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View Full Version : Complete Noob Setting Up 29 Gallon Reef Tank, Need Advice!


wamps98
03/25/2013, 08:35 AM
Hey guys, I have been reading forums and been doing research and I've seen other threads similar to mine, but I am just curious what I do and don't need. I work at a local pet store and am very experienced with fresh water but we don't sell any saltwater fish, just supplies. So... Long story short, I will be soon getting rid of my FW fish in my 29 Gallon and would like to make it into a Reef tank with maybe a clown and 2 goby and a CUC. Looking to make sure I get the right stuff yet.

I have so far:

29 Gallon Tank
Aqua Tech filter, its older and never had a problem.( Don't know if I need this)
Coral Life 24" T5 Dual light
100watt or 150watt heater, have both.
Have hydrometer at work
Have water test kit for trates/trites/ammonia/ph/high ph

Planning to get:

Sand
Powerhead
Rock(most likely 90% dry live rock/ 10% live)
Instant ocean reef crystals


Unsure to get:

Protein Skimmer

1.Some people say get Live Sand, others say its a gimmick just buy sand from Home Depot. Which is it?

2. If I do 90% dry live rock/ 10% live, would it be beneficial to add something like purple tech or something similar etc...

3. If i get a protein skimmer, how often do you have to do water changes?

4.Can I use water from my established FW tank and add some salt to help cycle?

5. Don't know if I need my filter... some say yes others no...

My plan was to get rid of my FW fish/gravel/decorations. Fill the tank up add necessary salt and let run for a week. Add 90% of my dry rock/ 10% of live rock, then add non live sand and use some purple tech possibly to help cycle the tank. Let this run for a month or two. Have heard some people use a cocktail shrimp to help. After a month or two add a fish see how he does. Please help me and advise what you would change about my plan. Thanks guys!

Fredso
03/25/2013, 08:59 AM
I'm fairly new to the hobby myself and went through exact same scenerio as you. here is what I did and everything came together successfully.
1. thoroughly cleaned tank with water and bleach.
2. filled w/ water and a little bleach and let sit for 2 days. then washed out again with distilled water only (no bleach)
3. added sand(from pet store) and salt water (from pet store) with a few live rock. i did use same filter setup from FW.
4. let water cycle for 3 weeks, then added a few fish.
5. periodically checked all water parameters until consistent. (water changes and top offs are crucial)

A year later I have a healthy variety of fish and now getting into corals. I am now gonna buy a protien skimmer.

patience kept me from going broke getting to this point.

Cymonous
03/25/2013, 09:30 AM
I would make sure to clean out the tank with 10% bleach and water. Rinse it out and let it dry for a couple days so the bleach dries out. Don't add any water or anything till the tank does not smell like bleach. You can add your saltwater next, then rock, then sand around it. You can use your filter system, but do not re-use the filter media. I would not use the purple tech, just add a piece of shrimp to start your cycle.

You can get away with not using a skimmer, just keep up on water changes. Do not use the water from your FW setup to start the tank. Use fresh made RO/DI with salt.

coralsnaked
03/25/2013, 09:57 AM
1. Sand – Do not use sand from hardware store. This playground type sand if full of silicates and can cause a very large algae outbreak during and after the cycle. You can get dry sand but be sure you use reef grade sand.
2. Purple up is expensive and not needed. Just be sure to keep your foundation elements up to params (IE) Ca = 450, Alk = 9.0, Mg = 1400, but no needed until after cycle, as it is better to cycle w/ lights off to prevent algae growth.
3. If this is a cube style tank forget the protein skimmer and do 10% per week water changes and run a reactor. If this is a long w/ a sump then a skimmer would be beneficial and you could reduce water changes to 5% weekly. But water changes are beneficial to reef tanks.
4. NO No No do not utilize your fresh water from current tank to remix to salt water. Too many issues w/ that to even get into. Utilize only pure RODI to mix w/ your salt.
5. You will need to empty, clean w/ bleach and run w/ clean water for a week. And if copper was ever introduced into that freshwater system (Meds or fish treatments) then that tank may have issues w’ sensitive saltwater livestock. Once it is well cleaned and rinsed. Then place your rock, then sand and fill w/ new premixed salt water (Do Not Mix in Tank). No need to run any filtration at this point. Throw in some Ammonia source. Raw shrimp you need 10 grams per 25 gallons. Run your cycle and monitor thru testing to assure you reach an initial Ammonia spike of > 5ppm and remove ammonia source, and then monitor thru completion of cycle by noting a large spike in Nitrates and 0.0 Ammonia and Nitrites. This could take weeks w/ dry rock. Do a thirty % water change and introduce ½ of CUC and continue testing ect… going very slow.

