Why Do They Keep Dying

[mossyfish]

Hello All,

I'm new to Reef Central and new to the saltwater hobby, so this is my first post. About 6 weeks ago I set my system up, I have a 30g with a 20g wet/dry sump, I have 50lb of LS and about 30lb of LR. About 2 weeks ago, I introduced some mushrooms to my tank and within a week they sailed off to mushroom heaven:( The LPS said the levels in the tank are good and they don't know why they died. So... I though maybe I needed to let my system run a little longer... and just yesterday I got a couple more mushrooms and some zoanthids... and like before they are looking as though they aren't going to make it. The zoanthid have closed up and haven't reopened yet (which they did in the bag when I was floating they to get the temp acclimated) and they mushroom is all shriveled, the edges are looking frayed and the color is pretty much gone. I'm very anal about making sure my levels are good, which they are all right where they should be. Also, I forgot to mention I have a diatoms bloom happening right now, I'm doing water changes to help get rid of them.

So can anyone HELP!?!?! Everything I've ever read about mushroom and zoanthid corals are that they are very hardy and very hard to kill. Well... I'm on my second batch and looking like I've managed to kill them both!!:(

Thanks!

[Nano sapiens]

You'll need to post your parameters (Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrate, pH, temp)

I like to wait at least a few months before adding any corals to make sure the new system has cycled and stabilized.

[potterjon]

^+1 on parameters. Are you testing them yourself or relying on them to test it?
Do you have any fish in there? Your tank is pretty young for corals in general. Sounds like a very sterile environment for them especially without any fish.

[mossyfish]

I don't have any fish in there at the moment. I'm testing my own parameters, I'm using an API master test kit. The parameters are:
PH - 8.2/8.3
Ammonia - 0
Nitrites - 0
Nitrates - around 5
Temp - 77-76
Well... that's a little upsetting that the LPS would tell me it's ok to add coral to that young of a tank :sad2:

[wnppmy]

Can be frustrating at the start. Diatoms do happen especially at the start. They can be siphoned out. Make sure your using filtered water. Don't see a mention of salinity, I use a Refractomer as horrible distorted readings with the arm one.

Just me but might consider adding a small fish, feeding etc helps on the eventual steady cycle.

Anxious to see what others suggest.

[wnppmy]

You've certainly been patient, go easy, easy to make more changes than necessary adding to issues, hang in there.

My impression is things are abit sterile as mentioned.

[potterjon]

I would think you want some fish first. Get a fish and let him poo and dirty up the water for awhile before you start getting corals. What kind of light do you have? How did you cycle?

[mossyfish]

yeah... I think that's what I'm going to need to do, get a couple fish first, any suggestions besides damsels?

My salinity is running around 1.023 (I'm starting to hate this arm style hydrometer, not very consistent with the readings!) Not sure on the type of light, I got it from by brother-in-law, I know he spent good money for it, but I just ordered the Marineland Reef Capable LED Lighting System, and should be here early next week. It's 1670 lumen, which from my understanding is enough light. I appreciate all the help, it's frustrating when you're new at this and don't know what the hell is going on:headwalls:

[mossyfish]

Can I get a layman's version of what "Cycle" means? Not sure I quite understand what exactly it is. Like is said, I'm just starting out :confused:

Would it be a good idea to turn off my skimmer until things have balanced out?

[Nano sapiens]

yeah... I think that's what I'm going to need to do, get a couple fish first, any suggestions besides damsels?

My salinity is running around 1.023 (I'm starting to hate this arm style hydrometer, not very consistent with the readings!) Not sure on the type of light, I got it from by brother-in-law, I know he spent good money for it, but I just ordered the Marineland Reef Capable LED Lighting System, and should be here early next week. It's 1670 lumen, which from my understanding is enough light. I appreciate all the help, it's frustrating when you're new at this and don't know what the hell is going on:headwalls:


Read, read and read some more. Examine successful tanks and see how they are set up and run. Take advice from those who are successful and have nothing to gain by giving you their advice/experience.

1. Swing-arm type hydrometers tend to be consistent, but can read consistently 'off'. I'm old school, so I take my 25 year old device to the local LFS once a year to have it checked against a few of their calibrated refractometers so that I know my true Specific Gravity. I'd suggest strongly that you do the same...or buy a refractometer.

