Why not to treat a 'well' fish...

[Sk8r]

This question has come up nearly daily for the last bit in one form or another...Here's your answer with the reasoning.

1. naturally your new fish should be in quarantine...especially your first fish and all fish...why? Because fish go through a system that exposes them to all sorts of parasites and diseases. Some sales companies are 'cleaner' than others, but it just takes one getting through your guard............
2...............but................should you treat as a precaution? NO....because you have to diagnose before treating.
3-------------why? Because you can't switch treatments easily and they're not compatible, ie, you can't dump an antibiotic into water you've treated with copper or vice versa. This means you have to totally change the water.......which takes time, and when you've got a sick fish, HOURS can matter. These things can go pretty fast when they reach a certain stage, and if you're still futzing around with a water change, you can run out of time.
4...........and.........these treatments are hard on fishes. Precise dosage can be difficult. Water evaporation in a treatment tank can cause the medication to concentrate and become stronger, so the fish is getting more than is safe; [put a tape line on your tank showing water level when the salinity is precisely correct and keep it there!}
and some medications, like copper---understand, copper is actually poisonous. It's just lethal to small parasites faster than it is to fish. It's nothing to use if you aren't absolutely sure that's what you're dealing with.

5...What can be wrong with your fish? Fuzzes on skin---marine velvet or brooklyella. Dots on skin -----lymphocysitis, sand stuck to the slime coat, or marine ich, a parasite. Red spots...a bruise-like injury, or a bacterial infection...etc. There's an entire forum dedicated to this, called Fish Disease. Don't waste time in this forum posting 'my fish has spots'...get over there and start looking for what to do, starting with the stickies: again: time is of the essence.
Hope that helps.

[Bones12]

Great post, I never understood why people add the stress of medications onto an already stressed fish! I understand the preventative thinking behind it, but thats why we use qt tanks as a precaution.

[rwb500]

say you've had a fish in your QT for a little bit, and it looks healthy. this is a relatively hardy species and you have good reason to believe that a copper/prazipro treatment won't hurt it. why not just give it a week of treatment?

to me, the choice seems to be between two risks: harming the fish with medication, or introducing an invisible parasite to your tank.

I think I know what your answer will be but I am looking forward to hearing your reasoning (because I know you know more than i do on the subject).

[Bones12]

say you've had a fish in your QT for a little bit, and it looks healthy. this is a relatively hardy species and you have good reason to believe that a copper/prazipro treatment won't hurt it. why not just give it a week of treatment?

to me, the choice seems to be between two risks: harming the fish with medication, or introducing an invisible parasite to your tank.

I think I know what your answer will be but I am looking forward to hearing your reasoning (because I know you know more than i do on the subject).

I know I'm a newbie to sw, but if it looks healthy, eats good, and swims fine, why subject it to unnecessary poisons? I would rather be patient and let it stay in qt for the right amount of time, instead of wasting money and risking the fish's health JMO.

[bnumair]

Great post.... I always recommend prazipro treatment on all fish for 2 weeks in qt. Then after that 6 weeks in observation and within that observation period if some disease or parasites occur then treat accordingly.
For me tangs are a different story. After 2 weeks of prazipro I run 2 to 3 weeks of copper only due to the fact tangs are ich magnets. Otherwise just observe diagnose then treat.

Note: long time ago I had a hippo tang that successfully completed 8 weeks in qt without any treatment. Never showed any signs of ich or disease but After transferring to main tank a few days later developed ich. This is why I do copper on all tangs now.

[NTP66]

I realize that everyone's going to have differing opinions on this, but based on a lot of reading that I've been doing here, I do see a lot of people who proactively treat new fish in QT with PraziPro. I myself am one day away from completing tank transfer on my two fish in QT, and plan on using PraziPro in the larger QT I have waiting for them before they go into the DT. My next fish that's going into QT (same procedure planned) is a Flame Angel, which apparently a lot of people treat with PraziPro to deal with potential fluke issues.

