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bighead
03/23/2013, 07:42 AM
Some up this morning with 20gal of water on my floor somehow my drain slowed down. I use a durso overflow I took everything apart no clogs or any problems works fine now .the tank overflowed because the auto top off kept filling the tank when the sump went low. Time to put a float valve in tank to shut off main pump if water level goes too high

Has anybody ever had a similar problem
I am assuming the problem was with the drain

PAnanoguy
03/23/2013, 08:33 AM
sure it was the tank overflowed or was it the sump? did the top off keep going because of the overflow or was it the reason for the overflow? if the top off kept filling the tank then I would think it was the sump that overflowed not the tank or the dursos. in which case a float valve in the return section of the sump would be a good idea too. either way, your salinity is going to be way out of wack now too so check that.

bighead
03/23/2013, 09:20 AM
The tank overflowed not the sump my ATO is fail safe with 2 float switches
I got my salt level back to normal was a bit Low not much I added 5 gal go a 110 gal system

gone fishin
03/23/2013, 09:26 AM
Quite awhile ago my skimmer overflowed into my overflow bucket causing my ATO to keep filling until it was empty. Any how Go to a big box store type and pick up a $10 water sensor. They are usually around the hot water heaters. They just sit on the floor They have saved my bacon a couple times.

GroktheCube
03/23/2013, 11:49 AM
This is why emergency drains are 125% necessary IMHO. Sorry to hear about your flood :-/

Why did the ATO get stuck on?

hillscp
03/23/2013, 11:52 AM
I'm a little confused. You are saying that the ATO put too much water in the tank but that you have a two float switch fail safe system?

It sounds like your ATO is putting the water directly into the tank which could be problematic if your ATO pump overpowers the capacity of your drain. Why aren't you topping off in the sump? Where are the float switches? How is the ATO filling the tank? Pump? What kind?

Durso's suck IMO. A siphon with an emergency drain would have prevented this (but I'm not going to get into that much)

bighead
03/23/2013, 08:16 PM
My ATO did not put too much water into my tank
what I believe happened is my drain somehow did not drain water fast enough and th DT overflowed and the water in my sump went low because it was pumping faster than it could drain and the ATO dumped make up water to the sump

I did not witness any of this I was asleep so I can not say exactly what happened all I know is( my wife who did not want a tank is ****ed) and I am a bit confused

hillscp
03/23/2013, 08:31 PM
Ah. Sorry buddy. Might consider re-plumbing with an emergency drain. Women are like that :)

GroktheCube
03/23/2013, 09:14 PM
As hillscp suggested, look into a Herbie or Bean Animal overflow design. Only having a single drain all but guarantees a nasty flood at some point.

Sonyardo
03/24/2013, 07:07 AM
I would be looking at the durso vent to make sure it doesn't have salt creep build up or a blockage. Make sure that critters can't get to the overflow pipe and block it. Revisit your turnover flow rate and make sure that you're not running too much flow thru the sump. You may need to slow it down a bit. It's also a good idea to keep your overflow covered somehow with netting, screen or light diffuser to keep snails, fish, and debris out of the drain pipe. What your describing does sound like an issue with the drain or turnover gph rate.

cap032
03/24/2013, 07:52 AM
I would be looking at the durso vent to make sure it doesn't have salt creep build up or a blockage. Make sure that critters can't get to the overflow pipe and block it. Revisit your turnover flow rate and make sure that you're not running too much flow thru the sump. You may need to slow it down a bit. It's also a good idea to keep your overflow covered somehow with netting, screen or light diffuser to keep snails, fish, and debris out of the drain pipe. What your describing does sound like an issue with the drain or turnover gph rate.

Yeah, it sounds like he has enough flow to cause the duroso to syphon.......not good. Likely there was a syphon break that caused the overflow. To the OP........if this is the case, it may happen again. What size/type is your return pump, how many overlows do you have, and what size is your drain plumbing?

