I have never heard anyone say it is a fast grower once it becomes a mother colony. So I guess I would say it doesn't matter. Shipping, bagging, moving, handling, dipping etc are all stressful albeit tolerable stress to new acquisition, thus they will need time to adjust, acclimate and settle in. This is why we see periodic retraction upon initial placement. ( btw, I know you know all of this already, just speaking in general here) I would say after this period, hey, I'll say let's give it a month, 30 days after that we should be seeing that fast growth that is labeled as, wouldn't you agree? But it just doesn't work that way.

LOL, I'm talking too much man, I wann know what you think. I want to just listen to what you guys/gals think and feel on this topic.

For example we could say colony #1 had 1 polyp of growth per 5 colonial polyps per 30 days and colony #2 had 1 polyp of growth per 2 colonial polyps per 30 days.

Obviously #2 has a faster rate than #1 but is #2 a fast or slow grower?

This line of thinking is outside the original context of your question but it is relevant and another fun topic of discussion.


I guess I want to here what a fast grower is before I reply. I had a rock slightly larger than a baseball that I seeded wih 6 red/burgundy polyps many years ago. I placed it in a sweet spot in my tank. In less than 2 months, that rock was covered. I even have a picture of it. That's not fast growth, that is steroid growth. So is the growth I had the standard? I did the same with a slightly smaller rock, it took about twice as long, even growing faster than mature and stable mother colonies. Again, since I don't believe there inherent fast growers, I would have to yield to the floor on this one.


I do see your point and would love to hear what you think my friend and thank you for your reply and feedback.

Mooch

[KafudaFish]

Thank you and I appreciate all your work.

I don't think you are going to get answers to your questions because:

1. There really isn't an answer ie no one really knows since it is subjective.
2. Those that may have an answer such as a seller really wouldn't want to give that answer would they? "But you said they were fast growers and I have had one new polyp in 6 months...."

As far as the specifics to my answer what I meant was if someone had a 100 polyp colony and it grew 1 polyp each month, they fragged it, and sold it, they could claim that this was a slow grower because it only increased by 1% each month.

If someone had a 1 polyp "mini colony" (ok I have never seen anyone call something that small a mini colony but I have seen a 4 polyp mini colony being sold) and gets 1 polyp growth each month then it increased 100%. Is this the "fast grower" that everyone talks about?

Again I don't know but I am interested in the subject. This reminds me of something that I wrote back in October that I need to post that relates to this and a few other subjects.


I will leave you with this: The physical environment shapes the biological community.


This is why restoration efforts are so difficult. You can keep reintroducing the community but if the environment cannot sustain it then time, money and resources have been wasted.

Sounds just like our systems doesn't it?

Take care.

[trinidiver]

good read

[MUCHO REEF]

Thanks again, and you said something that I will zero in on that sticks out like a tonga branch and that is this statement.

"1. There really isn't an answer ie no one really knows since it is subjective."


If no one knows, and it's purely subjective, then why is it so widely used and excepted, believed and repeated? It's no different then the over used terms, "Rare, lineage, JPDW, just released, limited edition one of a kind, new to the market, the ocean is only releasing 5 of these this year :lol2:, etc etc etc yadda yadda yadda. People are actually spending hard earned money buying corals based upon a misleading statement with expections of fast growth from polyps which won't and quit often perish to say the least. There are no guarantees in reefing. I agree that it is a subjective marketing label used for a purpose, much like all the others. I mean, we can't even quantify what a fast grower is.

I think we should take the discussion even beyond what a fast grower is since growth in one tank will never be replicated on a consistent basis in another. I can revert back to what everyone has posted thus far and what is listed in the links I provided above. We can further proceed with debunking the fast grower claim by doing the search as I stated above on that particular polyp which reveals the contradictions across the board. Then again, I could be 100% wrong. I just wanted to create a discussion is all. Hey, I tried.

There's another part of this that I would like to discuss with you, but me eyes are getting a we bit tired, LOL. Talk tomorrow my friend and thanks again.


MUCHO REEF
TOTM - August 2003

[MUCHO REEF]

Does anyone else have an opinion? Anyone?


Mooch

[Jarred1]

Thanks again, and you said something that I will zero in on that sticks out like a tonga branch and that is this statement.

"1. There really isn't an answer ie no one really knows since it is subjective."


If no one knows, and it's purely subjective, then why is it so widely used and excepted, believed and repeated?

I believe it is accepted because when people hear they are fast growers they buy them hoping to make their money back. It could also be that the people that get slow growth hates to admit they get slow growth for fear of people thinking they don't know what they are doing. With the so called slow growers people buy them thinking they are rare because they are slow growers hoping they can make the big bucks off of them.

It's no different then the over used terms, "Rare, lineage, JPDW, just released, limited edition one of a kind, new to the market, the ocean is only releasing 5 of these this year :lol2:, etc etc etc yadda yadda yadda. People are actually spending hard earned money buying corals based upon a misleading statement with expections of fast growth from polyps which won't and quit often perish to say the least. There are no guarantees in reefing. I agree that it is a subjective marketing label used for a purpose, much like all the others. I mean, we can't even quantify what a fast grower is.

I think we should take the discussion even beyond what a fast grower is since growth in one tank will never be replicated on a consistent basis in another. I can revert back to what everyone has posted thus far and what is listed in the links I provided above. We can further proceed with debunking the fast grower claim by doing the search as I stated above on that particular polyp which reveals the contradictions across the board. Then again, I could be 100% wrong. I just wanted to create a discussion is all. Hey, I tried.

