All my fish keep dieing

[JeffSauer]

So every time I go to the pet store and I bring something back it gets ich and dies. So far the only thing I have in my tank is live rock, coralline algae and 3 damsels.

I’ve tested all my water parameters and everything is perfect:

Ammonia – 0
Nitrites – 0
Nitrates – 0
Salinity – 1.024
Temp – 77.8°
pH – 8.3

I bought my tank new, set everything up and got it running for about 4 weeks. I went out and bought 2 clowns, flame angel, yellow tang and a diamond goby. Everything was great for about 2 months, until I brought home a purple tang. I got him in QT and kept him in there for around 3 weeks. He got fat, and almost got excited every time I came near to feed him. I figure he was ready to join everyone and got him in the display tank. The next morning every fish in the display had ich…and I’m not talking some small specks…almost velvet bad. Killed “everything” 3 days after I put the purple in the display.

I figured it was just a stroke of bad luck so I cranked up the temp, turned the power heads up full blast and did a 25% water change every week and kept all of my parameters perfect for 6 months. I finally felt it was ready to house some more fish, so I turned everything back down, turned the lights back on and got everything ready.

3 weeks ago I bought some damsels to throw in there and they are doing great! Figured it was a good time to get everything again and went to my LFS Friday and bought some more clowns and a blonde naso tang.
Figured I would just go ahead and put them immediately in the tank I acclimated them and put them in….that was a bad idea.

The blonde started getting back spots by Saturday evening and the clowns already have it pretty freaking bad. So I took them out and put them in QT, naso tang was dead this morning when I went and checked on him and the clowns are getting worse.

I used display tank water when putting them in QT Sunday afternoon and changed out their water last night with fresh display tank water. I had fish when I was younger and didn’t have “1” die the whole time I had them for 6 years…I just can’t catch a break this time! Everything keeps dying!

I just don’t want to have a bunch of damsels in my tank and “call it good enough”

Someone tell me what I’m doing wrong!

[JeffSauer]

By the way, i don't buy fish the LSF hasn't already had for less than 6 weeks. So i dont think its the stress of the move.

[gbru316]

So every time I go to the pet store and I bring something back it gets ich and dies. So far the only thing I have in my tank is live rock, coralline algae and 3 damsels.

I’ve tested all my water parameters and everything is perfect:

Ammonia – 0
Nitrites – 0
Nitrates – 0
Salinity – 1.024
Temp – 77.8°
pH – 8.3

I bought my tank new, set everything up and got it running for about 4 weeks. I went out and bought 2 clowns, flame angel, yellow tang and a diamond goby. Everything was great for about 2 months, until I brought home a purple tang. I got him in QT and kept him in there for around 3 weeks. He got fat, and almost got excited every time I came near to feed him. I figure he was ready to join everyone and got him in the display tank. The next morning every fish in the display had ich…and I’m not talking some small specks…almost velvet bad. Killed “everything” 3 days after I put the purple in the display.

I figured it was just a stroke of bad luck so I cranked up the temp, turned the power heads up full blast and did a 25% water change every week and kept all of my parameters perfect for 6 months. I finally felt it was ready to house some more fish, so I turned everything back down, turned the lights back on and got everything ready.

3 weeks ago I bought some damsels to throw in there and they are doing great! Figured it was a good time to get everything again and went to my LFS Friday and bought some more clowns and a blonde naso tang.
Figured I would just go ahead and put them immediately in the tank I acclimated them and put them in….that was a bad idea.

The blonde started getting back spots by Saturday evening and the clowns already have it pretty freaking bad. So I took them out and put them in QT, naso tang was dead this morning when I went and checked on him and the clowns are getting worse.

I used display tank water when putting them in QT Sunday afternoon and changed out their water last night with fresh display tank water. I had fish when I was younger and didn’t have “1” die the whole time I had them for 6 years…I just can’t catch a break this time! Everything keeps dying!

I just don’t want to have a bunch of damsels in my tank and “call it good enough”

Someone tell me what I’m doing wrong!


Tank size?


Moves ALWAYS stress fish. There is no way around it.

[Redseadragon12]

Dude dose your tank for ich and quarantine your fish before adding them to it always. You have to treat your fish first before adding them to kill all the nasties that are on them.

[Fishmommy]

I am a noob but reading the forums has taught me 2 things: automatically assume a new fish has ich and treat accordingly, and QT for much much longer than a couple weeks


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[JeffSauer]

tank size?


Moves always stress fish. There is no way around it.

100 gallon

[JeffSauer]

the issue is both times it was a matter of 48 hours from time of infestation and death, ive never heard or seen ich kill that quickly

[JeffSauer]

Naso tang was in QT, and he still died

[Joe0813]

Your supposed to qt for 8 weeks... a naso tang is to big for a 100 gallon tank.

