ich (first timer)

[saltychick]

Ugh Foxface has ich. I know everyone has their own opinion about this disease and there is quite a lot of information on this site alone. I'm wondering if I should qt the Foxface alone and then the puffer and goat fish separately as they are showing no sign oof it. Or I should just treat them all together?
Also since i have a fowlr if I take out my sponges and inverts is there any way I can just treat the tank? How many water changes before I can put everything back in? Or is that totally not an option.
What medication is best used for this?
I guess we can just start with these questions for now. Thanks

[muppet]

In my opinion, as I'm currently (for the last 2 months) dealing with this: get all of the fish out and QT them together. Do some research and make sure they're all tolerant of copper treatment, which seems to be the most effective (although lots of people recommend hyposalinity). If you go the copper route, Cupramine seems to be the best tolerated and least toxic to fish.

Leave the tank fallow for at LEAST 8 weeks, possibly 9. If you do fewer than 8 weeks, chances are your fish will become reinfected. At 8 weeks you have something like a 99.7% chance of having eradicated all of the ich parasites, which have starved from lack of fish to host in.

Treating the main display tank is bad juju. Don't do that.

[muppet]

Do tons of water changes in the QT, test your copper levels daily or at least every other day, and when you do water changes, it's probably best to add the copper to the buckets before adding them to the tank, so that the level doesn't jump around. This requires a little math and care.

[saltychick]

i can not find if a goatfish has a copper sensitivity anyone know?

[muppet]

I can't find anything about goatfish specifically, so that's probably a good sign. You could try ramping up the copper dose more slowly than the bottle says, and keep a close eye on him.

Keep in mind that the fish's behavior in quarantine is going to naturally be a bit different than in the display, because the environment is different and they're stressed a bit.

[saltychick]

I am going to freshwater dip anyone done this before for ich?

[muppet]

Haven't tried it but its supposed to give the fish some quick improvement and relief. It won't wipe out the parasite in the tank or on all the fish though, you still have to QT.

[icycoral]

I've tried the fresh water dip. It didn't work, stressed out the fish, and by the time I finally accepted I was going to have to qt there were losses I feel I wouldn't have had if I just did a qt in the first place.

[saltychick]

I know I will qt and leave tank fallow for 9 weeks while fw dipping. Setting up qt as we speak

[muppet]

Stupid question but you know you can't leave the fish in freshwater for all 9 weeks right? :)

[Minkota]

Here's a good place to start

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-10/sp/feature/index.php



http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-08/sp/index.php



http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-10/sp/feature/index.php

[saltychick]

Stupid question but you know you can't leave the fish in freshwater for all 9 weeks right? :)

haha yes a few minutes at a time. thanks :)

[saltychick]

I've tried the fresh water dip. It didn't work, stressed out the fish, and by the time I finally accepted I was going to have to qt there were losses I feel I wouldn't have had if I just did a qt in the first place.

i havent added any new fish since the goat fish (over a month ago) dont know where this came from.

[muppet]

Puffers are sensitive to copper. Might want to go hypo. Just bring them back to normal very slowly after 14 days at 1.008 or so. .001 per day after treatment.

Fallow period still required of course.

[saltychick]

Puffers are sensitive to copper. Might want to go hypo. Just bring them back to normal very slowly after 14 days at 1.008 or so. .001 per day after treatment.

Fallow period still required of course.

this is why i decided against the copper. i appologise my mind is racing and i forgot to type it. i had a horrible day at work (litterally almost threw a cake at my boss's head) and then to come home to this. I am so stressed out that i might get sick now! :headwalls:

[Tweaked]

Sucks to hear Salty! I don't have experience with any of this, but as you have been over to the house before, I feel I should offer help. Let me know if I can help at all. I hate seeing fish ill or worse- dead. Came home yesterday to my Bartletts sitting under the halide on my overflow. Not kidding when I asked the wife if she cooked fish for lunch. Poor guy baked to death!

[saltychick]

from the link given above
The least tolerant fish are wrasses, lionfish, pufferfish, drumfish, hi-hats, jackknives, firefish and many of the scaleless fish as a rule (Calfo, pers. comm.). I also choose not to dip lionfish, foxfaces, or any other venomous fishes because I don't want a flying torpedo of spines to come shooting out of a dip bucket at me."

this is going to really suck

[muppet]

If I were you I'd do 2 weeks of hypo and forget the dips. But I'd do it REAL soon.