BretCreager
03/24/2013, 10:30 AM
if you do decide to run a float switch to your main pump make sure you are running it through a relay. those float switches may say they can handle it but i wouldnt want to run that much current through them. I even with with a relay on my MJ400 that I use for my ATO that I made. cant hurt.

hillscp
03/24/2013, 10:43 AM
A siphoning Durso will carry more water not less.

Hal
03/24/2013, 10:55 AM
if you do decide to run a float switch to your main pump make sure you are running it through a relay. those float switches may say they can handle it but i wouldnt want to run that much current through them. I even with with a relay on my MJ400 that I use for my ATO that I made. cant hurt.

Where can somebody find these relays?

hillscp
03/24/2013, 12:57 PM
Where can somebody find these relays?

If you have an RKL you don't need a relay. Get one or two switches and a little pump (I use a Toms Aqualifter)

For a single float switch setup, program the RKL to turn on the aqualifter when the switch goes down. Put the pump on a timer so it won't flood if the float switch sticks (I set mine to 5 minutes every hour)

For a dual float switch setup, install one switch at water level sump and the second an inch or so above. Program so the pump turns on when the water level drops below the lower switch and back off when it reaches the higher switch.

I use the single switch setup. I've had it that way for two years even though I have another switch laying around :)

Works great

Edit: Here is a good thread on the DA web site. http://www.forum.digitalaquatics.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=10728

bighead
03/24/2013, 01:19 PM
I will be adding a float switch on the main return pump controlled by a 12 volt circuit on a relay
I dont know why or how this happened to me but it will not happen to me again
I had a 150 for 4 years and never had a problem got lucky I guess it could have been a lot worse luckly I only have 2 fish and a couple of hardy mushrooms because my top off water has Kalk in it I only use 2 Tbl for every 5 gals for now imagine the problem I would have had a year from now fully stocked with fish and coral glad it happenrd now

cap032
03/24/2013, 01:58 PM
A siphoning Durso will carry more water not less.

Until the syphon breaks..........then water on the floor!

BretCreager
03/24/2013, 03:49 PM
http://www.aqua-man.com/row_num.asp?Ic=90738

I bought the 120vac model, but I think next time I'm going to try with a 12vdc model and use an old power supply from the hording box in the closet, I'm not sure but I think I should be able to pass 120vac through the common and n.o. Terminals while using 12vdc to control the coil, I would rather have 12vdc mess up in my water than the 120.

GroktheCube
03/24/2013, 04:13 PM
I will be adding a float switch on the main return pump controlled by a 12 volt circuit on a relay
I dont know why or how this happened to me but it will not happen to me again
I had a 150 for 4 years and never had a problem got lucky I guess it could have been a lot worse luckly I only have 2 fish and a couple of hardy mushrooms because my top off water has Kalk in it I only use 2 Tbl for every 5 gals for now imagine the problem I would have had a year from now fully stocked with fish and coral glad it happenrd now

Not to be a nudge, but I'd advise you to seriously consider adding a second emergency drain. It's easy to just plumb the return up over the back of the tank. Float switches can fail.

cap032
03/24/2013, 08:30 PM
Not to be a nudge, but I'd advise you to seriously consider adding a second emergency drain. It's easy to just plumb the return up over the back of the tank. Float switches can fail.

That or reduce the flow of the return so that the duroso isnt having to develop a syphon to keep up. I still wonder how big of a return pump he is using.

GroktheCube
03/24/2013, 09:01 PM
That or reduce the flow of the return so that the duroso isnt having to develop a syphon to keep up. I still wonder how big of a return pump he is using.That's not the issue. A 1" pipe will easily flow 1500GPH in siphon. A siphon drain is really better than a Durso in most ways. Quieter, higher flow, and no bubbles.

