Swallowing my pride ...... what's wrong with my tank

[Merfin70]

I've got a 65 shallow reef tank that's been running for going on 3 years now. I started out with all SPS but somewhere around the 1.5 year mark experienced a gradual decline/STN/RTN of my SPS. I'll admit that I slacked in my upkeep at times so figured that my water quality suffered and that's what caused my issue.

In case it's helpful in tracking the problem, throughout the SPS decline my (3) clams (a now giant derasa and 2 maxima) were thriving.

I decided that perhaps SPS were too hard for me given the amount of time I'm able to devote to upkeep so simplified the tank to go LPS, Z&P and softies. At various times I've tried adding various LPS, Z&P, Softies and Amemones but nearly all decline within 2-3 weeks of being in the tank. I've tried Xenia, Zoas, Palys, RBTA, GBTA, Hammers, Frogspawn, Duncans and a Gigantea Carpet Anemone.

Everyone has withered and died except (4) RBTA, an ugly colony of green zoas and the Giganeta. All along my (3) clams continue to grow and thrive. The derasa especially is 4-5 times the size as when I purchased it.

I'm confused in that the clams, anemones and especially the Gigantea are supposed to be "hard to keep". And yet they are doing fine. As a note, I tried many of the LPS, Softies, etc before I had so many amemones in the tank so I was discounting chemical warfare but who knows.

Parms as I know that will be everyone's 1st question:

SG 1.026
Ca 400
Alk 9
Nitrates 5
Phosphate 0.01
Mag 1,300 (been a while since I've tested this though)

Algae - I have some green "film" algae on some of the rocks and sandbed so I know the tank is not extra clean but it's not aggressive or invasive. I just vac it off during the weekly water change.

Here are some things I've been thinking of:

1) Copper or other metal in the tank ? But them the Nems and Clams would suffer too, no ?
2) High Phosphates being consumed by algae. Couple of months ago I 3x my use of GFO but haven't noticed a change.
3) My lights are too powerful for LPS,Softies, Zoa and Palys ? Just recently I switched out (2) of my higher PAR Blue + bulbs for Actinics to see if that might help.

I've attached some previous pics of the tank so you can see that I'm not a complete novice. This tank was up for 3 years and my prior tank in NY was up for 4 years.

Any idea why 80% of the stuff I put in the tank is dead within 2-4 weeks ?

http://i508.photobucket.com/albums/s330/merfin70/65g%20Shallow%20Rimless/P1300737.jpg

http://i508.photobucket.com/albums/s330/merfin70/65g%20Shallow%20Rimless/PC292204.jpg

Super bleached Gigantea when I first got it. It doesn't look like this any more.
http://i508.photobucket.com/albums/s330/merfin70/IMG_7412.jpg

Now (sorry for the iPhone pic but it's pretty barren so you're not missing much)

http://i508.photobucket.com/albums/s330/merfin70/9DF9F258-2962-48BA-A430-0893F0A511B6-3439-00000210B1870882.jpg

http://i508.photobucket.com/albums/s330/merfin70/16445519-1218-420A-A095-EDE1AFBE8C2A-3439-00000210BD30A77A.jpg

[bertoni]

Hmm, that's a tough question. You could try running a PolyFilter for a bit. It'll turn blue in the presence of much copper.

If the algae are consuming the phosphate, that's just fine for corals.

I might check into chemical warfare more. Anything within touching distance of the BTAs is likely to be killed fairly quickly. Carbon sometimes helps with chemical warfare.

Is the cone skimmer in the tank in question? Just making sure.

[Bilk]

What do you use to check salinity?

[kdog420000]

Following along. I seem to be having some of the exact same issues

[Tuscaquatics]

Ya, first things first, if you already haven't, check your test equipment. Could be a number way off somehow.

[DarthSimon]

I had a very similar issue to yours.
I had high nitrates, awful lighting and way over fed my tank..

I had the first gen Chinease LEDs... They were awful... My corals would open yes, but that's it. Survive but not thrive.


2nd I didn't do water changes nearly enough. I was slacking and doing then every 2-3 months...

Third, way to much feeding!!

So here is how I changed my reef around!!

Upgraded lights... 3 Radions Gen2's!!
Feed 1/4 of what I used too!!

And most important, weekly water changes with high quality salt. Red Sea Pro..

My corals are thriving now!!
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/03/04/u5u9y7et.jpg
Above is a few lps.... Before lps would never open like that, they would Shrivel up and die within 3 weeks...

I understand the Lighting upgrade was expensive, but well worth it IMHO...
I also installed a full Apex Neptune System... Amazing stuff, great control....


Do you have an RODI unit and do you do frequent water changes??
Good luck!!
Steve

[pscott99]

I could write almost the same post as DarthSimon. After 3 years better salt, more water changes, lower temp ( 77-78 ) less feeding. Fish and clam have survived it all. Now my corals are happy too. Soon new tank and new led's for me. Changing parms in a small tank causes havic.

[DarthSimon]

I have written similar posts on this forum. I couldn't keep any LPS or greater coral alive. I tried BioPellet Reactor, Nitrate Denateator, vodka, better lights... What really turned it around for me is water changes... Weekly!! It's a must!! I was always lazy and hated driving to the lfs to get water..

I sucked it up and installed an RODI unit in my garage , 2 55 gallon brute containers , one for salt, one for fresh!! Tunze Auto TopOff in fresh, and the salt container always has 1.026 Red Sea Pro ready to go...

Takes me 7 minutes to drain 50 gallons out and 10 minutes to pump back up... 20 minutes and done!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TwNW3xupicI&list=UUTkfk1cklRo6Wpg48zxRExw&index=1

Here is my tank... Notice the skeleton of the Wellso Brain on the bottom at the start... That was from like 6 months ago before I made all these changes...

[Merfin70]

Hmm, that's a tough question. You could try running a PolyFilter for a bit. It'll turn blue in the presence of much copper.

If the algae are consuming the phosphate, that's just fine for corals.

I might check into chemical warfare more. Anything within touching distance of the BTAs is likely to be killed fairly quickly. Carbon sometimes helps with chemical warfare.

Is the cone skimmer in the tank in question? Just making sure.

Thanks Bertoni. I've run 5 PolyFilters over the past couple of months with no major change. They didn't turn blue so I guess that's a good thing. I've been thinking about running carbon again. I used to run 50/50 carbon and GFO in a BRS dual reactor. I thought perhaps my problem was Phosphates so I got rid of the carbon and doubled up on the GFO. Doesn't seem to have made much difference so I will add the carbon layer back in.

The cone skimmer is indeed still running in this tank. Here's a question I've wondered about for a while. How much skimmate should I be producing each week. I get maybe 3/4 of a cup. Perhaps I am skimming too dry ?

What do you use to check salinity?

Refractometer. Calibrate every month or so. Just checked it a couple of weeks ago with my reference solution and it was fine.

Ya, first things first, if you already haven't, check your test equipment. Could be a number way off somehow.

I took a water sample to my LFS for a full test run and their numbers were generally the same as mine. They use different test kits but the differences weren't crazy off.

I had a very similar issue to yours.
I had high nitrates, awful lighting and way over fed my tank..

I had the first gen Chinease LEDs... They were awful... My corals would open yes, but that's it. Survive but not thrive.


2nd I didn't do water changes nearly enough. I was slacking and doing then every 2-3 months...

Third, way to much feeding!!

So here is how I changed my reef around!!

Upgraded lights... 3 Radions Gen2's!!
Feed 1/4 of what I used too!!

And most important, weekly water changes with high quality salt. Red Sea Pro..

My corals are thriving now!!
Above is a few lps.... Before lps would never open like that, they would Shrivel up and die within 3 weeks...