There's another part of this that I would like to discuss with you, but me eyes are getting a we bit tired, LOL. Talk tomorrow my friend and thanks again.


MUCHO REEF
TOTM - August 2003

[kichimark]

I agree with the growth criteria being subjective. I have grown many morphs of zoas and palys over the years and I must also agree that is depends on many variables but one is key which I will mention later.

I remember when I fed my nightmare colony it exploded with new polyps (I no longer feed them...too lazy and no time with teaching). Before I had a chiller I would also notice different growth in my tank with seasonal changes with winter having "faster" growth (temp was usually around 82F with the heater). During summer the temp would swing several degrees daily and the growth slowed. Now here is another variable which I can not accurately answer since I do not recall but during the summer I would also buy more corals and move things around in my tank. In other words I had my hands in the tank more often during this period.

Since I now have a chiller I noticed a "steady" growth rate but I just let everything grow now and rarely go in the tank. I still notice differences with growth amongst the different morphs with the same par/fow/nutrients. This leads me to believe certain morphs/strains do have a tendency to spread faster but even the slower ones still spread and there are always exceptions. Going back to the main variable I believe contributes the most for fast/slow growth is STABILITY which not only includes water chemistry/flow/light but also as mentioned earlier in previous post to leave them alone. This is where growth becomes subjective since everyone has a different routine and expectations. Ah you know what I have learned this whole time honestly? JUST BE HAPPY IT HASN'T MELTED ON YOU :lol:.

[A. Grandis]

Does anyone else have an opinion? Anyone?


Mooch

Hi MUCHO!

There is one more observation to consider here. This thread is about growth rates and I was focusing directly on that (growth/reproduction of zoanthids) when I answered with my thoughts about the subject.

Well, after reading the last posts... I do have to point that if the original question/pool was essentially towards those marketing "fast/slow growing" cartoon names, the answer would be NO, of course. Just because those are just "last names" of the "cartoon first names", as you've pointed out. Agreed!!

I personally think that the discussion would be great if related to possibilities of better growth/reproduction rates instead focusing on the " cartoon names" and the crazy market $$$tuff that we see nowadays. Not saying that it was mainly for the cartoon names, bust bringing that up.

And yes!!! We're younger than that, my friend!! LOL!:D

Just couple more pennies into the bowl...

Good reading!!
Thanks! :thumbsup:

Please keep it rolling... :bounce1::bounce2::bounce3:

Grandis.

[MUCHO REEF]

It is indeed about growth, growth rate, reproductive rate, whatever you want to call it, it really doesn't matter Grandis. I simply used the names to help support my opinion on the topic. If you remove the names and titles I'd still have the same belief. I have seen these claims long before the advent of names in 2004/2005 and have also witnessed them recently even without a name being attached, so it doesn't matter. I'm simply referencing the claims of expectant growth rate. Regardless of what it is, what you want to call it or how it is labeled.....and based upon many who have replied inculding yourself earlier, said growth and rate of anything is based solely upon tank conditions and not by virtue of who and what it is.

I didn't want to post all the threads I have found here and on other forums and trust me there are many, but I'll share just one. Again, if you do a search on the description, a picture or a name of anything, you as well will find a thread that states my ___________ never grow and another that says the exact same _____________ grows like weeds on steroids in their tank.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2223468&highlight=fast+growing

I think Kafuadfish also makes a great point that I'm hoping he'd expound upon regarding RNA relative to growth rate.

This thread is not about who is right or wrong, we will all believe what we wish and I think engaging the topic is all I was looking to do really. I really wish others would do that also. Tell us what you feel growth, growth rate and the variables you agree or disagree with that contribute to it or even the ones you feel are important or not. Or gives us your own spin on this topic which may be completely different than anything posted thus far. :thumbsup:


Thanks again everyone.


MUCHO REEF
TOTM - August 2003

[A. Grandis]

Great!
:thumbsup:
Let's wait for more to join the thread...

Grandis.

[KafudaFish]

Man no one told me there was going to be homework.

I will have to find the article again so it may be a few.

[MUCHO REEF]

Man no one told me there was going to be homework.

I will have to find the article again so it may be a few.





LOL, that's because you dah man. We can all learn from your experiences. Take it as another feather in your cap my friend. Now go ahead and drop that knowledge on us will yah.:wavehand:

I have some info on it but didn't want to steal your limelight so I will sit on it. Take your time, start a new thread so everyone can see it since no one is responding to this thread :confused:


By the way, here's another great thread for everyone to read from Reef Bass who hits the nail square on the head. Check it out everyone.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1975481&highlight=what+factors+impact


MUCHO REEF
TOTM - August 2003

[MUCHO REEF]

Jarred, I hear you. But if that is the true reason, I would simply think that is amazing, wow.


MUCHO REEF

[MUCHO REEF]

Man no one told me there was going to be homework.

I will have to find the article again so it may be a few.


Still looking forward to reading that article. Sounds interesting for sure.


Mucho

[KafudaFish]

My dog at my homework!

I looked for it the other day at work and was unable to find it but I will look again next week when there is nothing to do.

[kichimark]

My dog at my homework!

I looked for it the other day at work and was unable to find it but I will look again next week when there is nothing to do.

HA...just reminded me of one of my students. :spin2:

[Chriskid]

it seems to be hard to respond by, the brown one, or the melting orange ones, or the one that is blue(only for me). with all the name criticism , i find it hard to comment. yes the brown ones grow fast for everyone...lol:)

however, i do believe temp change is a bigger factor then most think. zoas in my experience do not take kindly to fluctuation in temp.

A. Grandis, very jealous of your ability to go outside and pick your own zoas:)