With either, it's very easy for something to clog the single drain, and then it doesn't matter how much water the return is pushing into the tank, it will overflow.

bighead
03/25/2013, 06:39 AM
I am using a mag 12 pump for my return pump
when you sat siphon drain is that the same as a Herbie style drain

hillscp
03/25/2013, 07:14 AM
That's what I mean when I say it :)

cap032
03/25/2013, 02:40 PM
I am using a mag 12 pump for my return pump
when you sat siphon drain is that the same as a Herbie style drain

You will solve your problem by buying a much smaller return pump. You dont need a ton of flow through your sump. You dont actually need more sump flow than your skimmer can process. For reference, I have a 125g dual overflow tank and I run a Sicce Syncra 3.0 dialed back to produce approx 350gph, which is what my skimmer can process. As a result, I have a quiet system and have no worry of my tank overflowing. One of my drains could become completely clogged and Im still safe. To get proper circulation within the tank itself, where you do need it, invest in some powerheads. There is nothing wrong with the Herbie style set up either, but your problem can be easily solved by pulling a Mag 12 out of your sump and placing a much smaller pump in............it doesnt get any easier than that! ;) lol

cap032
03/25/2013, 02:56 PM
That's not the issue. A 1" pipe will easily flow 1500GPH in siphon. A siphon drain is really better than a Durso in most ways. Quieter, higher flow, and no bubbles.

With either, it's very easy for something to clog the single drain, and then it doesn't matter how much water the return is pushing into the tank, it will overflow.

A 1" pipe would need about a 2ft straight drop to be able to handle 1500gph. How much water a pipe can carry under a full syphon depends on the height at which it falls and how many bends are in the line. With the OPs current plumbing setup, the Mag 12 is likely right on the cusp of what his drain can or cant handle. This is why it worked..........and then it didnt. Even if he added an emergency line, which theoretically you should never have to use, he should still either drop to a smaller pump or redo his plumbing with a straighter shot to the sump to accomodate the Mag 12.

MrClam
03/25/2013, 03:12 PM
A smaller return pump will not solve the issue. The issue is that he doesnt have an emergency drain so if the main drain clogs there is no backup. What happened here is that the main drain had a small obstruction in it and that slowed flow enough to cause water level in the DT to rise.

Ill agree that changing to a smaller return pump will give you more "wiggle room" before the pipe can not handle the flow, but it still leaves risk of overflow.

hillscp
03/25/2013, 07:13 PM
You will solve your problem by buying a much smaller return pump. You dont need a ton of flow through your sump. You dont actually need more sump flow than your skimmer can process. For reference, I have a 125g dual overflow tank and I run a Sicce Syncra 3.0 dialed back to produce approx 350gph, which is what my skimmer can process. As a result, I have a quiet system and have no worry of my tank overflowing. One of my drains could become completely clogged and Im still safe. To get proper circulation within the tank itself, where you do need it, invest in some powerheads. There is nothing wrong with the Herbie style set up either, but your problem can be easily solved by pulling a Mag 12 out of your sump and placing a much smaller pump in............it doesnt get any easier than that! ;) lol

So your suggesting that the OP spend his time and money simply replacing his pump instead of making his drain safe? Maybe next time he will only have 20 gallons on the floor instead of 40 "LOL"

bighead
03/25/2013, 08:15 PM
I ordered all the stuff I need to make thr float swith work I got thr float switch and a relay I will make some sort of hanger for the floatswitch when I get it an emergency drain is absolutly a great idea I just dont want to replumb my system so the next best thing is the float switch I feel confident it will work and not fail I am an electrian and I deal with relay contactors and other related things and they do not fail can it yes but unlikely

I would like to thank everybody for there help and advice it was helpfull and I finally made it to the big time a 2 page thread

cap032
03/25/2013, 09:29 PM
So your suggesting that the OP spend his time and money simply replacing his pump instead of making his drain safe? Maybe next time he will only have 20 gallons on the floor instead of 40 "LOL"

Im suggesting the OP didnt have a plugged drain. He had too much pump for his overflow. Per the OP, there were no clogs. ;) If he had a smaller pump, this thread would have never been created and he would still have that 40 gallons in his tank as opposed to his floor! ;) lol
If the OP were to add a second drain, I assume it would be using the current return bulkhead which is likely smaller than his current drain bulkhead. If he makes the smaller one the primary..............it wont handle the Mag 12 either forcing the emergency into constant operation. That isnt making anything safer.;) If the current return is made the emergency, it will still overflow his tank if the primary gets clogged running a Mag 12 because it cant handle the pump either.;) Syphon sytems incorporate a drain that has to be partially closed to find the right balance along with a "larger" or equal sized emergency drain that is fully opened in the event of a mishap with the primary. Again the OP doesnt have that luxury because his biggest option for a drain already cant handle the return pump. I agree, I would add a 2nd drain for safety, but without a smaller return with his set up..........its a moot point.

