Cycle done, nitrates blown off the charts, big WC in order?

[voidg]

Hey all,

I've been fishless cycling, adding about 2ppm of ammonia a day to my tank. The last few nights both the ammonia and nitrite have dropped to 0ppm. Thus, I have concluded my cycle has complete. I'd like to keep dosing with the ammonia until I have fish as I want to keep the bacterial colony strong and don't really want a nitrate spike when I add my first fish. That said, my darn ammonia is OFF THE CHARTS! Last night it read 180ppm!!! The nitrates must go!

I have enough salt and big enough mixing containers to do this in one foul swoop. Theoretically I could muster a full change, though that sounds risky to my noob ears. I also have a couple mushroom coral that HH'd on my LR in addition to some snails and worms that also came in on the LR. I'd like to keep all of the above alive during this WC. My question to you is, how big of a water change can I get away with at this point while still keeping these critters alive?

[voidg]

that said, my darn ammonia is OFF THE CHARTS!

I mean NITRATES not ammonia :)

[MHG]

how many days and tell us more about your tank (size, amount of rock, cheato, DSB etc...) If you were adding at a rate faster than the builogical growth can take place I would expect this... In that case I would do a water change but you still need to wait for the denitrifying bacteria to develope before you will see any real difference...

[gbru316]

break up a 100% change into several smaller volume changes, performed on consecutive days.

I reduced my no3 from about 80 ppm to about 15 ppm by doing 2 40% changes.

[voidg]

thanks! It's a fifty four gallon, with 2 inches of argonite, no skimmer or sump yet. Running a rena xp3 until I get basement sump/fuge setup next year. Fifteen lbs of LR from a friend/lfs and forty lbs dry/base rock. Setup for eight weeks, after seven weeks I concluded it wouldn't cycle on its own as the LR had no die off, thus i started dosing w/ammonia to bolster what BB was left on LR. I have no chaeto or other macro algae in the tank yet.

Once I started dosing with ammonia, I had the typical ammonia spike 3ppm, followed by a nitrite spike apprx 2ppm, with nitrates climbing from 10ppm from tap water to the 180ppm mark where I am at now. Ph is 7.8, ammonia 0, nitrite 0, Nitrate 180ppm, 1.025 SG are my current numbers.

So I think my cycle has concluded, now I just need to get rid of nitrates right? I believe I have read they will not dissapear on their own in this new of a tank, so that's why I was looking at WC. Am I wrong in my thinking?

[gbru316]

You're not wrong, however, without regular maintenance (weekly removal and cleaning), that canister filter is just going to contribute to high nitrate.

You might want to think about finding a "clean" source of water before adding a sump/fuge. 10 ppm of no3 is enough to cause algae issues, and using that water for water changes will make it tough to keep no3 low.

[voidg]

Agreed on all fronts. I've switched to Rodi for top ups and this upcoming water change. I'm planning a large in basement sump and fuge in the new year so I can get rid of the rena. Until then I'll be cleaning the filter regularly. I'm also planning on keeping a couple chaeto balls behind my rockwork to help keep my tank stable until my sump is complete.

[Fizz71]

I personally wouldn't break the 50% WC mark in 24 hours (baring a major catastrophe). Just be certain you're dealing with the same temperature and pH when you change. You can get that nitrate down in no time.

I also don't recommend putting macro in your main tank...chaeto or otherwise. If you don't have a sump to hold it and light it yet you can get a HOT fuge or a large HOT filter modified to hold macro. Macro in the DT can have long term consequences.

If you plan on keeping the canister you really need to keep up on cleaning...as stuff gets trapped in your canister the live rock won't be able to do its work as well. Most people that use canisters just use them for volume/water movement or a place to run carbon or some other media, but not as a mechanical filter.

It sounds to me that your pushing your tank forward faster than your equipment is ready. No sump, no skimmer, IMO you're not ready but I understand the itch. Just be prepared for more than average water changes.

[voidg]

Thanks for the input. Given an endless supply of money I'd have everything up and running already (skimmer sump etc). The reality is that we got a good deal on a used tank + stand + T5HO fixture + 2 koralias.

I was thinking about an hob skimmer but I can't justify that when I plan to have a sump and fuge in less than 6 months in which to place a better skimmer.

In regards to macro in the DT what are the long term consequences? As I understand it chaeto isn't likely to root, and it should only improve water quality no?

