Angel acquisition opinions

[Rapide]

I'm considering to purchase one or two more large angels in to my 11' mixed reef, and I'd like some opinions from you guys.

My current list is Pomacanthus imperator and navarchus, Pygoplites diacanthus and Centropyge argi, acanthops, loricula and bisbinosus.
Also there are some surgeons: sohal, hepatus, 3 yellows, japonicus and lineatus. Some anthis, gobies, Marine betta, Kleins butterfly, wrasses...
I'm planning to give the Clown tang, japonicus and Kleini away.

So... There are 4 species of large angels in my list:
Pomacanthus annularis
Pomacanthus maculosus
Pomacanthus xanthometopon
Holacanthus ciliaris

Xanthometopon and ciliaris are quite same in colour, so it wouldn't be the two of them. Then again maculosus and ciliaris are quite the same in shape, but different in corour. Annularis isn't as striking, but pretty nevertheless.


What do you people think? Please help me dicide, thanks!

[CenterConsole]

If your picking 2 from the list, my vote would be xanthometopon and annularis. I've seen both of those in reefs many of times, with the most success. The ciliaris and maculosus get the biggest, even in an 11ft tank. Also between all 4 angels, those two would be the most aggressive and more likely to pick at corals from my experiences.

[Rapide]

I have never seen xanthometopon or annularis in flesh.
They are also the more rare of the 4, atleast here in Finland. Well, all large angels excluding imperator are rare here ;)
It's either the maculosus & ciliaris, or annularis & xanthometopon.

[Curious George]

11', Holy Smokes!!!

That's a lot of tank. Can you post any pics? I'd love to see that monster.

I would get a maculosus for sure. Gorgeous fish, especially one that has some size on it (7-10"). They have the most intricate "map" pattern on their tails.

As far as the other, I would get a French angel or King. I know you didn't mention them, but the Queen and Blue face can be REALLY nasty. Not that the others aren't, but the most agressive fish I have ever seen was a Queen and the Blue Face is a real bruiser too.

[Rapide]

Oh... I don't want a Gaza simulation in my tank! Te Blue face hasn't actually been on my
to-get-list, and I'v seen some Queens around, so...
The French angel doesn't quite do the trick for me, you know... And I've got a 12" Sohal that allready carries the gray colour. I'm kinda looking for something "new" and different.
King isn't suitable either, since I have a black backwall in my tank. I'd only see the white stripe! LOL!

There is something about the maculosus that I like. Maybe it's the light colouring... So maculosus is one, def!!
I've also had my eye on some Apolemichthys species, and Chaetodontoplus, but I'd have to lose some tangs or something before getting more large angels.
I just love them both, tangs and angels <3 Maybe the Hippo tang must go next...

[hkarmy25]

Next to the blueface, majestics are a close second (navarchus). Either that or the ann. would be it if i were you.

[Sleepingtiger]

instead of the maculosus, try the asfur. very similar in color, but the asfur is definitely more brilliant. the bluish face and body mixed in with the yellow bar is a winner. for the 2nd, maybe the false personifer. if money isn't a problem, get you the holy grail of all marine fish, the conspicuous.

[Rapide]

I already have a Majestic angel :rollface: He's about 5" now...

So I've kind of made my mind now! :beer:
It's going to be the Halfmoon angel and the French angel, maculosus and paru.

I'm still going to check the availability and initial cost for the two of them, and possibly place an order next month and the fishes should be here early next year! What a way to start a new year, eh?

But... Knowing me, I still might change my mind! LOL :hmm4:

[Rapide]

I actually prefer the maculosus over the asfur... And conspicillatus, I don't like it.
A lovely fish, but not my cup of tea... Neither do I like the personifers, false or real.

[Curious George]

YES!

I feel like I won something!!

I had an Asfur for 6 years and I wouldn't get another over the Maculosous. The Asfur stays dark, whereas the purple on the Mac has a glow to it. Man, I wish I had the space for a Maculosous. Love my Majestic though. Wonderful fish. Shy, but wonderful fish.

Clarions are beautiful as well and a color you don't have. Expensive and tricky to find though.

[CenterConsole]

King angels are extremely aggressive! Probably the most aggressive angel there is (holocanthus is the more aggressive genus). Also they are a beautiful bronze color with the white stripe and blue accents, they're gorgeous fish and would stand out against a black background.

[SDguy]

Ever considered a rock beauty or goldflake angel? I also think a group of pyramid butterflies would look great in a tank that size.