[JeffSauer]

I understand....but they are dying in qt. I don't think everyone is reading the rest of my post

[gbru316]

RO/DI water?

[Fishmommy]

QT after being in the DT doesn't count


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[JeffSauer]

RO/DI water?

Yes, every time. tap water has never even seen my aquarium stuff even for rinsing.

[JeffSauer]

QT after being in the DT doesn't count

I understand, there was nothing else in the display tank so i figured i would just go ahead and put him in, but as soon as i noticed a spot i took him out immediately and put him in QT.

[hkgar]

Here is a link to a sticky thread in the Disease forum. You must treat the ick, it will not just go away.

There are plenty of other good threads on Ick in that forum.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1991470

Also check for threads on QTing with copper to treat in coming fish that might have Ick.

[JeffSauer]

I live out in the country and its an hour drive to the fish store...could that be the problem? I didn't think it would be since people ship fish overnight.

I put the bags the come in a small cooler in my front seat with me on the drive home.

[gbru316]

FWIW, yellow tangs and purple tangs usually don't do well together. The yellow had already established territory when you added the purple. The yellow most likely harassed the purple, which caused stress which led to ich. Tangs are ich magnets.

Slow your roll a bit and spend some time reading. You added 5 fish to an uncycled tank (mistake 1), then added a purple tang (mistake 2), then had a several month period (perfectly fine), then added another handful of fish to a now uncycled tank (mistake 3), including a fish that would outgrow the tank (mistake 4) and you're now using display water as QT water (mistake 5).

1. You added too many fish, tank wasn't cycled. Ensure tank is cycled prior to adding fish.

2. Your tank is big enough for one (1) tang. No more.

3. During this fallow period, unless ammonia was being added in some way, nitrifying bacteria died off, so you had a biologically new tank. See #1.

4. EVERYONE plans on upgrading tanks before their fish gets too big. It rarely happens. Purchase for what you have, not what you want.

5. The point of QT is to isolate the inhabitants while monitoring/treating to ensure nothing gets transferred. If you suspect the tank water is causing problems, why are you adding it to the QT? Mix FRESH saltwater (with RO/DI) for your QT. They are separate systems, treat them as such.

[JeffSauer]

Here is a link to a sticky thread in the Disease forum. You must treat the ick, it will not just go away.

There are plenty of other good threads on Ick in that forum.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1991470

Also check for threads on QTing with copper to treat in coming fish that might have Ick.

I left the tank fallow for almost 6 months between my tank crash and now. absolutely nothing was in the tank, and i used some damsels for a test to make sure nothing was still in there for 6 weeks. Nothing came up so i bought some new fish...24 hours i brought the fish home they both had ich, i put them in QT and treated with stress coat and treated word for word using Kordon rid ich plus, changed the water like i was supposed to las tnight and naso was dead.

[rworegon]

Your mistake was putting a blue in you tank without QT for a sufficient amount of time. At this point, your tank is infested with the parasites. get rid of the damsels, mean little fish anyway and run fallow for about 8 weeks. Ich cannot live without a fish host. After that you are good to start stocking again provided you follow a good QT protocol.

[DUPioneers]

I will let others expound upon everything that has gone wrong, here...

But, there is one BIG TAKEAWAY that you are hopefully getting from this experience: YOUR LFS's WATER SYSTEM HAS ICH!!!

[celamb89]

do you treat the fish for ich while in QT? try hypo!

[wooden_reefer]

I’ve tested all my water parameters and everything is perfect:

Ammonia – 0
Nitrites – 0
Nitrates – 0
Salinity – 1.024
Temp – 77.8°
pH – 8.3



Your water has not been perfect.

Chemical water quality is only that chemical. When your water is laden with waterborne pathogens in a closed system like your aquarium, you fish can get infection and infestation of all sorts.

Against protozoans like ich the key is not chemical water quality, NOT nutrition, NOT stress, Not enhancable immunity. The key factor about protozoans like ich is the closed nature of your tank. The key factors are geometry, math, and chance. You have to accept this and the only reasonable plan is to QT toward eradication. There are many posts on this procedure. DO NOT just obeserve in QT; you have to treat preventative to eradicate protozoan diseases.

After protozoans like ich, your next greatest pathogenic threat is bacterial infection. For this, reducing concentration of waterborne pathogenic bacteria and enhancing immunity are the key.

You have to study on this and good luck.

