What would you do- Transfer back early or wait?

[kenith]

So I'll be leaving on a vacation trip for two weeks for the LAST TWO WEEKS of my 9 week fallow period :headwallblue::headwallblue:. I love my fish and they are all doing well.

What would you do, transfer fish back on week 7.... or put them back in the DT before the trip? The kicker is that I don't have a cycled qt, so I've been doing prime in the morning, feed well during the day, and then almost 100% water change every 4-5 days (this has been my regimen for the period they have been in qt). Do I trust that all will go okay with an inexperienced hand, or transfer them back early?

[HumbleFish]

How many fish? What size QT? Have you completed treatment? What did you go fallow for? Ich?

[kenith]

How many fish? What size QT? Have you completed treatment? What did you go fallow for? Ich?


Fallow for ich. 4 fishes- Achilles, chevron, female zebra angel and purple tang. All housed in a 29 gal. Tank transfer method and been doing that method now just to keep water pristine.

On the 4th day, sometimes 5th, I'll completely change out water. Problem is the prime in the morning, feeding daily, and water changes will have to be done on the same regimen

[HumbleFish]

Fallow for ich. 4 fishes- Achilles, chevron, female zebra angel and purple tang. All housed in a 29 gal. Tank transfer method and been doing that method now just to keep water pristine.

On the 4th day, sometimes 5th, I'll completely change out water. Problem is the prime in the morning, feeding daily, and water changes will have to be done on the same regimen

You're in a tough spot. I prefer 10 weeks fallow for Ich. According to the sticky, 9 weeks gives you a 99.7% chance of eradication; 6 weeks 95%.

Being you said all you have is someone inexperienced to tank sit for you, I would put the fish back in the DT before you leave. It's the lesser of two evils. They would likely die of ammonia poisoning in two weeks time without a WC or two.

[kenith]

You're in a tough spot. I prefer 10 weeks fallow for Ich. According to the sticky, 9 weeks gives you a 99.7% chance of eradication; 6 weeks 95%.

Being you said all you have is someone inexperienced to tank sit for you, I would put the fish back in the DT before you leave. It's the lesser of two evils. They would likely die of ammonia poisoning in two weeks time without a WC or two.


Tell me about it. Risk infection (and most likely I am in the 5% chance of ich still present) or risk water change issues/fouling water issues/feeding issues/ect. I'm gone total 12 days which means 3 tank changes and 12 consecutive days of feeding and priming. Decisions....

[Mrscribbled]

Why does your qt not have an established filter and why are all those fish, especially an Achilles in a 29 ? 12 weeks is the minimum fallow I'd go with ich. If it were me I'd cancel the vaccation but I'm not much for vacation anyways.


Posted from ReefCentral.com App for Android

[Mrscribbled]

Your best option would be to get a large tub or borrow a tank, get an established filter via bottled bacteria or another system so ammonia doesn't kill the fish. Have the care taker feed every other day if not 3. keep lighting to 4 hours a day


Posted from ReefCentral.com App for Android

[kenith]

Why does your qt not have an established filter and why are all those fish, especially an Achilles in a 29 ? 12 weeks is the minimum fallow I'd go with ich. If it were me I'd cancel the vaccation but I'm not much for vacation anyways.


Posted from ReefCentral.com App for Android


Got these fish on a last minute note from another member. I did not have time for establishing a qt (I did not plan on getting any fish for some time, but I did). Cancel is not an option.

[Mrscribbled]

You could have had an established filter by now and still can. Instant ocean bio spira or Dr. Tims one and only. I've used this method countless times in qt.


Posted from ReefCentral.com App for Android

[kenith]

Your best option would be to get a large tub or borrow a tank, get an established filter via bottled bacteria or another system so ammonia doesn't kill the fish. Have the care taker feed every other day if not 3. keep lighting to 4 hours a day


Posted from ReefCentral.com App for Android

Bottle bacteria won't cycle a tank within 2 weeks. I would not trust anyone's filter to be disease free.

[Mrscribbled]

If you were doing tank transfer I'm assuming you have two tanks? split the fish up and get two filters going.


Posted from ReefCentral.com App for Android

[Mrscribbled]

Have you used Instant ocean bio spira? It will cycle a tank in less than 48 hours. Nitrites will take 6 days to go down but ammonia will not be an issue after 48 hours lightly stocked.


