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griseum
03/17/2013, 11:41 AM
I know that being true herbivores, the internal flora of a tangs digestive system is frequently damaged, usually being fatal, by exposure to copper based medications. Coppersafe is one of the prophylactic medications that i treat all newcomers with in QT. So with the addition of 2 tangs, i have them now in a QT that is offline from my main system, but that has no meds in it.
My macro algae tanks are in-line with the main system. In the past i have skipped QT and added purple tangs directly to these extremely biodiverse algae tanks with no parasite issues to date.

If the macro tanks plus a supplemented and very varied diet seems to be working, despite not QTing them apart from the main system, should i continue and use this practice? or am i dancing with the devil.

I can always Hospitalize a sick fish in a Hypo tank if it ever arises but i truly try to prevent the introduction of any Parasites into my system, even tho, I believe, 99.9% of all fish and aquariums have ich/parasites present and some time or another. Its the fishes health that prevents the spread.

Any ideas?

coral_lagoon
03/17/2013, 12:13 PM
IMO always quarantine. 3 to 4 weeks isn't going to hurt Tangs. I use a 29 gallon Q tank ,and use Cupramine ..:beer:

MrTuskfish
03/17/2013, 01:53 PM
I know that being true herbivores, the internal flora of a tangs digestive system is frequently damaged, usually being fatal.

Over many years, I've seen quite a few references to the possibility of copper killing tangs this way. I've never seen any dead tang that could be shown to have been definitely killed by Cu in their digestive system. In the time I've spent on the disease section of the forum; I've never seen such an event mentioned at all. But that sure doesn't mean I couldn't have missed it. IMO & IME: its simply a myth or at least a rarity., (like copper being absorbed by silicone or glass.) I know there are differences in copper products and I prefer Cupramine. This may, but probably doesn't, have something to do with the possible discrepancy.

I've dosed all new tangs with with Cupramine at the same rate as any fish for years. I also know, or know of,many hobbyists much more knowledgeable than I am, who treat all tangs with copper. IMO, all tangs handle Cu extremely well. I doubt if you could find a tang that hadn't been treated with copper somewhere along the way. Collectors, shippers, many wholesalers and retailers (Including DD, perhaps the best source of fish on the planet); run copper 24/7/365. I know this purely anecdotal; but I've kept many tangs for many years. many of the tangs I lost to Katrina, at least 10, most were close to 10 years old. I have about a dozen tangs now, most over 5-6 yrs, and all treated with Cupramine. BTW, tangs also eat a lot of meaty stuff as they graze. Pods, small shrimp & other crustaceans, etc.

Joe Lydon
03/17/2013, 02:21 PM
I've heard this many times, never saw any real supporting study though. I've never seen any dead tang that could be shown to have been definitely killed by Cu in their digestive system.

Just because you don't have "proof", doesn't make it untrue. Out of the millions of "mysterious" fish deaths, I am willing to bet nobody has come out of pocket a few hundred dollars for a necropsy for a fish they just lost money on. Cu is poison. At what concentrations and at what length of exposure does it becomes lethal, is absolutely up for debate. Even after it's all said and done, it still becomes a case by case basis.

Dmorty217
03/17/2013, 02:22 PM
Over many years, I've seen quite a few references to the possibility of copper killing tangs this way. I've never seen any dead tang that could be shown to have been definitely killed by Cu in their digestive system. In the time I've spent on the disease section of the forum; I've never seen such an event mentioned at all. But that sure doesn't mean I couldn't have missed it. IMO & IME: its simply a myth or at least a rarity., (like copper being absorbed by silicone or glass.) I know there are differences in copper products and I prefer Cupramine. This may, but probably doesn't, have something to do with the possible discrepancy.

I've dosed all new tangs with with Cupramine at the same rate as any fish for years. I also know, or know of,many hobbyists much more knowledgeable than I am, who treat all tangs with copper. IMO, all tangs handle Cu extremely well. I doubt if you could find a tang that hadn't been treated with copper somewhere along the way. Collectors, shippers, many wholesalers and retailers (Including DD, perhaps the best source of fish on the planet); run copper 24/7/365. I know this purely anecdotal; but I've kept many tangs for many years. many of the tangs I lost to Katrina, at least 10, most were close to 10 years old. I have about a dozen tangs now, most over 5-6 yrs, and all treated with Cupramine. BTW, tangs also eat a lot of meaty stuff as they graze. Pods, small shrimp & other crustaceans, etc.

