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View Full Version : Do I really need GFO?


MellowReefer
12/11/2012, 06:44 PM
I don't plan on keeping SPS anytime soon. I have mostly LPS with a few mushrooms, zoas, GSP. I don't have a phosphate meter so I don't know how much I have but I have a refugium with chaeto growing well and no noticable algae in my tank. Do I still need to use GFO for the health/growth of my coral?

Mike Ordner
12/11/2012, 07:35 PM
If you and your tank are happy then I say no. Why complicate something that is working fine. Plus it is expensive. If you experience unwanted algae growth in the future then think about adding GFO to your routine.

reeferlover
12/11/2012, 09:03 PM
those coral will appreciate a little "dirtyness" then others. so no with a good fuge and no algea in DT your fine. but still test why not

MellowReefer
12/11/2012, 10:58 PM
Okay, thanks. I will see how it goes without it. I was using chemi pure elite for the last 4-5 months but noticed that the corals I had the longest were shrinking so eventually I took it out and they've been getting better ever since. So I think either I had a bad batch of it or it stripped too many nutrients out of the water. I was even using 2/3 of the recommended amount for my tank. I was thinking of trying Phosban or something else but I think I'll see what happens without anything.

reeferlover
12/11/2012, 11:37 PM
that being said if you see and increase with phosphates i would start to use it. but only if your po4 get higher. or u see algea in you display. i use it because i have sps and i like to feed. i dont want to starve my coral but i dont want algea either.

jbardwel
12/11/2012, 11:54 PM
If it isn't broke don't fix it. I had a massive hair algae issue but solved it more using big water changes and cutting way back on feeding the fish than the gfo which it took offline

bertoni
12/12/2012, 12:59 AM
I ran for years without GFO. :) I added some after a while, just as a sort of safety net.

reeferlover
12/12/2012, 02:37 AM
why do huge water changes and throw everything off and cut back on everythings food just use gfo its a great product and works

Ron Reefman
12/12/2012, 05:49 AM
why do huge water changes and throw everything off and cut back on everythings food just use gfo its a great product and works

I have a 350g system that is mostly sps and lps and I do a 35g water change maybe every 4-6 weeks. I feed my fish and corals well and use a huge variety types. And I don't run GFO or AC. I have a reactor plumbed into the sump and I have GFO and AC sitting on the shelf, but why use it and spend the money if you don't need to?

Johnathan says he runs GFO as sort of a saftey net. Having the reactor in place and GFO or AC on the shelf is a saftey net. If you are already using GFO and an algae problem develops, what do you use? You already have GFO in the system and you've already used your saftey net. I'm just sayin'

reeferlover
12/12/2012, 06:51 AM
wait so dont run gfo so when you get algae you can deal with it then. but if you are running gfo and you get algae theres nothing you can do?

i would prefer to prevent algae in the first place. dealing with it can be very stressful to you and the coral. its really personal preference i like a clean tank algae free if i develop algae while im running gfo and my phosphates are 0 then obviously its something else. WC time!!!

and a 35gal water change on a 350g system once a month is small, large water chages like i was concerned about are very disruptive ALK PH TEMP CAL everything can get thrown off

just sayin

darkiss
12/12/2012, 08:58 AM
I think to get rapid coral growth with zoa and sps you need to get your po4 to .03

Mine is currently .10 and I see sps,lps,zoa,gsp growth but I think it could be better. Also seen some alage on one of my rasta heads that took a week until a snail found it to clean it off.


If you run GFO will all your snail population die?

SteviesReef
12/12/2012, 10:33 AM
I have a mixed reef (SPS/LPS) that had a sargassum and algae issue. I started running GFO. That DESTROYED my algae and drastically reduced my sargassum. I have noticed an increase in SPS growth, but my LPS has suffered in terms of growth and how robust they appear.

MellowReefer
12/12/2012, 10:44 AM
Any advice on the best brand to get for putting in a media bag in a flow-through chamber in my sump? I don't want to get a reactor if I don't need to. This is just in case I need it if I do get algae. I have a bubble algae problem but I heard GFO doesn't really help that.

darkiss
12/12/2012, 10:47 AM
I have a mixed reef (SPS/LPS) that had a sargassum and algae issue. I started running GFO. That DESTROYED my algae and drastically reduced my sargassum. I have noticed an increase in SPS growth, but my LPS has suffered in terms of growth and how robust they appear.

Did you run your po4 to zero? or did you run it to 0.03

Look what the instructions on the po4 test say
http://www.marinedepot.com/test_kits_salifert_phosphate_information-ap.html

.03 is what you want, and my levels are at .10 now, so running gfo only till levels are at .03 then turning it off

tmz
12/12/2012, 10:48 AM
GFO removes inorganic phoshate, silicate and some metals ;it's fine product to use if your PO4 is high or tends to jump up . It won't do any of that from the shelf. Cost can be reduced by regenerating it. It is a fine product to use when PO4 leveles are high. The are many ways to run a reef tank.
Chemi pure elite contains gfo, gac and some di resin. The later is useless in a saltwater application. Some corals react negatively when PO4 levels are reduced too rapidly.