Your tank will hold only 3-4 small fish, your CUC and 2 cleaner shrimp. You can start to introduce only soft corals for 1st couiple of months. Better to wait a while before adding stony corals. i like to have my entire livestock in place prior to doing this. You need 100 watts of T-5 lighting to grow LPS corals and more for SPS. You should have around 500 GPH power head in tank and around 240 GPH for filtration return. I would not put more than 1 – 2” of sand in tank and would utilize around 45 lbs of rock in the display.

Oh yeah! Ditch the hydrometer and spend $50 on a good NSW AT Refractometer

Good luck !

wamps98
03/25/2013, 11:24 AM
Thanks for the help so far guys! I just stopped at my saltwater LFS and they have dry white looking rock, then they have live rock for 6.99lb in a tank, and they have another live rock w/coralline algae, but was 9.99lb and said they haven't been getting it. Is the live rock the same as the live rock w/coralline algae, just hasn't developed the coralline algae yet? Do you need the coralline algae before you can add corals?

FTDelta
03/25/2013, 11:41 AM
Ditch the filter and invest in a really good skimmer. Does a better job keeping your tank clean. Water changes should be done weekly. Invest in an ATO unit (auto-top off)

Your test kit is not for testing saltwater. You need to get test kit for saltwater use only.

I recommend Saifert brand.

coralsnaked
03/25/2013, 01:21 PM
Thanks for the help so far guys! I just stopped at my saltwater LFS and they have dry white looking rock, then they have live rock for 6.99lb in a tank, and they have another live rock w/coralline algae, but was 9.99lb and said they haven't been getting it. Is the live rock the same as the live rock w/coralline algae, just hasn't developed the coralline algae yet? Do you need the coralline algae before you can add corals?

Dry rock is well DRY and needs to be cured as well as cycled.

Live rock is cycled but not necesaarily cured.

Cured means it has been subjected to saltwater long enough to be mostly free from phosphates as they will leech out into the weater. Cured also means the rock has been scrubbed from all little sponges and things that tend to die off and leech Nitrates and PO4 into water.

When you ook at the rock, look for little black spots on it to see if it has dead sponges and the like still on it. Do they shake it when they take it ouit of the tank, and all kind of detritus comes off it, or is it clean. Smell, Yes SMELL the rock. If it smells rotten or fishy smelling then it is not cured and probably only partially cycled. If it kind of smells like the ocean or no smell then it is probably well cycled and at least mostly cured.

Live rock w/ a good coralline algae on it means it has been in water long enough to grow the algae. And probably means it is mostly cured as well.

wamps98
03/25/2013, 01:53 PM
Is it okay to use dry rock with pieces of non cured wet live rock to cycle my tank?

wamps98
03/25/2013, 06:34 PM
Okay, so I think my route will be a layer of base dry rock on the bottom layer, then on top of that I will use cured wet live rock to build up on top of the dry rock base.

My next question is about water changes. I was reading in the stickies to mark where the top perfect salinity is, but how do you know how much salt to add to your mixed water when you add that water back after doing a water change. say I siphon 2 gallons, just make sure I have premixed 2 gallons with a 1/2 cup of salt, so 1 cup for 2 gallons premixed before doing a water change?

silleb
03/25/2013, 06:36 PM
One piece of advice, patience! I've see too many starters rush into it. Allow things to cycle.

kendrid
03/25/2013, 06:57 PM
In regards to live sand, I bought a bag of Caribsea love sand and it had living creatures in it. Des that matter with live rock, probably not but it was more than just dry sand.

As others have said, go slow. I am still cycling and in a week I will start to quarantine a fish or two.

wamps98
03/26/2013, 07:25 AM
Thanks guys, I'm in the planning stage right now. The first week of may I plan to have my tank all cleaned out already and I will add my dry rock, sand, live/cured rock on top of that, and salt water. I plan to let that run for at least a month and make sure all my params are good. Then after maybe a month or so add a fish if everything is good and then probably let that run with a fish for a long time as well before even thinking about corals yet. Just really want to focus on water conditions before I introduce any livestock.

FTDelta
03/26/2013, 07:55 AM
Regarding your question on how much salt mix to add, you do realize you don't add it directly to the DT right? If you know this is not right, read what the bucket recommendations per X amount of gallons of saltwater you plan on having on hand for future water changes and whatnot.

rogermccray
03/26/2013, 08:48 AM
Is it okay to use dry rock with pieces of non cured wet live rock to cycle my tank?

Yeah, that is a good way, your cycle will take longer than if you just by all live rock but as you have seen that's a more expensive way.