2. I was looking through the Marineland LED specs:

Size 1W White 1W Blue PAR/LUX 12" PAR/LUX 24" Lumens
18"-24" 18 3 130/12700 64/5870 1305
24"-36" 23 4 130/12700 64/5870 1670
36"-48" 36 6 130/12700 64/5870 2610
48"-60" 46 8 130/12700 64/5870 3340

PAR is the most useful. Unclear if that is PAR at 12" through water, 12" through half water/half air or 12" through the air (ditto for the 24"). Maybe someone who has these will comment on their experience with them as far as what they have been able to keep long-term.

[Nano sapiens]

Can I get a layman's version of what "Cycle" means? Not sure I quite understand what exactly it is. Like is said, I'm just starting out :confused:

Would it be a good idea to turn off my skimmer until things have balanced out?

A tank is 'cycled' when the various bacteria are in balance to efficiently process ammonia to nitrite to nitrate and then on to denitrification. Any ammonia or nitrite readings suggest that the tank hasn't finished cycling, but yours looks like it has.

Yes, you can turn it off. The skimmer is stripping the water of any nutrients. As mentioned, you can try a fish at this point to get some waste into the tank. After you have more life in the tank that is doing well, the skimmer can be brought back on line if you like (many tanks run without skimmers, too, so it's not essential but is an aid to reduce nutrients). Mushrooms and zoanthids like some nutrients in the water, so that is likely why they haven't been doing well, yet.

[Yedgy]

You mentioned temperature-acclimating your mushrooms and zoas. Did you also acclimate them by dripping or by slowly adding your tank water to the shipping bag?

[mossyfish]

Thank you Nano for all the advice, I really appreciate it! I'm sure I will be posting many more times :hmm5:

Yedgy - Yes, I slowly added water to the bag. Is this wise to do with fish as well? I think I'm going to run out today and get some, or maybe order some online. Can anyone recommend a good/reputable online place to get fish?

[potterjon]

I would try and steer clear of a damsel. They are aggressive.
It sounds like you haven't really cycled yet if you are asking what it is. Read about "cycling" before you get a fish. You can cycle with a fish but that is kind of old school. I would do a small piece of shrimp.

[jason_bradbury]

you need more tests...calcium, phosphate, oxygen, strontium, magnesium, ph..my experience is you need all these levels right..or within reason..your correct mushrooms and zoas are hardy and if they died, somethings wrong, after 6 wks you finished your cycle..and you said you did water changes so thats good..if all your levels are good then its a problem with your system..your pump needs to circulate the water 7 times an hour , it may have been your lighting, i saw you ordered new lights sooo problem solved..i def recomend getting a fish. damzels suck bc theyre not very friendly...but theyre only $4 ..so if they die...thats not good but its not the same as losing a $50 fish..

ohh...dont add too much iodine..i just had a problem with that ...i was adding all the norms..mag, cal, trace, potas, and....iodine...and my mushrooms were looking huge and then one day they shriveled up and looked terrible..i read a bunch of posts and read that adding iodine wil nuke your tank...so i did a cpl water changes, stopped the iodine and theyre starting to look good again..

good luck

[organism]

My salinity is running around 1.023 (I'm starting to hate this arm style hydrometer, not very consistent with the readings!)

99.9% sure that's your problem right there since the issues you're describing are really common with poor salinity measurement. If you aren't using a refractometer calibrated with 35ppt refractometer calibration fluid then you're not getting accurate readings, and swing-arm hydrometers are literally the most inaccurate salinity measuring device in the hobby.

Think of how much it costs to have corals die, which will for sure continue to happen in your tank, and then make room in your budget for a refractometer with calibration fluid.

[kallan]

The bacteria may have not had enough time to colonize throughout the tank and sump without some sort of food source...flake food or a shrimp while cycling. You might be experiencing a bit of die off from your live rock as well. I use Microbe Lift Nite Out II and also their Special Blend for my tanks to add bacteria to help break down the organics and in setting up my new tanks. Water changes are a great way to keep parameters in check in a small tank. Be sure to top off your tank daily with reverse osmosis and deionized water, if available, to keep salinity stable. Hang in there, this will pass...

[organism]

Yedgy - Yes, I slowly added water to the bag. Is this wise to do with fish as well?

Corals only need to be temperature acclimated and can then be placed in the tank, acclimating corals slowly with tank water can kill them due to ammonia in the bags. Also, +1 to what people have said about possible cycling still going on, don't go adding new stuff until you figure out what the issues are.

[zoo minsi]

just to reaffirm. We had a swing arm hydrometer me and my son were using on his tank. always got it right on 1.025 we just recently picked up a refractometer and the same water measured 1.042 so ya they can be consistently off and by a bit. hope this helps.

[potterjon]

I would think that water changes would keep your parameters in line for the most part, as you don't have anything consuming calcium and alkalinity. As for dosing all the other stuff I would just steer clear. You don't need all those test kits and all those supplements. Give the tank time. Add corals later. Much later.

[philosophile]

30g is also a pretty small volume of water... So evaporation and top-off might be issues as well. Is you water Reverse osmosis?

[RA]

you need more tests...calcium, phosphate, oxygen, strontium, magnesium, ph..my experience is you need all these levels right..or within reason..your correct mushrooms and zoas are hardy and if they died, somethings wrong, after 6 wks you finished your cycle..and you said you did water changes so thats good..if all your levels are good then its a problem with your system..your pump needs to circulate the water 7 times an hour , it may have been your lighting, i saw you ordered new lights sooo problem solved..i def recomend getting a fish. damzels suck bc theyre not very friendly...but theyre only $4 ..so if they die...thats not good but its not the same as losing a $50 fish..

ohh...dont add too much iodine..i just had a problem with that ...i was adding all the norms..mag, cal, trace, potas, and....iodine...and my mushrooms were looking huge and then one day they shriveled up and looked terrible..i read a bunch of posts and read that adding iodine wil nuke your tank...so i did a cpl water changes, stopped the iodine and theyre starting to look good again..

good luck

I think you are making this much more difficult than it needs to be. Test for oxygen & strontium. Really? Your local fish store must love you. Also Iodine is now believed that it does more harm than good and most experts suggest that you don't dose it. With all the tests you listed you make no mention of testing for Alk, which is very important. As others have mentioned a refractometer is very good to have. I would get a couple of inexpensive fish and make sure that they survive for a couple of weeks before adding more coral. Just remember that nothing good happens fast in a reef tank. Good Luck.

[Dapg8gt]

^^ totally agree I was gonna say something but didn't ... If I were you I would def read up on a proper cycle.. Did you add anything to start the cycle? It's good that you had the patience to wait it out so your on the right track..

As for the hydrometer I totally agree they can be off on te number displayed but it will consistently be off the same IF that makes sense.. So go to the LFS and Test some of the water the have in the system and make a mark (sharpie) on your hydrometer where 1.026/35% is if thats what their coral tanks are at.. So that way you can shoot for that and know where you are without guessing. Or just get a Refractometer and be sure to either get calibration fluid or like I do you can make your own with a ratio of table salt and RODI..

My only advice is go to the new to the hobby forum and read all the stickies and whatever else catches your attention. You are doing things right so far mainly by posting this and trying to figure it out. And as stated patience is key in reefing. Doing too much too fast or soon or unecessary things as reccomended earlier in this thread will lead to problems and wasted life and money.. Again good luck.


Oh and if you can return that marineland light do it asap..in short they are crap.. Read the reviews on them they will have issues and they aren't very reef capable.. I had a friend who got suckered into getting one for a frag tank and it was seriously underpowered and couldn't even keep softies alive. Burned out diodes and finally started to smell like burnt plastic and he threw it away a few months after he got it in frustration..You should look into what the light is you have and see if it's better to just change the bulbs if you say he paid good money for it depending on what it is..But seriously look into that light and return it. If its a money thing look into a reef breeders/evergrow value fixture. It will literally grow any coral you want for cheap. Or anything other than that light LOL.

[Overgrown]

you need more tests...calcium, phosphate, oxygen, strontium, magnesium, ph..my experience is you need all these levels right..or within reason..your correct mushrooms and zoas are hardy and if they died, somethings wrong, after 6 wks you finished your cycle..and you said you did water changes so thats good..if all your levels are good then its a problem with your system..your pump needs to circulate the water 7 times an hour , it may have been your lighting, i saw you ordered new lights sooo problem solved..i def recomend getting a fish. damzels suck bc theyre not very friendly...but theyre only $4 ..so if they die...thats not good but its not the same as losing a $50 fish..

ohh...dont add too much iodine..i just had a problem with that ...i was adding all the norms..mag, cal, trace, potas, and....iodine...and my mushrooms were looking huge and then one day they shriveled up and looked terrible..i read a bunch of posts and read that adding iodine wil nuke your tank...so i did a cpl water changes, stopped the iodine and theyre starting to look good again..

good luck

You don't need all of these tests.Get a good Alk, Ca, and Mg test , use them often, and keep up on your weekly water changes.