[rworegon]

Oh, ok. Kordon rid ich is a useless product. That stuff will not kill ich!!!! As I said before, remove all fish from your tank. Keep a cleanup crew in there and feed just enough to keep them alive and keep the beneficial bacteria growing. Leave it that way for 8 to 10 weeks. After about 4 to 6 weeks you can start a QT for your first new fish. Follow an established QT protocol, and add fish slowly after QT'in each fish. You will be alright. As posted above, DO NOT USE DT water in your QT tank.

[JeffSauer]

FWIW, yellow tangs and purple tangs usually don't do well together. The yellow had already established territory when you added the purple. The yellow most likely harassed the purple, which caused stress which led to ich. Tangs are ich magnets.

Slow your roll a bit and spend some time reading. You added 5 fish to an uncycled tank (mistake 1), then added a purple tang (mistake 2), then had a several month period (perfectly fine), then added another handful of fish to a now uncycled tank (mistake 3), including a fish that would outgrow the tank (mistake 4) and you're now using display water as QT water (mistake 5).

1. You added too many fish, tank wasn't cycled. Ensure tank is cycled prior to adding fish.

2. Your tank is big enough for one (1) tang. No more.

3. During this fallow period, unless ammonia was being added in some way, nitrifying bacteria died off, so you had a biologically new tank. See #1.

4. EVERYONE plans on upgrading tanks before their fish gets too big. It rarely happens. Purchase for what you have, not what you want.

5. The point of QT is to isolate the inhabitants while monitoring/treating to ensure nothing gets transferred. If you suspect the tank water is causing problems, why are you adding it to the QT? Mix FRESH saltwater (with RO/DI) for your QT. They are separate systems, treat them as such.

The thing is i don't think its the water...as far as i can tell it cant be the water. nothing is wrong with it. I'm wondering if its something else

[johnike]

I will let others expound upon everything that has gone wrong, here...

But, there is one BIG TAKEAWAY that you are hopefully getting from this experience: YOUR LFS's WATER SYSTEM HAS ICH!!!

This.

[gbru316]

I left the tank fallow for almost 6 months between my tank crash and now. absolutely nothing was in the tank, and i used some damsels for a test to make sure nothing was still in there for 6 weeks. Nothing came up so i bought some new fish...24 hours i brought the fish home they both had ich, i put them in QT and treated with stress coat and treated word for word using Kordon rid ich plus, changed the water like i was supposed to las tnight and naso was dead.


Purchase 1 fish at a time, quarantine for several weeks prior to adding to tank.

IF tank has been empty, do not add fish. Your tank needs to cycle again. Use frozen shrimp, not live fish, to do this. This process tanks 4-8 weeks minimum. During this time, do not add fish as it will lead to stress, which can uncover underlying ich problems.

[gbru316]

The thing is i don't think its the water...as far as i can tell it cant be the water. nothing is wrong with it. I'm wondering if its something else

And you can you tell, exactly? Test kits test only the chemicals you test for. There are thousands of other harmful substances that could cause your problems. Do you use GAC? What other methods are you using to be sure it isn't the water? sight? Smell? Taste?

My point is, you can't be sure it isn't the water, and you shouldn't make assumptions.

What is the TDS out of your RO/DI? Where is your source water coming from (plumbing-wise)?

[gbru316]

How are you measuring your SG?

[JeffSauer]

This.

I'm about to move and haven't bought my own RO/DI unit yet and i've been buying my water from my LFS....could this really be the problem? He has several display tanks and everything seems to be fine in those

[JeffSauer]

Purchase 1 fish at a time, quarantine for several weeks prior to adding to tank.

IF tank has been empty, do not add fish. Your tank needs to cycle again. Use frozen shrimp, not live fish, to do this. This process tanks 4-8 weeks minimum. During this time, do not add fish as it will lead to stress, which can uncover underlying ich problems.

No, the tank hasn't been empty of water since i bought it, and i change 10% weekly like clockwork.

[JeffSauer]

how are you measuring your sg?

sg?

[wooden_reefer]

The thing is i don't think its the water...as far as i can tell it cant be the water. nothing is wrong with it. I'm wondering if its something else

IT IS THE WATER or In the water!!!

You are still stuck with water chemical quality only.

It is the waterborne pathogens in the water in a closed system.

Water chemistry is only one facet (the easy facet) of keeping fish well. There is a whole dimension about the pathogens that is concentrated in the water due to the closed nature of an aquarium.

You have to really allow this idea to sink in. Really think about it.

[uhupong]

this.

+1

[JeffSauer]

So from what i'm gathering there still might be "some" ich left over from my past problem that took my tank out? I left my tank fallow for almost 6 months with a temp of 92°...i thought that would for sure kill everything. Plus i change 25% of water weekly

[JeffSauer]

IT IS THE WATER or In the water!!!