Posted from ReefCentral.com App for Android

[wooden_reefer]

There is a chance that when you come back the fish is not quite yet dead but ich infestation has returned.

It generally takes a week at least, from presence to deadly.

In many cases, from very low presence to wipeout is more than one lifecycle of ich. First lifecycle achieves significant presence, then the next generation of ich becomes deadly.

Therefore, one option is to start a cycle in a separate container now.

This is really a special kind of contigency plan that I generally have.

This is a chance for you to appreciate how utterly easy cycling is; you do not have to check anything if the situation does not allow you to.

[wooden_reefer]

This is another con against TT

I do not take vacation during QT, but my job takes me away for a week or so with little warning.

I ask my neigbor to take are of my tanks during QT when I am away, just as usual care of feeding. He has to do very little more than other times. Adding straight copper is very easy. The good thing about straight copper is that it does not build up easily.

With cheleated copper, he may not have to do anything extra at all, just feed them as usual. Just that I do not use cheleated copper.

[wooden_reefer]

Also, if you already have infestation in DT and have to wait for a long fallow period to expire, certainly do NOT use the TT method.

[Mrscribbled]

Also, if you already have infestation in DT and have to wait for a long fallow period to expire, certainly do NOT use the TT method.



From what I've gathered, the display is in fallow due to an outbreak and during the TT more fish were purchased. No filter is established in the current tank the fish are housed, and does not believe that in 2 weeks time a filter can be established, when in fact it can. Weather in the current qt or separate container.



Posted from ReefCentral.com App for Android

[wooden_reefer]

From what I've gathered, the display is in fallow due to an outbreak and during the TT more fish were purchased. No filter is established in the current tank the fish are housed, and does not believe that in 2 weeks time a filter can be established, when in fact it can. Weather in the current qt or separate container.



Posted from ReefCentral.com App for Android

Just not having a cycled QT to eradicate ich at step one is bad.

Not knowing to cycle ASAP after calamity has taken place is even worse.

A cycle takes four weeks. Fallow period is 12 weeks. the difference is eight weeks of WC, exposure to ammonia, and more stress.

As soon as infestation in DT is detected, and you do not have cycled QT, cycle ASAP. Better late than never.

[wooden_reefer]

After a few years in the early 80's, I already started to appreciate how utterly easy cycling is.

I used livestock to cycle only once c 1980, the first time. Then I at once wondered why I had to do this strange thing.

I had studied some basic "Biology of Mirco-organisms", that was the course was named in college in the late 70's. I have forgotten most but retain just enough for this hobby.

Cycling is very very easy and very very simply. Do it.

[wooden_reefer]

Also, if you already have infestation in DT and have to wait for a long fallow period to expire, certainly do NOT use the TT method.

Or you can start a cycle ASAP and use the cycled medium after TT while you wait for fellow period to expire.

The OP should have done so.

[kenith]

If you were doing tank transfer I'm assuming you have two tanks? split the fish up and get two filters going.


Posted from ReefCentral.com App for Android

I do have two tanks, both are being occupied for tank transfers and cleaning in between time.

Have you used Instant ocean bio spira? It will cycle a tank in less than 48 hours. Nitrites will take 6 days to go down but ammonia will not be an issue after 48 hours lightly stocked.


Posted from ReefCentral.com App for Android

From what I understand, all of the bacterial strains in a bottle are mostly dead and do not cycle that fast. I could be wrong though.

This is another con against TT

I do not take vacation during QT, but my job takes me away for a week or so with little warning.

I ask my neigbor to take are of my tanks during QT when I am away, just as usual care of feeding. He has to do very little more than other times. Adding straight copper is very easy. The good thing about straight copper is that it does not build up easily.

With cheleated copper, he may not have to do anything extra at all, just feed them as usual. Just that I do not use cheleated copper.

I have done copper qt in the past, however, the angel would not have faired well in copper. Also the achilles infection spread rather quickly and the tank transfer relieved his ich infestation rather quickly.

Also, if you already have infestation in DT and have to wait for a long fallow period to expire, certainly do NOT use the TT method.