[triggreef]

I am going to freshwater dip anyone done this before for ich?

Haven't tried it but its supposed to give the fish some quick improvement and relief. It won't wipe out the parasite in the tank or on all the fish though, you still have to QT.

I've tried the fresh water dip. It didn't work, stressed out the fish, and by the time I finally accepted I was going to have to qt there were losses I feel I wouldn't have had if I just did a qt in the first place.

Forget about freshwater dipping! It does nothing for ich! It will just stress your fish more and most likely kill them. It DOES work for fast relief (not treatment) of flukes.

This comes from a TON of reading in the fish disease forum here and many other articles but I like to think I am a good judge of character and trust the right posters on this board.

I don't know what kind of puffer you have, but I just got done treating a dogface and I used cupramine as a precaution just to be sure the ich was all gone. I'm pretty sure it was all gone before I started because I did tank transfer method first off. Also had a flame go through everything he went through. ALOT of people here recommend dosing the cupramine very slowly and you shouldn't have an issue. I followed the standard dosage and didn't have an issue. I also have several new fish: a melanurus wrasse, mccoskers wrasse, 2 yellow wrasses, and a powder blue, kole, naso, hippo and yellow tang in qt right now with cupramine. The yellow tang had a lot of ich when I placed him in there and signs were gone in only a couple days after I started cupramine. They are all still eating like pigs as well.

Also, I have not lost any fish since treatment began, besides one juvi yellow wrasse that already had a very bad bacterial infection (blood streaks) and had stopped eating. And a flame hawk that jumped out of my transfer container straight into a bucket of bleach. Nothing I could do there. But be aware of your surroundings when moving fish around I guess. :hmm2:

[triggreef]

Also Hypo is very involved to do it right. And almost all my reading here has been negative reviews.

Tank transfer method I really like, but it is expensive (in making water) and very time consuming. I got messed up a couple times with it due to new water not heating up to temp fast enough to do the transfer at the right time. But I'm still pretty sure the fish were cured after I finished. Like I said I used cupramine just to be 100% sure.

Then I got impatient and added them back to the display too early after all that work, now I'm paranoid.

[triggreef]

And as far as where it came from... familiarize yourself with the ich life cycle. A lot of reading but I find it interesting. Anyway, it could have very well came from your last addition a month ago. That time frame is about right. You might see it more on the foxface only because they are more prone to it. Before you ever see it on the fish, it has already infected there gills which you won't see. That is where it hits first.

Also, ich forms cysts when it drops off the fish, on any hard surface or even macro algae. Each cyst then hatches out into hundreds of parasites. So you could have introduced it buying a frag, or even some cheato.

Qt for everything you buy is the only way to prevent.

[saltychick]

So yesterday when I came home from PETCO getting supplies for the qt, the spots were gone. I am starting to second guess my diagnosis. They were there for less than an hour. Fish is showing no signs of stress. No labored breathing. Gills aren't swollen or red whatsoever. Has a very healthy appetite. And is very active. I'm staring to think I jumped the gun here (I tend to do that a lot) . Maybe it was just detritus? I'm going to carefully observe them for the next 24 hours do a few water changes and tests see if anything is out of the ordinary. But for now I'm going to out this thread on hold. Thank you to all who chimed in I know this can be a touchy subject on the forums. Will keep you updated.

[FishWrangler]

I got my fingers crossed for you!

[Chriskid]

So yesterday when I came home from PETCO getting supplies for the qt, the spots were gone. I am starting to second guess my diagnosis. They were there for less than an hour. Fish is showing no signs of stress. No labored breathing. Gills aren't swollen or red whatsoever. Has a very healthy appetite. And is very active. I'm staring to think I jumped the gun here (I tend to do that a lot) . Maybe it was just detritus? I'm going to carefully observe them for the next 24 hours do a few water changes and tests see if anything is out of the ordinary. But for now I'm going to out this thread on hold. Thank you to all who chimed in I know this can be a touchy subject on the forums. Will keep you updated.

very commin thinkin its ick, and now gone... feed fresh food, make sure his or her home wuz not stolen( stress) . check parameters. looks to me like all is good:)

[muppet]

!!!!CAREFUL!!!!

Ich cysts will drop off the fish and the fish will look "better" but all that's happened is that the cysts have dropped to the bottom of the tank where they will hatch hundreds more parasites and reinfect all of your fish with a vengeance. This generally takes about 3 weeks, so 24 hours of observation won't do much for you.

You're taking a big risk if you don't QT, treat, and run fallow at this point. It's yours to take, but careful!!

[Phishguy]

Over the years I have changed my attitude towards ich.. In the beginning when I saw a sign of it I panicked and tore apart my tank chasing the yellow tang around.. It and my flame angel died from the stress.. I realized over time this causes more harm than helps.. I have adopted the approach of of letting it be.. I have found that the most important thing is low stress and ensure the fish is eating... In my experience, this will end the outbreak of the cysts. This does not mean ich is gone from the tank, but my fish rarely show any signs of it again... Sometimes introducing a new fish will bring it around but it's gone in a few days. I I look at it like it's a sickness that can be beaten.. If the fish is eating, I don't panic..

~Jon~

[Phishguy]

Ps... I haven't lost a single fish since using this approach... I may also just have been very lucky..

~Jon~

[muppet]

I dunno. Maybe I have a tank full of stressed out, fat, eating, lazily floating fish, but I didn't panic and start tearing my tank down until half my fish were sick or dead within two days of my new tang showing symptoms.

If I can erase it from my tank, I'd much rather do that than consider every new arrival a time bomb. QT'ing new arrivals won't help much if ich is in the tank waiting for stressed fish.

[Phishguy]

I dunno. Maybe I have a tank full of stressed out, fat, eating, lazily floating fish, but I didn't panic and start tearing my tank down until half my fish were sick or dead within two days of my new tang showing symptoms.

If I can erase it from my tank, I'd much rather do that than consider every new arrival a time bomb. QT'ing new arrivals won't help much if ich is in the tank waiting for stressed fish.

Like I said, I may have just been very lucky.. Every experience shapes our future behaviors.. Nothing wrong with taking the safest approach that you do..


~Jon~

[saltychick]

I'm not completely ignoring the fact that I could have it. But I would much rather not stress out the fish if possible. I read on wetweb that foxfaces "shed" and the new scales can build up under the old ones and cause bumps which most people mistake for large ich cysts. I also noticed my goatfish has this new thing where he throws the sand up and over instead of just sifting. And he might have very easily thrown some onto the foxface. So there were a few factors in my decision to wait.

[Chriskid]

over the years i have changed my attitude towards ich.. In the beginning when i saw a sign of it i panicked and tore apart my tank chasing the yellow tang around.. It and my flame angel died from the stress.. I realized over time this causes more harm than helps.. I have adopted the approach of of letting it be.. I have found that the most important thing is low stress and ensure the fish is eating... In my experience, this will end the outbreak of the cysts. This does not mean ich is gone from the tank, but my fish rarely show any signs of it again... Sometimes introducing a new fish will bring it around but it's gone in a few days. I i look at it like it's a sickness that can be beaten.. If the fish is eating, i don't panic..

~jon~

+1

[triggreef]

I'm not completely ignoring the fact that I could have it. But I would much rather not stress out the fish if possible. I read on wetweb that foxfaces "shed" and the new scales can build up under the old ones and cause bumps which most people mistake for large ich cysts. I also noticed my goatfish has this new thing where he throws the sand up and over instead of just sifting. And he might have very easily thrown some onto the foxface. So there were a few factors in my decision to wait.

This could very well be. I'm in about the same place after going fallow and having treated everything. I took a chance going fallow for only 8 weeks instead of the recommended 12. But my puffer has been hunting snails, stirring a ton of sand which at one point really looked to be ich on one of my clowns. but the spots were gone after only a couple hours so I presume it was sand. I'll still be watching though for sure, and like muppet said it could be a month before more spots appear.

You can look for other signs, like scratching/flashing on rock work, or very heavy breathing, hanging out near power heads, etc

[Tautog]

Get rid of the sand. It helps a lot, plus you can do whatever you wish for flow and can siphon every single piece of detritus out of the tank. Everyone has their own opinions, but what has worked for me is a bb and healthy fish. If they are healthy no outbreaks. I had ich wipeout everything but 2 fish 5 months ago. I did nothing. The strong two lived and I slowly added what I wanted, went back to bb and have bad no issues since. Be very careful selecting fish from any lfs. Take a look at not only what you are interested in, but every single fish that is in the same system. If one is sick looking, I won't buy. Good luck

[saltychick]

I'm very selective with fish (you can ask Collin it takes me about 20-30 mins after seeing it to decide) and thank you for the advice but bb isn't for me. My goatfish needs substrate. And I really don't like the look of it