You are still stuck with water chemical quality only.

It is the waterborne pathogens in the water in a closed system.

Water chemistry is only one facet (the easy facet) of keeping fish well. There is a whole dimension about the pathogens that is concentrated in the water due to the closed nature of an aquarium.

You have to really allow this idea to sink in. Really think about it.

ok, i understand. I just figured that everything would have been taken care of during that 6 month fallow period i had. seriously...nothing was in it with the lights turned off for 6 months. So how would i go about getting rid of these pathogens? Is there a way i can test for it?

Do i need to do a 100% water change?

[wooden_reefer]

So from what i'm gathering there still might be "some" ich left over from my past problem that took my tank out? I left my tank fallow for almost 6 months with a temp of 92°...i thought that would for sure kill everything. Plus i change 25% of water weekly

6 months of real fallow period will rid a tank of ich. Did you remove ALL fish from the tank during that period?

Did you actively treat the fish in a separate tank for at least 8 weeks while you wait for the fallow period to expire?

[gbru316]

No, the tank hasn't been empty of water since i bought it, and i change 10% weekly like clockwork.



I'm not talking empty of water, I'm talking empty of living organisms. Without their waste products, the bacteria needed to convert ammonia to nitrate die off. If your tank has water but no other waste-generating organisms in it for 6 months, it's basically a new tank.

sg?

SG = specific gravity.

[gbru316]

Do i need to do a 100% water change?

Wouldn't hurt.

[pinnatus]

Whe adding fish to a new tank, think about this.

The 1st fish goes in. You have cycled the tank meaning that there is a population of bacteria equal to the bioload that you had in the tank, ie equal to a rotting shrimp, or whatever you used to cycle the tank. The bacteria population is in equilibrium with the bioload, which is slight. Next, you add a fish. The bioload doubles or triples. Suddenly, the bacteria cannot keep up with the bioload. Ammonia rises. Nitrites rise. The bacteria population grows, and slowly consume the ammonia and nitrites. Then the bacteria are again in equilibrium with the bioload. The next fish added now increases the bioload, maybe doubling it or less this time. The bacteria again are behind, but can catch up faster because there are more to start with and because you have upset the bioload by a relatively lower amount. The next fish will only increase bioload by 33%, and the system responds even faster. Eventually, you can add a couple of fish at a time and the tank will hardly notice. This is an established tank.

Your tank is new, and you need to slowly add fish, one at a time to get the tank established. I usually add a fish and wait around 6 weeks til I add another fish. And I don't add if the other fish are sick or not eating or not healthy. Once the tank is established, you can add more than one fish at a time, or add them more quickly.

When the tank gets upset, high ammonia, nitrite or whatever, chances are that your fish will get sick or die. The advice above on quarantining and ich is great advice.

Tangs are very prone to ich.

Buying healthy fish is also very important. I always make sure the fish is eating in the LFS tank. Also, I look closely at the transparent fins and look for spots or blotches or fin damage. These are all signs of disease - ich, velvet, fin rot. I also watch them breathing. Fast breathing is a bad sign. Scratching is a bad sign.

I use copper to treat ich. It works. Most other ich cures out there do not work. There are other non medicine ways to kill it, but I find that copper works just fine for me. But it will kill all inverts.

I hope this helps.

[wooden_reefer]

No, the tank hasn't been empty of water since i bought it, and i change 10% weekly like clockwork.

He meant empty of bioload.

It is not just empty but having low bioload.

Nitrification bacteria will live only for a certain period when there is no ammonia or nitrite, their food. You do not need to worry for about three weeks, but longer than three weeks I always take measure to make sure that there will be enough nitrification bacteria.

[JeffSauer]

6 months of real fallow period will rid a tank of ich. Did you remove ALL fish from the tank during that period?

Did you actively treat the fish in a separate tank for at least 8 weeks while you wait for the fallow period to expire?

That's the thing...my last ich problem killed "everything" in my tank. So i gave my inverts to a buddy and left my tank "lifeless" for 6 months. I even threw out my macro algae just to be sure. The only thing left in my tank was water, rock and sand (that's it) I kept all my levels good, did a 25% water change every Saturday and stirred the sand every other day just to make sure nothing was hiding. 6 whole months of doing that, a lifeless, dark tank running at 92°. That would have had to kill the ich right?

[JeffSauer]

SG = specific gravity.

refractometer, which i calibrate with RO water every other week. I'm really anal and thats why this is so irritating to me.

