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dgtron
03/20/2013, 09:55 AM
I'm at a point where I feel having a substrate is more for aesthetics & wrasse versus benefits of filtration. The kind of gunk that get's trapped if overwhelming.

Is there any positive side to maintaining a substrate? If you do have how do you keep it clean or do you even clean it?

uny2bld
03/20/2013, 11:39 AM
How do you want your sand bed to function?

Do you want something without organisms that you’d have to maintain overtime or do you want the sand bed to work for you so you are relatively maintenance-free – i.e. deep sand bed?

If you have or want a dsb, you don't need to maintain it per say... The issue is that many people will give you advice about dsb’s and from my experiences, 95% of them are wrong or only know some of the facts.

If you really want a good substrate to function as a dsb, I suggest that you read some of Dr. Shimek's work. You will need a certain grain size, etc.

Many say they have a dsb and complain that it doesn't work. When I look at their tank I see why immediately:

-not the right depth
-not the right grain size or kind of substrate
- it's not seeded with micro organisms that make it work, etc., etc.

I see this all the time even with seasoned hobbyist’s

Do your homework and it will pay off.

downbeach
03/20/2013, 11:46 AM
http://www.ronshimek.com/deep_sand_beds.html

uny2bld
03/20/2013, 12:17 PM
http://www.ronshimek.com/deep_sand_beds.html

Now we're talking

dgtron
03/20/2013, 02:05 PM
http://www.ronshimek.com/deep_sand_beds.html

Thanks a Great Read. Thanks for sharing

dgtron
03/20/2013, 02:05 PM
Now we're talking

Thanks for your input. It makes a lot of sense.

uny2bld
03/20/2013, 02:18 PM
Thanks for your input. It makes a lot of sense.

No problem. Finding the correct sand is tough. Many products are sold with faulse implications that they are good for "reef tanks" "deep sand beds" etc., but they are not.

This is what I use: http://www.petsmart.com/product/index.jsp?productId=11164166

(although I don't do business with PetStupid)

This exact sand is the correct grain size. They advertize it as "sugar" sized and I think it's only sold in 30lb bags...

It is carried by Royal so almost any lfs can order it if they do not have it in stock.

worm5406
03/20/2013, 02:27 PM
Here are some pictures of when I upgraded my 120 to the new 180.

I made the sand bed 4-5" and seeded if from the 120.

Here is a FTS:
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-dNWlWv82z1E/UTq7bzRtUoI/AAAAAAAA87E/aSKHQRsQJM4/s800/DSC00019.JPG
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-kyOk-buyTN8/UTVeu27yLNI/AAAAAAAA81Y/Xkv8R8FdfWM/s800/20130304_215451.jpg


Here is some of the substrate. There is three different type in this picture. Ooolite Figi Pink and Natural Substrate.
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-BOAL0sdgpnU/URG5ndWHaVI/AAAAAAAA8TM/MFEgstR1Ysw/s800/20130205_210109.jpg
Zoom:
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-CjXNORMh8tw/URG5syoqhRI/AAAAAAAA8TU/oFChYwwEk48/s800/20130205_210201.jpg
Zoom more:
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-p1MFuou7JXk/URG5iGEUOcI/AAAAAAAA8TE/MoekQWpYOkU/s800/20130205_210054.jpg

Some inhabitants and the surface:
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-y5oa6gBCOCs/UUeVSvNFcRI/AAAAAAAA9Kg/xBj7rqujc5M/s800/DSC00123.JPG
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-0ZvDjjJfUjk/URG5c2ai2UI/AAAAAAAA8S8/QxR9lwDFjxA/s800/20130205_210029.jpg
See the stirations in the levels:
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-MjRKebESAEA/URG5XYKRXbI/AAAAAAAA8S0/fBt2m-hT-UE/s800/20130205_210008.jpg

worm5406
03/20/2013, 02:29 PM
That was only against the glass side. SO imagine what is all across the bed. I seeded in three areas. Front Center, Back left, and Back right. I seeded with what was from my 120 which was original substrate.

It has spread all across the tank in the front so I know is is every where else too.

My refreguium has 40lb of oolite

downbeach
03/20/2013, 02:32 PM
Readily available at Dr.s F&S, and free shipping over $49.00
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=3578+9805+7321&pcatid=7321

uny2bld
03/20/2013, 02:53 PM
Readily available at Dr.s F&S, and free shipping over $49.00
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=3578+9805+7321&pcatid=7321

^ This is actually even better than the link I provided from petStupid because the range is larger and starts at a smaller grain size.

Quote from the product page: "This super-fine sand (0.2 to 1.22 mm grain size)"

PetStupids sand started at:0.5 and went to 1.02 mm grain size

Here is Rons' pie chart showing the ratio. You don't have to get this perfect but most of your sand should be well below the 1 mm grain size...

http://i1086.photobucket.com/albums/j447/uny2bld/Sediment_Particle_Size_Distribution_bw_zpsb73e5509.jpg

uny2bld
03/20/2013, 02:54 PM
Just remember, this sand is worthless without the appropriate fauna... So if you don't already have some good quality liverock, I ould get a few pieces and QT them, then add to the system and allow them to seed it over time.

uny2bld
03/20/2013, 02:55 PM
Oh! One last thing that often gets overlooked... nothing sandsifting in a dsb! No sand sifting stars, gobies, cucumbers, etc. All of these sand sifters will consume the fauna that make the dsb work in the first place so keep that in mind ;)

coralsnaked
03/20/2013, 02:56 PM
How do you want your sand bed to function?

Do you want something without organisms that you’d have to maintain overtime or do you want the sand bed to work for you so you are relatively maintenance-free – i.e. deep sand bed?

If you have or want a dsb, you don't need to maintain it per say... The issue is that many people will give you advice about dsb’s and from my experiences, 95% of them are wrong or only know some of the facts.

If you really want a good substrate to function as a dsb, I suggest that you read some of Dr. Shimek's work. You will need a certain grain size, etc.

Many say they have a dsb and complain that it doesn't work. When I look at their tank I see why immediately:

-not the right depth
-not the right grain size or kind of substrate
- it's not seeded with micro organisms that make it work, etc., etc.

I see this all the time even with seasoned hobbyist’s

Do your homework and it will pay off.


Dearest Mudder.... The Importance of Deep Sand.

By Ronald L. Shimek, Ph. D.

Initially Published in the March, 2001, Aquarium Fish Magazine

Revised, a bit, June, 2006


References cited:


Ott, F. S. 1986. Amphipod sediment bioassays: effects on response of methodology, grain size, organic content, and cadmium. Ph.D. Dissertation. University of Washington. Seattle, Washington. 285p




Everything Dr. Shimek writes about in this publication and in his book is entirely true. And "seasoned hobbyist" have known this for years, some even before Dr. Shimek wrote about it a dozen years ago. And a dozen years ago when I started my first deep sand bed I was all ecstatic because this was the solution to many problems in saltwater reef tanks. As was the inclusion of live rocks back in the early 70’s, prior to that everything was about the water. Can you imagine that? Trying to keep viable water without live sand or live rock. It was damn hard! Not nearly so hard now though. Lots of people manage FO tanks without the benefit of either. Ever watch Tanked? They do this w/ today's sophisticated equipment we didn't have 35 years ago. And now we can do it without a deep sand bed with the addition of sophisticated equipment we didn't have only 10+ years ago.

With everything DR. Shimek talks about “First, they provide a place for processing and exporting some dissolved nutrients. Second, they provide a place to recycle detritus, excess foods, animal feces and other particulate material into useable forms. Finally, they provide a food source for many reef animals." This can all easily be accomplished without deep sand beds. Processing and exporting dissolved nutrients. Done lots of ways but I will mention the two industry staples. Skimming and a reactor. Reprocessing of detritus, excess foods, animal feces and other particulates. Power heads and the filtration system takes care of this now. This is why we talk about 30X circulation minimals in SPS tanks. We want to remove them so we do not need to reprocess them into more Nitrates and Nitrous gas. A food source for many reef animals? You mean what we call our CUC and the animals that actually live in the sand. OK so yes I am only interested in creating part of the natural reef and the rest I do because I have too, to keep the animals I desire. But sand animals are no longer a requirement due to improvements in number one & two.

Look I know they can be sort of cool, but not necessary. And in fact sand is the number one reason seasoned hobbyist experience OTS Old Tank Syndrome. Wait till you have a 10 year old tank you dearly love and can't manage it anymore. And I know there are people out there who will write " I have a 10+ year old Reef Tank w/ deep sand and have never done a thing to it except.... " and I can read you 100 + stories from hobbyist from all experience levels talking about the problems w/ their sand beds that are the right depth, grain size and correct fauna and maintenance. How many hobbyist talk about problems with their bare bottom SPS Reef tanks. Ohhhh! Now that I think says it all.

I’m just saying IMO they are not needed and most likely will fail you at some point and leech out into the water. Oh and they are really the number one cause of GHA and other algae. Which is why if you must have a deep sand then keep it in the sump, but then again I say rock is best there too.

Just saying…

seapug
03/20/2013, 02:56 PM
I'd recommend you either go bare bottom, very shallow (1-2 max) or 6" plus. Anything between 2-6 inches doesn't provide the benefits of a "real" DSB and is a pain to keep clean.

uny2bld
03/20/2013, 03:15 PM
Look I know they can be sort of cool, but not necessary. And in fact sand is the number one reason seasoned hobbyist experience OTS Old Tank Syndrome. Wait till you have a 10 year old tank you dearly love and can't manage it anymore. And I know there are people out there who will write " I have a 10+ year old Reef Tank w/ deep sand and have never done a thing to it except.... " and I can read you 100 + stories from hobbyist from all experience levels talking about the problems w/ their sand beds that are the right depth, grain size and correct fauna and maintenance. How many hobbyist talk about problems with their bare bottom SPS Reef tanks. Ohhhh! Now that I think says it all.

I’m just saying IMO they are not needed and most likely will fail you at some point and leech out into the water. Oh and they are really the number one cause of GHA and other algae. Which is why if you must have a deep sand then keep it in the sump, but then again I say rock is best there too.

Just saying… this has not been my experience at all. Almost everyone I know who relies strictly on equipment to keep their system stable ends up with their tank crashing (usually several times over)

I am still waiting to see even one example of someone who was in fact set up correctly with a genuine dsb that had their tank crash due to OTS... I hear many many stories of this and every time I see the "proof", I find that they were never set up as a true dsb to begin with. The only maintenance one needs to do to a true dsb is replenish some of the fauna over time and that's a lot less than what you'd need to do for a syatem just run on equipment.

Besides, this thread had nothing to do with bare bottom tanks. He was asking how to maintain a sand bed...

I'm not saying I don't like equipment and/or barebottom tanks. They have their place and I like many tanks based off of their design but I like and have better luck with dsbs

Several of my tanks have been set up for 7 years now so in 3 years I will let you know if I get OTS...

uny2bld
03/20/2013, 03:20 PM
I'd recommend you either go bare bottom, very shallow (1-2 max) or 6" plus. Anything between 2-6 inches doesn't provide the benefits of a "real" DSB and is a pain to keep clean.

Some truth here but not entirely (from my experience) Like Dr. Shimek, I had several tanks going all at the same time for years testing results (and still do have several of those tanks running)

You are correct in that 6" depth is better but I have had good results with a 4" dsb

If you can... yes indeed go with a 6" depth but it's not necessary imo.

downbeach
03/20/2013, 03:21 PM
A little more reading here:
http://www.reef-eden.net/DSBs.htm

Old Tank Syndrone:
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2006/10/aafeature

uny2bld
03/20/2013, 03:27 PM
A little more reading here:
http://www.reef-eden.net/DSBs.htm

This tank was also run with a 3-4" dsb and with great results ;)

dgtron
03/21/2013, 07:37 PM
Here are pics of my current substrate

I feel the substrate in my aquarium seems Good, but very bad in my refugium as per all the inputs so far.

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-UqiS8lvjlrk/UUuy0lnYnPI/AAAAAAAAEh0/Y-1aC6L95-U/w910-h837-p-o-k/IMG_1755.JPG

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-WDIxzJHfeKs/UUuy0z0hIMI/AAAAAAAAEiA/T1GrcKrFwDs/w553-h414-p-o-k/IMG_1756.JPG

Refugium
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-uUfQjUGS5fQ/UUuy2zDitRI/AAAAAAAAEiY/1Ss5zrg0n4Y/w553-h414-p-o-k/IMG_1759.JPG

Some black stuff over the substrate
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-d6ys9qT1xX8/UUuy2p73wkI/AAAAAAAAEiM/DXpYKUcM1mQ/w553-h414-p-o-k/IMG_1758.JPG

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-wa_xOKDoIRo/UUuy0xPjZnI/AAAAAAAAEh4/Eacr7Dc8HBM/w553-h414-p-o-k/IMG_1757.JPG

uny2bld
03/21/2013, 07:54 PM
^ I like seeing the activity in the bed in your display tank although both tanks appear to have sand with too large of a grain size... I really like how it looks though. It's so different than what I'm used to seeing and I can't exactly make out what is in your substrate as there seems to be so much variety. Neat stuff.

I have never tried this but one thing you could do is change half of the substrate. I'd do just one side of the tank to allow the rest of the bed time to seed itself then change out the other side at a later date. (if you really feel it is an issue)