Check out online dealers too for rock, there are lots of places that have good quality rock. Tampa Bay saltwater has some amazing live rock but you also pay the premium for that, i believe bulk reef supply also has live rock available, along with dry rocks

marcorocks also has some nice dry rock.

I want to restate what has already been said and take your time. read and absorb before you run out and buy.

coralsnaked
03/26/2013, 09:50 AM
Okay, so I think my route will be a layer of base dry rock on the bottom layer, then on top of that I will use cured wet live rock to build up on top of the dry rock base.

My next question is about water changes. I was reading in the stickies to mark where the top perfect salinity is, but how do you know how much salt to add to your mixed water when you add that water back after doing a water change. say I siphon 2 gallons, just make sure I have premixed 2 gallons with a 1/2 cup of salt, so 1 cup for 2 gallons premixed before doing a water change?

If you are going to mix dry rock w/ live rock...well IMO it is just wasting money on the live rock, because base ((dry rock) rock does not need to be seeded by live rock to cycle and cure. And by using any significant % of dry rock, this is what will set the time limit for the cycle. Therefore using part live has little if any affect.

Salt water should never be mixed in the tank. And mixing to a Specific Gravity or SG is done w/ pure RODI and the salt mix. Each different type of salt mix will have specicfic directions on how much to add. They will usually mix you up to about 1.023 and ask you to test w/ refractometer, and then add another much smaller amount to get you to 1.026 for reef tanks. Check out this video on mixing salt water for beginners.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lghkIaxVuxk

Now as far as adding water back into tank there are two different things you are doing.

1. When you change water out by taking water out of the display tank DT then you always replace it with the exact amount of pre mixed salt water.

2. Topping off the tank between water changes is when you add plain RODI to the DT to keep the water volume up and not change the SG of the tank. Think about it. When salt water evaporates it leaves behing the salt. So when your DT water evaporates it causes the SG to increase. And if you add saltwater back into the DT then you increase the SG even more. This can have catastrophic affects on your livestock. So you need to keep RODI around to constantly add enough back into the DT to counter affect the evaporation from the tank. Depending on tank size and conditions and ambiant temperature of room as well as type of lighting, a tank can easily require 4 gals of RODI per 100 gal of DT per week. Some more and some less.

What I suggest is to top off DT w/ RODI prior to doing a water change w/ pre mixed slat water. Then there is less chance of making an error on the amount of premixed salt water to add back in at the back end of the change. You start w/ a full DT and end w/ a ful DT.

howaboutme
03/26/2013, 10:29 AM
Salt water should never be mixed in the tank.

Why not? If the tank is new w/ no livestock, I see no reason and have heard/read plenty of people that do. Sure, once the tank is stocked, you need to mix fsw elsewhere.

I mixed the sw in my dt with the powerheads when I started up, no issues arose. The only thing I would recommend is to mix it before adding substrate. If not, you run the risk of the salt not dissolving and it may affect your SG reading a bit. But since, in theory, you're cycling and have no livestock, some swings in SG is not harmful.

Also, plenty of people seed their base rock w/ a small portion of fully cured LR from LFS to jump start the cycle. Just make sure it's not been out of water for too long or you mind as well buy uncured LR from online. This is what I did and I barely had a spike. It's also more economical.

There are many ways to this hobby, OP just has to decide what's best after getting different opinions and experiences. I think that's what makes the hobby fun.

wamps98
03/26/2013, 11:25 AM
You guys have been such a big help so far! I saw at petsmart some topfin oolite aragonite sand 30lbs, some people say rinse so it doesn't cloud the water, others say not to rinse because you are rinsing away the good minerals. Is it ok to not rinse the sand, and just let the sand settle? I don't mind if it is cloudy for a few weeks while it is cycling.

wamps98
03/26/2013, 05:43 PM
After doing some reading it seems like the most important things to test for besides amm/trites/trates, are magnesium,alk, phosphates? Once the tank is cycled and up and running, do you have to add chemicals to maintain the correct parameters, or do frequent water changes and instant ocean reef crystals maintain the mag/alk/phos's pretty consistent? I am going to purchase a reef test kit before I set anything up, but not sure what an affordable option is to test for these 3 things because it seems they all come separate...

