sudden loss of appetite/sick?

[parrotchute]

So, I got a copperband from the LFS the other day, where he had been QT'd for 2 weeks. After acclimating him to my tank (alas, I have no QT set up), he dropped dead within 24 hours.

Now, 3 days later, 2 of my 3 tangs (Purple and Convict) are acting weird. They are a little listless, not showing an appetite (for algae or frozen, which they usually go nuts for) and one seems to be breathing a little heavy. I'm very worried right now.

Any ideas? Parasite? Would a disease or parasite be able to spread and affect them so fast?

I have a 150 gallon long, well established, 1.024sg, 0/0/0 am/ni/na. Temp is 78. Not sure what to do...

Thanks!

[MrTuskfish]

Sure, who knows what the CBB brought in with him? Breathing heavily is a common sign of a few parasites. Any visible symptoms, spots, peeling skin, etc? I'd do large WCs and see if that helps. I have a feeling you're going to need A HT/QT soon. I would the ich and parasite stickies above.

CBBs , from Indonesia especially, can die very quickly. I wouldn't get another CBB for your tank; they don't do well with aggression or even a very "busy" tank. Tangs generally don't like newcomers, and CBBs are high on their list.

I sure wouldn't attempt any new fish without a QT. The 2 weeks at the lfs doesn't follow a decent QT regimen; they usually just keep them alive and fed for two weeks. New fish should always be quarantined, by the owner, for 6 weeks or so. I think not using a QT is the most common factor in the extremely high turnover in our hobby.

[parrotchute]

Thanks fr the help! Do you think fish have much of a fighting chance on their own? I always feel like once a fish is in distress, it's a downward spiral.

No visible symptoms, I'll def do some WC's. I was worried about the copperband, but was sick of some of the aiptasia that has been lingering and went for one that was looking pretty healthy in the store.

Yeah, I am guilty about the QT. For me, it does seem like a major hassle to set up another complete tank. (obviously not as much hassle as losing my beloved fish) I've been very lucky for years not having any diseases or problems with the tank, so I guess I'm a little complacent.

[snorvich]

Just for your information:

1. Quarantine at a LFS is counterproductive since fish systems share water and they are constantly receiving new shipments; as a consequence the longer a fish is at an LFS, the higher the chance of them contracting a parasite

2. Copperbanded butterfly fish do not necessarily eat aiptasia.

3. Read my signature line about quarantine.

[snorvich]

Double post

[MrTuskfish]

Thanks fr the help! Do you think fish have much of a fighting chance on their own? I always feel like once a fish is in distress, it's a downward spiral.

No visible symptoms, I'll def do some WC's. I was worried about the copperband, but was sick of some of the aiptasia that has been lingering and went for one that was looking pretty healthy in the store.

Yeah, I am guilty about the QT. For me, it does seem like a major hassle to set up another complete tank. (obviously not as much hassle as losing my beloved fish) I've been very lucky for years not having any diseases or problems with the tank, so I guess I'm a little complacent.

Sure, fish have a better fighting chance on their own. This CBB sure did/does. Are you referring to just this fish, or new fish in general? A long-used classic excuse to avoid a QT is "but I think the little fishie needs company to be happy". Nonsense. Fish "care" about eating, mating, and not being eaten.

WCs won't hurt anything; but they aren't going to change much, either. A HT/QT may save your fish, staying where he is is very questionable. I can't over-emphasize how much CBBs need quiet surroundings to acclimate. New CBBs are real wusses and frighten at any movement for a while.

[wooden_reefer]

So, I got a copperband from the LFS the other day, where he had been QT'd for 2 weeks. After acclimating him to my tank (alas, I have no QT set up), he dropped dead within 24 hours.

Now, 3 days later, 2 of my 3 tangs (Purple and Convict) are acting weird. They are a little listless, not showing an appetite (for algae or frozen, which they usually go nuts for) and one seems to be breathing a little heavy. I'm very worried right now.

Any ideas? Parasite? Would a disease or parasite be able to spread and affect them so fast?

I have a 150 gallon long, well established, 1.024sg, 0/0/0 am/ni/na. Temp is 78. Not sure what to do...

Thanks!

The idea is that your attitude toward this hobby will not lead to success.

A closed system is a breeding ground of pathogens, especially when fish from various parts of the world are collected. They carry a large array of pathogens which in a closed system will cause a lot of problems.

Disease control is therefore a large part of fish keeping.

No LFS can QT fish for you. They have rent to pay.

For example, the time it takes to eradicate ich is at least 8 weeks. This is not to say that this time the cause is ich.

Then there is bacterial infection. Without a device that vastly eliminates waterborne bacteria concentration, it can be very high.

A closed system lacks the dilution effect of the ocean; this affects both the chemical water quality and the pathogen concentration. An aquarist interested in fish has to deal with both.

[wooden_reefer]

The cbb is tricky. Was it feeding well while at the LFS?

If it is not even feeding well, then the two-week QT at the LFS is even more rubbish.

In general, the ccb should be accilmated first so that it feeds well, and then 8 weeks min to eradicate ich.

[parrotchute]

I understand not QTing isn't the best idea - I'm not trying to spurn good advice, I'm a fairly experienced, largely successful reefer and I hate seeing people with the attitude towards advice (like not using tap water, overstocking, etc) that they are just going to try things that fly in the face of what experienced aquarists recommend to them. But, I didn't hae a QT and I'm paying the price for that, unfortunately. I'll have to look at figuring out setting one up in the future --> ideas on how to do this on the relatively cheap would be great! I definitely don't not quarantine to keep the fish from being lonely! It's more that I don't have the resources/space to set one up. (and yes, I know this is arguable point, i.e., "if you have a tank, that's part of the requirement" etc)

I know CBs don't always eat Aiptasia, that's not the only reason I got him. My tank is pretty well established and I thought I could provide a stable enough environment to give him a chance.