TT got these fish better within 8-10 days rather than copper's 3 week fix

From what I've gathered, the display is in fallow due to an outbreak and during the TT more fish were purchased. No filter is established in the current tank the fish are housed, and does not believe that in 2 weeks time a filter can be established, when in fact it can. Weather in the current qt or separate container.


Posted from ReefCentral.com App for Android

I think my next course of action is to hopefully cycle a 40 breeder and transfer all fish to that tank.

Just not having a cycled QT to eradicate ich at step one is bad.

Not knowing to cycle ASAP after calamity has taken place is even worse.

A cycle takes four weeks. Fallow period is 12 weeks. the difference is eight weeks of WC, exposure to ammonia, and more stress.

As soon as infestation in DT is detected, and you do not have cycled QT, cycle ASAP. Better late than never.

Or you can start a cycle ASAP and use the cycled medium after TT while you wait for fellow period to expire.

The OP should have done so.

I have had a rather large piece of live rock (about the size of a 5 gal bucket) and some bio balls cycling in a separate container with a heater and powerhead for about 3 weeks. Tonight I tested the water and the results were .25 ammonia and 0.5 nitrite. I am not sure how else to speed up this cycling, but nature is taking its course. This rock was previously live and dried up for about 4 months before I started this cycling.

Thanks so far for all of your help. I hope I can leave with more confidence than previously anticipated.

[kenith]

another issue is to cycle enough media to handle 4 fish, not to mention they are rather messy eaters!

[wooden_reefer]

Cycling the QT well and using hypo or copper is the slower but easier and less work intensive method than TT. Basically the former should last at least 8 weeks.

When you leave behind the issue of ultimate effectiveness and the issue of increased chance of bacterial infection, such is the feature of each method.

The cycle QT method also get rid of most ick quickly. There is reason to believe that it is faster in symtom relief than TT, which uses no drug. Some state that copper has no effective on ich already on fish, but I think this is not true.

Since you have to take the vacation, the only choice is between leaving fish in QT that is not cycled (even with the doubtfully half cycled rock) and returning them to DT earlier than ideal.

From what I gather, I believe returning them to the DT in less time (7 weeks) then most desirable is better than leaving them in uncycled QT. The chance of ammonia harm is greater than the risk of ick.

As I have said, even if ick returns, there is also a very good chance that ich infestation will not yet be serious enough to kill your fish within two weeks of the fish in DT.

You should plan to have to treat your fish at once when you come back. For this reason, you should start a cycle now in a separate container.

Read the thread "another lesson learned" closeby. There, I outlined the procedure to start a cycle with good circulation, aeration, warmth, bacteria seed, and pulses of ammonia.

The pulses of ammonia can be shrimp blended into milk, or at least very finely chopped. Use a small shrimp for each 20 gals of water. Forget about removing any shrimp, let what you put in decay entirely. (use a fraction of a small shrimp for less than 20 gals of water) . Add one pulse at day 1, and every five days twice. Three pulses for the cycle. If you are leaving soon, double pulse on the day you leave.

If ich had broken out when you return, you can use TT and in one to two more weeks the cycle will be advanced to the point that the medium can be used in QT, after rinsing with clean salt water of the same salinity.

If ich broken out later when the cycle is complete, you can choice to give up on the TT method and use the slower method to eradicate ich.

[Mrscribbled]

I know for a fact bio spira works, I've used it countless times setting up new display and qt tanks. It would be easy for yiu to try it .

If you want to put it to the test for yourself take a container of some sort that you can hang a filter on or place a large sponge filter in. using ocean level salt and a temp of 83 degrees. Add straight ammonia choride till 3ppm is reached. typically 2 to 3 days this will be at zero. After that dose more chloride every 2 days simulating the bio load of the fish. You'll have an established filter ready for all your fish by vacation time. This along with minimum feeding your problems will be less stressfull. Make sure the bio spira is less than 6 months old. It is indeed live natural nitrafying bacteria. Products like stability and microbacter 7 are a different bacteria that do not colonize long term. Just last week I had more fish than expected arrive so I set up a sterile 20 gallon, new sponge filter, added a 3 inch blueface angle and a bottle of bio spira. Ammonia peaked at .2ppm for 12 hours, salifert kit. Nitrites were detectable at 18 hours. By day 5 nitrates were at 10ppm. Ammonia and nitrites 0.