[gbru316]

refractometer, which i calibrate with RO water every other week. I'm really anal and thats why this is so irritating to me.

calibrate with a calibration solution, not RO. When you calibrate with RO, you're assuming that your RO water has NOTHING in it. You also aren't measuring in the 1.000 range, you're measuring around 1.026. Buy some 1.026 calibration solution, recalibrate, and measure.

[wooden_reefer]

Whe adding fish to a new tank, think about this.

The 1st fish goes in. You have cycled the tank meaning that there is a population of bacteria equal to the bioload that you had in the tank, ie equal to a rotting shrimp, or whatever you used to cycle the tank. The bacteria population is in equilibrium with the bioload, which is slight. Next, you add a fish. The bioload doubles or triples. Suddenly, the bacteria cannot keep up with the bioload. Ammonia rises. Nitrites rise. The bacteria population grows, and slowly consume the ammonia and nitrites. Then the bacteria are again in equilibrium with the bioload. The next fish added now increases the bioload, maybe doubling it or less this time. The bacteria again are behind, but can catch up faster because there are more to start with and because you have upset the bioload by a relatively lower amount. The next fish will only increase bioload by 33%, and the system responds even faster. Eventually, you can add a couple of fish at a time and the tank will hardly notice. This is an established tank.

Your tank is new, and you need to slowly add fish, one at a time to get the tank established. I usually add a fish and wait around 6 weeks til I add another fish. And I don't add if the other fish are sick or not eating or not healthy. Once the tank is established, you can add more than one fish at a time, or add them more quickly.

When the tank gets upset, high ammonia, nitrite or whatever, chances are that your fish will get sick or die. The advice above on quarantining and ich is great advice.

Tangs are very prone to ich.

Buying healthy fish is also very important. I always make sure the fish is eating in the LFS tank. Also, I look closely at the transparent fins and look for spots or blotches or fin damage. These are all signs of disease - ich, velvet, fin rot. I also watch them breathing. Fast breathing is a bad sign. Scratching is a bad sign.

I use copper to treat ich. It works. Most other ich cures out there do not work. There are other non medicine ways to kill it, but I find that copper works just fine for me. But it will kill all inverts.

I hope this helps.

Actually, using the fishless method to cycle, with artificial high pulses of ammonia during the cycle, at the conclusion of the cycle the nitrification bacteria population will be EXTREMELY high, higher than your tank will ever be naturely, even after your livestock has increased in size ten fold after five years. You CAN (but should not) at once put in very high bioload and still will not have ammonia. This is what I, an experienced aquarist, always aim to do.

You should not stock fish quickly because you are not well-versed with disease control so you have to stock slowly. (Six or seven fish all coming down with ich or bacterial infection is a sorry sight, much more so than just one fish) You have to stock slowly due to disease control reason, NOT water chemical quality reason in DT or QT.

In fact, since you have to stock slowly because of disease control reason, your nitrification bacteria population will begin to decline. You have to take steps to remedy this decline.

[Fishmommy]

. I got him in QT and kept him in there for around 3 weeks. He got fat, and almost got excited every time I came near to feed him. I figure he was ready to join everyone and got him in the display tank.


Figured I would just go ahead and put them immediately in the tank I acclimated them and put them in….that was a bad idea.
!

Here you have twice infected your previously clean DT with ich from the LFS. Do you see?


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[Deinonych]

I will let others expound upon everything that has gone wrong, here...

But, there is one BIG TAKEAWAY that you are hopefully getting from this experience: YOUR LFS's WATER SYSTEM HAS ICH!!!

+1

Once you've let your tank run fallow per others' suggestions, I would find another LFS (or purchase online) if only to remove that variable from the equation. Definitely invest in your own RO/DI system if the water you are getting from the LFS is suspect. Sorry for your troubles; I would be frustrated too.

[JeffSauer]

Buying healthy fish is also very important. I always make sure the fish is eating in the LFS tank. Also, I look closely at the transparent fins and look for spots or blotches or fin damage. These are all signs of disease - ich, velvet, fin rot. I also watch them breathing. Fast breathing is a bad sign. Scratching is a bad sign

HAHA, the funny thing is that i actually watch the fish for about 20 minutes before purchasing. ive passed over alot of fish i have wanted because it was acting weird, or i noticed it had spots...blah blah blah.

[JeffSauer]

calibrate with a calibration solution, not RO. When you calibrate with RO, you're assuming that your RO water has NOTHING in it. You also aren't measuring in the 1.000 range, you're measuring around 1.026. Buy some 1.026 calibration solution, recalibrate, and measure.

i didnt know that, learned something new. can i just buy that online?