I understand the Lighting upgrade was expensive, but well worth it IMHO...
I also installed a full Apex Neptune System... Amazing stuff, great control....


Do you have an RODI unit and do you do frequent water changes??
Good luck!!
Steve

Steve - I run an ATI Sunpower with mainly ATI bulbs so pretty much the top of the line lighting as far as T5s are concerned. I do a 5 gallon water change every week. I know it's not really 10% of my total water volume, probably more like 5%-7%. Maybe that's something I could improve. I feed one "pinch" of Ocean Nutrition Prime Reef once a day. Would that be too much ? I have a good RODI unit for my top off and mix water and use Reef Crystals as my salt.

I have written similar posts on this forum. I couldn't keep any LPS or greater coral alive. I tried BioPellet Reactor, Nitrate Denateator, vodka, better lights... What really turned it around for me is water changes... Weekly!! It's a must!! I was always lazy and hated driving to the lfs to get water..

I sucked it up and installed an RODI unit in my garage , 2 55 gallon brute containers , one for salt, one for fresh!! Tunze Auto TopOff in fresh, and the salt container always has 1.026 Red Sea Pro ready to go...

Takes me 7 minutes to drain 50 gallons out and 10 minutes to pump back up... 20 minutes and done!!

Here is my tank... Notice the skeleton of the Wellso Brain on the bottom at the start... That was from like 6 months ago before I made all these changes...

What % of your total water volume are you changing each week ? I do about 5%-7% of my total water volume weekly as a water change. Too little ?

Thanks all for the suggestions or questions. I really appreciate it.

[DarthSimon]

I change about 20% of my water volume... Weekly... My corals are exploding from this and the other factors I changed..

[DarthSimon]

So your feeding flake food Dailey? How many fish do you have in this 65?

[givinggoodwill]

carbon is a necessity in a mixed reef IMO.

[Merfin70]

So your feeding flake food Dailey? How many fish do you have in this 65?

Yes, pinch of flake daily. Good question on my stocking, perhaps I have too many fish for the 65 gallon? I have a Yellow Tang, Ornate Wrasse, 2x Picasso Clowns, Blue Damsel, Coral Beauty Angel so 6 fish in total.

[Joe0813]

maybe your coral beauty is nipping your corals and irritating them to the point they die

[tmz]

Tough question indeed. Sorry for your losses. I went through a period of time about 6 years ago when corals waned.;not quite as drasticly though. Turned out I had high tds post the di cansiter;due to poorly seated ro membrane letting high tds water through using up the resin quickly. I was also slow on changing out carbon and water changes too and let alk bounce around a little. So , I'm really not sure whatthe issue was. Nitrates wer higherthan yours too. ARe yuo sure about teh PO4 level. H
ow did you test it?

It could be a total organic carbon buildup ;unfortunately; you can't really meausr that.
I'd probably go with rox carbon or another quality carbon ,hevy skimming and frequent small water changes( say 5 or 6 at 15% over the course of a week or two. Oddly, my clams did well through it;so I don't think it was metal.
What carbon were you using btw. What salt mix? How old is the sand bed?

[DarthSimon]

Coral beauty could be a problem...

[Ebisan]

I can relate. I also slacked in my tank's upkeep and it suffered for it with GHA and cyano during the last couple of years. Recently though I decided to help regain my tank's original glory. Got a new RODI system to replace my old one, reinstalled my GFO reactor, cleaned my skimmer since it started to underperform, started doing weekly or twice weekly water changes, using a turkey baster on the rocks and sandbed to disperse the detritus, changed my light bulbs, went to 24hr lights on in the fuge, and replenished my cleaning crew by adding more snails and hermits. I think all contributed to the turnaround in the tank. The GHA and cyano are down to about 20% from a month ago. The cleaning crew is doing wonders to the left over stuff and my sand bed is now white again (except for a few spots).