[Fizz71]

Chaeto likes light and does best when tumbled, cramming it behind your rocks it will not likely do well. So you'll have to put in someplace where it could wind up getting blown around and moved. Even though it won't root in your rock like caulerpa, it can still break up and float around or get trapped around a coral or in your koralias.

As for improving water quality...sure...it can be good for pulling down nitrates, but it's best kept in a separate chamber of a sump or fuge. I'm just one person so all advice is "IMO" on here so we'll see if somebody else chimes in, but personally I keep macro out of the DT.

And like I said...I understand the itch and I know money can be tight, but I had a 240g acrylic tank, stand, sump (bought used) and enough lighting, heating and pumps from previous systems to get a tank up and running but not really running well. I even had a tub of live rock...and it all sat for over a year before I had the enough of the right equipment to move forward and had my plumbing and layout set.

I'm still upgrading, but I forced myself to wait for the sake of my sanity and the livestock's health....Massive water changes in a 300g system is quite costly. :)

You took the jump now so it's irrelevant, just use WCs to keep the nitrates down. If you don't have a whole lot of livestock it won't climb that fast.

[ReefKeeper64]

How many gallons is your entire system? If it's a small setup under 50 gallons then water changes are a quick easy fix. If much larger, I find such large water changes to be time consuming and extremely expensive. Not to mention how much waste water you have to expend in order to create your purified RODI water.

An easier option would be to just add bio-pellets and a reactor set the wide open position. BPs will bring down your nitrates to zero quickly (a week or two if you use the right amount). Then you can dial back your reactor and remove some of the pellets to find the level of nitrate removal that works for you in the long run.

You don't have any coral in your tank so you don't have to worry about over cleaning your water and that makes bio-pellets a good option for you to consider. Good luck getting it going!

[voidg]

It's a 54G corner tank and I do actually have two mushroom coral in my tank that came in on my live rock.

Also because of the tank shape, the LR forms a cavernous pile (think ampetheatre setup) in the back middle of the tank and I have left 1 to 2 inches on each side and roughly 6 inches or a little more between the back corner and the back of the rock wall. This where I was planning on sticking the chaeto (in the large empty spot behind the rock wall) as it would get light, good flow and it may even tumble a little depending on size and power head placement. In fact I was going to stick my third, less powerful, koralia behind the wall anyway to blow detrius and junk out of the structure.

[MHG]

Sounds like you may have gone a bit heavy with the ammo.... I would do a couple of big water changes and stop the ammo dosing.... Be patient. But you need to develope some denitrifying bacteria and get a sump online with some cheato (skimmer as well).. Patients. You went too fast and the only way out is patients or throw money at it.... Just get it down a bit and wait it out till you can finish your build...

Although for a few bucks you can get some prodibio Biodigest ... That will speed it up.... But I would wait for a skimmer If dosing bacteria or carbon.

[ReefKeeper64]

If you don't have a skimmer then bio-pellets or any other form of carbon dosing aren't in the cards yet. Perhaps that will be a good option of you down the road.

[voidg]

Thanks for all the input! I'm really that bad off without the sump/skimmer? From reading lots of articles and forum post, what I took away was that a sump and skimmer are ideal, but not 100% necessary. Yes, skimmer is the best tool we have for completely removing junk from the water column and a canister will let things rot if not cleaned. I get why these things are heavily recommend, but is it impossible to achieve success, especially in the short term going a different path?

Maybe it was a bad idea but my plan has always been to get the tank established, cycled and run the Rena for a few months with minimal stocking post cycle , then move on to either an hob skimmer or sump W/ skimmer. Just recently I decided that the effort of installing a basement sump system was worth it as my stand really has no space for a sump. Figured I could bypass the hob skimmer option and invest that money into the full sump setup. Which brings me to right now.

Feeling kind of lost. Most of you have been in the hobby for much longer than myself, but I personally cannot see a point in keeping a tank going for months on end with no fish. My impression was that the tank was maturing nicely, went through a diatom bloom in weeks 3-6 and jus recently proved that we have enough BB to convert ammonia to nitrite and nitrite to nitrate. I guess my question is, if I'm just waiting from now to the spring without livestock for the sake a of a sump W/ skimmer what is that going to do for my tank or what else am I missing?

Maybe I should locate a used hob skimmer in the meantime.

[gbru316]

but is it impossible to achieve success, especially in the short term


Nope. You're doing fine, just get that no3 under control, stock lightly, and keep up with maintenance.