[wooden_reefer]

That's the thing...my last ich problem killed "everything" in my tank. So i gave my inverts to a buddy and left my tank "lifeless" for 6 months. I even threw out my macro algae just to be sure. The only thing left in my tank was water, rock and sand (that's it) I kept all my levels good, did a 25% water change every Saturday and stirred the sand every other day just to make sure nothing was hiding. 6 whole months of doing that, a lifeless, dark tank running at 92°. That would have had to kill the ich right?

Then I am sure that ich was re-introduced due to insufficient active treatment of fish.

[JeffSauer]

Here you have twice infected your previously clean DT with ich from the LFS. Do you see?


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so i need to quit buying fish from him...

[gbru316]

i didnt know that, learned something new. can i just buy that online?

Calibration solution (http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/aqua-craft-refractometer-calibration-fluid.html)

[JeffSauer]

Then I am sure that ich was re-introduced due to insufficient active treatment of fish.

dang it

[Fishmommy]

so i need to quit buying fish from him...

Or at least qt them properly and treat them for ich even if they seem fine


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[Fishmommy]

Sorry for your losses - we all want you to succeed next time!


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[wooden_reefer]

Buying healthy fish is also very important. I always make sure the fish is eating in the LFS tank. Also, I look closely at the transparent fins and look for spots or blotches or fin damage. These are all signs of disease - ich, velvet, fin rot. I also watch them breathing. Fast breathing is a bad sign. Scratching is a bad sign.



Although the negative is not true, a fish that feeds very eagerly is generally good indication of health.

A newbie who does not want to take any chances (yearn for success for confidence) should buy only fish that feed eagerly at the LFS.

Some fish will not live for more than a month or two due to the way it was collected, held, or transported. make sure you problem is not with this type of fish.

[la1fan]

I'm sorry for your loss, I think many people will gain valuable information from this thread. Best of luck, JeffSauer.

[wooden_reefer]

All LFS water has ich.

All online water has ich.

You better assume this to be true.

[JeffSauer]

Although the negative is not true, a fish that feeds very eagerly is generally good indication of health.

A newbie who does not want to take any chances (yearn for success for confidence) should buy only fish that feed eagerly at the LFS.

Some fish will not live for more than a month or two due to the way it was collected, held, or transported. make sure you problem is not with this type of fish.

so one last question...should i just start over...again?

[wooden_reefer]

All fellow aquarist water has ich, unless it is someone I know very well, whose skill and mindset I can trust, very few.

[kissman]

I would first buy some Calibration Solution and test salinity. If that is off and you start over you will have same result. I would then think about starting over. You have nothing to lose and nothing in tank.

[wooden_reefer]

so one last question...should i just start over...again?

You do not need to do WC while the tank is fallow, but wait 12 weeks.

QT is a all or nothing process. One failure will negate all previous effort.

ALL fish must have been actively treated to eradicate ich for at least 8 weeks, I go 12 or more weeks and have not had ich for 30 years. Do not wait and see, treat actively.

Your QT medium must be cycled. Study on QT procedure, but the QT medium MUST be cycled deliberately. Do not rob bacteria from DT for use in QT.

[gbru316]

so one last question...should i just start over...again?

You haven't even really started.

drain, refill with new saltwater, cycle/fallow for 12 weeks.

Then, buy 1 fish, quarantine, then add. Repeat after a few weeks if all is well.

[JeffSauer]

You haven't even really started.

drain, refill with new saltwater, cycle/fallow for 12 weeks.

Then, buy 1 fish, quarantine, then add. Repeat after a few weeks if all is well.

sounds good, they say third time is the charm

[Fishmommy]

GL!



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[JeffSauer]

You do not need to do WC while the tank is fallow, but wait 12 weeks.

QT is a all or nothing process. One failure will negate all previous effort.

ALL fish must have been actively treated to eradicate ich for at least 8 weeks, I go 12 or more weeks and have not had ich for 30 years. Do not wait and see, treat actively.

Your QT medium must be cycled. Study on QT procedure, but the QT medium MUST be cycled deliberately. Do not rob bacteria from DT for use in QT.

So what do you mean? When i buy a fish, should i fill the QT with new salt water (non-cycled and never been used) and drip acclimate and insert fish after a little bit? I have my QT tank in a closet so there's no lighting.

[Ostara]

That's the thing...my last ich problem killed "everything" in my tank. So i gave my inverts to a buddy and left my tank "lifeless" for 6 months. I even threw out my macro algae just to be sure. The only thing left in my tank was water, rock and sand (that's it) I kept all my levels good, did a 25% water change every Saturday and stirred the sand every other day just to make sure nothing was hiding. 6 whole months of doing that, a lifeless, dark tank running at 92°. That would have had to kill the ich right?