[bnumair]

I have similar issue I fact I posted some facts I my forum "calling all chemists". I have every gadget reactor tool u name it but couldn't keep corals alive more than few weeks. My problems were as follows:

1. Vegas not putting out enough par. Set 9" above water line should be 4 to 6. Intensities set at 30 which was hardly any par now set at 80.
2. Bad sulfur media In denitrator. Took it out replaced with biopellets.
3. Pieces of Styrofoam used inside the tank to keep sea swirls in place had aluminum sheet on one side. Went un noticed. Took them out too.

After doing these 3 things. Along with several 30 gal water changes I have successfully been able to keep 1 birds nest and 2 acro frags alive and thriving a d keeping colors and polyp extensions.
Hope it helps.

[Merfin70]

maybe your coral beauty is nipping your corals and irritating them to the point they die

I've never seen him nip. Can't say as I always have an eye on him but he's been well behaved so far.

Tough question indeed. Sorry for your losses. I went through a period of time about 6 years ago when corals waned.;not quite as drasticly though. Turned out I had high tds post the di cansiter;due to poorly seated ro membrane letting high tds water through using up the resin quickly. I was also slow on changing out carbon and water changes too and let alk bounce around a little. So , I'm really not sure whatthe issue was. Nitrates wer higherthan yours too. ARe yuo sure about teh PO4 level. H
ow did you test it?

It could be a total organic carbon buildup ;unfortunately; you can't really meausr that.
I'd probably go with rox carbon or another quality carbon ,hevy skimming and frequent small water changes( say 5 or 6 at 15% over the course of a week or two. Oddly, my clams did well through it;so I don't think it was metal.
What carbon were you using btw. What salt mix? How old is the sand bed?

I'll check my TDS again as it's been a bit but my filters and membrane is less than 1 year old. I change them pretty regularly at the 1 year mark. I haven't used carbon in a couple of months but when I did it was the ROX carbon from BRS. For Salt, I use Reef Crystals. The sand bed is original to the tank so 3 years old now.

I have similar issue I fact I posted some facts I my forum "calling all chemists". I have every gadget reactor tool u name it but couldn't keep corals alive more than few weeks. My problems were as follows:

1. Vegas not putting out enough par. Set 9" above water line should be 4 to 6. Intensities set at 30 which was hardly any par now set at 80.
2. Bad sulfur media In denitrator. Took it out replaced with biopellets.
3. Pieces of Styrofoam used inside the tank to keep sea swirls in place had aluminum sheet on one side. Went un noticed. Took them out too.

After doing these 3 things. Along with several 30 gal water changes I have successfully been able to keep 1 birds nest and 2 acro frags alive and thriving a d keeping colors and polyp extensions.
Hope it helps.

How have you found the Biopellets ? Been thinking of trying those as a potential solution assuming that nutrients are my problem. Do you like them ?

[bnumair]

i like biopellets better than sulfur. i am still in initial stages 1 month old so i cant say much. i already had 0 nitrates due to denitrator so my experience is little. but it has kept the nitrates still 0.

[D2838]

Just reading along, someone mentioned DOC, I'm agreeing with this. Fits well with your SPS decline at the 1.5 year mark. The stuff you have can probably tolerate slightly higher DOC, at least we know the clams and BTA can, the carpet nem is a little bit of a surprise to me but I'm not real familiar with them. Didn't see what the flow of your return pump was, I had similar problems except I was totally over run with hair algae and doubled the tank turnover, got the waste out of the tank before it could settle into sand and rocks and instead into sump where skimmer could get it and upgraded my crappy skimmer(not saying yours is). Anytime I see a tang in a small tank I'm thinking DOC, those things are poop machines. First person to make a DOC test for this hobby is going to make a killing.

[bertoni]

I might try skimming a little wetter. It's cheap to do, and might help.

A DOC test would be great, but I'm not holding my breath.