Why are shimp so hard?

[jerkyjunky]

So I have my 120g DT + 60g sump up for about 3 months now. Every time I try to add an invert to the tank it dies. Tank has 4 fish that are doing fine and hasn't had ammonia since the end of the first month. Nitrates are down between 0-5ppm and DK is 9. I had some rust on a hose clamp during month one, but it has since been removed and I have run GAC twice now in 5 day increments. I have also done 4-5 32g water changes (as large as I can do in one sitting). I'm absolutely lost as to what I need to do to make the tank invert safe. Any questions or ideas?

[Sk8r]

Shrimp aren't hard. BUT:
principle reasons shrimp die: 1. predation. Shrimp often molt shortly after arrival. Softshelled, they are prey to other shrimp, crabs, and fish. Certain fish eat shrimp molted or not.
2. salinity bounce. If you don't have an autotopoff and are topping off quite at lot at once, shrimp and other crustaceans will suffer.
3. water out of balance. Look at my sig line and compare your own tests. I know I could put shrimp in my tank and not have a problem.

[jerkyjunky]

All the shrimp that I've found dead in my tank die within 5 days and appear always as partially molted when I removed them. Some just have their outside shell cracked slightly, one was even halfway out.

I have an ATO hooked up and keep my tank around 1.025 as much as possible. The shrimp are also 20 min temp acclimated + 1.5 hour drip acclimated.

pH is 8.15-8.2 with my sump lights setup to run at night to keep light on the water at all times. Temp is 75-77 F with my room temp always at 75 to ensure it never falls too low (really new house with awesome insulation). Ammonia/Nitrite is 0ppm, nitrate 0-5ppm, DK 9. Not sure what else to really test for. There are no corals in the system yet so I'm assuming DK, calc, and mag should all be ideal from the salt mix used.

Any ideas from there? Or anything I could test?

[tmerf11]

Have you tested to see if there's any copper in the water?? I could be mistaken, but I thought high levels of copper was toxic for inverts...

[mcintosh]

You could test for copper, normally that is only a problem if the tank were a fish only at some point and you treated for ich. My suggestion is to buy a poly-filter from poly-bio-marine and use it a instructed. If you have a heavy metal problem it will change the appropriate color as it removes the problem.
Your drip acclimation if great, but you shouldn't need to temp acclimate. If you are temp acclimating with the bag sealed you are doing more harm than good.

[jerkyjunky]

There has never been any copper in the water in form of meds or LFS water... There was the hose clamp mentioned in the original post, but as stated I have been running GAC and doing water changes. The clamp was stainless steel but rusted pretty badly which would release perhaps lead, zinc, and other metals. Hopefully though with the water changes and GAC that should be near 0.

One other strange thing though is the algae. I haven't really had any. The lights are on 11 hours a day with a 30 min warm up and cool down. They are SPS coral grade LEDs from a DIY running at near full power. I had a diatom bloom, but have since moved some rocks and haven't seen anything since then. So I'm wondering if that means something?

[EricShane]

I had the same problem several years ago.. Ended up being a mantis.. Then sometime later I had a psudochromus that killed my shrimp everytime I would try to add one, no I have finally succesfully kept a fire and a skunk for a year

[trinidiver]

So I have my 120g DT + 60g sump up for about 3 months now. Every time I try to add an invert to the tank it dies. Tank has 4 fish that are doing fine and hasn't had ammonia since the end of the first month. Nitrates are down between 0-5ppm and DK is 9. I had some rust on a hose clamp during month one, but it has since been removed and I have run GAC twice now in 5 day increments. I have also done 4-5 32g water changes (as large as I can do in one sitting). I'm absolutely lost as to what I need to do to make the tank invert safe. Any questions or ideas?


What kind of fish are they?

[jerkyjunky]

2x firefish and 2x green chromis. Neither of which have even gone near the shrimps, I think they are freaked out by them (as they are new). I've never seen any hitchhikers from my rocks, and I'm equating that to the rusty hose clamp in month 1. So I would be really shocked if there was some huge mantis hiding somewhere that was targeting my shrimps only when they molt. ;)

The 5ppm nitrates can't be it can it? I'm really grasping for straws? No more ideas what it could be, but it is pretty depressing to keep losing shrimp. =/

[cramideas]

Idk but i cant keep them for anything either so i gave up on them for awhile.