cap032
03/25/2013, 09:43 PM
I ordered all the stuff I need to make thr float swith work I got thr float switch and a relay I will make some sort of hanger for the floatswitch when I get it an emergency drain is absolutly a great idea I just dont want to replumb my system so the next best thing is the float switch I feel confident it will work and not fail I am an electrian and I deal with relay contactors and other related things and they do not fail can it yes but unlikely

I would like to thank everybody for there help and advice it was helpfull and I finally made it to the big time a 2 page thread

A float switch is good extra protection but it wont fix the drainage problem. You probably wont have the problem again until you go on vacation (thats when stuff always seems to happen...lol). You would be in bad shape if the drain lost syphon. The float switch would save your floor but your tank might go days with the return shut down. For that matter, sometimes even float switches fail. I understand not wanting to redo your plumbing but it would be wise to at least combine a smaller pump with the float switch. At least then it would truly take something clogging the drain to force the switch into action as opposed to syphoning issues. Neverthless.......congrats on the 2 page HOF!!! lol

hillscp
03/25/2013, 10:48 PM
I'm aware how a siphon system works having run a Herbie system for three years now.

I am not sure what you mean when you say "lose siphon". Can you please elaborate? As long as the pipe opening is below the surface and gravity is present water will travel down the pipe. My experience with Durso's is that if you over drive them they cycle between siphoning and sucking air (I had had one of those too). Since a siphon carries more water than a pipe sucking air (ie a broken siphon) something must have occurred to limit the amount of water going down the drain which caused water to pour out on the floor. I suppose the other option is that the pump started moving more water but that seems unlikely.

An open emergency would have prevented that flood. That is a fact.

A single drain with no emergency is a flood waiting to happen. That's another fact.

Designing a safe system is just as easy as designing one that isn't. Fact number three.

Just sayin (and done)

GroktheCube
03/26/2013, 12:12 AM
Im suggesting the OP didnt have a plugged drain. He had too much pump for his overflow. Per the OP, there were no clogs. ;) If he had a smaller pump, this thread would have never been created and he would still have that 40 gallons in his tank as opposed to his floor! ;) lol
If the OP were to add a second drain, I assume it would be using the current return bulkhead which is likely smaller than his current drain bulkhead. If he makes the smaller one the primary..............it wont handle the Mag 12 either forcing the emergency into constant operation. That isnt making anything safer.;) If the current return is made the emergency, it will still overflow his tank if the primary gets clogged running a Mag 12 because it cant handle the pump either.;) Syphon sytems incorporate a drain that has to be partially closed to find the right balance along with a "larger" or equal sized emergency drain that is fully opened in the event of a mishap with the primary. Again the OP doesnt have that luxury because his biggest option for a drain already cant handle the return pump. I agree, I would add a 2nd drain for safety, but without a smaller return with his set up..........its a moot point.

Unless he is using 1/2" piping, there is no way an open siphon would not be able to handle a Mag 12. Even small RR tanks use at least 1" fittings, which means at least 1" pipe. With a 110 gallon tank,there will be at the very least 3' of head on a siphon (and probably more like 4'-5') flowing down into the sump. That is more flow than a mag 12 would put out at 0' of head (heck, its' pretty close to what a Mag 18 would put out at 0' of head), and unless the OP is using 2" pipe for the return, he's probably closer to 7 or 8' (dynamic head, obviously static would be lower).

I think I might be missing something about the OP's situation given you keep referring to siphon issues. I'm not sure how that comes into play in this situation, or how a smaller pump would address it. If the drain line becomes air locked, it doesn't really matter how much water the return is pumping, a flood will happen without an emergency.

