Is it Ich? (and to treat or not to treat)

[dkeller_nc]

Hi Folks -

I've been in the hobby a very long time, but this situation is a bit confounding, at least about what to do about it.

I've a newly re-started 20 gal mini-reef; this tank has been running for about 9 years, albiet without fish or invertebrates of any kind for the last 6 years (hurricane power outage - don't ask!). Without getting long-winded about it, I've added a couple of "fresh" (but cured) live rocks to the existing base, built the live sand bed up to 3", installed some fresh PC lamps, added some propeller pumps, did several massive water changes, and added a fair number of SPS corals, numerous turbos, nassarius, and a fighting conch.

The fish inhabitants are a very small sailfin tang (3"), a lawnmower blenny, a rainford's goby, a banggai cardinal and a royal gramma. I haven't seen the gramma for a week or so, but there have been no bodies, so it's either cryptic, or befell a predator that might or might not be in the tank.

The water conditions are about as close to perfect as I'm capable of - no ammonia, nitrite, or phosphate, nitrate running at about 5 ppm total nitrate ion and dropping. Ph 8.3, dKH 9-11, Ca about 480 ppm. And they've been that way for about 4 weeks since I resurrected the tank (and I test nightly).

The tang is showing that rather depressing "salted" look characteristic of ich. No other inhabitants appear to be affected (at all).

Here's where I'm scratching my head - the tang is a pig when it comes to feedings, and exhibits none of the listlessness, rapid respiration, or scratching against hard objects that I would expect of ich. I noticed the infestation about 3 days ago.

So here's the dilemma. The tang and the lawnmower blenny are absolute keys to keeping the biotope in this little tank happy. Without them, I fear that I would be unable to fend off the inevitable algae issues that would arise (particularly if I remove the blenny).

Should I attempt to treat the tang, all of the fish, or none of the fish? As I understand it, fish can and do develop immunity to this nasty little parasite. I know that tangs are susceptible, and not treating it might doom him. But I know comparitively little about the susceptibility of the other piscine denizens of the tank.

I have the massive amounts of old and moldy equipment that every long-time fishkeeper accumulates, so setting up a "tank transfer" attempt at a cure is possible without spending a mint. But as I stated above, I fear that turbo snails alone isn't going to be enough to keep algae in check if I remove all of the fish to a bare 20 gallon. And I suspect the rainford would starve very quickly - he's been fat and happy with the diatoms and other detritus he can get off of the sand bed for the last few weeks, but he will not accept even live food that I've offered.

Advice? Should I take a short "wait 'n see" attitude of a few days, or immediately set about setting up some 20 gallon tanks for hospitals and start dosing with cupramine?

[triggreef]

First, a 20g its way too small for that tang no question. Second, if your parameters are what you listed them you should have no algae issues at all anyway, & that should only get better after the fish are removed from the system.

If you treat the tang only, then put him back, he will just get ich again from the others. The other fish you listed are a little less vulnerable & might show less signs, but still carry it. Don't forget ich infects the gills b4 you ever see it on the fish.

[dkeller_nc]

Yeah, the 20 gallon isn't intended as the final home for the sailfin. But at the moment he's plenty small enough.

I was wondering about vulnerability of the other fish. In reading over the "stickies" in this forum, wrasses were mentioned as being nearly immune, but I wasn't sure about the l.m. blenny, cardinalfish and rainford goby.

I'll have to think through this (the method for treating). I'm leaning toward cupramine b/c I can set up a hospital tank with a little sacrificial live rock (I have more than 200 lbs. in an idle tank) and a skimmer. I would think that would stress the fish less than the tank transfer method, where ammonia control is going to be problematic.

One other thought I've had is to put a big UV sterilizer on the 20 gallon reef and run it continuously for a couple of months to rapidly eliminate the free-swimming life stage of the ich. Some of Steve Norwich's posts indicate that ich is pretty common in wild-caught fish, but doesn't cause problems because of the huge volume of ocean water (so a fish rarely gets heavily infected).

[Mrscribbled]

Ich will always be in your tank as long as fish are present. A ten week fallow is needed and all fish treated. Unless the sailfin is post larval a twenty gallon is by no means large enough and is borderline abuse on the fish. Either way he needs to be rehomed.


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[triggreef]

If your not planning to upgrade to a bigger tank in the near future, I would almost suggest just starting over in another 20g might be the easiest way, with fresh rock etc and qt (with cuprmine) the fish you already have in the meantime while the new tank cycles.

I only suggest that because being such a small tank its not a ton of work and will save a lot of time in the long run of going fallow. I planned 12 weeks fallow and after 8 wks lost my will power. Its a long (xx) weeks to wait. while looking at rocks. lol.