[jerkyjunky]

I don't know why they would care if there is algae in the tank or not, but I'm starting to wonder if there is a common reason between the lack of algae and their deaths... but no idea what that might be?

[Mr. Bill]

The lack of algae doesn't mean anything to the shrimp we keep- they feed on leftover meaty foods. What do you know about the LFS where you get them? What's their SG? How clean are their tanks? Do they use RO/DI water? It's quite possible that you are buying shrimp that are already weakened by the water conditions there, then add the stress from being moved and then molting...

[jerkyjunky]

The LFS from what I've seen has some decent fish/inverts. I've never see any fish moaping on the bottom of a tank or dead, and the shrimp tanks I purchase from have a lot of active happy creatures in them. They say their SG is 1.025 and obviously no copper meds in the invert tanks, and the tanks are spotlessly clean. If anything the shrimp look more active and happy in their tank then in mine, but no idea why... Could be though. I suppose you never know but hard to think they would be making much profit in their tank full of 15 or so cleaner shrimp are going to die on molting. Don't know how quick their turnover is... heh

The last 2 shrimp I had also were eating fine. One was very happy and social and cleaned my hand from day 1 willingly when I would go in to clean the glass or whatever. The second I fed mysis to by hand, so I'm sure it was eating. It however was much less social and never left his cave.

[jerkyjunky]

Does it sound like heavy metals could still be in the water? Or is that not a possibility?

[EricShane]

Do snails and hermits live?

[jerkyjunky]

I've tried turbos, star astraea, and nassarius snails. None make it past 4 days, and none go more than 2 days without visibly reduced movement.

[dread240]

double check your nitrate test kit #1.. no algae makes me think it's right, but high nitrates definitely wreak havoc on shrimp

what salt are you using and have you ever tested for iodine? it's used by many inverts and low levels will cause them to have problems molting correctly

[jerkyjunky]

I have not yet tested for iodine since I was assuming the salt would come with the trace elements needed for ONE cleaner shrimp... but I should perform a test to be sure... I'll go do that now. The salt is a mix of seachem reef salt and instant ocean reef crystals. As far as the nitrates I've taken water into the LFS to confirm my test kits are at least reasonably close.

[Slystone]

Just a thought because you talked about hand feeding. Is there a chance you have a chemical on your hands? Do you use antibacterial soap or alcohol antibacterial gels? Or chemicals from other hobbies?

[jerkyjunky]

I tried the iodine test, and either I'm a complete failure at following instructions or the iodine level is so close to 0 as to not register. Not sure on that one at all....

As far as your question Sly, I wash my hands in pure tap water (without soap) before I feed or work in the fishtank.

As a side note on the iodine though, that shouldn't have an impact on snails though right. Not for that short term of a time frame....

[joshPensacola]

shrimp are easy, ive never had to do anything or lost any. take your water to lfs and have them test everything. your water is bad.... likely copper

is all your stuff new? if it is used and someone ran copper to treat disease it can leach from the rocks.

inverts are easy, if they are dying you have a major water chemistry problem

[dread240]

believe me i'm no expert but browsing around and especially in some freshwater communities a lack of iodine has shown problems in shrimp and snails (mostly shrimp but snails as well too in various degrees)

I point to these mainly because they're not mixing up a salt which should replenish them, so they see it more often then not (and probably don't even do as frequent water changes as we do)

It's also of no surprise to hear of a salt batch or brand lacking in something. Try the test a few more times, pick up some kent iodine if it still reads low and add some slowly (retesting at various points)

wet skimming and media filtration has also been said to remove iodine, and I know of a few people that still swear by the drop a day for softies and sps coloration

[jerkyjunky]

shrimp are easy, ive never had to do anything or lost any. take your water to lfs and have them test everything. your water is bad.... likely copper

is all your stuff new? if it is used and someone ran copper to treat disease it can leach from the rocks.

inverts are easy, if they are dying you have a major water chemistry problem

I've never had to use copper on any of my fish yet **knock on wood** so there isn't even anything in my QT (which has a very happy star astrea in it btw (that is until I would need to dose it)).

