Drain Plumbing

[joseperezred]

can any one please tell me if i will have any issues with my drain if i plumb it like shown in the picture. i have three drains on my 240 which has the over flow box in the center. from left to right the first drain will be all done with 2' pipe it will be starting with a 2' 90then shot straight down to the left another 90 then about 3' forward and another 90 going into sump.
second drain will be the back up, little water should be pouring from here so i will do this one starting with a 2' to 1 1/2 reducer 90 pointing to the front about 3-4inch pipe then 90 going left along side the 2' for main drain then as it bumps up to it at the end another 90 going towards the front of the tan then again 90 sending it to the left and last 90 going down into sump.
3rd drain will be emergency i am thinking of doing this one with tubing and just have it go straight to sump where skimmer will be as this is emergency i expect nothing to be coming down unless of course its an emergency.....

my only concern is all 90's i have using on both drains ... will it cause a slow drain i have to pretty much do it like this due to limited space and the hoses ive tried using they would kink too much as they go into sump due to space.

please help....

thanks in advance..

[uncleof6]

You are implementing a BeanAnimal siphon system?

Horizontal runs in the lines will cause starting issues, by air locking the lines, reducing the drain capacity, preventing the siphon from fully starting. The lines need to be kept angled down. Do not reduce the diameter of the "open channel," or as you put it: the second drain. All three lines should be configured as identically as possible. this prevents possible capacity differences, and varying starting characteristics, that could be disastrous.

For functionality you pretty much need either a taller stand, a shorter sump, or both.

[joseperezred]

You are implementing a BeanAnimal siphon system?

Horizontal runs in the lines will cause starting issues, by air locking the lines, reducing the drain capacity, preventing the siphon from fully starting. The lines need to be kept angled down. Do not reduce the diameter of the "open channel," or as you put it: the second drain. All three lines should be configured as identically as possible. this prevents possible capacity differences, and varying starting characteristics, that could be disastrous.

For functionality you pretty much need either a taller stand, a shorter sump, or both.

Ok.... I was afraid you'd say that :(. I do have both drain Lines going at an angle down to help with the flow. I have more room to angle them down even more maybe another 1/2-1" would this help?

[FIREFISHPAT]

Put 45 degree elbow instead of 90 degree elbow. More flow going down..

[uncleof6]

Every degree down helps. Ideally, you want them 45° down or more.

[joseperezred]

Put 45 degree elbow instead of 90 degree elbow. More flow going down..

[joseperezred]

due to low clearance that's the best i can do... i was thinking i can cut the bulk head a little more maybe 1-1 1/2 inch more to give it a more angle on the drain pipe...my concern is the 90 at the end will that give me problems?

[uncleof6]

It is a gamble. It may work, it may not.

[joseperezred]

It is a gamble. It may work, it may not.



ok i shall find out.... im going to give it a shot like this now the only thing im worrying about is the siphon not starting up right away correct? so wouldnt the second drain and the emergency help with time? eventually itll start and it should run good no?

[uncleof6]

If the main siphon does not start fully, due to air locking, it will reduce the flow capacity. It may appear to be working, but the open channel will be taking a lot of the flow, and on a restart, it may fail to start at all.

[joseperezred]

If the main siphon does not start fully, due to air locking, it will reduce the flow capacity. It may appear to be working, but the open channel will be taking a lot of the flow, and on a restart, it may fail to start at all.


aw man wish this would be easier lol....

:sad2: :sad2:

[uncleof6]

It is: Build a taller stand, use a shorter sump, or both! :D

[joseperezred]

It is: Build a taller stand, use a shorter sump, or both! :D


Lol I am trying to avoid building a stand as the set up I got Is a nice matching stand and canopy. Looks like a shorter sump it is but before that I'm going to set it up like so angle as much as I can and test it and run it with just water see how it runs for a few days shut it off turn it on and see where we're at if it all fails I have a back up sump that came with the set up only thig is I'm going to need an internal return pump. Any suggestion on any?

[uncleof6]

Going to be pushing your luck trying to find a submersible pump that will serve this tank....You can run a couple RLSS Waveline DC-10000s, for less than it will cost you to run a single external for this tank.

It might be a nice matching stand and canopy, but you can't fit your plumbing in it, with the current sump--making it not so nice. In this hobby, you quickly find out, that doing something well the first time, costs less than doing it twice, or thrice, before you get it right. I can't guarantee that your plumbing won't work, but it is a gamble. I don't like gambling, hence the saying: "Function before aesthetics."