Right now I'm concerned about the two tangs that are acting weird since the CBB died. They are staying low in the tank and look a little listless. No big appetite. The CBB was feeding frozen food at the LFS (I asked for them to feed it to observe).

Hope I don't sound like I'm being arrogant about the QT - I know I should, and the proof is in the pudding. But I'm focused on if there's much I can do with the two tangs right now...

I did turn down the flow on my VT's a bit so they wouldn't have to swim so much in the current (since they appear to be taking shelter from it by the rocks) to potentially let them conserve some energy. Still have plenty of o2 from my skimmer being introduced with the reduced flow.

Thanks for the help and replies!

[parrotchute]

oh, and I meant by the fighting chance - not as far as with others or alone, I meant - once they are symptomatic, is there much chance for recovery?

[wooden_reefer]

I can see how a LFS owner can QT at his property and then bring to his shop.

If he lives in a large property, say half acre, he can build sheds isolated from heat and cold to QT fish and then bring to his shop.

He has to charge higher prices and if he gives assurance he also has to demand that you buy livestock for that tank only from him. Otherwise moot. How would the law justify this? Find an expert that states that QT is necessary? Otherwise it would be anti-trust violation.

[wooden_reefer]

oh, and I meant by the fighting chance - not as far as with others or alone, I meant - once they are symptomatic, is there much chance for recovery?

Often symptomatic does not mean hopeless if treated early enough.

If you are not seeing protozoan infestation such as ich and oodinium, you should suspect bacterial infection or water chemical quality issue.

A pathogenic bacteria can be very virulent in the confinement of a tank.

You can treat in a QT with antibiotic and use UV in the DT (not QT as UV degrades antibiotics) for the duration.

UV is very helpful for prevention of bacterial infection in QT but once infection has firmly taken place the UV does not help much, only degrades the drug needed. At such a stage the last chance is antibiotic treatment.

Some antibiotics will only harm Nitrobacter somewhat not much nitrosonomas, this means you will have some nitrite but not much ammonia in QT if you use biological filtration in QT. Some are very potent and will wipeout biologiocal filter.

[parrotchute]

Hmmm, I'm suspecting pathogenic bacteria then. I see no obvious signs of parasitic infection (and also, if it was from the CBB, it would have transmitted in only 2 days, which seems too fast for a parasite). I don't think it's a water quality issue - I have good parameters, and no adverse reactions of corals/inverts/etc. I DO run UV, BUT my lights are >1 year old. I have replacement lights, I'll swap them out today. Maybe it can help save other fish.

If they make it overnight, I'll look at trying to set up a QT tomorrow and getting them some meds. What sort of filter should I use for a QT? I was thinking of using a plastic bin (20 gal), a powerhead, heater...

Thanks for the help wood!

[wooden_reefer]

Hmmm, I'm suspecting pathogenic bacteria then. I see no obvious signs of parasitic infection (and also, if it was from the CBB, it would have transmitted in only 2 days, which seems too fast for a parasite). I don't think it's a water quality issue - I have good parameters, and no adverse reactions of corals/inverts/etc. I DO run UV, BUT my lights are >1 year old. I have replacement lights, I'll swap them out today. Maybe it can help save other fish.

If they make it overnight, I'll look at trying to set up a QT tomorrow and getting them some meds. What sort of filter should I use for a QT? I was thinking of using a plastic bin (20 gal), a powerhead, heater...

Thanks for the help wood!

Generally, only bacterial infection, chemical water quality issue, oxygenation issues would kill a healthy fish within 24 hours.

If the CBB was indeed healthy and eating well with no sign of protozoan infestation, then it would be one of the above,

or being physically attacked without you seeing.

[MrTuskfish]

I can see how a LFS owner can QT at his property and then bring to his shop.

If he lives in a large property, say half acre, he can build sheds isolated from heat and cold to QT fish and then bring to his shop.

He has to charge higher prices and if he gives assurance he also has to demand that you buy livestock for that tank only from him. Otherwise moot. How would the law justify this? Find an expert that states that QT is necessary? Otherwise it would be anti-trust violation.
Does this have anything to do with the OPs questions?
He can say any livestock from other vendors voids any warranty. No violation of anything.

[parrotchute]

Yeah, no sign of physical trauma and my tangs don't seem to be the most aggressive representatives of their species..

Keeping my fingers crossed.

[wooden_reefer]

Does this have anything to do with the OPs questions?
He can say any livestock from other vendors voids any warranty. No violation of anything.

I am pointing out how difficult from many perspectives it is to expect an LFS to provide real QT.

It is technically possible under some circumstances, but legally it is difficult for an LFS to be rewarded, so it will not be done.

My posts all have reasons.

[wooden_reefer]

Does this have anything to do with the OPs questions?
He can say any livestock from other vendors voids any warranty. No violation of anything.

Moreover, why is it diffiucult for an LPS to benefit from rigorous QT?

It has to demand that his clients buy only from him.

Why?

Because one lapse and much previous QT effort goes down the drain.

Why is this not important to emphasize? It is a most important point.

People might think about these issues.

[wooden_reefer]

I actually suspect that a large fraction of LFS owners simply do not know how to QT.