Everything in completely new except the live rock which I suppose you might say was used by the ocean? ;)

I've taken samples to the fish store and they have said it was awesome and good for shrimp, but they have no tests for metals. As stated before I'm running GAC or activated carbon to remove any metals in the water and have been for about 10 days total now (5 recently and 5 about a month ago).

Dread, I hear what you are saying, and it makes total sense. I've heard from a ton of places that skimming will remove it pretty fast. I just have a hard time thinking that would kill a happy shrimp in 4 days... or even 1 molt. I could be wrong though? I mean we aren't even talking like they die after molt, but literally mid-molt as in they never come apart from their exoskeleton. :-/ The snails too. They get visible slower from the moment they are released from the ~2 hour acclimation. I've worried they haven't had enough food for whatever reason which is why I'm focusing more on the shrimp here. Since I know they were eating well enough.

[jerkyjunky]

Would my keeping my tank at 1.025 be risky for them? Would they prefer more of a 1.024?

I've also been reading that pH swings can affect them as well. My pH does drop from 8.2ish to 8.1ish at night, but that doesn't seem that large of a swing. Maybe though?

[reeferstace]

What kind of test kits are you using? How are you testing salinity? Refractometer? If so, is it calibrated properly?

[jerkyjunky]

I'm using API test kits and I don't remember the name of the iodine test kit. Salinity I'm using a hydrometer that reads 1 for rodi water, and taking multiple test to ensure I don't get a stray reading.

[jerkyjunky]

Could it be the case that the rock/sand has absorbed the heavy metals from month one's crisis, and they are releasing them slowly. It isn't copper, but if that is the case it could be killing them? If that is the case though, how does one remove heavy metals that have been absorbed like that? :uhoh2:

[zeebies]

Just tossing this out there... you could have a predator worm. That's what was taking out all of my nassarius snails. Here's a thread:

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?p=20986311

The last post includes a link to a homemade trap. You could set a trap and see if you come up with anything.

[jerkyjunky]

I know a worm would certainly kill off inverts like that, probably is the tank is brand new and only a little over 2 months out of cycle. Nothing could be in there of the size to hurt the inverts I've tried in those 2 months. I've also noticed the dead creatures being mid molt in the case of shrimp and slowly dying over time in the case of snails, so I'm positive it couldn't be that sort of thing.

Still leaning towards metals, but anyone know what to do if they have been absorbed into the rock work?

[dread240]

I had a polyclad, and things were just gone afterwards (i watched it consume a large astrea one night before i siphoned it out, nothing left after the attack)

I'm still stuck on the chemistry issue of the water. I cannot under any circumstances see a single rusting hose clamp being the issue. Tons of people run mag pumps in their tank and they all have metal screws on the front and I've seen them rust plenty of times, hell mine are.

Rust is basically GFO. The main heavy metal to worry about in your tank is copper, and if you've never used copper treatments, and it's not showing up on a test kit, i see no reason why there should be any copper in the system.

[Themadcow]

I was having the same problem with shrimp. I couldn't add one to my tank without it dying within 2 days. Turns out that my carbonate hardness level was very low, due to infrequent water changes and an inferior salt mix. I dosed over 3 days to bring the level back up to optimal, then I switched out my cheap salt for a better brand and voila, I have 2 peppermints and a cleaner and they are happy.

[jerkyjunky]

Yeah KH was at 9 in my test (slight change at 8 drops, full change at 9). So I'm low on the scale for cleaners (should be 8-12 according to live aquaria), but within the range. Would you raise that with Kalk mix?

And yeah no copper has gone into the system unless the rocks had copper on them before they shipped from fosters and smith? REALLY doubt that. I hate to think it is just super bad luck.

So the only things I could think to try at this point would be are...
1) Carbon pump thing (that tube that pumps water through it to force it to go through GAC).
2) Cuprisorb which is suppose to absorb heavy metals and is color changing when used up which is nice (hopefully my LFS has something like that).
3) Check LFS to confirm my hydrometer is right. I've checked it with RODI to confirm 1.000, but never hurts to check.
4) Try Kalk to raise KH slightly.
5) Adjust ATO to refill smaller amounts to limit any salinity swings.

Anything in that list seem stupid? Any other ideas? Plan to go to the LFS on Friday to spend some money... heh

[dread240]

yea, the hydrometer in that list seems stupid :)

order yourself a good refractometer and calibration solution. I've seen plenty of people with that being off, and fish are a bit more tolerant of higher salinity then most inverts

[dustinc89]

I used to calibrate my refractometer with ro/di and always wondered why my calcium and kh were so low on my reef crystals... bought some calibration fluid (35ppt) and turns out my tank was at 1.023 and not the 1.026 I was aiming for

[dustinc89]

My cleaner shrimp were the first things in my tank and they have toughed it out through all my mishaps, like ATO ****ing up and dumping 4 gallons of kalk into my tank bringing my ph to ~9, and Cleaning my filtersocks with Tide for 4 months haha... yet all my sps lps softies and fish are awesome I only lost a clownfish due to carpet surfing and a copper band butterfly due to my green brittle star than is now in the sump...

[jerkyjunky]

I have heard some people try to make their own calibration fluid with a set amount of rodi and salt mix. Thinking of trying that real quick against my hydrometer to see how off it might be. Sadly for the sake of this argument... the QT is home to a lovely snail, and is setup with my same hydrometer. I find it unlikely he is just a super snail heh. Still could be... but yeah... at least a LFS test would tell me if I'm super off or not.

[Slystone]

From what I have read here, you may be drip acclimating them too long. Try getting them in the tank in 30 min.

[jerkyjunky]

So I was doing some math (VERY ROUGH), on my water change bucket vs salt mix added using a calculator online. If my numbers are true, my hydrometer is off, and my display tank could be running at ~1.028-1.029. Going to go to LFS to see if they can refractometer it tomorrow or the next day. I know live aquaria has the shrimp wanting 1.023-1.025. Would 1.028 be enough to kill them on molting?

[jerkyjunky]

Also sly the reason for the 1.5 hour acclimation was because the shrimp I put in at 30 min acclimation died, and someone said to try longer... didn't seem to help in that regard. Plus they were making it ~4 days, wouldn't a salinity shock or ammonia death either way happen faster? >_> I'm still not positive on a solid acclimation period, but I might invest in some ammonia locking solution to use during the time to reduce ammonia stress during the acclimation.

[biggles]

I think you will have a hard time narrowing down the problem unless you try to remove some obvious possibilities. I suggest placing a few snails or a cheap shrimp in a holding container in the tank so water flows through easily but no predators can reach the snails/shrimp. If they die within days your water is the problem. You could also try a quarantine tank for the new shrimp with nothing used from the DT. A bucket with a heater and small powerhead for movement etc. Good luck but as others have stated keeping shrimp is not at all difficult so i'm thinking you definitely have an issue in your DT. :)

[jerkyjunky]

Yeah I'm confident the issue is with the water. I'm also positive there is no harmful life attacking or threatening the shrimp. Could be high salinity or metals, or something else...

Still though anyone know what a salinity of 1.028 would do to cleaners?

[jerkyjunky]

Refractometer read 1.027, so I'll be dropping my salinity a bit over the next few days. Still curious if that would really be that big of a problem for the inverts? Anyone know?

[dustinc89]

1.028 would not kill shrimp, i have a friend who has a nano tank that jumps up to 1.029 if he forgets to top off for a couple days they are tough little guys, although I would recommend getting a refractometer and calibration fluid. it will save you money and grief in the long run.
I would get a build or buy a cheap fry holder from the lfs and buy a couple cheap inverts and throw them in there

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e6-5X8OUefY

[dustinc89]

1.028 would not kill shrimp, i have a friend who has a nano tank that jumps up to 1.029 if he forgets to top off for a couple days they are tough little guys, although I would recommend getting a refractometer and calibration fluid. it will save you money and grief in the long run.
I would get a build or buy a cheap fry holder from the lfs and buy a couple cheap inverts and throw them in there

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e6-5X8OUefY

[jerkyjunky]

Yeah the 1.027 was read with my new refractometer after using the calibration fluid it came with. The LFS says its shrimp are kept at 1.023, so perhaps acclimating them up to 1.027 in 1.5 hours was still too much too fast? Not sure. Going to drop my tank to 1.024 and try another invert in a few days. Also put some cuprisorb in the tank to polish off any metals (if there are any).