Yes, but then you threw in unquarantined damsels from your LFS, and then you bought more fish from them, did not quarantine, and threw them in too. That is how you brought the ich back. Every fish you buy needs to be treated for ich. Just because you did not see ich on the damsels in that time does not mean that they did not have it. Some fish may only have a mild infestation in their gills without visible spots on their body.

Remove all fish. Fallow your tank for a minimum of 9 weeks (not 8; this may not be enough with the life cycle of ich) and start over with fish that you have properly quarantined and treated.

[Deinonych]

So what do you mean? When i buy a fish, should i fill the QT with new salt water (non-cycled and never been used) and drip acclimate and insert fish after a little bit? I have my QT tank in a closet so there's no lighting.

You should cycle your QT first with new salt water. Once fully cycled and ready to receive fish, match your salinity to that of the LFS (bring a refractometer with you when acquiring the fish). Then acclimate quickly and release into the QT. Check out Sk8r's sticky in the newbie forum. A lot of LFS use low salinity in their tanks, making it difficult to impossible to acclimate to a "normal" salinity range (1.024-1.026) properly. By matching the QT's salinity to that of the LFS, you can slowly raise salinity over the next several days to weeks without stressing the fish.

[JeffSauer]

You should cycle your QT first with new salt water. Once fully cycled and ready to receive fish, match your salinity to that of the LFS (bring a refractometer with you when acquiring the fish). Then acclimate quickly and release into the QT. Check out Sk8r's sticky in the newbie forum. A lot of LFS use low salinity in their tanks, making it difficult to impossible to acclimate to a "normal" salinity range (1.024-1.026) properly. By matching the QT's salinity to that of the LFS, you can slowly raise salinity over the next several days to weeks without stressing the fish.

OK, so i actually set up another fish tank and let that one cycle as well for QT?

[wooden_reefer]

There is some food for thought.

If you QT your fish one at a time, how long will it take for you to QT all the fish for the tank? Each QT lasts eight weeks min, so 5 fish for the tank will take 40 weeks min? Will most of the bacteria after the cycle have died? Yes.

Yes, during the 40 weeks, what would the nitrification bacteria population look like if you do nothing to address the issue?

You do not need to change water.

Ten days before your first QT is about to finish, making sure that there is no livestock in DT, you can recharge your DT by having it process a pulse of ammmonia of say 3 ppm. After a week, the filter in DT will be again laden with nitrification bacteria.

What then? I suggest that you, at this point, split the filtration medium into two portions. One portion you leave in the DT to support the fish just introduced from the QT, the other portion in a separate container to be fed ammonia to support the next fish after the second QT, and so on.....

This way, similarly, you will never face the "new tank syndrome". Your fish will never be exposed to ammonia.

Do not accept "allowing the population of bacteria to catch up with bioload"; this is an obsolete concept. rather; you make sure that your filter is always ready and no "bacteria catching up with bioload" is ever needed; your fish is never exposed to ammonia.

[JeffSauer]

There is some food for thought.

If you QT your fish one at a time, how long will it take for your to QT all the fish for the tank? Each QT lasts eight weeks min, so 5 fish for the tank will take 40 weeks min? Will most of the bacteria after the cycel have died?

Yes, during the 40 weeks, what would the nitrification bacteria population look like if you do nothing to address the issue?

You do not need to change water.

Ten days before your first QT is about to finish, making sure that there is no livestock in DT, you can recharge your DT by having it process a pulse of ammmonia of say 3 ppm. After a week, the filter will be again laden with nitrification bacteria.

What then? I suggest that you, at this point, split the filtration medium into two portions. One portion you leave in the fish just introduced from the QT, the other portion in a separate container to be fed ammonia to support the next fish after the second QT.

This way, similarly, you will never face the "new tank syndrome". Your fish will never be exposed to ammonia.

Do not accept "allowing the population of bacteria to catch up with bioload" this is an obsolete concept. rather; you make sure that your filter is always ready and no bacteria "catching up with bioload" is ever needed.

makes sense

[Deinonych]

OK, so i actually set up another fish tank and let that one cycle as well for QT?

A QT is a separate tank that you use only for observation/treatment of new arrivals prior to introduction into the DT. It's a bare-bones setup: aquarium, heater, filter, powerhead and a couple of pieces of PVC for the fish to take shelter. If you haven't done so already, take a look at bnumair's sticky guide to setting up a QT at the top of this forum. Lots of useful information there.

[wooden_reefer]

So what do you mean? When i buy a fish, should i fill the QT with new salt water (non-cycled and never been used) and drip acclimate and insert fish after a little bit? I have my QT tank in a closet so there's no lighting.

