Pod-maximizing refugia

[rlpardue]

Hi everyone,

I originally posted this in the General Discussion section but decided to move it because I want to encourage a thoughtful and patient discussion of an important subject.

My goal for this thread will be to invite collaborative input on how to MAXIMIZE POD PRODUCTION in refugia! I feel that this purpose of refugia is always overlooked in online forums, or diverted into related topics (e.g., nitrate reduction, DSB vs BB, caulerpa vs chaeto, flow, etc). Now some of those topics DO have a bearing on the production of pods, and to the extent that such topics are relevant to pod production, they are acceptable topics for discussion here. Other than that, such topics are best left to other threads. I invite you all to offer experiences, links, and even hearsay so that we can get a good discussion going for posterity regarding how to maximize refugia-generated zooplankton, pods, microfauna for feeding a Display Tank.

To start with, we shall assume that one purpose of refugia is to provide a predator-free zone in which small crustaceans and other life forms can FEED, BREED, and flow into a DT as FOOD for corals and fish. Thus, RDSBs for nitrate reduction would be located in a separate refugium.

Query #1: Sand Bed

There are several alternatives available when it comes to sand (or the lack thereof). Bare-bottomed refugia make it easier to keep detritus from settling, but also do not provide a habitat for those organisms which live in, or lay eggs within, a sandbed. Therefore, I think that BB refugia will generally be excluded from this section because, whatever their benefits, they are not ideal environments for the purpose herein (producing microfauna).

RDSB vs. SSB (Remote Deep Sand Bed vs Shallow Sand Bed)
Does anyone have any knowledge of the extent to which a DSB located in a refugium would contribute to a greater number and VARIETY of micro-food critters making their way to the DT? THIS WOULD BE A GREAT AREA FOR INPUT! There is practically nothing online on this subject other than occasional references by Ron Shimek.

There are a number of reasons not to run a RDSB, but is pod production one of the reasons in favor of a DSB generally?

Also, do the various types of "Miracle Mud" products contribute to animal life in any way, either directly or indirectly (e.g.-they feed plants, plants feed animals)?

PLANT LIFE LOCATED IN REFUGIA
To what extent does plant life contribute to pod production within a refugium? I have heard that dosing phytoplankton to a refugium is one way to greatly improve the production of food organisms.

MACROALGAE - Given the fact that whenever I prune balls of chaeto, there are a TON of little copepods and amphipods which fall out, I imagine that they are either feeding directly on such macros, or feeding on something else that feeds on macros. Is there any data for this? How best to maximize pod-production with the use of various macros?

LIVE ROCK
Since LR brings such critters into our aquariums, we can assume for this thread that there will at least be a small quantity of LR in the POD-FUGE. For nutrient-export reasons, people may opt to raise LR above the level of sand, place LR in higher-flow areas, etc.

WATER FLOW
To what extent does water flow impact the productivity of a POD-FUGE?

TO LIGHT, OR NOT TO LIGHT?
To what extent does light, or the lack thereof, contribute to the production of microfauna? I've read somewhere that it is important to have a "dark period" in a refugium since some animals only feed in the dark. Is this true? (If so, we will all be frustrated that we ever added Caulerpa lol - do some research on this if you don't understand)

OTHER AREAS OF INTEREST
Are there any other practices which contribute to improved diversity and quantity of animal life in refugia?

I appreciate everyone's feedback and input here. I think that maximizing production of micro-fauna is a neglected purpose of refugia, and that our corals and fish will appreciate an increase in the amount of such "zooplankton" critters that refugiums are capable of producing.


Thanks!
Lee

[zachfishman]

Hopping on. I want to hear what other reefers have to say, I plan to plumb a refugium into my future reef to support a mandarin one day.

I don't know about sand, but a lot of pods inhabit the rubble bottomed sections of our frag tanks at work...

[rwb500]

i think the ideal refugium for this purpose would have a thin layer of sand, a layer and/or piles of rubble, gentle flow (middle section of most sumps is perfect i think), and lots of chaeto with no more than 18 hrs/day of light.

the ideal setup would also drain into the display, rather than being pumped. but that is usually not possible to achieve in most peoples setups. can someone link to a good discussion about pods vs. return pumps? I forget what the general consensus is.

[bjensen1253]

I have a 4inch sand bed in the display of my 220 which is really clean, losts of bristle worms and things all over the place. I also have a RBDB. My sump consists of 2 40 breeds the 2nd tank is a refug only. It has a 8inch sandbed with life rock and all kinds of crazy macro algae. I actually enjoy looking at my sump more then my display tank(sad i know). The flow through that 1 40 breeder is about 3,000 gallons per hour. I have observered very very large pod hanging out in there on the rock, some are about the size of a nickle. Another cool thing i noticed was mysis. I actually have mysis that live and breed in my sump. I didnt realize they can survive the freezing processes and hatch eggs. This was VERY cool to see. not to mention all the starfish stomella snails, brittle starfish ext that i see in there. I actually run my hand through the macro algae in my sump once a week and ring out my cheato to put more pods in my tank. I have also seen mysis free swimming before getting eaten.

[ReefKeeper64]

Also, what about macro algae type? Cheato is the most common macro algae by far but I have been experimenting recently with Red Titan algae and it seems to do the job just as well but is much easier to manage and is more pleasing to look at for everyone. Both algae types provide ample surface area to hide and forage but I don't know if the pods are technically foraging off the macro plant. Anyone know for sure?

[DonCorsean]

"Areas with high boat traffic did have a higher occurrence of copepod fatalities. Samples had shown 34% of copepods were dead in a highly-traveled channel while only 5-6% were dead in a marina and along a shoreline. The team discovered more copepod carcasses were found inside boat wakes (14%) than outside boat wakes (7%) and the amount of dead copepods increased with increasing turbulence intensity.

This suggests that turbulence generated by boats can be an important source of mortality among copepods,” Bickel added. “This could have a number of important impacts within aquatic systems.”


Read more:

http://r-e-e-f-b-u-i-l-d-e-r-s.com/2011/04/21/reef-aquarium-blend/

Interesting article

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

[Ron Reefman]

Chris, can you post a pic of the Red Titan macro algae? I have mostly chaeto in my sump (2' x 2' x 18"), but I have some red/purple leafy algae growing in my 75g anemone tank (attached to the same system). It grows some, as does my chaeto, but neither grows very fast. I think it's due to zero nitrates in the system (fuge with macro algae, 2' x 2' x 8" DSB, diy coil denitrator and 200+ lbs of very healthy LR).

To the OP, I had my DSB and refugium in the same 2' x 2' x 18" section of the sump and it worked OK for nutrient export but I didn't have a lot of pods. I've moved the fuge into the 2' x 2' section before the DSB which was a frag tank before. I haven't noticed any big change in pod numbers over the last 4-5 months even though I seeded the fuge with some live pods.

I think this is a very interesting topic and I hope it gets a lot of replies.

[patchesj]

Also curious about this, starting up my own new tank with HOB refugium. I've opted for a 3" sand bed and some LR rubble pieces from the main tank.

One point on lighting, I would think that pods reproduce and have a life cycle based on photo periods. They are probably also lunar cycle dependent, but that is a whole other thread. This should lend itself to as close to a 12 hour "day" as possible, but could be offset from the main tank for PH purposes assuming macro algae growth in refugium.

[ReefKeeper64]

Chris, can you post a pic of the Red Titan macro algae? I have mostly chaeto in my sump (2' x 2' x 18"), but I have some red/purple leafy algae growing in my 75g anemone tank (attached to the same system). It grows some, as does my chaeto, but neither grows very fast. I think it's due to zero nitrates in the system (fuge with macro algae, 2' x 2' x 8" DSB, diy coil denitrator and 200+ lbs of very healthy LR).

To the OP, I had my DSB and refugium in the same 2' x 2' x 18" section of the sump and it worked OK for nutrient export but I didn't have a lot of pods. I've moved the fuge into the 2' x 2' section before the DSB which was a frag tank before. I haven't noticed any big change in pod numbers over the last 4-5 months even though I seeded the fuge with some live pods.