It's not even remotely impossible to run a successful tank without a sump or skimmer, for years on end. It just requires a bit more work.

[Fizz71]

Nope. You're doing fine, just get that no3 under control, stock lightly, and keep up with maintenance.

It's not even remotely impossible to run a successful tank without a sump or skimmer, for years on end. It just requires a bit more work.

+1

You can live without a sump..It's main goal is to provide more water volume, hide your crap and keep the DT water level constant (evaporation is seen in the sump). Also great for growing macro and frags if you light it enough, and hide a DSB (called an RDSB).

You can live without a skimmer too...It's main goal, to quote Wikipedia is "to remove organic compounds from the water before they break down into nitrogenous waste". Translation, slower build up of nitrates (the end result of the waste remaining in your tank when you don't have a skimmer).

I ran sumpless for several years, I had a special HOB filter with a floss I changed weekly along with some sponges and other filters that absorbed nitrates and such. Your options running sumpless/skimmerless is to run chemically like I did (and still had nitrates), or do water changes more often. Chemically was too costly (materials) and water changes are a pain (especially without a sump) so I eventually added a sump....this was back on my 75g BTW...I've always had a sump on the 240g....and an RDSB....and 0 nitrates with about a dozen fish (2 tangs).

So you can do it...you'll be fine...it just means once those nitrates are down you'll need to test weekly and do water changes to keep them down. And if your bio-load is low and you feed light, it won't be a big deal.

[voidg]

Thanks. Confidence restored! :)

[Fizz71]

BTW...I had used vodka dosing to get the nitrates down on my 240g when I first got it up. I don't need it anymore, but it might be something you want to read up on. It felt odd giving my tank vodka (my wife and friends thought I was nuts) but it has its merits.

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2008-08/nftt/index.php

EDIT..Actually I just forgot that vodka dosing requires a skimmer...so nevermind.

[i Tuna]

Hey all,

I've been fishless cycling, adding about 2ppm of ammonia a day to my tank. The last few nights both the ammonia and nitrite have dropped to 0ppm. Thus, I have concluded my cycle has complete. I'd like to keep dosing with the ammonia until I have fish as I want to keep the bacterial colony strong and don't really want a nitrate spike when I add my first fish. That said, my darn ammonia is OFF THE CHARTS! Last night it read 180ppm!!! The nitrates must go!

I have enough salt and big enough mixing containers to do this in one foul swoop. Theoretically I could muster a full change, though that sounds risky to my noob ears. I also have a couple mushroom coral that HH'd on my LR in addition to some snails and worms that also came in on the LR. I'd like to keep all of the above alive during this WC. My question to you is, how big of a water change can I get away with at this point while still keeping these critters alive?

IME, you can do a 50% water change safely on a tank that size. Just make sure to have the new water at the same parameters (alk,magnesium,calcium) and same temperature + salinity as the existing water. The will be a little initial shock, but that subsides rather quickly within an hour or two.

* Also, if you want to run skimmerless, check out the ATS (Algae Turf Scrubber) thread, and soak up as much info as you can. From what I've read about other people's experiences, some individuals run skimmerless using an ATS which is harvested weekly.

[wooden_reefer]

Hey all,

I've been fishless cycling, adding about 2ppm of ammonia a day to my tank. The last few nights both the ammonia and nitrite have dropped to 0ppm. Thus, I have concluded my cycle has complete. I'd like to keep dosing with the ammonia until I have fish as I want to keep the bacterial colony strong and don't really want a nitrate spike when I add my first fish. That said, my darn ammonia is OFF THE CHARTS! Last night it read 180ppm!!! The nitrates must go!

I have enough salt and big enough mixing containers to do this in one foul swoop. Theoretically I could muster a full change, though that sounds risky to my noob ears. I also have a couple mushroom coral that HH'd on my LR in addition to some snails and worms that also came in on the LR. I'd like to keep all of the above alive during this WC. My question to you is, how big of a water change can I get away with at this point while still keeping these critters alive?

Two ppm NH3 each day is far too much if you cycle with the intention of retaining the water, or "cycling a tank".

There are two basic perspectives to cycling, one is environmental/ecological; the other is just nitrification and not entire nitrogen cycle.

For the former, I really "cycle a tank". I use just the right amount of NH3 (source); for the latter, I use a lot of ammonia and plan on the get-go to do a 100% WC after the cycle. For the latter, I do not cycle a tank, I cycle the medium intended for a tank. For the latter, I tend to use my urine if possible and use a small container and just a few gals of water.

[wooden_reefer]

If the nitrate is really extremely high, you should bite the bullet and change nearly all of the water.

50% of extremely high is still very high.

[wooden_reefer]

To cycle a tank for reef, source for 1 ppm NH3 on day 1 and 2 ppm on day 10 will be all that is needed.

[dankreef]

You guys are crazy. Its bran new tank and nothing in it and its only a 55? Drain that thing, refill it with new water, dump a bag of live sand in the bags into your tank call it a day. All the dosing for bacteria and then over doing it is bad news. Drain water,add bag of live sand, refill, wait a hour test, add fish.

[voidg]

Don't tempt me into changing all the water... I would be close to considering it! The tap water I used to fill turned out to be much higher in TDS (350ppm) than I was told by local water provider (city). One foul swoop would destroy my nitrate problem and any other crud that came in the tap water (phosphates etc). There is a cyano problem I am battling so cleaning the water that much would help tremendously. I have a tub of 45G+ of saltwater mixing right now. I suspect that would pretty darn close to the actual water volume in the tank.


What is everyone else's opinion, would a near 100% change... hurt or help in the long run? Does sounds like playing with fire, but hey what do I know...I am a n00b! :)

[Fizz71]

A near 100% water change would be just fine for everybody but the crabs and maybe the shrooms which you mentioned in the beginning which is why I said 50% max. As far as cycling is concerned you'll take only a small hit (if any) with a 100% water change. The only spike you'd get is if something died from the water change like a sponge, crab, etc...in terms of nitrifying bacteria you'd be fine.

If you can get the hitchhikers you want to keep out you can go 100%. Otherwise you may lose some.

[CRJ]

If your planning on adding a sump in the next month with a skimmer and such, drain your tank and do it right the first time. Your already off to a bad start, the tank will battle you the entire time you own it, you'll get frustrated, tired of the constant upkeep and you'll have it crash or die off.

if its worth doing, its worth doing right the first time.

[voidg]

if its worth doing, its worth doing right the first time.

This is my current train of thought.

A near 100% water change would be just fine for everybody but the crabs and maybe the shrooms

Don't have any crabs in the tank AFAIK...unless they are hiding in some of the LR. I do have a few Stomatella snails and pink/purple Birstle worms. I assume the worms and snails will live through it? The shrooms survived the trip home for the LFS (20 minutes away) and were thrown into a new tank with conditioned tap water, so I assume the shock of a 100% change can't be any worse!

[wooden_reefer]

Don't tempt me into changing all the water... I would be close to considering it! The tap water I used to fill turned out to be much higher in TDS (350ppm) than I was told by local water provider (city). One foul swoop would destroy my nitrate problem and any other crud that came in the tap water (phosphates etc). There is a cyano problem I am battling so cleaning the water that much would help tremendously. I have a tub of 45G+ of saltwater mixing right now. I suspect that would pretty darn close to the actual water volume in the tank.


What is everyone else's opinion, would a near 100% change... hurt or help in the long run? Does sounds like playing with fire, but hey what do I know...I am a n00b! :)

Don't you have a RO unit for aquarium or for yourself as well?

[voidg]

SpectraPure RODI unit @ 90 GPD, just filtered a little over 45G of water (0ppm TDS), then start a salt mix and water heat cycle last night. Was planning to change it out tonight.

[Fizz71]

Sorry...you said SNAILS in your first post. If we're talking all hitchhikers type snails, then go for it. Some may die and give you a quick cycle, just don't be upset if something doesn't make it. :)

[voidg]

The majority of the life in my tank, including the shrooms, are still housed in the old coraline encrusted LR I got from the LFS/friend. Perhaps I will remove this LR as it's mostly on the top of my pile and place it in a bucket for drip-style acclimatization to the new tank params. Just maybe that will stem any die off...

[voidg]

Thanks for all input everyone. Completed my large water change last night, which I am guessing was around 95%. Nitrate dropped from 160 to 10 ppm. Still not perfect but at least manageable at this point. Most of the tank (hitchhiker) life survived; mushroom corals opened up all day and I've even some bristle worms and stomatella out on the LR. Can't see any pods partying it up in a little hair algae on the LR where they used to be, so maybe my pod population fell victim.

If some life has died, how long would it take the ammonia to register with my test kit?