GAC in moderate use not on the shelf is a very good safety for helping to keep total organic carbon in control.

These are both very useful ,even though some have some level of success without them.
Gfo is a fine product to use if your PO4 is high .

darkiss
12/12/2012, 10:49 AM
Any advice on the best brand to get for putting in a media bag in a flow-through chamber in my sump? I don't want to get a reactor if I don't need to. This is just in case I need it if I do get algae. I have a bubble algae problem but I heard GFO doesn't really help that.

running mine in a phosban reactor from dr. fosters since it came with pump for like 50$

then got my gfo from brs for like 20$

rrasco
12/12/2012, 11:06 AM
I started running GFO a few months ago and severely ticked off my acans. They were thriving before that then refused to open for months. Threw up a frag tank on the cheap and they bounced right back. Same thing with my zoas.

I only used half or less of the recommended GFO. I switched to an ATS to handle N & P.

Ron Reefman
12/12/2012, 11:20 AM
wait so dont run gfo so when you get algae you can deal with it then. but if you are running gfo and you get algae theres nothing you can do?

i would prefer to prevent algae in the first place. dealing with it can be very stressful to you and the coral. its really personal preference i like a clean tank algae free if i develop algae while im running gfo and my phosphates are 0 then obviously its something else.

Well, then you already knew what you wanted to do, so why did you ask the question?

I pay attention to my tanks. The one time I saw some algae growth, it was in the sump, not in the tank. I ran GFO for a few weeks and the algae went away. If you let it go until it's out of control... yeah, then it's an issue for your coral. It's not a bad idea to have an algae eatting fish, like a yellow tang, in the tank as well. I haven't seen any algae in my DT in 3 years, in fact the algae in my refugium doesn't grow much at all. I have no nitrates or phosphates to speak of and therefore no algae issues.

bertoni
12/12/2012, 09:21 PM
There's usually no downside to running a bit of GFO as a safety net except cost. If you get algae anyway, clearly you need more GFO or another approach. On the other hand, if the nutrient levels already are very low, even a small amount of GFO might cause a bit of coral trouble, so I'd watch the animals, as always.

reeferlover
12/12/2012, 10:13 PM
agreed bertoni. i run about 2/3 the recommended amount. but i fee heavily and plan on adding more fish very soon.

MellowReefer
12/13/2012, 12:06 AM
Thanks for your input everyone. I'll just keep it on hand in case I get algae, but good to know that extremely low phosphate levels aren't necessary for long term health of corals (except SPS) and as long as my corals look happy I can go without it.

bertoni
12/13/2012, 12:37 AM
You're welcome! Good luck!

tmz
12/13/2012, 01:06 AM
Good luck. I'd keep an eye on PO4 levels from time to time to determine if you need to use gfo or another reducer. While nuisance algae and cyanobateria signal issues problems can occur from high PO4 without clear indicators. There are more things happening that we don't see or understand than what we do.

GPB
12/13/2012, 06:37 AM
I'll chime in as a warning about using GFO. My PO4 is, and has been zero, and I've always run some GFO . My corals look bleachy and I get very slow growth. I'm pulling it to see what happens.

rrasco
12/13/2012, 11:49 AM
I'll chime in as a warning about using GFO. My PO4 is, and has been zero, and I've always run some GFO . My corals look bleachy and I get very slow growth. I'm pulling it to see what happens.

I pulled mine about 2 months ago. Still had to move my acans, favia, and zoas to a frag tank. I can't ever tell what my po4 is because my hanna checker always shows 0, and always has. It's worth noting I didn't feed that much, just a pinch of flakes and a squirt of zooplex. I recently changed to Rod's Original and feeding more, so I might be getting some nutrient levels back up. I'm scared to move any of those corals back though.

MellowReefer
12/13/2012, 12:36 PM
It’s a balancing act - I guess the water is too clean for corals if you use GFO/GAC and have a light bioload for your size tank. Even though I only used 2/3 of the recommended amount of chemi pure elite, I only had 5 small fish in my 125 gal tank. Since I took it out I’ve added 2 more fish, and last night finally noticed some algae starting to grow again. But the corals are continuing to improve so I’m afraid to use it again. I have a foxface in QT right now and I will get more snails so I’m hoping that will help with the algae.

tmz
12/13/2012, 02:31 PM
Fyi plain ganulated activated carbon may be useful. If you likethe convenience of the chemi pure bag, the chemi pure;not the elite,as just carbon and the di resin;no gfo.

MrClam
12/13/2012, 02:57 PM
Related question from a noob here. Reading through people seem to agree that SPS need very low Phosphate <.03 while LPS and others need higher levels to thrive.

If both of these corals live in the ocean, how can they both survive? As im assuming NSW has stable phosphate levels.

jerpa
12/13/2012, 03:47 PM
We tend to use phosphates as an indicator of how much food is entering the system. While phosphate levels are low on the reefs there are huge amounts of food for LPS to live on. If you feed a lot and maintain low phosphate levels you can keep them both. It may require a bit more work though.

dirtyBit
12/13/2012, 05:56 PM
Just remember that PO4 can bind to rocks/sand and will leach out when the PO4 level drops in the water column. If you let it accumulate over time and then decide you want to keep SPS, you may be frustrated for a while until you exhaust what was bound to your rocks.

