Solenoids for Auto Top Off

[Green Chromis]

Where can I puchase 2 solenoids to use with the Profilux Opti Sensor for ATO in my sump?

[insomniac2k2]

If you dont need anything specific, I use the $25 NC solenoids. They work great!

http://autotopoff.com/Solenoids/

[Green Chromis]

Thanks.

[bennr]

I bought two solenoids from autotopoff.com and used one of them for ato with my p3 and optical sensor......the solenoid failed open after one week of use and flooded my reef tank with rodi water.....system almost crashed if I did not catch it about six hours later.....I would never suggest anyone hook these solenoids up directly to your rodi system.....at least use a bucket of rodi water instead so only so much rodi water could enter your system if the solenoid failed....
I am still using the tunze osmo and am awaiting fixes from ghl in order to operate my ato....


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[Hydrologist]

If a solenoid fails open I am not sure any controller can fix that problem. I have had solenoids fail, but they fail to open up not close.

I am not even sure that it is possible for any controller to fix a solenoid that has failed in the open position. As Bennr stated its best to have your top off coming from a water barrel vs. your RO/DI unit. IMO, this is just asking for a disaster.

Maybe its a good idea to run 2 solenoids on the same line? I think it would be extremely rare for two of them two fail open at the same time (could, happen but not very likely)

Any other suggestions?

[bennr]

If a solenoid fails open I am not sure any controller can fix that problem. I have had solenoids fail, but they fail to open up not close.

I am not even sure that it is possible for any controller to fix a solenoid that has failed in the open position. As Bennr stated its best to have your top off coming from a water barrel vs. your RO/DI unit. IMO, this is just asking for a disaster.

Maybe its a good idea to run 2 solenoids on the same line? I think it would be extremely rare for two of them two fail open at the same time (could, happen but not very likely)

Any other suggestions?

I thought about the two solenoid idea but how do you know when one is failing in time to replace it before both go......
Yes, it is impossible to stop the water from flowing thru a solenoid that has failed open......no alarm or backup can stop this unless maybe you used a NO solenoid and made it close when alarmed but still how secure is this!?! I will not rely on these cheap Chinese solenoids ever again!
I was disappointed when this happened especially since it is used by GHL as the method shown in their how to videos.....aqua digital claims that my solenoid is much different than theirs but yet we both bought from the same autotopoff.com and only I have sent the pic of mine to them.....I never got a pic of theirs!

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[Hydrologist]

You will never know both are failing unless you test them out. The odds of two of them failing at the same time are slim to none. You can simply test the solenoids out when you do your regular water changes. (this is when I test mine out)

You could also use a float valve with the double solenoid and have triple redundancy.

[bennr]

You will never know both are failing unless you test them out. The odds of two of them failing at the same time are slim to none. You can simply test the solenoids out when you do your regular water changes. (this is when I test mine out)

You could also use a float valve with the double solenoid and have triple redundancy.

My solenoid failed after one week of use.......so testing would have to be very often for my peace of mind.....


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[luisagos]

I have been using this solenoid for over 1 year for my ATO, never failed so far.

See post 12 on my build thread. (http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2039381)

I also made back up float to limit a solenoid failure to 100% proof.

I made this, and its connected on the output of the ATO solenoid.
You can adjust the float to max level of your sump (plus 1/2 inch) that stays normal.

With the GHL optical sensor, this is 100% proof, this setup will never failed with topping to much ATO.

GHL controlling my ATO is amazing, never had a failure.
Its so sensitive, i know when a snail is walking across my overflows.

These solenoid will fail with saltwater flowing through them, so dont use them for saltwater water lines.

http://i1015.photobucket.com/albums/af280/luisagos/20120602_200817.jpg

[AQD_ottawa]

This is great I will be implementing this on my new build, Thanks for the great info.

[Hydrologist]

Can you explain a little more on what you did there?

[AQD_ottawa]

Basically he put a float valve on the outlet to the sump of the RO so if the solenoid failed the manual float valve would cut off flow.

[luisagos]

1) I made 2 acrylic 90 deg brackets, using a heat gun to bend them and drilled some holes.
2) Used a nylon threaded rod, and nuts to be able adjust the level of the float valve.
3) Two fishy veggie clip, mounts the Assembly to the sump very well.

[AQD_ottawa]

Why i never thought of this myself ! Brilliant :)

[Hydrologist]

Can you explain how this would be any different from using a solenoid with a float valve? I am lost here.

As of now the only difference I see is that your float valve is secured inside the sump via clips vs being installed the "normal" method i.e. drilling a whole in the sump at the required water level.

I know I am missing something, I just can't wrap my head around it.

[AQD_ottawa]

The way i see it and Luis will advise if I am off base -

The optical sensor provides pinpoint refill of the sump triggering the solenoid giving far greater tolerence than a float valve can. it also gives you greater control functionality for example delay start etc etc.

The float valve acts as a safety cut off should the solenoid fail.

[luisagos]

Profilux is able to control the solenoid with the optical probe level sensors.