Posted from ReefCentral.com App for Android

[HumbleFish]

I know for a fact bio spira works, I've used it countless times setting up new display and qt tanks. It would be easy for yiu to try it .

Interesting; I haven't thought of bio spira in years. When you do this for a QT, do your pour the bio spira into the tank or directly over the media (i.e. sponge) you intend to use to harbor the bacteria?

[kenith]

Make sure the bio spira is less than 6 months old.


How can one make sure of this? Do they print their dates on the bottle?

[Mrscribbled]

yes dates are printed. Going straight through Dr. Tims website is best. He guarantees the product.


Posted from ReefCentral.com App for Android

[SloppyWhenWet]

How do you cycle water properly? Time period?

[Mrscribbled]

How do you cycle water properly? Time period?



Water does not cycle.



Posted from ReefCentral.com App for Android

[wooden_reefer]

I know for a fact bio spira works, I've used it countless times setting up new display and qt tanks. It would be easy for yiu to try it .

If you want to put it to the test for yourself take a container of some sort that you can hang a filter on or place a large sponge filter in. using ocean level salt and a temp of 83 degrees. Add straight ammonia choride till 3ppm is reached. typically 2 to 3 days this will be at zero. After that dose more chloride every 2 days simulating the bio load of the fish. You'll have an established filter ready for all your fish by vacation time. This along with minimum feeding your problems will be less stressfull. Make sure the bio spira is less than 6 months old. It is indeed live natural nitrafying bacteria. Products like stability and microbacter 7 are a different bacteria that do not colonize long term. Just last week I had more fish than expected arrive so I set up a sterile 20 gallon, new sponge filter, added a 3 inch blueface angle and a bottle of bio spira. Ammonia peaked at .2ppm for 12 hours, salifert kit. Nitrites were detectable at 18 hours. By day 5 nitrates were at 10ppm. Ammonia and nitrites 0.


Posted from ReefCentral.com App for Android

You don't have to have bioballs or Dr Tim.

Cycling is basically an extremely easy thing. Very easy and very cheap.

Source of bacteria, source of ammonia, and type of suitable medium for bacteria growth are all plentiful and very cheap.

There should not be any commercial possibility in cycling and nitrification biological filtration. As long as the earth spins bacteria will grow under very easily achieved conditions.

Nitrification is a massive process globally. Any time any lives end and decay, and live on by excretion, there will be nitrification of some sort, in soil or aquatic substrates of all kinds.

[wooden_reefer]

How do you cycle water properly? Time period?

It is not the water that is cycled; it is NOT even a tank that is cycled, even this is spoken frequently.

it is the medium onto which bacteria live that is cycled. It is best to think this way.

In the DT, the idea of cycling the tank and cycling the medium is often in common. For the QT, it is best to always think of cycling the medium, not cycling the QT tank.

[wooden_reefer]

7 week fallow period is not so short that the chance that all ich is gone is low; in fact, I believe it is not low, just not high enough as usual recomendation.

I believe what you need is a contigency plan, so you cycle in advance.

Even if I don't go on vacation and went 12 weeks fallow, it is still best to have a contigency plan for six months after the last introduction of any livestock of uncertain ich status.

[shaka]

I would gamble and put the fish back into your DT.

I realize that you have a very beautiful and EXPENSIVE collection of fish but I think risking them for 2 weeks in a 29 gallon uncycled quarantine tank at the hands of an inexperienced person is riskier than putting them back in the DT. Either option is bad but I think they'll be better in the DT. You have let it run fallow for 7 weeks which is good. Just be prepared that you might have to treat them again when you get back.

Keeping them in cramped quarters where their aggresiveness will increase while the water quality will decrease is riskier, in my opinion, than putting back in your DT.

[kenith]

I would gamble and put the fish back into your DT.

I realize that you have a very beautiful and EXPENSIVE collection of fish but I think risking them for 2 weeks in a 29 gallon uncycled quarantine tank at the hands of an inexperienced person is riskier than putting them back in the DT. Either option is bad but I think they'll be better in the DT. You have let it run fallow for 7 weeks which is good. Just be prepared that you might have to treat them again when you get back.