Arc Drafter
12/13/2012, 06:10 PM
Not trying to start a fight here, but I have a problem with people saying LPS like a lot of Phosphates in the water. That is like saying if you want to grow mushrooms you need dirty water. That just isn't right. Those types of livestock may be able to tolerate higher levels but as far as preferring bad water chemistry to good; I think is misleading to some of the new people here. If you have low phosphates then your gfo will last longer. I run GFO and have a basketball size ball of Chaeto and I am seeing excellent growth in all of my corals Mushrooms, LPS, and SPS. I don't think your water could be too clean for corals to grow. Just my opinion.

And o by the way I only mag my glass like 2x a month bc of the good water. My snails and other inverts are happy as well.

MellowReefer
12/13/2012, 06:40 PM
I can't say for a fact that my water was too clean to make my frogspawn change from what it looked like in the first picture to the second picture. (and a few other corals too) Maybe it's something else that I'm not aware of (bad batch of Reef Crystals?) But now that I removed the chemi pure elite it is finally starting to come back. Nothing else has changed.
http://i1132.photobucket.com/albums/m563/lisarichter8/1265-Copy.jpg
http://i1132.photobucket.com/albums/m563/lisarichter8/003.jpg

bertoni
12/13/2012, 08:39 PM
Well, "dirty water" might have different meanings to different people. I suspect that any phosphate level below 0.03 ppm likely is fine for animal health, but 1) our test equipment is fairly iffy at that level, and 2) coral coloration is different from coral health. In practice, GFO does seem to be able to lower the phosphorus content of the water enough to cause coral problems.

tmz
12/13/2012, 09:45 PM
I think euphylia,cataphylia, nemenzophylia and other corals particularly xenia ,for example, need more of the right flavor of organics(bioavailabe vs refractory) than more highly autotrophic species like acropora;not necessarily more PO4 or NO3.
Some species rely on absorbing organics from the water to a grater extent than others to meet their heterotrophic needs;maybe they also absorb PO4 and NO3.
Feeding well to keep the fresh organics and plankton flowing while exporting well to keep the nitrates and PO4,and overall TOC reasonably low is my goal.
Refugia of various types and plenty of surface area for micro and macro fuana helps too as does using organic carbon and running granulated activated carbon and aggressive skimming. I think ,it's not so much about exporting everything to get to nutrient zeros as it is finding the right tpeand level of additions and a way to export the right amount of the leftovers and degraded material,timely.
Organic carbon dosing seems to help both dynamics by supporting more bacteria and their by products to contribute the food chain while also providing bacteria bound phosphorous and nitrogen exportable via skimming .

It's also important to try to figure the natural conditions for the specific species of coral when considering optimal or at least tolerable nutrient levels . If it comes from turbid water or deeper water than the upper reef it's likely used to higher nutrient levels ,some report as much as 5x higher at depths of 10 meters,IIRC; but,that's still not" dirty" as I take that to mean ; more in the .02 to .05ppm PO4 level with nitrates in the 5ppm+ppm range . If it has been living in a high nutrient tank for a long time dumping it into a low nuteint tank may stess it.
Upper reeef waters can have PO4 as low as.005ppm with nitrate around 0.2pmm. Reefs ,however, have a continuous supply of plankton(bacteria, microfauna of various types, larvae,mini crustceans, phytoplanton, etc.) which is a continuous source for organic carbon, nitrogen and phosphorous. Replicating that condition with food in the water while limiting algae and coral browning or stress via low PO4 and NO3 isn't easily done in a closed tiny sytem like an aquarium but I believe it can be with the right combination of methods.
Sometimes PO4 is dropped rapidly which seems to stress corals that are used to higher levels,ime.So, deliberate small changes with patience and persistence are important when reducing nutients unless they are very high as well as when altering the organics in the aquarium.

MellowReefer
12/14/2012, 10:34 AM
That makes sense, thank you. My corals had grown used to a more nutrient rich environment and I stressed them by stripping it of those nutrients too rapidly. Maybe if I would have started with just one bag of CPE and a month later added another they would have adapted.

Arc Drafter
12/14/2012, 03:54 PM
@TMZ -- Good points. I suppose when I think of PO4 I was rule them out as nutrients for certain filter feeders and equivocating them to the nasty algae that grows on my glass. I do know that my corals seem to have nice color and growing a lot faster. I have been very diligent about spot feeding my hammers, torches, and frogspawn.


@ mellowreefer, I am not for sure either. It seems like an obvious correlation between the chemi pure elite. and the frog spawn. I am not familiar with that product, and I cannot speak for it. Further, not knowing anything about your system I hesitate to reply with any reasonable degree of accuracy. Although, the picture seems to be either a different angle or a new placement if it is the latter maybe the coral doesn't like the new placement. If it is a different angle then my response at the outset stands.