Either way, float switches are prone to failure, and I would not trust one to prevent many thousands of dollars of damage, and possibly a catastrophic fire in my home. $20 of PVC pipe and fittings from Home Depot on the other hand would definitely fix the problem, seeing as a 1"+ open pipe can handle much greater flow than his return is putting out, and in my opinion it would be better to implement a permanent solution to the problem (an emergency drain making sure the tank will never overflow, and modifications to the primary drain, assuming it is a sub 2" Durso).

cap032
03/26/2013, 09:15 AM
[QUOTE=hillscp;21324878]I'm aware how a siphon system works having run a Herbie system for three years now.

I am not sure what you mean when you say "lose siphon". Can you please elaborate? As long as the pipe opening is below the surface and gravity is present water will travel down the pipe. My experience with Durso's is that if you over drive them they cycle between siphoning and sucking air (I had had one of those too). Since a siphon carries more water than a pipe sucking air (ie a broken siphon) something must have occurred to limit the amount of water going down the drain which caused water to pour out on the floor. I suppose the other option is that the pump started moving more water but that seems unlikely.

An open emergency would have prevented that flood. That is a fact.

A single drain with no emergency is a flood waiting to happen. That's another fact. QUOTE]

A drain.........will definately flow more with a syphon for sure. However at some point the size of the drain will be maxed out in terms of how much water it can syphon. The longer and the straighter the drop from the drain is, the more water it can syphon. However, the shorter the straight drop and the more bends within the pipework, the less water a drain can flow, syphon or no syphon. That is fact. In the OPs case, he had no plugged line which means that its very likely his drain lost syphon. (A drain can lose syphon......hence why it isnt safe to run a syphon system without an emergency drain). Im not sure why you dont understand/believe that. It is a fact. Very likely that the OP has several bends in his plumbing that have lessened what a 1" bulkhead can flow under syphon. When you run your Herbie, do you not use a valve to dial in your syphon at a perfect balance? In the OPs case, he had a syphon which obviously wasnt tuned for his plumbing, hence why he lost syphon. Id almost guarantee prior to this incident his water level in the overflow box was inconsistent, rising up and down. Now, coupled with that, "most tanks with a 1" drain have a 3/4" return". Obviously his 1" plumbing has issues handling his Mag 12. In a Herbie set up, the 3/4" would be the main drain, because obviously the emergency drain needs to be the bigger line. What exactly makes you think a 3/4" drain can handle flow that a 1" drain cant? So in otherwords, his 1" emergency drain would constantly be in use.........which is not what the Herbie system is supposed to be. You would be in the same position if that 1" drain ever got plugged..............water on the floor. If the OP was going to install a Herbie system, he would "still need a smaller pump that the primary drain can actually handle/find a balance with. You cant just throw any pump on a tank and expect your drains to handle it. At some point your drain will max out what it can syphon based on a number of factors. Those factors again, are determined by size, drop, and angles in the plumbing. Some users 1" plumbing can handle the Mag 12, some, such as the OPs cant. In your case, your drain can handle the flow its given and the occasional sucking you are getting is because your syphon is on the low end of how much water your drain can flow. If you lose syphon, its because your drain can nearly handle the flow wihout syphon. The OP is on the other end of the syphon, teetering on being able to handle the flow or not being able to handle the flow. In his case, when it cant, water on the floor. In your case, when it cant, its because it doesnt need to........gurggling noise. And again, I agree with you, I would definately add a second drain for safety........but I would still pair it with a smaller pump.

MrClam
03/26/2013, 12:56 PM
[QUOTE=cap032;21324569]Im suggesting the OP didnt have a plugged drain. He had too much pump for his overflow. Per the OP, there were no clogs. ;) QUOTE]

Unless I missed something the OP said he didnt see any clogs, but the facts point to a clog. If his pump pushed too much flow for the return pipe to handle it would have cause an issue immediately. As soon as he turned the system on after setup he would have had a flood. The fact that time went by necessitates that the drain was able to handle less flow, or the pump got stronger and pushed more flow. Its much more likely some algea built up in the pipe or a small snail got himself lodged in there and the OP just didnt see it.