[Rapide]

Peter I have concidered them, but from what I know Rock beauty is really picky eater, right? At one time I was getting some Pyramid butterflies, but I never got them from my LFS.
Also, I have to be honest here... The colour of the fish is in a big role. I do like the Goldflake, but getting one here would be too expensive. I did have a little chat with my LFS owner, and even he didn't want to order one because of the risk that it would die in his tank... He always keeps the fishes for at least 2 weeks to make sure they eat and are OK. A 1000€ fish would be too big a risk. He did say, that I could get one straight from TMC, and just pick the fish from the airport. Then it would be much cheaper, like 600€, but that wouldn't work for me...
Marine fish are really expensive here! They have to be packed the right way, and we are far from everywhere! In Sweden and Estonia everything is much cheaper. Finland is actually one of the most expensive countries in the world, and the most expensive in the € region. Only Denmark and Sweden are more expensive in Europe, but they don't heve the € as their currency. It's not really about the money, but I just don't want to spend more than 400€ on a fish, you know... It might die in a week, or in a month.
I have heard a lot about this, how I think some fish are "too expensive for me". People find it funny that we have a 400K€ car next to my basement sump room, but I find a 150€ fish too pricy! LOL! And that's just one of them...
What car, you may ask. You can find the answer from my username ;)

Anyway... At the moment it seems like it's the maculosus for sure, and paru maybe...
I do want to make a good choise here, so I will keep an open mind...

[SDguy]

Wow, 1000€ for a goldflake is a lot. The reason for my various suggestions is that, and this is just my opinion, the french angel is not worth the social and biological space it will take up, considering it's colors.

PS - Beautiful car :)

[Rapide]

Thanks Peter :thumbsup:
Those are my two passion, fish and cars! We were actually going to build a new house that was going to combine these two hobbies. There was going to be a lounge area that was going to be separated from the "garage" with a glass wall. In the garage there was going to be a "showroom" where we would have had our more exclusive cars over the winter. In the lounge there was going to be a 1000 - 1500 gallon reef tank. Well... As you know, not everything in life goes as you plan... On august 2011 I started to have some health issues, and early this year I was diagnosed with an early stage of cancer. Not something you want to hear when you are just 29 years old :mad: So we had to plan everything again, and on march this year we bought a house and started to make it our own. We basically did the whole house again, and I'm really looking forward to next summer and painting the house :dance:We are turning this place into a "Hamptons house". I really like the Hamptons style... I was actually looking to build a bigger tank, but 11 feet was the max because we ran out of wall!!

In may we carried this new tank in, and since then everything has gone really great! Well... there was this little mantis incident where I lost fishes for at least worth 400€. I later got the mantis out the tank (not in one piece), and it was a MONSTER!!
Now I'll be adding the final fishes, and it'll be these two or one large angels. :fish1: I still have some "rescue fishes" that I'll have to relocate.

Haven't actually told about these things to my hobby friends in here, but I guess they will read it from here now :wildone: People have been really curious about my "plans", and why I have been so secretive, so there you go...

[Rapide]

And about the French angel, you might be right... I would love LOVE to get a Maculosus and Moorish idol, but I don't find myself skilled enough to keep the idol... From what I know it's a hit or miss with them. I can't bear it if I'd lose the fish.

[Rapide]

Here you can see a little something... It's dinner time in Disco Volante!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4b7uh8O_2s4&feature=plcp

[Bernie21]

I would say a Queen and the blue line angel. If I can add another it would be the Rock Beauty Angelfish one of my favs, they do require special care (several Caribbean sponges), but once they're good, you should have plenty to enjoy!

[orangegoby]

+1 on the Queen, not the "juv. Queen", but the fully grown QUEEN QUEEN:wavehand:

[Carch melanopte]

Holacanthus ciliaris imo. They are a very hardy fish if collected, transported and acclimated properly.

[Yurivd]

If you are going for color also look at chaetodontoplus duboulayi

[Rapide]

So finally today I placed an order for Asfur and Annularis.
A lot of water has flown in the Danube in this time, but now after some changes those were my final choices. I decided to go with the Asfur due to it's smaller adult size and because maculosus was not on the list! The annularis is my wild card...
The fishes are coming on wednesday, and I can pick them up in a few weeks. Can't wait...

[humaguy]

did you get a tank raised annularis? they are quite small, mostly still babies- no large ones..but very beautiful and almost bulletproof..guessing you went with a larger specimen...good luck...

[rssjsb]

I decided to go with the Asfur due to it's smaller adult size and because maculosus was not on the list!I think you may have dodged a bullet. Macs are mean, even as juveniles. Years ago, I put a 1" tank raised maculosus in a 90-gallon tank with a well-established 3+" adult majestic as a temporary measure. The mayhem was immediate and shocking in its intensity. The little fish kept attacking over and over even though it was getting the worst of it. I thought I was going to lose both fish, and, in fact, I did lose the little one even after catching it and trying to nurse it back to health in a separate QT.

[jjk_reef00]

Just a heads up, if it is a mixed reef your large angels will likely eat all of your soft coral.