I think this is a very interesting topic and I hope it gets a lot of replies.


Ron, Here is the Red Titan you asked about. This picture is a couple of months old now and the macro has nearly doubled since then. In fact, I put the extra macro in the little 10 gal pod tank to the right of the 40G. The growth really took off after turned up the lighting with a 120 watt Chinese LED unit. In addition to the macro, I also run bio-pellets and some GFO. My PO4 hovers around 0.07 and NO3 is always 0. I see plenty of rotifers and amphipods growing in and around it but I can't specifically say that I have alot of copepods as they are difficult to see for me. I have no idea if green cheato is preferred over red or even if it matters for that matter but was curious.

For more close up red titan pics, check out http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2230663
Saltwaternoob17 is the RC member that I got mine from and she has better pics.



http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k490/Chris_Sugdinis/DSC06704_zps4eb74d5a.jpg

[symon_say]

Interesting thread, i hope we get to some conclusion, what i have notice in my tank is that pods population grow when i feed heavily.

I will start feeding phyto to the fuge to see if this helps.

About substrate maybe instead of sand we can use crushed coral size aragonite or any kind of small rubble it will be better for small pods.

[Moort82]

I believe that a large variation of habitats will offer the most diversity. I've been a advocate of natural filtration so have mostly this type on my tank. I split this into several smaller tanks to see what was going on. This includes two different dsb's, several algae refugiums and a mud mangrove setup.
As these are all on the same system i will describe briefly what i find in each. Please note the dsb's aren't lit by anything but natural light. One is in front of a window so gets a lot of light and the other isn't but still gets dispersed natural light.

Starting with the sand beds they are very similar. They both have small rubble zones at the sides and have a 4" layer of sugar fine sand. Flow is laminar and by a gravity fed return. The prodominant life in these beds are mysids,, which swarm in their hundreds but are mostly small. Very few adults seem present. There is also good opulations of amphipods which build burrows in the sand as do the odd bristleworm.
The darker dsb which is much older also has a huge population of fan worms and i've witnessed planktonic spawning of an unidentified animal.

The algae refugiums have a mixture of algaes. They are lit on reverse cycles and the cheato/caulerpa and kelp sit above a shallow sand bed and rubble zones. Once again they are gravity fed. Amphipods are the biggest animal populations inhabiting the rubble zones especially. You do see them crawling all over the algae and i believe this is because they are not eating it but rather eating the bacterial/detrital films which cover them. There are plenty of stomatella snails, bristleworms, cucumbers, asterina's, mysids, copeods, fan worms, saghetti worms, spionid worms etc etc.

The final type of refugium is the mangrove/mud setup. This has prodominantly adult mysids. It is again gravity fed and the biggest congregation of life is in and between the roots of the mangroves. Again there is a rubble zone where you find a lot of amphipods and also good populations of copepods, worms, stars etc.

So from what i have seen the perfect refugia will have several zones. Some of these may not be easy to mix unless you have a large tank but i would have a dsb as this creates natural plankton from my experience. You would also have the shallow sand habitat at the surface for amphipods etc. I would also include an area where there is tight mixed algae growth but also one of more open algae growth. Mangroves don't work for everyone but caulerpa prolifera would be a suitable substitue imo. I do also advocate a natural photoperiod. I've never had too much problem with caulerpa if you choose the right species. Prolifera is perhaps the best and i'd avoid racemosa and taxifolia.
Rubble zones are also good as they provide a safe an inviting place to breed. I personally think that sand creats a larger diversity of life than the mud at least from personal experience and i'm not sold on the "benefits" of the mud anyway.
I always use gravity fed systems rather than pumps. I know this won't work with sumped refugia but it does mean a lot more of the animals survive the trip to the tank. Flow is variable as you get life in different areas. I plan to setup a cryptic zone soon with low flow and i've seen a few full of life. I believe too strong a flow doesn't let the food settle so isn't ideal for something like a deep sand bed. You also need to consider where equipment is placed as the usual placement of the skimmer and filter socks before the refugia will severely limit the amount of food which would be very detrimental to the populations within it. Ideally the skimmer would be completely seperate. Again something not normally easy to do.

I do feel one of the most important aspects which is often overlooked is feeding. Without the food source you will always be limiting your populations. Naturl food populations will be established in a mature system but it is always worth adding more food to boost populations from time to time. I also think it beneficial to add more life every now and then as some species will naturally prodominate or die off.

[ReefKeeper64]

I believe that a large variation of habitats will offer the most diversity. I've been a advocate of natural filtration so have mostly this type on my tank. I split this into several smaller tanks to see what was going on. This includes two different dsb's, several algae refugiums and a mud mangrove setup.
As these are all on the same system i will describe briefly what i find in each. Please note the dsb's aren't lit by anything but natural light. One is in front of a window so gets a lot of light and the other isn't but still gets dispersed natural light.

Starting with the sand beds they are very similar. They both have small rubble zones at the sides and have a 4" layer of sugar fine sand. Flow is laminar and by a gravity fed return. The prodominant life in these beds are mysids,, which swarm in their hundreds but are mostly small. Very few adults seem present. There is also good opulations of amphipods which build burrows in the sand as do the odd bristleworm.
The darker dsb which is much older also has a huge population of fan worms and i've witnessed planktonic spawning of an unidentified animal.

The algae refugiums have a mixture of algaes. They are lit on reverse cycles and the cheato/caulerpa and kelp sit above a shallow sand bed and rubble zones. Once again they are gravity fed. Amphipods are the biggest animal populations inhabiting the rubble zones especially. You do see them crawling all over the algae and i believe this is because they are not eating it but rather eating the bacterial/detrital films which cover them. There are plenty of stomatella snails, bristleworms, cucumbers, asterina's, mysids, copeods, fan worms, saghetti worms, spionid worms etc etc.

The final type of refugium is the mangrove/mud setup. This has prodominantly adult mysids. It is again gravity fed and the biggest congregation of life is in and between the roots of the mangroves. Again there is a rubble zone where you find a lot of amphipods and also good populations of copepods, worms, stars etc.

So from what i have seen the perfect refugia will have several zones. Some of these may not be easy to mix unless you have a large tank but i would have a dsb as this creates natural plankton from my experience. You would also have the shallow sand habitat at the surface for amphipods etc. I would also include an area where there is tight mixed algae growth but also one of more open algae growth. Mangroves don't work for everyone but caulerpa prolifera would be a suitable substitue imo. I do also advocate a natural photoperiod. I've never had too much problem with caulerpa if you choose the right species. Prolifera is perhaps the best and i'd avoid racemosa and taxifolia.
Rubble zones are also good as they provide a safe an inviting place to breed. I personally think that sand creats a larger diversity of life than the mud at least from personal experience and i'm not sold on the "benefits" of the mud anyway.
I always use gravity fed systems rather than pumps. I know this won't work with sumped refugia but it does mean a lot more of the animals survive the trip to the tank. Flow is variable as you get life in different areas. I plan to setup a cryptic zone soon with low flow and i've seen a few full of life. I believe too strong a flow doesn't let the food settle so isn't ideal for something like a deep sand bed. You also need to consider where equipment is placed as the usual placement of the skimmer and filter socks before the refugia will severely limit the amount of food which would be very detrimental to the populations within it. Ideally the skimmer would be completely seperate. Again something not normally easy to do.

I do feel one of the most important aspects which is often overlooked is feeding. Without the food source you will always be limiting your populations. Naturl food populations will be established in a mature system but it is always worth adding more food to boost populations from time to time. I also think it beneficial to add more life every now and then as some species will naturally prodominate or die off.


Thanks for sharing your experiences running multiple fuges in a single system. Most of us don't have the ability to see the variations as you have observed.

[reefervinny]

Just chiming in here with my 2 cents. At this point in my reef tank I have some good pod growth in my fuge. Currently I have a descent size CB shrimp down in my refugium and I am still getting good pod growth due to my "copepod condo". The condo houses some chaeto and some LR and keeps my CB from feasting all day. I still have tons of pods free swimming in my fuge even with the CB so close because I think they still nest pretty well in the big ball of Chaeto & ball of Caulerpa i have in the main part of the fuge. The copepod condo serves two benefits IMO. It gives the pods a safe spot if you have any predators in your refugium and also makes it easy to trasfer pods to my display tank. I simply take out the pod condo and hang it in my display tank for a few days to a week and then drop back in the fuge for "pod restocking". Just a option I would throw out there.

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll309/dynastyfloors/90%20Gallon%20Reef/C8D7328F-EA4D-4F93-92FC-E17EC9D0FB65-4973-000005BAC937680E_zpsd7ddc130.jpg

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll309/dynastyfloors/90%20Gallon%20Reef/5A8558C0-FB62-44EF-9F80-43893939FCFE-4973-000005BABC0F83D7_zps08e1c281.jpg

[Moort82]

The condo is a great idea. I've used cups filled with rubble which i feed and rotate from tank to refugium in the past.

[jscarlata]

great idea with that piod condo, im going to try somethign like that...when i got a mandarin i added many bags of pods from reefs2go, but havent added any since the summer. i saw my mandarin last night and he was fat and happy...but i plan on getting some suplpements as soon as i can arrange a delivery on a day i can work at home...

[SeedlessOne]

I also just started using a pod condo. I made mine from gutter guard zipped tied together. I basically made a tube and dropped the rubble inside and then zipped off. I hung it by some fishing line in my sump.

[mess7777]

I don't know about return pumps killing pods, but skimmers definitely will. Your skimmer should be before your fuge and return if you want at least some of the pods leaving your fuge to make it.

I believe that you more diversity is better for our systems...and my fuge has live rock, chaeto, and an ATS. I get all kinds of life growing in there. Amphipods are very easy to catch and throw into the top tank....copepods I haven't figured out yet, maybe I will try one of these pod condos!

[reefervinny]

Pod Condo costed only $2.99 at the lfs. Can't beat that price so give it a shot.

[ReefKeeper64]

Pod Condo costed only $2.99 at the lfs. Can't beat that price so give it a shot.

Reefervinny, I get zero hits on pod condo. Would you mind providing a link for your pod condo or some keywords to search for? A manufacturer name perhaps? Thanks!

[reefervinny]

Reefervinny, I get zero hits on pod condo. Would you mind providing a link for your pod condo or some keywords to search for? A manufacturer name perhaps? Thanks!

Definitely won't get any hits from the search term "pod condo". I saw on another forum that someone called it a "copepod condo" but used a different system. I think this one is very good as long as you don't get one with any metals used for hinges or what not.

Something similar to mine.

http://www.critter-cages.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=18&products_id=1251

[JeffBowlin]

Excellent thread. As a newbie, building my first system, I thought I might be broken, being so interested in the refugium as opposed to the DT. I really think, in my relative ignorance and inexperience, that a large and thriving refugium with maximized micor-fauna production would be the "secret" to a really healthy coral environment. Here is a pic of my new sump/refugium; 150g DT on the way.
http://i878.photobucket.com/albums/ab341/ChuckNoland/Delivered1.jpg
The refugium area is approximately 25gal in water volume, and I'm planning a five inch sand bed. Need to decide on grain size(s). I had not panned on rubble, but am re-considering now. I plan on as dense of a stand of various macro algae as I can feed, focusing on reds. I was also intending a 24 hour light period, but am re-thinking that now too. Skimmer suction is pre-refugium, which although it looks odd, I'm actually glad I'm doing now, based on what Ive read here.

I will be following closely! Open to any and all insight and direction, eager for it actually.

THANKS!

(The pod condo is an awesome idea! Shelter from flow where flow control is limited.)

[SeedlessOne]

No need to buy a prefabbed pod condo. Check this out.

http://www.thereeftank.com/forums/f76/diy-pod-condos-92373.html

[reefervinny]

To be honest I saw that "pod condo" prior to making mine. I actually have some gutter guard in my garage but I still chose to spend $2.99 on mine for 2 simple reasons. One being their is a lid that I can open and directly feed and pour more dr g's pods in and the second is because it has a handle I can lift it out and drop right in my DT. It also somewhat controls my pods to staying in the condo and not getting caught in a current and floating away to be eaten by my CBS.

[SeedlessOne]

Hey hopefully my post didn't come off as condescending as that was not the intention.

I ended up using fishing line to have something to grab onto to lift out of the fuge.

[reefervinny]

Not at all. I was just explaining my reasoning of why i chose to buy and modify then to just make one.

[hypnoj]

following :)

[rlpardue]

I'm glad to see this thread took off, and I'm very pleased to read all of your great ideas.

Moort, you take the cake with your multi-fuge experiments!:hb2:

I think the consensus so far is that diversity of habitats is one key to maximizing microfauna proliferation; Moort gave us some great examples of the different life he sees in different "zones". I'm now going to re-consider including an above-tank refugium in my tank-build (thanks to the nice guy who posted the link to the reef-builders article on propellers and pods. It always sounded fishy to me when people told me that a return pump wouldn't hurt a pod lol. I guess if it only kills 30% then that is fine though.

I took a magnifying glass to my fuge last night and discovered something interesting: pelagic (free-swimming) pods of some kind! Normally I've only seen the ones that stay on surfaces like glass and rocks. I know that planktivores such as anthias would LOVE to have a steady stream of pods who live in the water column. I also noticed I have a bunch of mysids that live in my overflow box. I've had these mysids for some time and if I ever leave some live rock in a bucket for several hours they will be swimming around near the top (maybe for oxygen?).

I think for the new fuge I'll use a 20g long or maybe a 30g long to have multiple zones so that I can maximize the number of habitats. I read something by Ron Shimek that said the worms living in DSBs have larvae that corals love to eat. So I think I'll have a DSB zone, a macroalgae-stuffed zone that is lit on a 12-hour reverse photoperiod, a cryptic (non-lighted) zone stuffed with live rock rubble, and a final zone with my mangroves (because I just like mangroves).

I'd given up on this thread and was glad to find some cool information when I checked it a couple months later :)

If anyone has any pod- or microfauna- experiences to share, please do so!

EDIT/ADD: Also, btw, thanks for the cool idea of the pod-condo. I imagine there could be a number of variations on that idea that could be put to great use! I think it would be especially helpful for the majority of reefers who don't want a crazy, heavy, dangerous above-tank refugium lol. Especially if a mysid population were active in the refugium - there is no way I'd believe a mysid would make it through a return pump in once piece!

[Thepopo]

I maximized my pod population by keeping iodide levels a bit higher than NSW .08 instead of .06. The higher levels encourages them to shed and grow faster. Also cover your pumps so that the babies don't get demolished in the turbulence . I keep 2 mandarins in 30 gallons along with a Percula for over a year. Mandarins are ridiculously fat, more like torpedoes really lol. I feed my pods spirulina as well.

[tonytboss]

People are always talking about using those plastic dish scrubbers as pod hotels ... Any body try using a bunch of these in a fuge ?

[SeedlessOne]

People are always talking about using those plastic dish scrubbers as pod hotels ... Any body try using a bunch of these in a fuge ?

Used them a media in as wet dry drip filter back in my freshwater days. Ended up a nitrate factory.

[mandarin_goby]

The pod condo looks like a Critter Keeper...you can find them at Petsmart, Petco...they're made to house hermit crabs and crickets, and uh, pods :)

[SantaMonica]

To what extent does plant life contribute to pod production within a refugium? I have heard that dosing phytoplankton to a refugium is one way to greatly improve the production of food organisms.

I'd say that pods and plants are proportional. And phyto is a pretty standard food to give to copepods cultures.

Given the fact that whenever I prune balls of chaeto, there are a TON of little copepods and amphipods which fall out, I imagine that they are either feeding directly on such macros, or feeding on something else that feeds on macros. Is there any data for this?

Well they certainly do eat the macro; there are careers devoted to this :) Other stuff too probably, but certainly the macro.

[rlpardue]

I accidentally deposited a coral-eating Galveston blenny into my refugium...I think doing so will not help my microfauna. The little bugger will eat anything.

[rlpardue]

I'll be setting up my multi-stage refugium over the next few days. I'll post some pics once I get it running. Anyone have something like what I'm going for?

[JeffBowlin]

If one were to put rubble on top of a sand bed, would it affect the function of the sand bed?

My guess is that the rubble would prevent or hinder the "flow" of water through the bed caused by pressure and flow over its surface, yet rooting macro algaes may do the same...

[SantaMonica]

I don't think so; it is too porous.

[herring_fish]

Just chiming in with some slightly relevant input and a question. I have a 6 inch diameter by 6 foot tall clear plastic tube in the garage. It is like the plankton reactors that you see for sale but much bigger. It has a strong pump to push air to the bottom of the tube and a heater. I feed it phyto paste one or more times a day. This tube gets 2 gallons of water pumped up and over the brim from the display tank per day via peristaltic pump but it is evenly stretched out throughout the day and night with a timer. Gravity takes the affluent back to the tank.

My primary thrust is to grow rotifers but from time to time the population has more pods than rots, depending on several factors that I can control. When I get sloppy, I get more pods. Anyway, the rots and/or the pods make the 50 foot trek back to the tank with no problem so I get a constant supply. This system works great so far and I get millions of critters from it.

I understand rots do best on phyto but pods can live on almost anything, powders, plant matter, yeast, etc. so they can be cheaper to grow in mass. I am working on some hardware at a snail's pace but once I have it done, I hope to go to 6 or more of these tubes tucked along the wall, out of the way of the cars. At that point I will dedicate a tube to pods only and in another, I will try to raise mysis but I here that they are much harder to grow in an environment like this.

I have been told that the population of pods will grow slowly until it reaches a critical mass and then it will explode. They should do fine with the oxygen and higher nutrient low that comes from waist so that is a good thing.

Unfortunately, my sump is now before the tubes for mechanical reasons.

Does anyone have any advice or critique of the system that might help me out? I want to avoid problems that might come up.

[Lavoisier]

Herring Fish, can you post a pic or two. I think I can visualize your system but a pic would help. Are you replenishing the rots or pods occasionally?

[herring_fish]

Sorry for the belated update.
http://asaherring.com/Reef/Tower/CritterTowersFlow6.jpg
http://asaherring.com/reef/hardware/RotiferDensity.jpg
http://asaherring.com/reef/tower/PlanktonTube.jpg

As I said, I am waiting until I finish some hardware, like program controlled 110V AC outlets and other things. This means that my thread is on hold for a while so I am not fishing for viewers. I also don't want to hijack this thread but I thought that my description would fill in some information for some of you, just like saying, "This is what happened in my commercial venture." So ...if you have comments please offer them up. They would be helpful to me but if you have a question that doesn't relate back to your fuges than go over here:
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1970938&page=4
and I will be happy to answer off line.

I hope these picture spark some ideas for your refugiums.

P.S. Lavoisier It runs by itself except for the feeding that will be automated. It doesn't crash and I have run it for 4 months at a time but I do run experiments with other parts of the system, which means that I have to take the tower off line. When I do, I have to get a new batch. ...but no, I don't replenish it. To some degree, I can turn the population it up or down or encourage pods or rots when I want.

[patchesj]

I think the comment on replenishment brings up an interesting point. If we are essentially attempting to maintain a large "herd" population that self sustains, frequent introduction of new genetic variations would be important. Without the addition of outside influence we will be trimming down the natural genetic differences in the population and relying only on mutation instead of natural selection. This could increase the risk of disease or environmental issue causing a "crash".

[herring_fish]

I agree. My local reef club has periodic gatherings and we exchange tank water and or rock. Multiple tanks may not be as diverse as you would like because they are all subjected to many of the same influences that you alluded to. Of course, adding corals, from various parts of the world, is one of the best ways to get large amounts of diversity, both bacteria and larger critters.

As for my farm, I plan to draw down the population and buy new batches of stock periodically, for that very reason. Still, the populations that you could buy tend to be fairly narrow in the genetic area. Rotifers do come in a few different sizes commercially (L, S, SS) and I hope to have different cultures running at the same time. I would try to keep them fairly pure if possible.

[rlpardue]

I was keeping reefs in college around 2003-2006 and took a break from the hobby during graduate school. During the first phase of my reefkeeping, everybody was concerned with keeping live rock shipments alive, curing times were shorter and people did water changes when cycling their tank with fresh live rock. (In order to minimize die-off from ammonia levels and keep the rock "alive" with more than just ammonia-consuming bacteria).

Now people prefer dead rock and bottled bacteria, which I know has its place, but man is it fun to have some healthy fresh LR that hasn't had massive die-off while curing and/or cycling. I'm kind of excited about buying some LR from Tampa Bay Saltwater once my tank is cycled. Apparently they actually ship the rock submerged in water. If you want bio-diversity, that's really an easy way to get it. Is shipping more expensive? Sure, but it's a premium product.

I'm going to get some of their rock and sand, put it in an above tank refugium, and see what kind of stuff starts to grow. Hopefully I'll buy another batch of 10 lbs rock and 20 lbs sand each year and re-charge my fuges. Why? Because it's fun to see what life forms will start to grow and thrive in my tank. I like growing more than just coral. Fresh LR is fun. Will I get ticked off when I see some random crab eat something he shouldn't? Sure. Is it worth it? You'll have to ask me then lol.

[Bugcrusher]

Pod condo instructions at this link:

http://www.thereeftank.com/forums/f76/diy-pod-condos-92373.html?highlight=pod+condo

[reefervinny]

Or like this. I find this working out for me very well.

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll309/dynastyfloors/90%20Gallon%20Reef/C8D7328F-EA4D-4F93-92FC-E17EC9D0FB65-4973-000005BAC937680E_zpsd7ddc130.jpg

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll309/dynastyfloors/90%20Gallon%20Reef/5A8558C0-FB62-44EF-9F80-43893939FCFE-4973-000005BABC0F83D7_zps08e1c281.jpg

[dougdstecklein]

I have a couple questions about pods.
What are the benefits of having Copepods and/or amphipods?
There are so many copepods in my tank that it looks like a snow globe.
I only have 2 clownfish, a sailfin blenny, and hippo tang. Will my fish even eat them?
I have been considering attaching a filter sock with chemipure to my sump drain. Will this destroy the pod population? My only mechanical filtration is a protein skimmer. Not sure whether I should add the sock filter or not.

[MARINECRITTERS]

I have a couple questions about pods.
What are the benefits of having Copepods and/or amphipods?
There are so many copepods in my tank that it looks like a snow globe.
I only have 2 clownfish, a sailfin blenny, and hippo tang. Will my fish even eat them?
I have been considering attaching a filter sock with chemipure to my sump drain. Will this destroy the pod population? My only mechanical filtration is a protein skimmer. Not sure whether I should add the sock filter or not.

Pos are highly beneficial animals, they serve as a natural food source to all sorts of animals, fish and inverts. The are also great algae grazers, when their population is high it will allow your tank to thrive like never before.
Your fish will eat amphipods and larger plankton, copepods are a bit too small for the fish you listed, although your clownfish may have an occasional snack, not nearly enough to decimate the population though. Adding a filter sock probably won't destroy the population, you may notice fewer levels but it won't wipe them out.
For constant health of these animals, refugiums are a good addition.

[erics3000]

Tagging Along

[SantaMonica]

If there are really that many pods, then the larger ones are being eaten by the fish.

[dougdstecklein]

I overlooked the fact that my corals would eat these. Maybe that's why my Xenias are pumping like crazy.
I will probably forgoe the filter sock for now so I don't filter out too many pods. I like the idea of having a more natural ecosystem in my tank.
I do have a refugium by the way. Lots of the pods are just overflowing into the DT.
If anyone is looking to purchase pods, I purchased a $15 pouch at my LFS of copepods. I think the brand was Algen? At first I didn't think it had much in it. I couldn't see anything, so I ordered 2000 pods from reefs2go.com for $40+$15 shipping. I then noticed a lot of little white specs on the glass in my refugium. Later when I added the 2000 extra pods, my fuge and tank were teaming with pods. Anyone else have a certain brand or company you like to get your pods from?

[erics3000]

Do brittle star fish eat pods? I have a couple in my fuge because they were getting huge and I wanted to add little fish to my display and shrimp were always missing. So I put them in my sump to eat and uneaten flake food that makes it there.

[rlpardue]

Hi Doug, I believe Xenia feed on very very small things; probably smaller than pods. I could be wrong though. I *believe* they pump to generate more flow and oxygen amongst all their arms. Thanks for the tip on buying pod cultures.

Hi Eric, I think brittle starfish will eat anything they can catch or find that makes it to their arms, but I don't imagine them hunting pods. They do eat little fish though - it took me awhile to figure out where my small gobies were going. Glad you banished the stars to the sump when they got huge.

Anyone else have any ideas on how to maximize microfauna populations in refugiums? I ordered some super-fine sand/silt/mud from West Mariculture; it's the "leftover" stuff after he sorts aragonite sand by grain size, so I have particles that are all less than 200 microns! I'm going to try a remote deep sand bed a la Ron Shimek (I'll call this my "RDSBALRS" just to confuse everyone!) and use the silt. Before I set it up I want to source my "seeding" material. I think I'm going to go with Tampa Bay Saltwater live sand & rock (just 10 lbs of each), then Indo-Pacific Sea Farms for a worm package, and maybe GARF to boot. Hopefully I'll have a thriving population of sandbed creatures; not just pods but worms of all kinds, filter feeders, etc.

[dougdstecklein]

If you buy pods from reefs2go.com, that is all I recommend buying. I decided to order fish too and one was DOA and another died shortly after. The clownfish were super duper tiny, maybe 3/4". I quickly found out their 14 day guarantee is only for store credit. So I paid $50 + $40 shipping and all I have to show for it is one 3/4 inch ocellaris clownfish and some store credit. Their pods are nice though.

[SantaMonica]

I like the 2000 pods from R2G... amazingly every pod was alive every time.

[behlke]

Tagging along

[jmstukey]

Great thread. My husband and I are also wanting to use our refugium to cultivate live foods (especially pods for a mandarin we would like to get). Does the use of biopellets affect copepods? If so, how?

[SantaMonica]

If you bring nutrients too low, which pellets can do, the periphyton on the rocks might thin out enough to reduce pods, but this is just a guess.

[codyreed29]

I HAve alot of input I'll talk about sand beds rdsb and mud. I use a 2.5gallon tank for my fuge which is located in a low flow sump and the water level is about a inch above the top of it. I have about 15 lbs of live rock as well down there. I used Real live mud and sand from the ocean. Directly from the clear waters of south padre island The most southern tip of texas which is only a few hundred miles from coral reefs. I put about 2-3 inches of mud about 5 lbs from a bay with alot of natural plants and wildlife. I then covered the mud with about 2-3 of sand on one side and about 1/2 inch above the mud for some natural plants. Then i added some lr rubble and cheato. The flow is really low about 300 or so. I have some hermiasts live down there that live in he 2.5 they won't even et out of it lol. They eat food that lands on the sandbed and keep it clean, As far as pods i guess I'm giving the the best I can without sacrificing water quailty Skimmer which probably sucks abunch up. Oh and i light the sump with a 65ook 42watt florescnet.

[herring_fish]

SantaMonica"
Dude, "Periphyton"? Really? Where did you get that one?

I had to Wiki that one and I still didn't understand it all. Cool. I guess I am falling behind the times. What you said sound right but can you expand on this stuff just a little? How do you encourage its growth and health etc.

I am doing research on how to grow pods in that tower system of mine and want to have a good population in the main tank so any input would be helpful.

Thanks

[rlpardue]

I HAve alot of input I'll talk about sand beds rdsb and mud. I use a 2.5gallon tank for my fuge which is located in a low flow sump and the water level is about a inch above the top of it. I have about 15 lbs of live rock as well down there. I used Real live mud and sand from the ocean. Directly from the clear waters of south padre island The most southern tip of texas which is only a few hundred miles from coral reefs. I put about 2-3 inches of mud about 5 lbs from a bay with alot of natural plants and wildlife. I then covered the mud with about 2-3 of sand on one side and about 1/2 inch above the mud for some natural plants. Then i added some lr rubble and cheato. The flow is really low about 300 or so. I have some hermiasts live down there that live in he 2.5 they won't even et out of it lol. They eat food that lands on the sandbed and keep it clean, As far as pods i guess I'm giving the the best I can without sacrificing water quailty Skimmer which probably sucks abunch up. Oh and i light the sump with a 65ook 42watt florescnet.

Woah, you used sand from South Padre? The 'ole lady and I are headed there in a couple of weeks. Not sure if the water is clear but it's a lot better than Galveston! I've had negative experiences with Texan coastal critters in my tanks - peppermint shrimp and a blenny that both ate my expensive Acans lol.

[SantaMonica]

Periphyton is all life that grows on the rocks; mostly photosynthetic. It's why rocks don't stay white, and is primarily what makes up the "established" part of an established tank (12 month, etc). Periphyton does a lot of filtering and pod production if you let it be. Any change of flow or lighting will disrupt the food supply and kill off a lot of it.

[herring_fish]

Thanks,

Would periphyton compete with calcareous algae? This makes me think back several years when I added live silica based sand, straight from a trip to the beach.

I got a bad out brake of diatoms so I mistakenly used antibiotics upon the advice of the local store vender. Afterwords, I got a resurgence of calcareous algae like I had never seen before nor sense in any tank. It was growing so fast that I had to brake up the mono color land scape by turning over some of the rocks that were white underneath.

I am certainly not suggesting that you kill your entire protective bacterial population to get some pretty purple rock but it does beg the original question because my rock does not grow any calcareous algae or any other type. I do get some brownish stuff that comes and goes, in this nitrate limited, high bacteria environment.

NOTE: This could have been caused by many other factors and probably could not be duplicated.

That being said, does this spark any thoughts?

[dougdstecklein]

I can't answer that question, but if that's really the case, then it seems like you wouldn't want coralline algae taking up valuable periphyton real estate.

I have a question about some new life I am seeing in my refugium. I introduced 2000 pods into my tank a couple weeks ago and i am wondering if what i am seeing are offspring. It's hard to describe what everything looks like so I took a picture. Maybe you guys can help me indentify the new inhabitants. There are 3 new life forms on the glass in the picture that look different than the copepods and amphipods I received a few weeks ago.
The first one to appear was the white spiral with a small fan.
The 2nd was the very tiny thing that looks like an ?amoeba?
The 3rd showed up today and looks like a bug.(this is the one that I'm thinking may be baby amphipods.

[SantaMonica]

Periphyton includes coralline.

[dougdstecklein]

Today I answered my own question about filter socks decreasing your pod population.
I was running my tank without a filter sock for a few weeks but decided to reinstall it on the overflow drain.
I recieved some chemipure today and went to put it in the filter sock. The inside of the sock reminded me of the bag of pods i purchased from reefs2go. It was crawling with amphipods, maybe around 100 or so. I have only had the sock installed for 1 week. I had no idea this many pods were being sucked into the DT and then overflowed back into the sump.
I am leaving the filter sock installed and plan on dumping the pods every few weeks back into my refugium. This might actually save some of the pods from the protein skimmer.:spin1:

[erics3000]

When I use socks there is always pods and little starfish in them. I am trying to just use my socks when I blow of my rocks in display.I do hate the fact though that a lot of detritus settles in the fuge which is harder to clean than my sump due to all the rock I have to move. I have been thinking lately to raise my rock off bottom of fuge and blast it with power head every now and than. When i do a water change than I would make something to siphon from the bottom of fuge to get left over waste out. This way I don't move the rock around a lot and don't need to run socks except when I blow the rocks off or want to polish the water. My goal is to greatly reduce socks useage and start to dose phyto to get pods backup and strong.


QUESTION??
How do pods do with high nitrates does that affect them?

[rlpardue]

Erics, I will say that pods thrive on detritus if there aren't predators to cut them back. I moved all my livestock and half of my live rock from my 75g to my new 150g a couple weeks ago, and last night I looked at the glass in the 75g and saw an awful lot of pods on the glass.

Since I'd been neglecting water changes on the 75g in the weeks before the transition to the new tank, the nitrate levels were up to 50ppm. I think that pods (or at least certain kinds of them) don't mind the nitrates as much as your other tank inhabitants will.

I like the idea of keeping live rock off the bottom of the fuge. I used eggcrate and PVC "spacers" to lift rock above a sand bed in my seahorse refugium. That way the worms and small sand-sifters could stir the sand bed and help process detritus more easily. I found an old acrylic tank for $60 that I'm going to use as a live-rock/crypto fuge for the 150. Plan is to elevate the rock like you're suggesting, but put a Koralia 4 or something underneath it all to keep detritus from settling on the bare bottom. (I'm going to have a second fuge with a DSB)

[borderreef]

Can we get more pics from people with successful remote planted refugiums? I have a remote that is currently empty except for an 8" coarse sand bed. I just purchased red mangrove, but want to add something that will fill in the bottom under the waterline.
I think you find more pods and critters living in the macro rather than free swimming for a number of reasons. Safety, micro algae growing on the macro as a food source, and breeding areas. I admit I don't have the scientific data to back this up, but think about a trip to a tidal pool at the ocean. You don't see much swimming around, but when you lift and shake out a piece of seaweed, tons of critters fall out and start swimming for shelter.

[dougdstecklein]

Still looking for some help identifying these 3 different refugium inhabitants.
1) white spiral with a small fan.
2) very tiny thing that looks like an ?amoeba?
3) thing that looks like a bug with 10 legs.(this is the one that I'm thinking may be baby amphipods.)


http://i1282.photobucket.com/albums/a523/dougdstecklein/null_zpsc925e375.jpg

[SpartaReef]

Number three is an amphipod of some sort. Number one is a harmless filter feeder... Name I don't recall... There is a thread I read somewhere that identifies all of these... Can you point out number two?

[SpartaReef]

I see a flatworm above the red macro algae and next to number one...

[dougdstecklein]

There is one of the filter feeders directly in the center of the picture. Number 2 is up and just to the left of this filter feeder. It is directly below a salt stain. It is the shape of a pacman ghost lying on its side. There is also one dead center of the red macro algae.
http://i1282.photobucket.com/albums/a523/dougdstecklein/null_zps039f4120.jpg

[SpartaReef]

Yeah I see them... Those are flatworms.... They can be bad or just an annoyance. I had a few as well and haven't seen them for a couple of weeks...

[dougdstecklein]

Thanks for the identification help! Should I start trying to rid the tank of the flatworms? I don't really know how serious of a problem they are.

[SpartaReef]

Read up on them... I haven't had any issues and plan on stocking flatworm predators...

[rlpardue]

Hi Doug,
There are lots of different kinds of flatworms; since this is in your refugium I don't think it's bothering anything, and is helpful in that it at least is eating stuff (none of which is on "display").

Wrasses eat flatworms. "Yellow coris" and any of the other Halichoeres wrasses will enjoy them. I think they're cool to let live in the fuge, but if they start covering corals in the DT or something then I'd start thinking about controlling them. There are many kinds of harmless flatworms and only a couple of harmful ones; if they only live on your Acropora corals (and not on glass, etc) then you know you have a harmful one lol.

So yesterday afternoon I prepped an old acrylic tank that I'm going to be using for my uber-fuge. It's 36"x15"x20" (~45gal) and you can see it on the right in the picture below. I drilled two 1.5" bulkhead holes in the left side so water can drain back into the sump at a slow speed. I'm going to plumb a 3/4" vinyl hose from my main return pump (downstream from skimmer) into the "overflow" section of the refugium. (This is an annoying part of my acrylic fuge - I would rather have the extra space than the overflow section, but it's built-in so I have to live with it).

I'm definitely going to be adding a DSB in the fuge, and I'm going to have a live rock section too. I'm not sure whether I'm going to section it off so that the sand is on the left (with med-low flow) and the rock is on the right (with high flow), or whether I'll just make a PVC/eggcrate platform for the live rock to rest on above the level of the sand, in order to keep detritus from settling under and around the rocks. There is a section of my sump (to the left in the pic) where I'll have mangroves and chaeto growing. The plan is to keep the main refugium unlit.

[Hatonhed]

It's too bad that this thread stopped when it did. Interesting read.

[JonezNReef]

I agree with Hatonhed! I am considering plumbing in a above tank fuge and was hoping there was a solid way or secret to get a big pod population. Maybe someone out there has some more up to date info on all this.

[Dans85]

I would love to hear some more input from people who have had success. I would love to have a fuge filled with pods.

[mr9iron]

I am tagging along for fun as well. However, I think the key to success is some macro/micro algae and some live rock. The pod condo is a really cool idea.

[ecotanker]

According to Paul B, mulm is a good thing to help grow pods.

[JonezNReef]

I would rather have less mulm (detritus) in my tank even if it does help with growing pods. But that is interesting that it would help increase the pod population and Paul B is full of good advice and some old school knowledge.

[ecotanker]

In the Display tank I would agree, but in the sump I would leave the detrius alone.

[Alexraptor]

I can say from personal experience that Mulm definitely promotes crazy pod/critter production.
Mulm in the display combined with a macro like Caulerpa has kind of been the cornerstone of my nano Mandarin setups, which are fuge-less.
Even my 15 gallon SPS reef has a lot of mulm in the display and supports a fully grown male Mandarin, though it does have a chaeto based refugium.

[Reef Frog]

I've often wondered if creating some large cavities inside pieces of live rock that fish & crabs could not enter, but would have small openings for pod entry/exit, would aid pod breeding inside the display tank. It could even be fitted possibly with some tubing to provide water flow & to flush it out occasionally and even inject some food with a turkey baster. Any potential as a good pod breeding condo or a dumb idea?

[zeemofree]

I have this experimental test tank running with a two stage sand filter that has a gravity over flow back into the tank, I believe this setup once established will spit out plenty of micro fauna Into the display, I do not us a filter sock as I want to get as many filter feeders as I can established to remove what the sock removes, and the rest will feed my sand filters, then the broke down nutrients are exported via plankton safe skimmer. I believe filter socks take away the food micro fauna needs and with and established population of live filter socks so to speak will then produce more larvae and what have you for tank inhabitants to consume.

[darrick001]

I have had an experimental 70 gal tank set up for about 2 months. There are no fish in this tank but it is gravity feed from my 210. The set up has a 7 inch dsb. It is split down the center length wise. Think race track and you will have the idea. One half of the tank has ruble from 1-5 inch with various types of algae. The other side is coral frags birds nest, acro, Zoas, chalice, mushrooms, blasto sponges, fan worms and rock anemones. 1 600 gph pump pushes water in the same direction as the gravity feed. Tho causes the water to follow the race track. A phosban 150 with 2 Tbsp of Bp. The Bp are to increase the free bacteria available as a food source. The exit also flows in the same direction. It has 1 t247 led light on the coral side running at 20% on the blue spectrum 7 hrs and 10% full spectrum 4 hrs, and a PC on the other 10 hrs. In 2 months it is loaded with life 1000s of mysids, amphipods', copepods', worms, starfish. The water circulates around the top fairly quickly but the bottom 1-2 inches moves much slower. The bottom 2 inches contains 90-95% of the life. The coral are multiplying faster than I have ever seen in my 12 years of reefing. The lighting is turned way down and to my surprise the colors are better than ever. I have ran a refugia on the 210 for 8 years and there is way more life in this setup than the 8 year old setup. Both setups are connected to the 210. The starting culture was rock and algae taken from the 8 year old setup. Additives bacteria 1 tbsp every 2 weeks, reef bugs 2x per week 1/16tsp, vodka .5ml 1x per week. These are added to the 210 display. These are all to increase the free bacteria count. If I turn the pumps off you can see plankton swimming to feed on the reef bugs. The display has 1 very fat mandarin and a leopard wrasse along with 2 clowns flame angel, gobies', tangs, shrimp, starfish, yellow tail damsel. The older system is also a 70 gal it has 2 inches of mud same algae, rock, same PC light, no led no direct Bp feed. Gravity feed in one side out the other.

[JonezNReef]

Do you have any pictures of your setup darrick? Sounds pretty sweet. I have been thinking about running multiple tanks on 1 system so I can boost my overall diversity of life to see if it will make a difference. Glad some people are really testing out some new ideas

[darrick001]

I will try to take some tomorrow.

[darrick001]

I can't get my photos to load for some reason. I will post as soon as I figure out what the problem is.

[JonezNReef]

If your using a phone try using tapatalk app to load pics and videos... It's the only way I can get any to load on this sight. If not then try making the images smaller or put them on something like photobucket and post a link

[darrick001]

Thanks for the help.

[darrick001]

I will post the rest after I reduce the file size

[darrick001]

From the end.

[darrick001]

The old 70 gal mud setup was removed last weekend to make room for a new build. I'm planning on replacing my current setup with a 96x48x24 racetrack setup. No sump everything will be built into the race track. Filtration will be in a second chamber built onto one end then the refugia on the other end. It should use about 1/2 the energy of my current setup if things go well.

[JonezNReef]

Sounds like an interesting plan. You will have to do a build thread for that so we can see how it progresses over time. What you have going on in the pictures looks good too

[darrick001]

I was surprised how well the water circulates with only the one small pump. When the tank was empty I put lexan down the center and the flow was almost to much. You can control the amount of flow on each side by adjusting the position of the center. So with one pump you can have sps on one side and mushrooms on the other. For it to work the center must break the surface of the water.

[reeffan07]

@darrick001 what is the macro algae in the pic you posted? I really like the way it looks,does it spread quickly though?

[darrick001]

It is caulerpa prolifera. If your nutrients are high it can. The light spectrum makes a big difference. I put it under 10k and it grew faster than in the tank in the pictures. It seems to grow very slow in that tank and My tang , angel and blenny seem to like it.

[vikinglord13]

I have a few questions:

1) When I perform water changes I always siphon the sand bed in my Display Tank. Is this harmful to any worms or pod populations? My understanding is it is good to siphon the bed to prevent hazardous gases from building up. Is it just better to inject it with water with a turkey baster every now and then?

2) Since mulm/detritus tends to promote pod populations, is it better to just go without a filter? I currently have a filter pad before my refugium so I'm curious if that's preventing any pop colony growth.

3) Does anybody know of specific species which eat specific foods (like algae vs. detritus). I read somewhere that pods from R2G are all detrivores, other pods eat phytoplankton, and others eat smaller pods, and others eat algae. Anybody have a good source for this?

4) Forgive my noob status. I'm not understanding how a gravity fed refugium will help prevent pods from being killed by the propeller in the pump. I understand the water gets into the fuge by gravity, but it has to get back into the tank so doesn't this require a pump?

Thanks everyone! I find this thread to be quite interesting. I'm a fan of a natural filtration method as well as a balanced ecosystem so this helps my planning quite a bit.

[karimwassef]

I have a large pod population and I use a surge that holds between 20 gallons and 100 gallons of water at different times.

In terms of what works -

1. No mechanical filtration. filter socks and sponges kill the fauna unless the water is allowed to flow in both directions (which noone practically does).

2. The pumps push water up into the overhead tank, this is a source of food and fresh water, but this is not where the pods are. The pod population lives up in the overhead tank and reproduces there creating the mass of life. When the water flows down into the DT, it doesn't go through a pump, so the pods stay alive.

[vikinglord13]

What do you mean water flow in both directions? Flow the reverse way through the sock so the fauna can escape?

[karimwassef]

It's a general statement about flow and mechanical filtration, not specific to this approach

[mr9iron]

I love this thread.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[darrick001]

This is one of reasons I started working on a new design. IMO the filter sock has to big of trade off. Every time I cleaned them out they were full of pods. I was spending time and money to run a separate tank to increase their population just to filter them back out. I removed the socks and then had to deal with the extra nitrate's. Added the sulfur reactor and now there was to much co2 causing a cyno out break. Added an air exchange chamber after the reactor and now everything seems stable. Everything we do causes a reaction.

[karimwassef]

I just took out mechanical filtration and added ATS for nutrient export.

[rt67ghy]

I had a thought that a skimmer skims out a lot of the nauplius (baby pods) which are free-swimming so, as an experiment, I took my skimmer off-line a few months ago. Now I'm waiting to see if I have a pod explosion.

[darrick001]

That is a valid point. I have struggled with that idea for a while. One benefit our skimmers' provide that is often overlooked is gas exchange. If I remove it how much will it affect my o2and co2 levels. Anyone with a do2 sensor want to give it a try?

[karimwassef]

I turn my skimmer off at night to keep more plankton alive

[vikinglord13]

What one could do is have the pod-producing refugium after the pump. IE: have it gravity fed to the DT. If one wanted to have the mechanical filtration it can be after the pump and before the refugium; therefore, the refugium is last in the sump flow.

[karimwassef]

True. The trick is how to drive this without having a pressurized container or a siphon that pulls in air into the DT. I use actuated valves to do this.

[SeattleReefer]

What one could do is have the pod-producing refugium after the pump. IE: have it gravity fed to the DT.

I tried that- display refugium sitting above the DT draining straight to DT.

Too many bubbles in the DT.

[vikinglord13]

Interesting. Was your refugium outlet above your DT water line or beneath it?

[SeattleReefer]

Interesting. Was your refugium outlet above your DT water line or beneath it?

beneath- my water line is right at the top of the DT. I believe that in either case a drain from above into the DT will introduce bubbles.

What would be perfect would be some electronically controlled valves to provide flow to refugium only at night or when I'm away.

and btw I've been meaning to ask a question in this thread... do you guys have snails in the pod refugium?

[karimwassef]

I use DIY Apex controlled actuated 2" knife valves

[enb141]

I can say from personal experience that Mulm definitely promotes crazy pod/critter production.
Mulm in the display combined with a macro like Caulerpa has kind of been the cornerstone of my nano Mandarin setups, which are fuge-less.
Even my 15 gallon SPS reef has a lot of mulm in the display and supports a fully grown male Mandarin, though it does have a chaeto based refugium.

That's awesome, I don't wanna add Mulm to my display tank because I don't think it's gonna look good, so probably I'm thinking to add it to my refugium, my tank is a 20 gallon and I also have a mandarin, it mostly is eating live gut loaded brine shrimp but I really want to increase the population of pods so at some point him won't need a lof of live brine shrimp as he does right now.

So it seems I'm gonna need to remove the sponges and turn off my skimmer to see of that helps to increase the pod population without rising nitrates and phosphates.

I'm also runinning GAC so without the sponges I think the GAC will be a problem and I don't wanna remove it because I have SPS, LPS, polyps, pulsing xenias, mushrooms so they release lots of chemicals that can compromise the SPS.

[OllieNZ]

That is a valid point. I have struggled with that idea for a while. One benefit our skimmers' provide that is often overlooked is gas exchange. If I remove it how much will it affect my o2and co2 levels. Anyone with a do2 sensor want to give it a try?
I've seen mentioned elsewhere running the skimmer so it doesn't produce skimmate or running it really wet and letting it overflow back into the tank to keep the oxygenation effect without the impact on the microfauna

[E.litvin]

Awesome article, it is interesting to see how many little different techniques there are for what seemed like a basic reef filtration/food production application so to speak. Going to try some of these techniques out for myself.

[Sundog101]

How important do you feel an above tank fuge is? How many pods/fauna make it through the return pump?

[ThRoewer]

... Another cool thing i noticed was mysis. I actually have mysis that live and breed in my sump. I didnt realize they can survive the freezing processes and hatch eggs. ...
Different Mysis!
The Mysis you see swirling around in refugia and in your tank at night are specialized reef species that hitched a ride with live rock or more likely substrates of inverts. These guys usually hang out in rock cavities during the day and go hunting at night.

The frozen Mysis you feed are freshwater species that can't survive in saltwater. They are also way too clumsy to not get eaten right away (I know because I fed those live to my fish back in Germany when I could catch them myself).
Also, Mysis eggs would never survive being frozen or develop into Mysis without the mother to care for them and the larvae - they only release the little ones when they are fully developed mini Mysis.

I just took out mechanical filtration and added ATS for nutrient export.

I usually avoided having a mechanical filter like a sock on my tanks. Though, a gravel sedimentation filter should not affect

I had a thought that a skimmer skims out a lot of the nauplius (baby pods) which are free-swimming so, as an experiment, I took my skimmer off-line a few months ago. Now I'm waiting to see if I have a pod explosion.

I actually found that quite a few species love to live inside a skimmer, especially those species that come from the tidal zone where crashing waves produce pretty much the same conditions you find in a skimmer. Especially certain snails predominantly settle inside skimmers. I found a lot of limpets in my old skimmer when I had to take it down. Ideally the skimmer is just a "sideshow" inside the sump to take some nutrients out and improve gas exchange. Ideally you don't have all water going through it.

That is a valid point. I have struggled with that idea for a while. One benefit our skimmers' provide that is often overlooked is gas exchange. If I remove it how much will it affect my o2and co2 levels. Anyone with a do2 sensor want to give it a try?

I leave my skimmer on all the time.



I actually had my refugium on top of one of my tanks with a hang-on overflow into the tank. Today I moved it down below that tank and upgraded it from 10 to 20 gallon.
I had to take it down because it was ugly looking and way too dangerous up there.
The old refugium was primarily a nutrient export system with lots of chaeto and some other algae. I had some gravel in it - mostly clam shells from clams I fed and coral frags that died off. I also had a few live rock in there, mostly to shield the overflow pipe from the chaeto so it wouldn't be blocked.

For the most I had just one bought inhabitant there: a tiger pistol shrimp. At first I had just parked him there, but he turned out to be beneficial in keeping the detritus fluffy.
Detritus is another thing I think is beneficial. If any form of ground covering is used it should ideally be the coarsest gravel you can find. Better are dead coral skeletons, especially loose and branchy ones like birdsnest. The goal is to create lots of cavities for pods to settle in.

Chaeto is also highly beneficial as it creates a vast labyrinth in which many pods can hide.

It may also help to feed the refugium with pulverized flakes and micro algae. Nori may also worth a try.

Recently I had a pipefish in the fuge for recovery. It may have depleted some of the larger pods, but surely not all.

Here two videos of my old refugium:

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/O8cT0xBQjRk" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/PjrGaL7NzkI" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

BTW, most of my pods I harvested from LFS systems, sumps and dirty corners of invert systems. What you find there has proven to live in a reef tank system and the likelihood is high that they will thrive in your tank as well.
With the pods you can buy from cultures it is always a gamble if they live or die in your system.

[JonezNReef]

Nice ThRoewer! Thats a huge population of pods. I really hope I can achieve a population atleast half that size and I would be happy. Is your new refugium doing as well as your old one. Do you have any pictures or videos of your new one and how you set it up?

[karimwassef]

Interesting - I don't vaccum my sand or gravel or mud or even my bare bottom sump areas.

It looks dirty but I've let it be for years. And my pods are thick.

The idea that detritus is beneficial certainly appeals to me. It closes the loop of a sustainable life cycle and creates a food supply for those pods and worms.

Another interesting note is the concept of "fluffy detritus". I think this is key since caked detritus just forms a silty floor without much water circulation - like bricks. I like worms for this, especially sand worms. They do a remarkable job aerating the detritus filled regions and creating access tunnels for the pods. It's a cooperative.

[ThRoewer]

Interesting - I don't vaccum my sand or gravel or mud or even my bare bottom sump areas.

It looks dirty but I've let it be for years. And my pods are thick.

The idea that detritus is beneficial certainly appeals to me. It closes the loop of a sustainable life cycle and creates a food supply for those pods and worms.

Another interesting note is the concept of "fluffy detritus". I think this is key since caked detritus just forms a silty floor without much water circulation - like bricks. I like worms for this, especially sand worms. They do a remarkable job aerating the detritus filled regions and creating access tunnels for the pods. It's a cooperative.
When detritus solidifies at a certain height it starts forming anaerobic zones. While those can be quite effective in reducing NO3, they can also be quite dangerous if something disturbs them.

My original plan was to have a remote deep sand bed in there as well and I may still do that later as especially a sand bed with coarse gravel is for sure good for Pods.

...Is your new refugium doing as well as your old one. Do you have any pictures or videos of your new one and how you set it up?
I just moved it yesterday, and so far I have just dumped everything from the old into the new. So it's for sure not yet established.
I plan on arranging it next week.
I plan on having one half for Cheatomorpha and the other half for red macro algae.
I also want some Halimeda in there

BTW: buying macro algae is another good way to get a diversity of pods.

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[GXPKY]

I

-Dennis

[NS Mike D]

anyone dose phyto into their tanks? I started for my corals and noticed increase pod activity in my fuge. Now I just add it directly into my fuge so the pods get first crack at it before the corals even it means the skimmer might pull some out

[karimwassef]

Yes. I dose phyto.

It's not just pods though. Phyto is the beginning of the food chain followed by zooplankton, etc...

[vikinglord13]

I've seen successful phyto cultures before, does anybody know if it's possible to grow zooplankton?

I suppose if one grows phyto they can, in turn, feed that to the zooplankton and dose both to the tank?

[Lavoisier]

I dose phyto as well. It is possible to culture, just a question of time and effort. Search for threads here on RC. Also there are excellent books and articles.

[2_zoa]

I tried that- display refugium sitting above the DT draining straight to DT.

Too many bubbles in the DT.

My sump is above my DT. Not directly above but, above on the other side of the wall. My drain has a 45 to aim it into the DT. I then have a short piece of pipe and at the end I keep a small piece of sponge that the water hits right before the DT water. No bubbles. I do have to keep the sponge clean though.

Had I thought about it a little more, I might have setup a herbie drain setup from the above sump. That would run with no bubbles at all. And be silent. Not that mine makes noise.

[ThRoewer]

I would like to create a flow-through phyto culture that continuously produces phytoplankton. I managed - more by accident than by intention - to sustain some very persistent algae blooms in QTs. The last I only got under control by adding rotifers (Brachionus) to have them eat it up. With enough light and a low through flow rate it should be doable to create a self sustaining culture - at least for some time. The incoming water would need to be filtered to prevent rotifers and other phyto predators from entering the culture chamber.
It may even be a way to get rid of phosphates and nitrates...

[zeemofree]

I would like to create a flow-through phyto culture that continuously produces phytoplankton. I managed - more by accident than by intention - to sustain some very persistent algae blooms in QTs. The last I only got under control by adding rotifers (Brachionus) to have them eat it up. With enough light and a low through flow rate it should be doable to create a self sustaining culture - at least for some time. The incoming water would need to be filtered to prevent rotifers and other phyto predators from entering the culture chamber. It may even be a way to get rid of phosphates and nitrates...


That's exactly what I want to create with my 55 gallon, it's going to be have full of rock and half full of sand with a reversed slow flow through it.

[ThRoewer]

My 20 gallon refugium is below the 40B in my 200 gallon system. All water from the 40B goes into the refugium and from there into the sump tank (another 40B).
The refugium itself has no pump that could harm pods or larva that come almost every night from the 40B.
By now there are clouds of pods in the dark corners.
I still have to reorganize it as most things just got dumped in.
Another thing I plan to add is an at least 2" sand bed - as soon as I have figured out how to create a plenum that doesn't get clogged up by fine sand and detritus.

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[RTab619]

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