But this is all academic as the OP has already made his decision and I hope it works out. :thumbsup:

SGT_York
03/26/2013, 01:15 PM
There were clogs there is no other rational explanation. Under no possibilities will a drain just not work like it has been in the past without something impacting it's operations. A siphon break would not flood as the increase in water height would restart the siphon. So logically only a clog would result in a flood. One exception is if this is a brand new setup which doesn't appear to be the case so I concure 100% with MrClam.

Also a ATO will do nothing to prevent this from happening it will only reduce the amount of flood by the water in the resevoir. By lowering the drain in the overflow you will reduce the risk of this happening again. A herbie drain is not severely impacted by the length of pipe under the gate valve, the water above the opening is a much higher factor in increasing flow. (a herbie does not siphon or pull water at all, it is a restricted drain the limits flow) The water above the opening pushes the water down the restriction the higher the water the more pressure and more flow. by lowering either a herbie or a durso you will have more water flow.

GroktheCube
03/26/2013, 01:17 PM
Cap, I think you're confused about how a siphon works. A submerged siphon will not "lose siphon" spontaneously because it reaches the maximum amount of flow it can carry. It will continue to carry that amount of flow, and in the case of a rising water level on the high side of the siphon, that amount of flow will continue to increase. A siphon will only break siphon when air enters the tube.

The reason you run an emergency drain with a Herbie (or Bean Animal, which uses siphon + air assist + emergency) is because it is not safe to have a tank without an emergency drain, it has nothing to do with the properties of a siphon.

cap032
03/26/2013, 03:22 PM
[QUOTE=cap032;21324569]Im suggesting the OP didnt have a plugged drain. He had too much pump for his overflow. Per the OP, there were no clogs. ;) QUOTE]

Unless I missed something the OP said he didnt see any clogs, but the facts point to a clog. If his pump pushed too much flow for the return pipe to handle it would have cause an issue immediately. As soon as he turned the system on after setup he would have had a flood. The fact that time went by necessitates that the drain was able to handle less flow, or the pump got stronger and pushed more flow. Its much more likely some algea built up in the pipe or a small snail got himself lodged in there and the OP just didnt see it.

But this is all academic as the OP has already made his decision and I hope it works out. :thumbsup:

Perhaps you might wish to contact an expert, Mr Bob Fenner on this subject. ;) You are wrong in stating it would have overflowed the moment he first plugged it in. There was no clog and the only logical explanation is that due to his plumbing set up, his drain was teetering on the limit of what it could handle. In this situation, whether you choose to believe or accept it, or not, the drain can either lose its syphon, or become overwhelmed. There is a reason for syphoning systems to have a valve to tune the syphon along with an emergency drain. You are correct in that the OP made a decision on how to deal with the problem. I hope it works out but obviously what he is doing will only prevent an overflow and doesnt really address/fix the problem of what happened.

cap032
03/26/2013, 03:33 PM
Cap, I think you're confused about how a siphon works. A submerged siphon will not "lose siphon" spontaneously because it reaches the maximum amount of flow it can carry. It will continue to carry that amount of flow, and in the case of a rising water level on the high side of the siphon, that amount of flow will continue to increase. A siphon will only break siphon when air enters the tube.

The reason you run an emergency drain with a Herbie (or Bean Animal, which uses siphon + air assist + emergency) is because it is not safe to have a tank without an emergency drain, it has nothing to do with the properties of a siphon.

Actually a drain can lose syphon. A syphon depends on water pressure, or weight to be created. Most overflows occur when power has been lost and then returned. The pump pushes water which covers the drain, but for some inexplicable reason, the pressure or weight of the water, upon occasion, doesnt create the needed syphon. The result is water on the floor. It would be interesting to know if the OP had a momentary loss of power on the evening of the overflow. And yes I understand the principles of a Herbie or the Bean. I never stated the emergency drain was for the syphon. The Herbie incorporates, wisely might I add, a larger emergency drain than a primary. This is for assurance if something goes wrong, the emergency drain can easily handle all of the flow. The OP doesnt have a larger drain to convert to an emergency. He has a smaller one, which defeats the purpose of the Herbie.