[jamesbaur13]

Hi Folks -

I've been in the hobby a very long time, but this situation is a bit confounding, at least about what to do about it.

I've a newly re-started 20 gal mini-reef; this tank has been running for about 9 years, albiet without fish or invertebrates of any kind for the last 6 years (hurricane power outage - don't ask!). Without getting long-winded about it, I've added a couple of "fresh" (but cured) live rocks to the existing base, built the live sand bed up to 3", installed some fresh PC lamps, added some propeller pumps, did several massive water changes, and added a fair number of SPS corals, numerous turbos, nassarius, and a fighting conch.

The fish inhabitants are a very small sailfin tang (3"), a lawnmower blenny, a rainford's goby, a banggai cardinal and a royal gramma. I haven't seen the gramma for a week or so, but there have been no bodies, so it's either cryptic, or befell a predator that might or might not be in the tank.

The water conditions are about as close to perfect as I'm capable of - no ammonia, nitrite, or phosphate, nitrate running at about 5 ppm total nitrate ion and dropping. Ph 8.3, dKH 9-11, Ca about 480 ppm. And they've been that way for about 4 weeks since I resurrected the tank (and I test nightly).

The tang is showing that rather depressing "salted" look characteristic of ich. No other inhabitants appear to be affected (at all).

Here's where I'm scratching my head - the tang is a pig when it comes to feedings, and exhibits none of the listlessness, rapid respiration, or scratching against hard objects that I would expect of ich. I noticed the infestation about 3 days ago.

So here's the dilemma. The tang and the lawnmower blenny are absolute keys to keeping the biotope in this little tank happy. Without them, I fear that I would be unable to fend off the inevitable algae issues that would arise (particularly if I remove the blenny).

Should I attempt to treat the tang, all of the fish, or none of the fish? As I understand it, fish can and do develop immunity to this nasty little parasite. I know that tangs are susceptible, and not treating it might doom him. But I know comparitively little about the susceptibility of the other piscine denizens of the tank.

I have the massive amounts of old and moldy equipment that every long-time fishkeeper accumulates, so setting up a "tank transfer" attempt at a cure is possible without spending a mint. But as I stated above, I fear that turbo snails alone isn't going to be enough to keep algae in check if I remove all of the fish to a bare 20 gallon. And I suspect the rainford would starve very quickly - he's been fat and happy with the diatoms and other detritus he can get off of the sand bed for the last few weeks, but he will not accept even live food that I've offered.

Advice? Should I take a short "wait 'n see" attitude of a few days, or immediately set about setting up some 20 gallon tanks for hospitals and start dosing with cupramine?

What's your goal?

Is it to have an Ick free 20g tank, or to establish something to grow off of?

Understand, volume improves some conditions while simultaneously making other conditions more difficult to deal with.

[dkeller_nc]

An update in case other members are facing the same dilemma (cure, or control).

Based on advice from the owner of a LFS, I decided to go with control rather than cure, at least for the moment. My thought is that even though I won't be adding any additional fish to this DT, I may well be adding additional frags/corals.

Since there's a definite possibility of re-introducing the parasite cysts with those additional animals, it doesn't make a lot of sense to me to cure the fish with cupramine and cure the tank with a fallow period, only to be fighting it again after a few more animals are added.

So, since all fish in the tank are eating voraciously and therefore there's an opportunity to introduce an anti-parasitic to their bloodstreams, I prepped a frozen food paste with Focus and Metronidazole. I started feeding this paste on Friday evening (twice per day, with additional feedings of non-medicated food in between medication dosings). As an additional control measure, I put an 18w UV sterilizer in-line to destroy the free-swimming theronts. To ensure that there's minimal metronidazole in the tank water, I added 3 tablespoons of Seachem matrix carbon to the sump; I'll change this out every 3 days during the course of the metro treatment.

As of this morning (Sunday), the number of cysts on the tang has dropped from 25+ to 2. None of the other fish have become infected. I plan on continuing the metro feed for the next week, and continue to run the sterilizer 24/7 for the next 2 months. It remains to be seen whether the reduction in parasites is an effect of the medication/sterilization or there will be an additional outbreak in about 6 days from a 2nd generation.

I set up a 20 gallon with a bit of LR and a skimmer to use as a back-up cupramine hospital tank if the control measures in the DT aren't successful.

I am in the process of deciding on whether to setup my original 90 gallon reef or go with something bigger. That will be the eventual home of the tang within the next couple of months.

I should mention that this scheme is what the LFS uses to control parasitism in their system, and very successfully. I can certainly understand how keeping cryptocaryon totally out of their system would be impossible based on cycling 50 or more animals a week through it.

