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fio1022
03/25/2013, 03:43 PM
I've have a 20g QT,twin bio wheel filter and heater set up for several months.
I have lost too many fish to list but all losses appeared healthy before putting into QT.
I have not treated this tank for ich because no fish showed any signs of ich.The only thing I did notice is some fish were gasping at times
Questions:
Can fish die from ich without any physical signs(spots or scratching)
Can fish die rapidly from disease without symptoms ?(1-2 days)
I've been holding off from treating because i'm not if its ich and
once treated I know equipment can't be used for anything else.
Does this go as far as a refractometer?

Jstdv8
03/25/2013, 04:47 PM
how is the surface aggitation in the tank? Are the bio wheels making a lot of ripples?
Also are you testing frequently for ammonia?
How long have the filters been up and running with a feeding going on?
Its a good idea to keep the filters in your DT for a while so they can build up beneficial bacteria. Then add it to the QT before you add your fish.

fio1022
03/25/2013, 08:06 PM
Tank has been fully cycled for 3 months.I've been checking ammonia and nitrite several times a week.Both zero.
Surface agitation appears good.
I'm going to treat I just cant decide on hypo or copper.Leaning more towards hypo because I'm paranoid about contaminating dt.

abell
03/25/2013, 08:10 PM
Heater could be removing more oxygen then the bio wheel are creating. If you can check with a local club or store for a meter to check dissolved oxygen. I start there being there gasping a little.

AT_Hiker
03/25/2013, 08:17 PM
If fish have been dying in the tank you should empty it, sterilize it and all bio-wheels, heaters, and anything else used in the tank with bleach. Re-cycle and start again. Something like marine velvet could be in the tank and wiping out everything you put in it.

Jstdv8
03/25/2013, 09:43 PM
Also I think in order to consider it cycled and have enough bacteria to support fish wouldn't you have to be feeding the tank the whole 3 months? Otherwise bacteria is self regulating and will only build up an amount sufficient to deal with the load being given.
I could be wrong on this but this is how I've understood it.

MrTuskfish
03/26/2013, 09:12 AM
I've have a 20g QT,twin bio wheel filter and heater set up for several months.
I have lost too many fish to list but all losses appeared healthy before putting into QT.
I have not treated this tank for ich because no fish showed any signs of ich.The only thing I did notice is some fish were gasping at times
Questions:
Can fish die from ich without any physical signs(spots or scratching)
Can fish die rapidly from disease without symptoms ?(1-2 days)
I've been holding off from treating because i'm not if its ich and
once treated I know equipment can't be used for anything else.
Does this go as far as a refractometer?

Fish, like anything else, can die for countless reasons. IMO, we hear about ich so much because its common, visible, treatable and contagious. (And I think much of that ich is really velvet) Ich is only one parasite that can kill fish. There are other deadly parasites and many deadly conditions (visible or not) that we know now now nothing about. I'd do some serious reading on fish health. Read the stickies in the disease forum, get a couple of good books, etc.

I assume your reference to equipment not being usable after treating refers to the old myth that copper stays in the tank seams and kills future fish. This is complete nonsense. A tank, and any other standard (non-porous) equipment just needs a vinegar wipe-down and its fine to use again. Avoid using anything in your DT that has been in your QT without completely drying or sterilizing.

fio1022
03/26/2013, 12:11 PM
At this point I don't know what it is.
I leaning towards Ich.
I going to give hypo salinity a shot.
If it is velvet ,would hypo take care of that as well?
This QT took almost 3 months to cycle,so I really dont want start over.Unless necessary.

wooden_reefer
03/26/2013, 05:01 PM
At this point I don't know what it is.
I leaning towards Ich.
I going to give hypo salinity a shot.
If it is velvet ,would hypo take care of that as well?
This QT took almost 3 months to cycle,so I really dont want start over.Unless necessary.

Nearly all cycles, irrespective of size, should take about 20-35 days.


The method, submerged or wet-dry, temperature, aeration, circulation, the ideal level of ammonia will decide, but it usually takes 20-35 days.

Sk8r
03/26/2013, 05:42 PM
How are you acclimating the fish? If you leave them in an open bag for over 30 minutes, the ammonia in the bag can kill them, but the deaths may not happen for several days. Adjust the qt salinity to the store salinity in advance of purchase, do not open the bag until you're ready to move them, test the bag salinity, and if a match or within .002, put them right across without drip. Read the sticky on acclimation.

fio1022
03/26/2013, 06:00 PM
I lowered salinity about a month ago to match LFS thinking that was the cause.I must have been in denial.
Basically I set up an observation tank when I should have practiced proper quarantining methods.All because I was impatient.
Well several fish have passed through this QT into the main DT.
With that said, I'm very concerned that main DT could be infected.DT shows no signs of trouble and all fish appear happy and healthy but....
Getting all fish out would be a nightmare.

wooden_reefer
03/26/2013, 06:17 PM
How are you acclimating the fish? If you leave them in an open bag for over 30 minutes, the ammonia in the bag can kill them, but the deaths may not happen for several days. Adjust the qt salinity to the store salinity in advance of purchase, do not open the bag until you're ready to move them, test the bag salinity, and if a match or within .002, put them right across without drip. Read the sticky on acclimation.

Yes, the basic science in this is that ammonia is much more toxic as ph rises.

So even if you dilute the bag water with tank water that has zero ammonia but high ph, the ammonia in the bag can still become more toxic than without the tank water getting inside the bag.

GroktheCube
03/26/2013, 06:42 PM
Why not keep using QT as QT (observation), and use tank transfer to make sure incoming fish don't have ich? Tank transfer can be done with something as simple as buckets or rubbermaids, and is a sure thing that only takes two weeks and change, without having to deal with the challenges hypo and copper present.

Have you been doing anything to keep the filter in the QT cycled?

Ich can be present in the gills and unseen, but it sounds like something else is going on. Gasping at the surface is classic ammonia poisoning.

fio1022
03/26/2013, 07:15 PM
Why not keep using QT as QT (observation), and use tank transfer to make sure incoming fish don't have ich? Tank transfer can be done with something as simple as buckets or rubbermaids, and is a sure thing that only takes two weeks and change, without having to deal with the challenges hypo and copper present.

Have you been doing anything to keep the filter in the QT cycled?

Ich can be present in the gills and unseen, but it sounds like something else is going on. Gasping at the surface is classic ammonia poisoning.

Past fish that have died seam fine for first couple days.After that point they appear lethargic and breathing heavy,not at surface though.
I have 4 chromis that survived but were twitching at times.
As of now SG is down to 1.013 and fish seams much more active (no twitching or heavy breathing).
Fish presently in QT are 4 chromis and a 6 line wrasse.
The filtration I'm relying on is,a twin bio wheel w/two filter cartridges.
Zero ammonia and zero nitrite.
Hypo seems to be best option right now.I have ato,seperate W/C container. already in place and functioning.
Just hoping Dt wont be an issue down the road.

fio1022
03/29/2013, 12:56 PM
Day 3 into hypo and chromis are very active and eating like pigs.
The sixline however is always hiding and I have yet to see him eat.
Still looks healthy when I can catch a glimpse at him.