GroktheCube
03/26/2013, 06:34 PM
The only reason a siphon would fail to restart would be if it became air locked. That typically will only happen if there's a length of horizontal pipe. The same thing applies to a durso. If the OP has a long horizontal length of pipe, that needs to be fixed before anything else.

The size of the E drain with Herbie or BA does not matters, what matters is that it can handle the flow of the return. Many people use the same size primary and E drains, because if the primary can handle the flow partially closed, the E drain certainly can wide open. A 110 will not have bulkheads under 1", and a 1" pipe will comfortably handle his pump with a lot of room to spare. Two 1" mpt to slip fittings and 5' of 1" PVC pipe guarantees he won't have a flood.

cap032
03/26/2013, 08:11 PM
The only reason a siphon would fail to restart would be if it became air locked. That typically will only happen if there's a length of horizontal pipe. The same thing applies to a durso. If the OP has a long horizontal length of pipe, that needs to be fixed before anything else.

The size of the E drain with Herbie or BA does not matters, what matters is that it can handle the flow of the return. Many people use the same size primary and E drains, because if the primary can handle the flow partially closed, the E drain certainly can wide open. A 110 will not have bulkheads under 1", and a 1" pipe will comfortably handle his pump with a lot of room to spare. Two 1" mpt to slip fittings and 5' of 1" PVC pipe guarantees he won't have a flood.

You hit the nail on the head and thats what Ive been saying........the OPs plumbing is not adequate for a syphon system and he stated he didnt want to replumb. His system will syphon, but it will have issues maintaining that syphon with a Mag 12. If he isnt going to fix the plumbing and add an emergency drain..........the best thing would be to add a smaller pump and avoid a syphon alltogether. People keep stating "had to be something in the drain because a 1" drain can handle the flow". Well as you stated and I have been pointing out, thats 100% false. An improper drain setup is absolutely the problem here. A syphon system like the Herbie is great..........but not if its improperly set up. The same goes for a duroso.......especially a single duroso which isnt designed to be run in a syphon. Some people seem to not understand how much bends and horizontal piping affect drain systems. You mentioned "airlock" and I tend to agree. Ive felt all along that air got into the line........which it easily can when the drain line isnt set up correctly to handle a large amount of flow. As for the Herbie and Bean, I previously stated you need an emergency that is the same size or larger than the main, so Im not sure why you pointed that out to me. As for the OP, I was thinking he had a 3/4 return bh. If not, he could absolutely run a Herbie. My thought on that was you wouldnt be able to run a Mag 12 on a 3/4 primary and you wouldnt want the 3/4 as an e drain either.

cap032
03/27/2013, 08:07 AM
The only reason a siphon would fail to restart would be if it became air locked. That typically will only happen if there's a length of horizontal pipe. The same thing applies to a durso. If the OP has a long horizontal length of pipe, that needs to be fixed before anything else.

The size of the E drain with Herbie or BA does not matters, what matters is that it can handle the flow of the return. Many people use the same size primary and E drains, because if the primary can handle the flow partially closed, the E drain certainly can wide open. A 110 will not have bulkheads under 1", and a 1" pipe will comfortably handle his pump with a lot of room to spare. Two 1" mpt to slip fittings and 5' of 1" PVC pipe guarantees he won't have a flood.

Actually his 110 does have a 3/4" return, I knew I saw it somwhere. The OP mentioned in a thread in the DIY forums when asked about installing an E drain. So back to what I stated, a 3/4" primary drain would not handle a Mag 12 and you would not want a 1" primary with a smaller 3/4" as the e drain......because that isnt a safe set up. The OP would have to make the 3/4" the primary and use a smaller pump that drain could handle + use the 1" as the e drain, for a failsafe setup. Do you not agree?

GroktheCube
03/27/2013, 01:48 PM
Assuming a 36" drop (probably actually a good bit more with a 29" tall tank), a .75" tube will flow ~1100gph, so it should actually be able to handle the mag12 as a primary drain, just not with a lot of headroom. The best case scenario for the mag 12 as a return is about 1000 gph in this situation with 1.5 piping, 1 90* elbow, and 2 45* elbows. Realistically, it's probably a good bit less than that. I probably wouldn't do that, as it would only take minimal occlusion to cause the pump input to exceed what the drain could manage, but it's still far safer than what he's doing currently (no matter the size of the return pump).

