Fish survive quarantine then die - help

[308systems]

Hi,
I have developed a rigorous quarantine procedure, which covers 45 days and is designed to eliminat(hopefully) all common fish diseases/parasites.

I have successfully used it to introduce new fish into my 3 year old tank(3ft cylinder, 4ft deep 200gal FOWLR). All water parameters are great(I learned...).

Right now I have the following fish:
1`blue tang
1 yellowdamsel(the survivor fish - lived through my learning experiences)
2 clownfish
2 pajama cardinals
1 firefish
1 watchman goby

Here is the issue:
I have tried to introduce yellow tangs, flame angels, butterflies, anthias, foxface and they all survive the rigorous quarantine(as did the existing fish), but they all die within 30 days following introduction.

Any thoughts as to why??

I would really like to add a few more fish, but perhaps the tank is maxed out?

Thanks for the feedback,
Mark

[Windirmere]

chance that the resident tang bullys new arrivals and doesn't allow them to eat?

[308systems]

Not really, the tang was added with the last batch of anthias and flame angel, he/she has now establishe a hiding place and rarely ventures more than 2 ft from the lair....

[keithhays]

You do have several territorial fish, but my first questions I think are:

What are the symptoms before death?
What are the signs post mortem?
How long does it take each fish to die once they start showing symptoms, if any?

[FTDelta]

I agree. Most likely the resident Tang is the cause of your fish deaths. Not to mention your current tank being a cylindral tank doesn't help matter much. Tangs needs a lot of swimming room LENGTH-WISE, not vertical.

[gsiegel]

I agree with the FTDelta- could be the Tang. Tangs need more room to roam - 3 feet is not nearly enough. Clowns can also be territorial and damsels are mean.

[308systems]

They(tang, angtias, yellow tang, flame angel) were all in the same 30gal QT tank together for approx 45 days.

No pre/post mortem unusual symptoms, other than the flame angel started looking a little frail prior to death. No disease indications, just kicked the bucket.

Thus, since the blue tang and the others were all together for 45 days w/o issues. Even today, I have not noticed any overt aggressive behavior against the other fish.

The tang can swim around the circumference of the tank for miles - but rarely swims farther than 2 ft from the artificial coral "home" it has claimed.

Thoughts?

[keithhays]

They(tang, angtias, yellow tang, flame angel) were all in the same 30gal QT tank together for approx 45 days.

No pre/post mortem unusual symptoms, other than the flame angel started looking a little frail prior to death. No disease indications, just kicked the bucket.

Thus, since the blue tang and the others were all together for 45 days w/o issues. Even today, I have not noticed any overt aggressive behavior against the other fish.

The tang can swim around the circumference of the tank for miles - but rarely swims farther than 2 ft from the artificial coral "home" it has claimed.

Thoughts?

I know you said water parameters are good, but would you post your numbers for everything you measure?

[stingythingy45]

Do you use the water change from the display to fill the QT?
How do you acclimate?
Is the salinity the same in both tanks?
Do you treat at all in the QT tank?

[TomTheWicked]

They(tang, angtias, yellow tang, flame angel) were all in the same 30gal QT tank together for approx 45 days.
I didn't gather that from the original post. It sounded like the tang, damsel, clowns, etc were already established in the tank when you introduced the anthias, yellow tang, flame angel, etc.

I'm curious to know what's causing this because I had a similar issue. I had about 6 fish die after only a few days of introducing them. I finally had to concede that my Maroon Clown was a bully, and remove it. I've since introduced 5 new fish without issue. GL!

[308systems]

I change 60gal of the 300gal system weekly, with system salinity approximately 1.0235

I have a RO/DI source for all the incoming water.

Water parameters:
NH3 - 0
KH - 7
Phosphate - 0
PH - 8
Temp - approx 72 deg

I have a full 3 page quarantine procedure which i would be happy to post if desired. All the fish made it through the 45 day procedure, then died within 30 days of DT introduction.

The QT is also a treatment tank during the 45 days, and has completely different water(with similar parameters). THen, when ready for DT intro, I start slowly replacing the QT waer with actual DT water over a 8hr period(making sure the parameters are the same of course).

Thanks,

[keithhays]

I change 60gal of the 300gal system weekly, with system salinity approximately 1.0235

I have a RO/DI source for all the incoming water.

Water parameters:
NH3 - 0
KH - 7
Phosphate - 0
PH - 8
Temp - approx 72 deg

I have a full 3 page quarantine procedure which i would be happy to post if desired. All the fish made it through the 45 day procedure, then died within 30 days of DT introduction.

The QT is also a treatment tank during the 45 days, and has completely different water(with similar parameters). THen, when ready for DT intro, I start slowly replacing the QT waer with actual DT water over a 8hr period(making sure the parameters are the same of course).