Looking at that sump (from what I can see of it) I would file 13 it anyway.... it looks like a converted Trickle Filter, not very well designed, the water level is going to be too high, and not really suitable for a system this size. Not trying to offend you or upset you, I just sorta shoot from the hip. :)

[joseperezred]

Going to be pushing your luck trying to find a submersible pump that will serve this tank....You can run a couple RLSS Waveline DC-10000s, for less than it will cost you to run a single external for this tank.

It might be a nice matching stand and canopy, but you can't fit your plumbing in it, with the current sump--making it not so nice. In this hobby, you quickly find out, that doing something well the first time, costs less than doing it twice, or thrice, before you get it right. I can't guarantee that your plumbing won't work, but it is a gamble. I don't like gambling, hence the saying: "Function before aesthetics."

Looking at that sump (from what I can see of it) I would file 13 it anyway.... it looks like a converted Trickle Filter, not very well designed, the water level is going to be too high, and not really suitable for a system this size. Not trying to offend you or upset you, I just sorta shoot from the hip. :)


No Offense taken at all I really appreciate your suggestions and comments. Bottom line it is what it is and I just got to make it work or fix it. I do have a tank that came with the system it's basically a 55 gal tank forgot the dimensions but its a lot shorter and longer only this is it don't have baffles so I will need to design and install them myself (never done that. Don't even know where to start lol silicone, glue, baffles) anyway so I was going to finish plumbing it tonight throw the water hose on it fill it up and run it see how it runs and drains.

SUMP: the sump I bought from a long time buddy who was in the hobby for years and was selling live stock and stuff from home he started a business and got out of the hobby as he was left with no time for this hobby. He was running a 270 and had this sump and refugium set up on it. The sump was made that way for his skimmer which I also got (bubble magus 220CS) it works great at 10' under water. I'm currently using it on my 60gal cube

[RobinsonFam1]

another idea may be to drill a bulkhead into the side of the sump at a low level to allow more drop and less lateral. this would also help with keeping siphon during power outage too since exit will be below water line.

cant tell from pics if its possible or not. depends on clearance around sump and stand or if you can turn sump around to have drains come straight in vs horizontal.

bubble traps are really not 100% needed. they are nice to have if you "need" them but its not always the case. it really depends on how fast the water is flowing through the sump that determines the need. and of course how many bubbles you're fighting too.

[RobinsonFam1]

another idea may be to drill a bulkhead into the side of the sump at a low level to allow more drop and less lateral. this would also help with keeping siphon during power outage too since exit will be below water line.

cant tell from pics if its possible or not. depends on clearance around sump and stand or if you can turn sump around to have drains come straight in vs horizontal.

bubble traps are really not 100% needed. they are nice to have if you "need" them but its not always the case. it really depends on how fast the water is flowing through the sump that determines the need. and of course how many bubbles you're fighting too.

[joseperezred]

another idea may be to drill a bulkhead into the side of the sump at a low level to allow more drop and less lateral. this would also help with keeping siphon during power outage too since exit will be below water line.

cant tell from pics if its possible or not. depends on clearance around sump and stand or if you can turn sump around to have drains come straight in vs horizontal.

bubble traps are really not 100% needed. they are nice to have if you "need" them but its not always the case. it really depends on how fast the water is flowing through the sump that determines the need. and of course how many bubbles you're fighting too.


Thanks RobinsonFam!. i appreciate your comment and you trying to help me... however i think i might of found my solution...... check it out..... let me know what you think of this too uncleof6..


so after showing people from work what im trying to accomplish and my disappointment oh how i didnt measure anything before buying and how all this might just go to waste one of my guys advised me to look into one of our plumbing vendors and see what parts they had to make my system work (not saying it is but what do you think fellas?) so i found these 2' threaded barbs and they came in 90's or straight, so i thought about it and figured what if instead of using 2' pvc piping a long with a bunch of 45 and 90's why not use one 90 2inch barb and one 2inch straight barb. ill be replacing my bulk heads from my drain to be threaded at the bottom, screw the 90degree barb into the bottom of my drain the use a street 90 2inch along with a slip to thread adapter to be able to screw in the straight barb and then just buy 2inch hose, clamp the two together and whalla! done ill be doing the same to the second drain and the EMERGENCY DRAIN..... SEE PICTURE.... sooo what do you guys think??? will it work or not? i was thinking of dropping the 90 barb from the drain a little but i think this way it will work better then putting it parallel as the straight barb....... any comments? suggestions?
thanks in advance...