If the mag 12 is currently coming into the tank through 3/4" plumbing, the OP definitely has a big problem if that caused a flood. If he's using 1" drain piping, it would need to be at least half occluded before it failed to keep up with a mag 12 through 3/4" piping.

MrClam
03/27/2013, 02:41 PM
[QUOTE=MrClam;21326972]

Perhaps you might wish to contact an expert, Mr Bob Fenner on this subject. ;) You are wrong in stating it would have overflowed the moment he first plugged it in. There was no clog and the only logical explanation is that due to his plumbing set up, his drain was teetering on the limit of what it could handle. In this situation, whether you choose to believe or accept it, or not, the drain can either lose its syphon, or become overwhelmed. There is a reason for syphoning systems to have a valve to tune the syphon along with an emergency drain. You are correct in that the OP made a decision on how to deal with the problem. I hope it works out but obviously what he is doing will only prevent an overflow and doesnt really address/fix the problem of what happened.

First of all I just want to point out to the OP that we are all in agreement that your best solution is to redo your plumbing to incorporate a dual drain system with the 3/4'' as the siphon and the 1'' as an emergency. That is the safest option.

Cap, I should have explained more clearly. The drain would have shown signs of a problem when it was first set up if the pipe couldnt handle the waterflow. By "immediate" i meant that it would not have worked fine for weeks and then suddenly a 40g flood in one day. That indicates that the ability of the drain to handle water flow suddenly decreased. This could either be a clog, or your argument that it lost siphon. You tell me I am wrong, but offer no evidence. In another post you say that "for some inexplicable reason" a siphon is not formed. That is not concrete evidence, nor does it even make a logical argument. A siphon will form if there is water pressure causing waterflow and there is no air being drawn into the system.

Let me explain where your argument is flawed. You say "his drain was teetering on the limit of what it could handle. In this situation, whether you choose to believe or accept it, or not, the drain can either lose its syphon, or become overwhelmed." However you have a false premise. What causes the siphon to fail or the drain to become overwhelmed? If the drain had not been overwhelmed for weeks, why does it suddenly reduce its ability to handle flow (enter rationality for obstruction). If a pipe approaches its maximum capacity why does that necessitate that it will suddenly stop allowing water through? Under high pressures and flow rates we could get into laminar vs turbulent flow ect. but as this is an open loop system at minimal pressure that is not likely the case.

hillscp
03/27/2013, 06:16 PM
I have actually seen a siphon system that wouldn't start because the end if the tube was too far under water in the sump. It was air locked. But it was like that 100% of the time until it was corrected, not hit or miss.

LouisianaReefer
07/04/2013, 08:58 PM
Does anyone have opinions about Lifereef overflow? This company claims never having a flood problem caused by one of their overflow systems in 25 years. It seems too good to be true.

Savant
07/05/2013, 06:42 AM
Having just assembled a basement sump with a Herbie system I have an observation that seems to be what you guys know but are saying in a very complicated manner.

Basically, when my return system restarts it DOES NOT establish siphon immediately, it takes perhaps a half a minute to flush the air out of the line and the siphon to take full effect. Keep in mind, for that period of time that my siphon is working to reestablish full flow to the sump, my return is still pumping full flow back into the tank, without my e-drain I would definitely, very quickly, flood the floor. If the OP's drain is a durso, the water level in the overflow is probably not much lower than the level in the tank and will not drop significantly during an interruption of return flow(e.g. power outage). If the OP is relying on full siphon to maintain proper drainage this sets the stage for a very fast flood event if there is any delay in the reestablishment of full siphon(e.g. airlock or debris passing through the drain line). JMTCW

LouisianaReefer
07/09/2013, 06:41 PM
I answered my own question re the Lifereef overflow. One person reported a flood when his return pump slowed down with its efficiency.