[spieszak]

I should mention that this scheme is what the LFS uses to control parasitism in their system, and very successfully. I can certainly understand how keeping cryptocaryon totally out of their system would be impossible based on cycling 50 or more animals a week through it.

Since I don't believe in anything your LFS is telling you, and I think the strategy you've bought into here is bound for failure, I'm only going to throw a passing mention at how useless I think feed and ignore is. You said you've read the stickies and your choosing a direction that isn't in them, or if it is, is advised against.
What I'd like you to consider is that the LFS is "successful' with this strategy because they are passing off infected fish to the hobbyists before the ich in their tanks can overtake them. You said yourself, they cycle 50 or more animals through their system a week. I'm done fighting with people who think that ich will just go away on its own, or that the massive fish killing outbreak won't "happen to me". I just think you missing a big "logic hole" in the LFS's argument, and decided it useful to point that out.

[EllieSuz]

I understand that "immunity" might work on a virus or bacterial infection, but Ich is a living parasite. How would a fish develop an immunity to Ich? Since there are periods in the life cycle of this parasite that shows no visible signs, the fact that spots on your Tang are fewer really doesn't mean much. BTW, keeping any live rock in a hospital or quarantine tank will distort the dosage because it absorbs some of the copper (or whatever). Offer your fish a few pvc elbows for hiding places instead. I know there is a popular belief that no tank can be free of Ich, but I've never seen any sign of it and have always felt that it was because I have always quarantined new livestock. I'm glad you've set up a back-up plan and have a hunch you'll need it.

[MrTuskfish]

Many LFS have a system to control ich. They flush fish that are showing signs of parasites.

[dkeller_nc]

I'm done fighting with people who think that ich will just go away on its own, or that the massive fish killing outbreak won't "happen to me".

I definitely don't think that it will go away on its own, though some of the discussion in the stickies suggests that to be the case (the fish, assuming they survive the first infection, develop an immunity).

I've been an aquarist for 35+ years, and at one point with more than 2500 circulating gallons in 50 or so tanks. So I definitely don't think that a massive fish kill won't happen to me - I've learned otherwise (the hard way). :p

[dkeller_nc]

BTW, keeping any live rock in a hospital or quarantine tank will distort the dosage because it absorbs some of the copper (or whatever).

Yeah, I realize that, so testing the water for copper concentration will go along with cupramine. I'm very hesitant to set up a marine tank of any kind without cycled biological filtration, as I would expect that the inevitable ammonia exposure would potentially do as much damage to the fish as the disease being treated. I see this as the biggest disadvantage with Cupramine; one could ordinarily go through a bucket of carbon to control the ammonia spikes, but seachem's own marketing literature states that the AC will rapidly remove the cupramine.

I know there is a popular belief that no tank can be free of Ich, but I've never seen any sign of it and have always felt that it was because I have always quarantined new livestock. I'm glad you've set up a back-up plan and have a hunch you'll need it.

I think you're correct (that a tank can be free of Ich), as I at one time had 4 reef tanks operating for more than 5 years with dozens of fish and have never had to deal with the marine variety of Ich before. I don't know if that was simply the nature of a reef tank, with tons of filter-feeders removing anything free-swimming in short order, very high UV levels, etc..., or extremely good luck. I rather doubt the "good luck" explanation, since many of the fish were captured from the Gulf Stream on diving trips, and some of the reading I've been doing suggests an Ich infection rate of as much as 25% in wild reef fish.

I should say that I don't discount the advice on the forum. Evidence of that was staying up until 2 a.m. Friday night setting up a back-up cupramine plan. If this were a freshwater situation, there would be no doubt about treating with copper, partially because the main display tank can be treated without removing the animals (and making the problem worse by stressing them).

In this case, though, my thought is that the stress on the fish brought about by removing them, placing them in a water quality environment that they aren't adapted for (non-zero ammonia levels, for one) and exposing them to a treatment that, at least by the accounts I've been reading, will potentially put them off of their food and cause long-term issues as well may make the cure worse than the disease.

[EllieSuz]

I wonder if part of the issue isn't one of semantics. We may be confusing the term "immunity" with "tolerance". It may be that a fish can develop a tolerance to the parasite, although I don't have any information to substantiate that. It's just that I don't think immunity is the correct word. This might be a good subject for debate.

[MrTuskfish]

I think there have some pretty convincing papers showing many fish can develop TEMPORARY immunity to SOME strains of ich. Lots of fish, like mandarins, have a lot of resistance, but are not immune. No fish has permanent immunity to ich; but plenty of folks like the thought of it and make themselves believe it. These instances seldom end well.