Aaeolien
03/26/2013, 07:17 PM
my small bit of advice since I wish I had done it is to do all your aquascaping before you put any saltwater in the tank. Very easy to do if you are using mostly dry rock. It'll give you the opportunity to glue stuff together using reef safe epoxy and much easier to really get some cool shapes and caves and the like. I wish I had done it when I setup my 29g. I dont regret how mine looks now but i have seen some very awesome aquascapes that I am sure were done mostly with dry rock and epoxy. :)

tphill
03/26/2013, 07:30 PM
I believe Ca is also an important test. I use API for pH, Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrate, and Salifert for Phosphate, Ca, Mag, and Alk.

howaboutme
03/26/2013, 07:35 PM
The reef tests are not necessary during cycling so no need to rush to get them. And definitely don't dose until you know exactly what's consuming what. A new tank will have wild swings, dosing might be premature, especially if you don't have corals yet. Get to know your tank first.

Paralith10
03/26/2013, 07:38 PM
A canister filter wouldent be a bad idea aswell.

howaboutme
03/26/2013, 08:03 PM
A canister filter wouldent be a bad idea aswell.

A canister filter is not usually used in saltwater tanks. You can use it in certain times but if you use it full time, you need to clean it daily/often. If not, it traps nitrates. Skimmer and live rock should be your main sources of filtration.

wamps98
03/26/2013, 08:16 PM
Out of experience what chemicals do you guys add and how often? I'm feeling pretty comfortable now, but am still very nervous about keeping the proper parameters to maintain and have corals that thrive eventually.

Paralith10
03/26/2013, 08:41 PM
what would be a good filter for a 30g frag tank? my father as you guys might know as herbie suggested putting in a fluval 306 canister filter instead of the pump i have in it now. i had some chaeto in it for a little but it was just too messy and hard to deal with. he also suggested getting one of those tunze 9002 protein filters. what would be my best bet? keep in mind the water level is only 8" in the back. its an advanced acrylics custom tank and everything is built in the back.

FTDelta
03/27/2013, 07:06 AM
Why not? If the tank is new w/ no livestock, I see no reason and have heard/read plenty of people that do. Sure, once the tank is stocked, you need to mix fsw elsewhere.

I mixed the sw in my dt with the powerheads when I started up, no issues arose. The only thing I would recommend is to mix it before adding substrate. If not, you run the risk of the salt not dissolving and it may affect your SG reading a bit. But since, in theory, you're cycling and have no livestock, some swings in SG is not harmful.

Also, plenty of people seed their base rock w/ a small portion of fully cured LR from LFS to jump start the cycle. Just make sure it's not been out of water for too long or you mind as well buy uncured LR from online. This is what I did and I barely had a spike. It's also more economical.

There are many ways to this hobby, OP just has to decide what's best after getting different opinions and experiences. I think that's what makes the hobby fun.

You need to make sure your salinity is within acceptable range that's why. Most folks make their SW in separate container for that reason.

rogermccray
03/27/2013, 07:33 AM
You need to make sure your salinity is within acceptable range that's why. Most folks make their SW in separate container for that reason.

Which can be done inside the tank as well, but there is a point here. If you put straight up ro water in the tank and have live rock in there then you are going to kill anything on the live rock. You can mix the water in the tank if you only have dead rock or if it is empty. Now remember if it is empty you can't fill it all the way to the top because when you add the rock it raises the level of the water.

howaboutme
03/27/2013, 07:50 AM
my small bit of advice since I wish I had done it is to do all your aquascaping before you put any saltwater in the tank. Very easy to do if you are using mostly dry rock. It'll give you the opportunity to glue stuff together using reef safe epoxy and much easier to really get some cool shapes and caves and the like. I wish I had done it when I setup my 29g. I dont regret how mine looks now but i have seen some very awesome aquascapes that I am sure were done mostly with dry rock and epoxy. :)

This is good advice. I do not have my rocks secured, other than gravity and kind of wish I did. When you begin to aquascape w/o water, it's deceiving how secure the rocks are because of gravity. Once you add water, you'll realize (maybe I should have realized earlier) how light the rocks actually are and how easily they will float off of the rocks below. You should think about what livestock you'll have and if any of them will move rocks. That said, there are advantages to not gluing rocks (only works well in smaller tanks w/ not a huge amt of rocks) such as the ability to move them for cleaning, re-aquascaping or to catch fish.

Also, do not put the rocks on top of sand. Do rock first on glass or egg crate (many ways to do this) and then do substrate. Reason is...there are livestock that will dig and this may shift your rock and cause a rock slide.


Which can be done inside the tank as well, but there is a point here. If you put straight up ro water in the tank and have live rock in there then you are going to kill anything on the live rock. You can mix the water in the tank if you only have dead rock or if it is empty. Now remember if it is empty you can't fill it all the way to the top because when you add the rock it raises the level of the water.

Yes, I may have forgot to mention, don't do this w/ LR, just base rock as I did. I added my LR after I mixed the sw in the DT. Just don't forget about the displacement.