Would you still skip PraziPro if you saw no issues, even though it appears to be far less dangerous to the fish than something along the lines of copper?

[Palting]

I respectfully disagree with you, Sk8r, for 2 reasons.
1. Fish can carry disease, like Ich, and look perfectly healthy for the 4 weeks under observation.
2. We are not all disease experts. The fish may indeed show signs of disease, but we don't see it.

Well, I'll add a third reason. 3. The major stress to fish, IMO, is the improperly set-up QT. If the QT is properly set-up with adequate biological filtration, flow, and oxygenation, adding medications properly like Prazipro, copper, or doing hyposalinity will not stress the fish significantly.

Just my opinion :D.

[Ostara]

I respectfully disagree with you, Sk8r, for 2 reasons.
1. Fish can carry disease, like Ich, and look perfectly healthy for the 4 weeks under observation.
2. We are not all disease experts. The fish may indeed show sdisease, but we don't see it.

Well, I'll add a third reason. 3. The major stress to fish, IMO, is the improperly set-up QT. If the QT is properly set-up with adequate biological filtration, flow, and oxygenation, adding medications properly like Prazipro, copper, or doing hyposalinity will not stress the fish significantly.

Just my opinion :D.

Well said. All fish need to be treated for crypt and flukes since so many of them have it, whether it can be seen or not. Just like proper quarantine does not stress fish, properly dosed Cupramine/praziquantel do not stress fish either. There is no point in QTing if you are afraid to treat. It is especially important for newbies to the hobby to get used to and understand the importance of treating for crypt in particular. Otherwise they run the risk of introducing it to their tank from the start and then having to fallow their tank for 12 weeks while treating the fish in quarantine anyway. There is a reason that all of the disease gurus on this forum observe some form of prophylactic treatment.

[wooden_reefer]

Some diseases have to be treated preventively without any sign of them.

Some do not.

The lifecycle of the pathogen has a lot to do with whether to treat preventively or not. This has to be considered in view of two factors.

The two key factors in disease control are physical confinement of a closed system (a matter of geometry and math) wrt to protozoan diseases particularly and the lack of previous exposure to the particular strain of bacteria especially.

"Treating preventively to 'well' fish is zealous" has to rate among the greatest source of cheap stuffs on Craigslist. This myth still lingers on for some reason.

The reluctance to treat certain diseases preventively has to rank among the worst misconceptions in this hobby.

[EllieSuz]

I've quarantined all my fish, but only observed disease/parasites once. That fish was treated successfully. The others made the move to the DT after eight weeks and have remained healthy ever since. Therefore, I totally agree with Sk8r. Quarantine is for observation first and treatment second, and then only if symptoms appear.

[wooden_reefer]

After one understands the lifecycle of ich and appreciates the closed nature of an aquarium, the only well fish wrt to ich is one that does not have ich at all, none, zilch.

A well fish wrt to ich does not come naturally. Naturally ich is at a state of extremely humble existence so as not to induce enhanced resistance from fish. One has to appreciate how utterly profoundly a closed system affects this parasite-host relationship. A very light infestation becomes a killer only in a closed system, hence ich HAS TO BE ERADICATED in a closed system.

[wooden_reefer]

Pathogenic bacteria cannot be eradicated and eradication is not the objective. Promoting immunity and reducing waterborne concentration are the objectives.

Even in the ocean, a pathogenic bacteria does not leave the host as a part of its lifecycle. Hence, even in the ocean, bacteria-host relationship is often a matter of life and death struggle.

[wooden_reefer]

90% plus of fish will not experience stress in QT if the QT is proper. If a fish eats prepared food well and if the QT tank is not too small, there should not be stress.

A QT is not properly set up if the medium has not been robustly cycled before QT starts. There are also some other factors that make fish feel secure in QT. Size of the QT tank is one for some fish.

maybe 10% of fish will feel stress in QT. These difficult fish do not eat prepared food well enough and soon enough. Leave them to experienced aquarists.

[Chaotic Reefer4u]

Good information everyone