[uncleof6]

Barb fittings, will reduce the functional cross sectional area of the drain system, as it will be the smallest diameter. Flow rate is determined by the smallest diameter, and the smallest diameter would be the inside diameter of the barb fitting which will be below 2". I do not recommend the use of barb fittings, despite what may seem to be convenience.

If wanting to use flexible piping, then use spa flex. It does not restrict the drain system the way barb fittings do, as the piping uses standard pvc fittings.

another idea may be to drill a bulkhead into the side of the sump at a low level to allow more drop and less lateral. this would also help with keeping siphon during power outage too since exit will be below water line.

Have to be careful where the drain discharge is in relation to the water level. If the discharge is deeper than 1", it is likely the system will not develop enough head pressure to purge the air out of the siphon, preventing the system from starting. #1 reason for start failure with a siphon system. There is no siphon to maintain when the power goes out. The water will all drain to the sump, and the system will auto restart the siphon when the power comes on, provided the guidelines for building the system are followed, and the system is adjusted properly.

cant tell from pics if its possible or not. depends on clearance around sump and stand or if you can turn sump around to have drains come straight in vs horizontal.

To be honest, that will not help the weak design of this sump. Certainly a straight shot would help the drain system considerably over the way it is designed now.

bubble traps are really not 100% needed. they are nice to have if you "need" them but its not always the case. it really depends on how fast the water is flowing through the sump that determines the need. and of course how many bubbles you're fighting too.

Very true. Only to add that the main source of bubbles in the sump is the drain system. This system (BA) is bubble free when fully started and running. But the problem with this sump is not the lack of a bubble trap. It is a lemon, and a VERY sour one at that. ;) There are reasons, such as the under pass in the picture. This leaves an oil slick that kills gas exchange at the surface of the water. Very counter productive.

[joseperezred]

So basically if I'm going to take a risk or as you stated a gamble and plumb this horrably design sump, im better off not using the barbs and plumb it how i was originally going to do so with 2inch PVC and 45's and 90's? ( I know.. I know... Just get a new sump/stand or both, but just as a curiosity which of these two current methods would work best? ) barb spa flex hose and then barb again or 45,45, pipe, 90, pipe, 90 into sump.???

[uncleof6]

So basically if I'm going to take a risk or as you stated a gamble and plumb this horrably design sump, im better off not using the barbs and plumb it how i was originally going to do so with 2inch PVC and 45's and 90's? ( I know.. I know... Just get a new sump/stand or both, but just as a curiosity which of these two current methods would work best? ) barb spa flex hose and then barb again or 45,45, pipe, 90, pipe, 90 into sump.???

The truth? NONE OF THE ABOVE. :D

Heat formed spa flex, (or heat formed hard pipe for that matter) in the geometry of a wide shallow swept "S", angled down, but using 2 straight fittings, one at each end. I have in in my head, but hard to explain. You probably can't get 45° however. I could probably get it in there and working. But then again, I just MIGHT cut off the top half of that sump--rather than pull my hair out--I can't afford to do that-- lol. I do feel your pain though. However, I do think the answer lays with the sump height. :deadhorse:

OH and just to make matters worse for you, spa flex does not use barb fittings, rather standard pvc fittings and pvc cement.

[joseperezred]

Yea that heating method won't work as room for those really thick and hard to fold and bend spa flex tubing are.... Originally I had started with that but ended up taking it back. Too stiff.

[uncleof6]

Yea that heating method won't work as room for those really thick and hard to fold and bend spa flex tubing are.... Originally I had started with that but ended up taking it back. Too stiff.

UMMMM i will argue with you on this one. I will be nice though. ;) With a heat gun (1200 watt hair dryer just as well,) I can tie a length of hard pipe in a square knot, or throw some marinara over it and spin it on a spoon with a fork. A little trick learned in the Electrical trade.

But yes it is not easy and takes a bit of practice. Try things out and see what you have to work with. The thing with gambling is a double edged sword. Reality could be that the drain zen is with you, and your experiences would help others, as well as add to the collective knowledge concerning this drain system. Doing commissioned systems, I cannot afford to gamble, better known as experimenting.