You cycle the medium for QT just as you would for DT. You use the fishless method and pulses of artificial ammonia. You can rob from the DT but only the seeds but you still have to cycle. You do this about 5-6 weeks before buying any fish.

The only difference is that LR or any rock is not suitable for QT. Use crushed coral, polyester floss, bioballs, cermaic rings etc. You want to gear toward nitrification and you want your medium in QT to be portable, removable and put back in at your will easily.

[Spyderturbo007]

The only difference is that LR or any rock is not suitable for QT.

I've used a small piece of sacrificial live rock in all my QT tanks. Unless I want to vacuum up the stuff that collects on the bottom, I have never had a need to do a water change because of ammonia.

I fill the tank with new salt water, add a new air stone, new HOB filter material and one or two small pieces of live rock. No need to cycle, or do water changes every few days.

Rubble rock is cheap. Just throw a few pieces in your sump and pull one out when you want to QT.

[DUPioneers]

I've used a small piece of sacrificial live rock in all my QT tanks. Unless I want to vacuum up the stuff that collects on the bottom, I have never had a need to do a water change because of ammonia.

I fill the tank with new salt water, add a new air stone, new HOB filter material and one or two small pieces of live rock. No need to cycle, or do water changes every few days.

Rubble rock is cheap. Just throw a few pieces in your sump and pull one out when you want to QT.

You could also do this with sponge filters, bio-wheels from HOB filters, floss cartridges, etc...etc...etc. Any easily transferable medium that can host bacteria can be an effective culture for a quarantine tank.

The trick is, however, the system your bacteria culture is coming from MUST be free of pathogens - otherwise, you're just making a bad situation worse.

[wooden_reefer]

I've used a small piece of sacrificial live rock in all my QT tanks. Unless I want to vacuum up the stuff that collects on the bottom, I have never had a need to do a water change because of ammonia.

I fill the tank with new salt water, add a new air stone, new HOB filter material and one or two small pieces of live rock. No need to cycle, or do water changes every few days.

Rubble rock is cheap. Just throw a few pieces in your sump and pull one out when you want to QT.

Your fish may have suffered from ammonia.

Rock of any kind as the relied upon medium of filration is NOT a good idea in Qt.

Rubble is sort of the definition of non-rock.

The medium of filtration in QT is better compact and removable at your will.

It is better to have a filter medium that can be put into a "filter chamber" and removed from it.

Compact medium is easier to cycle separately in a separate container. It can be removed when a drug that harms nitrification bacteria has to be used, and later put back in.

A medium that is the most active in nitrification per unit volume is better; rock is not such. Rock is a generalist in nitrification and denitrification, you don't need denitrification in QT for fish.

[FTDelta]

+1 on the above response. Are you pouring the water the fish came in into the QT? Definitely don't add any chemical to DT to treat ich. let it die off on its own. Don't add any more fish until you figure out what's causing the deaths.

[Sk8r]

DON"T dose your tank for ich: you'll harm your microlife and screw up your tank. Withdraw and quarantine all fish for 8 weeks up to 12 if you want to be sure. The parasites in your tank will die off for want of fish (specifically fish: they don't infest anything else) and they'll be gone. One or more of your damsels may have it in the gills. While these fish are in quarantine, medicate that tank with cupramine, [do not use carbon in the filter!] or use hyposalinity, and either mark a fill line on the tank and NEVER let that water mark vary, or get an autotopoff specifically for that tank and keep that water bang-on that mark that way. Cupramine is a particularly treacherous med: if you let evaporation concentrate it at all, it can kill your fish; but it will get the ich. Hypo again MUST be managed with the water salinity bang-on for weeks. For more information go over to the Fish Diseases forum and start reading the stickies.

[Spyderturbo007]

Your fish may have suffered from ammonia.


I'm a little confused by this statement. Suffered from ammonia what? I keep an ammonia badge in there at all times that both my wife and I monitor. I also test for ammonia every few days. I assure you that it works and my fish have not been exposed to any ammonia in the QT process.


Rock of any kind as the relied upon medium of filration is NOT a good idea in Qt.


And here I thought all this time that we used live rock to supply and maintain the bacterial filtration for our tanks. :fun5:


Rubble is sort of the definition of non-rock.


It sure looks like rock to me. Can you describe the difference between rock, and non-rock when it comes to the difference between rubble rock and the larger pieces of the same thing. Rubble rock is just broken pieces of larger rock.


The medium of filtration in QT is better compact and removable at your will.


It's not difficult to stick your hand in the tank and pull out a piece of rock sitting on the bottom.

I already keep rubble rock in my sump, so instead of adding bio-balls or sponges that float around, I find it easier to just pull out a piece of what's already sitting there.