+1000. IMO this is what I would do for success! :deadhorse:

MrTuskfish
03/17/2013, 02:43 PM
Just because you don't have "proof", doesn't make it untrue. Out of the millions of "mysterious" fish deaths, I am willing to bet nobody has come out of pocket a few hundred dollars for a necropsy for a fish they just lost money on. Cu is poison. At what concentrations and at what length of exposure does it becomes lethal, is absolutely up for debate. Even after it's all said and done, it still becomes a case by case basis.

Sure, just about everything in our hobby is still open to debate. But there are still lots of studies in many areas that influence or hobby; even when done by Grad School research. That's why most of my posts include an "IMO" or a "IME". My experience with Tangs and Cupramine has been very positive. One thing I would bet the farm on: more tangs are killed by ich (and other protozoan parasites) than the copper that could have prevented it. When ich looks like it has been the cause of death; I think its safe, the vast majority of the time, to assume the ich was the cause of death.

geaux xman
03/17/2013, 03:05 PM
Here's a complete list of tangs that I have over last 1.5yrs. All over a year ago, except for my sailfin.

achilles x2, pbt x2, blue tang, and sailfin. Treated all with .4-.5ppm cupramine for 3-4 weeks. All doing very well. I am pretty sure if I didnt QT all fish in cupramine, my tanks would be blown up with ich or some other disease with many casualties.

Mrscribbled
03/17/2013, 05:06 PM
No fish gets into my displays without copper treatment. Tangs, angles, rabbitfish, all have been labled copper sensitive but I've seen no ill effect.

Dmorty217
03/17/2013, 07:12 PM
I should be receiving a Achilles tang on Wednesday from LA that I will tank transfer for 2 weeks followed by prazipro, then cupramine. Fish will be in a QT or a minimum of 10 wks to get get fat and ensure health.

Yurivd
03/17/2013, 10:14 PM
You do not have to use copper. I only use the bucket transfer method to kill white spot. I do 5 days of formalin, 4 weeks of prazi and 8 days of bucket transfer method

Myka
06/21/2013, 10:08 PM
I refuse to own copper medication. Instead I use Chloroquine phosphate which is easier to use and the fish seem to tolerate it much better. Formalin dips are another preference over copper.

HumbleFish
06/21/2013, 10:40 PM
Over many years, I've seen quite a few references to the possibility of copper killing tangs this way. I've never seen any dead tang that could be shown to have been definitely killed by Cu in their digestive system. In the time I've spent on the disease section of the forum; I've never seen such an event mentioned at all. But that sure doesn't mean I couldn't have missed it. IMO & IME: its simply a myth or at least a rarity., (like copper being absorbed by silicone or glass.) I know there are differences in copper products and I prefer Cupramine. This may, but probably doesn't, have something to do with the possible discrepancy.

I've dosed all new tangs with with Cupramine at the same rate as any fish for years. I also know, or know of,many hobbyists much more knowledgeable than I am, who treat all tangs with copper. IMO, all tangs handle Cu extremely well. I doubt if you could find a tang that hadn't been treated with copper somewhere along the way. Collectors, shippers, many wholesalers and retailers (Including DD, perhaps the best source of fish on the planet); run copper 24/7/365. I know this purely anecdotal; but I've kept many tangs for many years. many of the tangs I lost to Katrina, at least 10, most were close to 10 years old. I have about a dozen tangs now, most over 5-6 yrs, and all treated with Cupramine. BTW, tangs also eat a lot of meaty stuff as they graze. Pods, small shrimp & other crustaceans, etc.

+1 I've treated countless tangs with copper for 4 weeks and have yet to notice any permanent damage. I have noticed some fish developing HLLE after spending several months in copper. But if the OP doesn't like chemical treatments, there's always TT. However, no way would I add a tang to any DT without prophylactically treating for Ich. Just my 2 cents.

kv2wr1
06/22/2013, 05:35 AM
After owning a PBT (I still have him and he's doing very well), I would QT and prophylactically treat any fish going into the DT. The methods and medications may change depending on the individual fish, but I've learned the hard way of what happens when you don't QT and prophylactically treat a fish.

tmz
06/22/2013, 08:27 AM
Tank transfer as a preventative treatment works for tangs too.ime. No meds and no ich

MrTuskfish
06/22/2013, 08:56 AM
Tank transfer as a preventative treatment works for tangs too.ime. No meds and no ich

I agree. TT works extremely well. But ich is the only common parasite it will kill. Its hard to do with a tankful of fish; but for new fish, or a small population, it would be my first choice.

rwlopez713
06/22/2013, 06:57 PM
TT is the way to go. I use PraziPro at the same time. 12 days quick and effective.