[dkeller_nc]

I wonder if part of the issue isn't one of semantics. We may be confusing the term "immunity" with "tolerance". It may be that a fish can develop a tolerance to the parasite, although I don't have any information to substantiate that. It's just that I don't think immunity is the correct word. This might be a good subject for debate.

Yeah, I think you're right. I suppose it's not impossible, but absolute immunity to an ectoparasite seems extremely unlikely. Personally, I'd settle for tolerance brought about by substantially reducing the numbers of free-swimming theronts (by UV sterilizing the water column). That'll do until I can get my bigger tank set up, at which time I can treat the fish with cupramine or the tank transfer method to (hopefully) eliminate the pest.

[MrTuskfish]

Yeah, I think you're right. I suppose it's not impossible, but absolute immunity to an ectoparasite seems extremely unlikely. Personally, I'd settle for tolerance brought about by substantially reducing the numbers of free-swimming theronts (by UV sterilizing the water column). That'll do until I can get my bigger tank set up, at which time I can treat the fish with cupramine or the tank transfer method to (hopefully) eliminate the pest.

AW, Just toss in some garlic.

[MrTuskfish]

A few of the enormous number of mis-information by the OP on this thread;
1.)Wrasse are not immune to ich
20 A sailfin tang, regardless of size, will be severely stressed in a small tank; they don't tolerate the lack of swimming room.
3.) No fish has permanent immunity from any strain of ice.
4.) UV does very little to help ich. Most new theronts are released on the substrate, at night. Fish sleep on the substrate. The odds of many new theronts finding a fish before the UV intake are astronomical.
5.) Moving a fish to treat ich is not that stressful, certainly not as stressful as dying from ich.
6.) The number of visible spots, overnight, is not an indicator of ich and progress battling it. Ich commonly almost disappears, then returns X 100.
I could go on, but have to shut up sometime.

I don't know why I bother responding, the OP seems to have decided what was going on before he posted, maybe looking for reinforcement. Now my reason for posting:
I hope all newcomers ignore this thread, its a blueprint for disaster.

[dkeller_nc]

I don't know why I bother responding, the OP seems to have decided what was going on before he posted, maybe looking for reinforcement.

Nope; like all things internet, one has to synthesize a strategy from many different opinions. Even on this subject, and in the "stickies", which I interpret to have at least some degree of authority, there's a good bit of disagreement. I was just looking for opinions (and I think I got them!).

Like I said previously, if I was convinced I knew what the deal was, I certainly wouldn't have bothered setting up a hospital tank to treat with cupramine.

And - I wasn't attempting to post information (or misinformation), I rather doubt anyone reading this thread would conclude that I'm anything other than a newbie in dealing with this specific problem. I was just trying to synthesize an overall picture from reading through (most) of the stickies on the forum, and on others across the 'net.

Thanks to all for the help, I will re-post with the outcome.

[MrTuskfish]

My apologies if I got the wrong impression. Good luck with what every you decide.

[msmith619]

I am wondering.......
Seachem Metronidazole for internal treatment of ich makes sense. In medicine we use Metronidazole to treat protozoan infections as well as amoebic infections.
Cryptocaryon irritans (also known as marine white spot disease or marine ich) is a species of ciliate protozoa that parasitizes marine fish, and is one of the most common causes of disease in marine aquaria.
Since ich is a protozoa, it should respond to Metronidazole.
Using Seachem Focus, which also contains nitrofurantoin, an antibiotic to help any secondary infections, to bind the Metronidazole to the food for internal usage should treat the attached protazoa and kill it at that stage.
If you use it all thru the life cycle, any protozoa that attch the fish should die and effectively rid the tank of the infection.

[MrTuskfish]

I am wondering.......
Seachem Metronidazole for internal treatment of ich makes sense. In medicine we use Metropolitan to treat protozoan infections as well as amoebic infections.
Cryptocaryon irritans (also known as marine white spot disease or marine ich) is a species of ciliate protozoa that parasitizes marine fish, and is one of the most common causes of disease in marine aquaria.
Since ich is a protozoa, it should respond to Metronidazole.
Using Seachem Focus, which also contains nitrofurantoin, an antibiotic to help any secondary infections, to bind the Metronidazole to the food for internal usage should treat the attached protazoa and kill it at that stage.
If you use it all thru the life cycle, any protozoa that attch the fish should die and effectively rid the tank of the infection.

Ich parasites bury into the fish, they do not just attach to the fish; I assume this is why short-term meds in the water column don't kill it. I have used Metronidazole several times (not for ich control) in an HT. It did nothing for the ich in the fish. I imagine I've seen a few dozen threads on our forum that talk about using Metronidazole for ich; never heard a success story.