Thanks,
What are the parameters of the quarantine?

[stingythingy45]

I'm thinking I would boost that temp. from72>79 deg.

[wooden_reefer]

Hi,
I have developed a rigorous quarantine procedure, which covers 45 days and is designed to eliminat(hopefully) all common fish diseases/parasites.



Even as a QT hawk here, I cannot aim to eliminate all common diseases of fish in QT.

Do not lump all diseases together, in either direction, that is , either giving up on elimination (eradication) on all diseases, or your aim of eliminating all common diseases.

Your objective should be dictated by reality. The keys are the lifecycle of the pathogen, relation with fish host, and the physical confinement of a closed system of an aquarium.

Protozoans diseases should be eradicated.

external bacterial diseases has to be controlled and allow immunity to become effective later.

Internal bacteria and fungus are by a mix of the best chemical environment and nutrition, and to a lesser degree than external by UV.

Macro-parasites can be elimination or control in food periodically or as preventive treament in QT water.


You cannot eliminate all pathogenic bacteria and all macro-parasites.

Do you have UV set up properly? Do you treat against macro-parasites? These can be the key questions.

[keithhays]

Careful; we don't have enough info yet to know what's happening.

[worm5406]

The QT is also a treatment tank during the 45 days, and has completely different water(with similar parameters). THen, when ready for DT intro, I start slowly replacing the QT waer with actual DT water over a 8hr period(making sure the parameters are the same of course).

Thanks,

Where does this water come from? How ever you are making it seems like is the problem.

Have you ever tried to take the DT water and put in the QT? Since the fish is eventually going to go there, it would be better to get it used to that instead of a different source/type.

[wooden_reefer]

45 days is not particularly long for QT. less than seven weeks. I generally go longer, about 12 weeks.

I always QT as many fish as I can get at once, but doing so I always make sure that when I introduce them all in DT there will be enough nitrification bacteria in DT to handle the sudden increase in bioload.

It is known that nitrification bacteria will survive several weeks without ammonia and come back quickly when there is again ammonia, but what this number of weeks is not clearly known, I believe. Certainly, at least three weeks will not be a problem.

I always either recharge the DT or add more cycled medium into the DT (or delay cycling the DT) in anticipation of introducing all the fish into DT after QT.

You said water paremeter is not a question, but I 'd like to know what tests you have done, or have you done what I always do to ensure enough nitrification at all times.

[wooden_reefer]

Some fish, due to the method of collection, holding, and shipment, are compromised and will live only for a couple of months.

Having keen eyes for health of fish before buying is also very important.

Never expose your fish to ammonia if you can avoid so, even low levels.

[FTDelta]

The tang can swim around the circumference of the tank for miles - but rarely swims farther than 2 ft from the artificial coral "home" it has claimed.

Again - tangs need to be in tanks of at least 6-8 feet LONG because due to their swimming nature. Going in circles will stress them out. It's like putting a fully matured thoroughbred race horse inside a small backyard. Not enough room to run.

Again - you say your tang swims no farther than 2 ft. from the artificial coral 'home' it claimed. That 2 foot space is his territory for his to defend from newcomers.

Please - remove the tang to a larger tank or trade him off at your LFS for credit. Eventually that tang is going to get quite large for that 3foot diameter tank.

[wooden_reefer]

Say something about water chemical quality DURING QT.

How was the QT set up so that there was never ammonia while the fish was in it?

[keithhays]

I think it would be good to restate what is known so far before we run amok:

So far we have fish dying with for the most part no signs before death, and no distinguishing marks of attack or disease after death. The tank parameters are not what are commonly seen for reefs, but fit for fish only tanks excepting possibly 72 degree water for fish that may inhabit warmer waters, but likely wouldn't kill them. The fish are QT'd for only 45 days, but in water parameters significantly different from the DT with an 8 hour adjustment period prior to introduction into the DT. We don't know yet the parameters of the QT. If the QT parameter for salinity is that seen in most reef tanks, I suspect the 8 hour adjustment may not be enough.

[wooden_reefer]

I'm thinking I would boost that temp. from72>79 deg.

+1

Immunity is better at top half of range.

[keithhays]

+1

Immunity is better at top half of range.

Could be, but in colder water ich would likely be visible as it thins the mucus layer on the fish. Also, no ich has been seen at any time. Doesn't mean it is not there, but it hasn't been seen.

[wooden_reefer]

Could be, but in colder water ich would likely be visible as it thins the mucus layer on the fish. Also, no ich has been seen at any time. Doesn't mean it is not there, but it hasn't been seen.

Ich is a dead horse issue. Eradication of ich is certain and one does not need this marginal consideration.

Immunity against bacterial infection is far more critical.

72F during QT is not recommended unless one knows the origin and range of all the fish. I'd keep fish at about 80F during QT.