[Rapide]

We don't have any tank raised angels here, the market is too small for them. I know that you have them in the US, and I'm so jealous...
They are size M, so that should mean that the Asfur is 3,5" and the Annularis is 4"

I already have some large and small angels, and so far the only corals that have been on the menu are Protopalythoa, Zoanthus and Parazoanthus. But I don't mind... ;)
I might even go for a FOWLR in the future...

[jjk_reef00]

Sounds like quite a tank, do you have any pics?

[Rapide]

I'm a bit low on pictures, but there are some videos on YouTube...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4b7uh8O_2s4

This is the right half of the tank.
Some chances has happened since that video, but you get the point... The Emperor has gained some weight, and I no longer have the Powder brown and Clown tangs. Emperor was a "rescue" fish, as were the two Tang I mentioned. Still wondering if I should let the Hippo tang go, and make some room for the new angels...

[Rapide]

LOL... I hate those iPhone typos!!! Should always wait until I get home before I post anything!

[Rapide]

So the Asfur came on friday. It was QT'd by my friend who ordered it for me.
It is about 4" and readily eats nori, NLS pellets, freshly freezed self caught Mysis and other frozen foods. Initially I was going to add also another fish at the same time to reduce possible aggression towards the fish, but the annularis that it came with died after 24h in QT. It was rather large, I'd say 8-8,5" and as we all know large angels do not trawel well :(

So after the annularis died we tried to order a new one, but the wholesaler didn't have any. Before we tried to get a M-size annularis, but they only had the XL.
We are still waiting for that fish...

So I decided to order an Harluquin tusk as the other fish to be added with the asfur.
The wholesaler had the Australian tusk on the list, so they shipped one and it arrived on time and acclimated nicely and ate soon and seemed healthy. I wanted to go and see the fish right after it arrived, but the friend of mine was really busy with the forthcoming opening of the new shop/showroom. I asked if he could send me a picture of the fish and he sent one where the fish is still acclimating in a bucket.
Now I don't mean to brag, but I do know a bit about this stuff, and even by that lousy dark cellphone pic I could almost 95% surely tell that it was an Indian ocean specimen! Fuu******! Ofcourse polite as I am, I didn't say out loud that it was a wrong fish until I would be a 100% sure and saw the Tusk in flesh.
So for many times I tried to go and see the fish, but it was always a bad time...

Finally on friday evening I went to pick up my two new fish before the opening of the new store on saturday morning. I don't like my animals to be shown around... Yeah I know, but get your onw fish if you want to look at them! Hahaha!!
Anyway... I was right, it was an Indian ocean Tusk that the wholesaler had sent as an Australian fish and the price was according to that. I would never pay the price of an Australian Harlequin tusk for an Indian ocean fish. Like ever... So the wrasse stayed at the fish store and I went home with the Asfur.
As you can imagine I'm a bit fustrated about this whole fiasco, and about that fact that I had to introduce a single small Asfur on to a tank that already has 6 other angels and other rather aggressive species! But the only one that did show any aggression towards the Asfur was my Niger trigger, and after it had chased the Asfur behind the rocks it was over.
Other angels haven't shown any interrest, and I can only hope that things will go the same way with the annularis when it arrives.

So initially I ordered 5 new fishes that were supposed to come in two groups but only got one fish! The other 4 are the Harlequin Tusk, Annularis angel, Quoyi Parrot and a Skeletor Moray eel. We'll see what happens... *sigh

[Rapide]

Great success with the Asfur!
Such a fine fish, thank you for talking me into that ;)

The Annularis is STILL on it's way. Must be a long route...
I was just on the phone with my supplier, and he said that the new stocklist is coming tomorrow, and IF he places an order it will be on monday.
Now the thing is, that his tanks are a bit full, and he really can't order any more live stock, so I just may have to wait a bit longer - again.

At the same time I'm ordering a Rock Beauty, Holacanthus tricolor.
I think my tank is mature enough to have one. I've let myself believe that they are tricky fishes to get to eat, but I'm willing to give it a try.
Today I'm scooping out 4 Yellow tangs and a Niger trigger, and so there will be only one tang left after that - the 1' Sohal.
Also, the Centropyge acanthops might get a mate :) Not really sure how to bond them, any suggestion? Should I just toss the new fella in and let them sort it out? Maybe an acrylic wall for a few days...

[jjk_reef00]

Congrats on the Asfur, they are one of my favorite angels.

[Rapide]

Thanks Ed! I like it more and more every day...
The bahaviour, the bodyshape, the striking yellow on the dark blue... I'm adding more light soon, so that fish is going to look even better in the future!

I'm also really happy that my Quoyi parrotfish and Catalufa Big eye started to eat flakes yesterday!