GHL controller can control how much water goes into your sump, and how long it should take.
If you programmed the controller to have a delay off for 10 seconds.
When 10 seconds passes, it will turn off the solenoid and sound a alarm.

If the solenoid ever fails, my added valve will make sure you never go beyond the point where the valve float sits.

Just because the controller shuts power to the solenoid doesnt mean the solenoid is closed. This a extra valve that makes this 100% proof.

[luisagos]

The way i see it and Luis will advise if I am off base -

The optical sensor provides pinpoint refill of the sump triggering the solenoid giving far greater tolerence than a float valve can. it also gives you greater control functionality for example delay start etc etc.

The float valve acts as a safety cut off should the solenoid fail.



Your right on !

[Hydrologist]

OK, so you are basically just saying that you use a solenoid with a float valve for added security. I did say that above, so I thought there was something else going on here.

Anyways, it was nice to see your device for the float valve, I do like how you can adjust it, if necessary. I hate to drill a tank unless I absolutely have too.

Thanks for sharing.

[bennr]

Profilux is able to control the solenoid with the optical probe level sensors.

GHL controller can control how much water goes into your sump, and how long it should take.
If you programmed the controller to have a delay off for 10 seconds.
When 10 seconds passes, it will turn off the solenoid and sound a alarm.

If the solenoid ever fails, my added valve will make sure you never go beyond the point where the valve float sits.

Just because the controller shuts power to the solenoid doesnt mean the solenoid is closed. This a extra valve that makes this 100% proof.

To state that it is 100% fail proof is wrong.....it can still fail.....I think this point needs to be established because I have seen and been told things are 100% safe and they never are.....just saying.....IMO if you need multiple fail safes then really how safe is it? That would be like me putting two or three alarm systems on my house because the first one or two may fail.....in reality it is possible for all three to fail or it is possible for the culprit to penetrate all three.....in reefing there is no 100% fail safe.....I think this is a point that GHL, its associates, and customers need to realize. You can minimize risk but you cannot eliminate it.


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[bennr]

I do use a float valve for my ato reservoir and I can easily see how it can and would fail.....I am in the trade and do lots of construction.....I see things fail all the time......nothing is 100% safe.....this IMO is false advertising on the part of any company....it's not what the customer wants to hear but it is truth and fact.


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[luisagos]

I do use a float valve for my ato reservoir and I can easily see how it can and would fail.....I am in the trade and do lots of construction.....I see things fail all the time......nothing is 100% safe.....this IMO is false advertising on the part of any company....it's not what the customer wants to hear but it is truth and fact.


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Did you read anything on this thread?

[luisagos]

OK, so you are basically just saying that you use a solenoid with a float valve for added security. I did say that above, so I thought there was something else going on here.

Anyways, it was nice to see your device for the float valve, I do like how you can adjust it, if necessary. I hate to drill a tank unless I absolutely have too.

Thanks for sharing.



Anytime.

[Hydrologist]

I never thought any method was 100%, you should never assume this.

There is no ATO unit anywhere that is 100%, you MUST plan for mishaps and reduce the chance of this happening by following procedures (cleaning/testing) and extra equipment (additional solenoid and float valve).

As far as I am concerned 2 solenoids, plus the addition of the float sensor is pretty close to 100% and probably has a 98% success rate (with proper maintenance and testing).

[DgenR8]

I do use a float valve for my ato reservoir and I can easily see how it can and would fail.....I am in the trade and do lots of construction.....I see things fail all the time......nothing is 100% safe.....this IMO is false advertising on the part of any company....it's not what the customer wants to hear but it is truth and fact.


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You have made it quite obvious that you have an axe to grind. You've been permitted to make your point, and say your piece, but enough is enough. It's time to either let it go, or take it somewhere else. Future posts to further your personal vendetta will cost you the ability to post here all together.

[luisagos]

I have had my setup for over 1 year, I have yet to clean anything relating to the ATO.

Never cleaned the GHL optical sensor, the float or solenoid that I got.

When have those three plus GHL software, you will have a robust system.

[Hydrologist]

I do recommend you clean all pieces of equipment as this can be a preventative measure to possible failures. Salt creep gets everywhere and a mechanical device like a float valve can be severely affected.

I am not saying you never will have a problem, but a little maintenance CAN save you in the long run, IME.

Anyways...I don't want to get into a battle on maintenance of equipment that's for another thread :)

[Halfmoon61]

As someone looking to eventually do this and remove the top off tank I have in my stand I've been trying to wrap my head around this. I don't understand how the solenoid works and the float valve safety looks like it's not in the sump. I've got a lot of reading to do on this. Currently I have two Brute cans one for R/O and the other for mixing salt water. I don't want to eliminate this, as I like having the extra water on hand. I was thinking of a pump in the R/O container making it do double duty as a container and a top off tank.

[AQD_ottawa]

+1 ALL equipment no matter who makes it, how much it costs or its reputation requires maintenance, nobody can rightfully blame an equipment failure on the product if not maintained.

[DgenR8]

[chimp]
Some folks you just can't reach. :wavehand: