Help with Alk Problem

[brandonros]

Hi,
I've had my 75gal reef up for about 1.5 years and since the beginning, I've had low Alk issues. As of a couple months ago, my coralline algae began bleaching anywhere the light touched it, but was fine under the shade of rocks, etc. Since that, I've had hair algae way out of control, particularly growing on this bleached dead coralline. So I got strict on checking my levels and found that even after dosing bi-weekly, my Alk is way too low. I checked and found it at 5.5dkh once.

The bad thing is that every other level is just fine. Here's where I'm at on everything now after dosing Alk for the past three days straight...
Ph-7.8
Mg- 1650
Ca- 500
Alk -6.7
Salinity -1.026
Temp -80F

I've tried everything I can think of. In the past two months, I've bought a nice new Protein skimmer, I've spent a couple hundred bucks and upgraded my RO/DI to make sure I was always at exactly 0 TDS on water changes. I've checked my salt mix levels after mixing and they're all fine. I've also pointed a powerhead nearly straight up at the surface. I've tried aerating the water with an air stone to bring up my pH and Alk. But none of this has worked.

One thing I do deal with where I live is that the city water is extremely HARD! My neighbor buys a new dishwasher every year because it kills dishwashers. Could this very hard water cause alk problems, even after filtering?

I also don't know that this is related, but I've been putting off changing my light bulbs and they're probably about 8 months old. I didn't think it could, but could old T5HO lights make this big of an effect on alkalinity? I've read the forums and articles, but they all seem to relate Alk to Ph and Mg but my other levels are always fine without ever dosing. Any ideas of things to try to help?

Thank you!

[Aquarist007]

Two issues here.
Bring up your alk and low ph by using Kent super dkh.

Reduce hair algae by running a gfo material like phosban.

What salt mix are you using

Is that ph level the nocturnal low or the daylight high

[brandonros]

Two issues here.
Bring up your alk and low ph by using Kent super dkh.

Reduce hair algae by running a gfo material like phosban.

What salt mix are you using

Is that ph level the nocturnal low or the daylight high

Thanks for the reply, Capn.
I actually do dose with Kent Super dkh for the alk. Dosing that would and does work if I dose the full 4Tbsp for my 75gal. every other day. It's just that this seems like way too much to have to dose alk. Is there some cause that can be corrected for my low levels rather than dosing?

I haven't tried phosban, but I'll look into that for the hair algae. I was thinking I was having hair algae problems because of the low alk problems. Thanks for the tip there.

For salt, I was using the plain Instant Ocean for the first 10 months of my setup but now for the past 4-6 months, I've been using IO Reef Crystals and that seemed to have made alk worse, but maybe it's coincidence, because when I test the salt mix itself, alk is fine.

Unfortunately, that ph level is the daytime high, checked at the end of the day. The low is usually about 7.0 at around 7:00am before the lights kick on.

Thanks

[disc1]

The low is usually about 7.0 at around 7:00am before the lights kick on.

Unless you also see the rocks fizzing then that's probably a bad measurement. You really aren't going to get pH to go below 7.5 or 7.6 with sand and rock in there. The sand or rock will start to dissolve and that would buffer the pH back to at least the 7.5 to 7.6 level.

How are you measuring that pH?

[brandonros]

Unless you also see the rocks fizzing then that's probably a bad measurement. You really aren't going to get pH to go below 7.5 or 7.6 with sand and rock in there. The sand or rock will start to dissolve and that would buffer the pH back to at least the 7.5 to 7.6 level.

How are you measuring that pH?

I have a pH meter that I bought about 8 years ago. I doubted the measurement too, but then I bought several different calibration solutions and calibrated it. I also have test strips that kind of confirm the reading by color, but before you say it, I know those are very inaccurate. But I guess the meter could still be off.

[nanotank]

The probes themselves go bad over time. I would buy a new probe for your PH meter.

[brandonros]

I'll do that but any ideas on correcting my alk problem without dosing so much so often?
Thanks

[disc1]

Do you have a lot of coral or coralline algae? They might actually be using it up that fast.

To answer other questions from your OP:

No the lights won't have any effect on alkalinity.

The hard water would raise the alkalinity, it happens to people using tap water all the time that the alkalinity shoots through the roof due to hard water. But if you are filtering that through a RODI then it will all be removed and won't affect the tank in any way.

[Aquarist007]

What stock do you have in your tank that could be consuming talk.

I have a portable ph meter that cost me 30 bucks. Use it 25 times a week and its reliable

I try to stay away from using buffers to raise ph
Rather treat it as a gas exchange problem
Things to check or try
Make sure the surface of the tank is not covered and it is really churning with flow
If you have a skimmer which you should have crank it up
If you have a dedicated fish room make sure there is ventilation. If not add a fan
Setup a refugium with macro algae
If you have a canopy leave it up for part of the day.

[bertoni]

2 tbps per day is a large dose of the Kent product, from what I can tell from the product description. For the alkalinity to drop, it must be converted into calcium carbonate, basically. A large clam might do that, in addition to the other suspects already mentioned. You might check inside pumps or on the heater for signs of precipitation (a whitish film), too.

I'd probably start measuring and dosing alkalinity at the same time each day, to get a trend line.

[brandonros]

I did have a lot of coralline algae, but now probably 75% is bleached white.

For stock, I have 5 small fish, peppermint shrimp, one large hermit, a carpet anemone, and a pulsing xenia. Something else weird, is that the anemone had been attached to the topmost rock directly under the lights for the past 6 months I've owned him, but just last week for the first time ever, he moved down to a lower spot near the bottom of the tank.

I do have a skimmer that I just upgraded that is cranked up and filling up the cup often.

Something else I recently changed to try to correct this alk problem, was that I was previously using a large canister filter. I completely got rid of that because I heard they're not good and can throw off my chemistry. So now, I'm really only running a skimmer for filtration. I don't have a refugium or sump yet, because I also read that they're not really necessary with biological and a good skimmer.

Could a refugium really help my alk levels?

As far as water, I point a powerhead up to churn the surface and I also have removed my tank glass covers, but that didn't change my levels.

For my dosing, the Kent Pro Buffer Dkh says to dose 2 Tbsp per 40 gallons so I've been doing 4 for my 75gal.

Here's a picture of my current bad condition with algae everywhere. It seems to stay off of the dead coralline, but I swear, I clean it completely off with a toothbrush and in two days, I have this. I bought some phosban yesterday and we'll see if that works, but my phosphates have tested 0. So I was thinking the algae is related to the low Alk and trying to solve that problem instead of treating it every day with dosing.
I'm desperate for help here.:sad2:
Thanks
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h28/brandonros/IMG_20130121_115803.jpg
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h28/brandonros/IMG_20130121_115748.jpg

[csauer52]

Based on that tank shot, it looks to me like you have a nutrient problem. High phosphates will tend to inhibit corralline algae growth as well as SPS. Have you checked your nitrates/phosphates with reliable test kits?

[Aquarist007]

I will repeat my previous post

Two issues here.
Bring up your alk and low ph by using Kent super dkh.

Reduce hair algae by running a gfo material like phosban.

O test readings for nitrates and phosphates simply means that they are being consumed immediately by the algae as they are introduced. If you have visible algae like that then you have nitrates and phosphates.

Do you know the history of the live rock.If the hair algae is growing back as fast as you stated then those rocks could be loaded with phosphates. I am very suspectful with the algae only growing on the rock.
Good test for that---buy a piece of base rock that is completely bare of anything like Key Largo rock. Place it in the tank. If the algae doesnt grow on it like the other rock then you have phosphates that are leaching out of the rock.

[csauer52]

I will repeat my previous post

Bring up your alk and low ph by using Kent super dkh.



Why does it have to be Kent super dkh? There are lots of ways to bring up Alk, that's only one product. I tend to not recommend *specific* products as I always say to each their own.

[brandonros]

Thanks for the help. That makes sense about nitrates and phosphates being consumed immediately. You could just about watch this algae grow. I use API tests for phosphates and nitrates. But just to clarify, are you suggesting I use Kent Super Dkh for the long haul? Is it normal or acceptable to dose the super dkh multiple times per week for the life of the tank? Like I said, I was using Kent's Pro Buffer dkh, but I guess you're saying the Super is better?

I bought the tank and rocks from another guy about a year and a half ago so I don't know the history beyond that. About 30% of the rock is "live" and 70% base. The algae also covers the backside of the glass, the power cords, the powerheads. I'm sure it would cover the sand too, but my sleeper goby is AWESOME at cleaning up every square inch of that sand. I also bought a lawnmower blenny to try to help with the algae, but he could care less and prefers fish food. I put the Phosban in yesterday so hopefully I a difference there.

[Aquarist007]

Why does it have to be Kent super dkh? There are lots of ways to bring up Alk, that's only one product. I tend to not recommend *specific* products as I always say to each their own.

I am just really familiar with the product. I know it will raise the carbonate part of the alk measurement and not the borate. A lot of buffers contain boron which will raise the dkh level but not very use full for corals and clams

[Aquarist007]

Thanks for the help. That makes sense about nitrates and phosphates being consumed immediately. You could just about watch this algae grow. I use API tests for phosphates and nitrates. But just to clarify, are you suggesting I use Kent Super Dkh for the long haul? Is it normal or acceptable to dose the super dkh multiple times per week for the life of the tank? Like I said, I was using Kent's Pro Buffer dkh, but I guess you're saying the Super is better?

I bought the tank and rocks from another guy about a year and a half ago so I don't know the history beyond that. About 30% of the rock is "live" and 70% base. The algae also covers the backside of the glass, the power cords, the powerheads. I'm sure it would cover the sand too, but my sleeper goby is AWESOME at cleaning up every square inch of that sand. I also bought a lawnmower blenny to try to help with the algae, but he could care less and prefers fish food. I put the Phosban in yesterday so hopefully I a difference there.

I would use the Kent super to raise my levels and then look into a two part dosing product to maintain them in acceptable ranges. I do not target for specific number but keep all tank parameters within acceptable ranges.
If you don't you can get yourself in a see saw bind of rapidly changing levels and spending a lot of money on one supplement after another

I would still add gfo in a reactor and run it for awhile plus throw in a clean piece of reefrock

[bertoni]

Super-Buffer DKH does contain some borate. I would avoid it, but it's likely okay.