Keeping them in cramped quarters where their aggresiveness will increase while the water quality will decrease is riskier, in my opinion, than putting back in your DT.

I have been dosing some of zeovit bacteria that was in my fridge to try and boost/quicken the cycle. For now, I am going to monitor how that live rock is doing cycle wise.

Another option is to setup a fish only tank plumbed into the dt's sump, so that if there's ich when I get back, it will be very easy to remove the fish in qt again. I wonder if I plumb the return through a uv sterilizer first, will it eradicate any possibility of ich getting into the temp holding tank.

[wooden_reefer]

I have been dosing some of zeovit bacteria that was in my fridge to try and boost/quicken the cycle. For now, I am going to monitor how that live rock is doing cycle wise.

Another option is to setup a fish only tank plumbed into the dt's sump, so that if there's ich when I get back, it will be very easy to remove the fish in qt again. I wonder if I plumb the return through a uv sterilizer first, will it eradicate any possibility of ich getting into the temp holding tank.

1. UV sized for bacteria is not effective against ich.

2. The flow thru UV has to be slow, slower than most uninitiated would likely think. I think about 5-8 gph per watt is about right. So either a bypass or a separate dedicated small pump is needed.

The UV is very useful in disease control of fish in general.

[kenith]

1. UV sized for bacteria is not effective against ich.

2. The flow thru UV has to be slow, slower than most uninitiated would likely think. I think about 5-8 gph per watt is about right. So either a bypass or a separate dedicated small pump is needed.

The UV is very useful in disease control of fish in general.


So a likely option to buy me time would be a uv serilizer of the appropriate size and flow would eradicate any possible chance of ich going into the temp setup? The plan is to run a tank right by sump with a seperate pump dedicated for that tank, but with a uv serilizer or two run that flows into the temp tank, which then drains back into the sump. This idea would allow me to have the ammonia/nitrite issues taken care of and if the chance the ich is still present and got around the sterilizers, I would be able to get the fish out quickly.

[wooden_reefer]

So a likely option to buy me time would be a uv serilizer of the appropriate size and flow would eradicate any possible chance of ich going into the temp setup? The plan is to run a tank right by sump with a seperate pump dedicated for that tank, but with a uv serilizer or two run that flows into the temp tank, which then drains back into the sump. This idea would allow me to have the ammonia/nitrite issues taken care of and if the chance the ich is still present and got around the sterilizers, I would be able to get the fish out quickly.

UV of ordinary size is unlikely to be effective against ich. I have used 15 watt UV in 20 gal QT and had no effect on ich.

Ich is not the only concern in disease control. The UV quite significantly reduces the incidents and seriousness of external bacterial infection, fin rot body rot etc. Hope it won't happen to you this time.

Bacterial infection per se is serious, but treatment against bacterial infection often requires the use of antibiotics that harm nitrificatiion bacteria. This throws a monkey wrench into the set up of very well cycled medium for QT to eradicate ich. But fortunately many antibiotics don't completely wipeout nitrification bacteria, and also the use of antibiotics is for only a few days, not a few weeks, so WC is more bearable and less expensive than to eradicate ich without nitrification. This is also why the nitrification bacteria in a QT is better removable and put back easily. why LR is not good for QT.

[triggreef]

So a likely option to buy me time would be a uv serilizer of the appropriate size and flow would eradicate any possible chance of ich going into the temp setup? The plan is to run a tank right by sump with a seperate pump dedicated for that tank, but with a uv serilizer or two run that flows into the temp tank, which then drains back into the sump. This idea would allow me to have the ammonia/nitrite issues taken care of and if the chance the ich is still present and got around the sterilizers, I would be able to get the fish out quickly.

I like this option C... Like u said, worst case they get ich, at least you can get them out w/o breaking down your tank again. Just use a small siphon to feed their tank & create an overflow to the sump. Done. You dont need a ton of flow, just enough to keep the water changing.

[kenith]

Thanks all for your help. I'm happy to report that I put the qt'd fishes in after the 9 week fallow period and they are happy and ICH FREE! My helpers were given detailed instructions how to care for the fishes while I was away.


I made up three bins of premixed salt water heated to proper temperature and every third day, they did the water changes. Fed and primed daily, all worked out great! :bounce3: