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View Full Version : What to do with several tons of aragonite <200 microns


WestMariculture
03/25/2013, 11:40 PM
My company (West Mariculture) washes, grades, and packages oolitic aragonite for sale. During this process, all material less than 200 microns is rinsed out. I currently have at least one ton of this fine material, possibly more. It looks a lot like several of the powdered aragonite products being sold for dosing reef tanks. I'm not sure that's very effective, but haven't spent a lot of time investigating it.

What do you think? Any suggestions on using the material?

Crusinjimbo
03/26/2013, 05:02 AM
Possibly bonding it with a reef safe agent to make reef "live rock"??:confused::confused:

fishgate
03/26/2013, 05:34 AM
No ideas, but maybe someone will see your post and make a PM offer to you to buy some? ;)

WestMariculture
03/26/2013, 07:21 AM
It's too fine for standard aragocrete. It makes the mix very crumbly and unstable.

If someone wants some, let me know. Pay for shipping and it's yours. I would just like to see someone using it.

DHyslop
03/26/2013, 09:43 AM
It's not at all effective, just another of the many snake oils in the industry.

WestMariculture
03/26/2013, 07:51 PM
Snake oil?!? In this industry? Whaaaaa?!? :eek2:

Yeah, figured as much. If the sand really dissolved that quickly, it would be almost pointless to use as a sand bed.

WestMariculture
03/26/2013, 08:26 PM
I did get a PM, but can't respond due to site restrictions until I have enough posts.

aandfsoccr04
03/26/2013, 08:44 PM
ten posts before you can send a private message.

WestMariculture
03/26/2013, 08:46 PM
Um, yeah...that's what it said. (that's 5 :headwally:)

GrimReefer555
03/26/2013, 09:02 PM
They buying it? If so, what are they going to do with it? If you guys don't mind me being nosy, I mean curious...

WestMariculture
03/26/2013, 09:05 PM
That's what I'm hoping to figure out. Too much "waste" material to toss. Aragonite is such an important part of the reef hobby, it just seems wrong to discard tons of it, even if it is too fine to use as a substrate.

GrimReefer555
03/26/2013, 09:12 PM
I would think it would make a great deep sand bed in a refugium, maybe with a layer of larger sand on top. The surface area on that sand must be huge...

WestMariculture
03/26/2013, 09:20 PM
Surface area is huge, but I think you would end up with it packing down too much. There are two reasons it's graded with the smallest size at 200microns:

1. Smaller grain size will get blown around too much

2. Smaller particles will clog the sand bed. Deep sand beds aren't just about having a sand bed that's X inches deep. It's about having a sand bed with the proper sand (grain size and shape...oolitic to be accurate) to allow for water to reach deep enough into the bed for nitrification, and allow for small amounts of denitrification lower in the bed. If the sand bed is clogged, by either small grains of sand or detritus, it fails to allow proper water flow and you end up with anoxic conditions that will be very detrimental.

It may be useful as an additive to a mud substrate in a refugium. Possibly add a 50/50 mix of aragonite fines and mud. The sand is high in calcium and minerals and would significantly reduce the amount of mud needed, since it's so darn expensive.

Reefmedic79
03/26/2013, 09:28 PM
Calcium Reactor? Fluidized sandbed? couple possible uses I can think of.

Borchers
03/26/2013, 09:33 PM
I say Refugium Mud as well. Mix it 50/50 with larger agronite. Then add to the fuge. Could also be mixed with epoxy and used to make false sand bottoms and walls. Seen it before. Looks nice but once it's in it's in!

GrimReefer555
03/26/2013, 10:06 PM
Surface area is huge, but I think you would end up with it packing down too much. There are two reasons it's graded with the smallest size at 200microns:

1. Smaller grain size will get blown around too much

2. Smaller particles will clog the sand bed. Deep sand beds aren't just about having a sand bed that's X inches deep. It's about having a sand bed with the proper sand (grain size and shape...oolitic to be accurate) to allow for water to reach deep enough into the bed for nitrification, and allow for small amounts of denitrification lower in the bed. If the sand bed is clogged, by either small grains of sand or detritus, it fails to allow proper water flow and you end up with anoxic conditions that will be very detrimental.

It may be useful as an additive to a mud substrate in a refugium. Possibly add a 50/50 mix of aragonite fines and mud. The sand is high in calcium and minerals and would significantly reduce the amount of mud needed, since it's so darn expensive.


Makes sense, I'm sure there is a very fine balance of flow verse surface area. Now that we found the mud option, you just have to start producing and market your new Mariculture Miracle Mud (tm pending).

slavver01
03/26/2013, 10:12 PM
I was gonna also say the sand covered with epoxy option. I look ve the look on f fine sand but it blows around way too much

WestMariculture
03/27/2013, 06:36 AM
This sand is ultra-fine. You know the silt that is rinsed out of aragonite sand before you put it in your tank? This is THAT stuff...the fine silt.

It's too fine for a calcium reactor, unless you had the flow very low. Same for a fluidized bed.

I've read that aragonite is good for plants (terrestrial, not necessarily aquatic), because it provide calcium and trace elements in a highly soluble source without the magnesium problems associated with the standard calcium source of limestone. Anyone want some to try on their garden or plants maybe? I would bet tomatoes would benefit from the extra calcium.

uny2bld
03/27/2013, 07:03 AM
Surface area is huge, but I think you would end up with it packing down too much. There are two reasons it's graded with the smallest size at 200microns:

1. Smaller grain size will get blown around too much

2. Smaller particles will clog the sand bed. Deep sand beds aren't just about having a sand bed that's X inches deep. It's about having a sand bed with the proper sand (grain size and shape...oolitic to be accurate) to allow for water to reach deep enough into the bed for nitrification, and allow for small amounts of denitrification lower in the bed. If the sand bed is clogged, by either small grains of sand or detritus, it fails to allow proper water flow and you end up with anoxic conditions that will be very detrimental.

It may be useful as an additive to a mud substrate in a refugium. Possibly add a 50/50 mix of aragonite fines and mud. The sand is high in calcium and minerals and would significantly reduce the amount of mud needed, since it's so darn expensive.

Aha! I was wondering why I didn't get a pm back. I really like what I am seeing here. I was asking for some bc I also don't like to see anything go to waste and I appreciate seeing a company concerned with this. I also like to see good info (especially your note about grain size in dsbs) This is something I talk about frequently with my local reef club.

I actually wanted to use it for a number of applications that you and others have already listed including the notes about terrestrial gardening.

After I saw your post, I called my local greenhouse and spoke with the owner who is a botanist. I have been doing business with him for two decades and he's super knowledgeable. He said that it would be great for mixing in with soil for certain plants (I forget which ones bc I tend to talk to him for a long time and lose track of the topic - lol)

I also wanted to try and use it for a fluidized bed filter. I think I can design one that it would work well in. And lastly, I thought it would be great for an additive to a dsb although the ratio Dr Shimek suggests this grain size in very small proportion to the rest of the dsb - I think I will allow for some "wiggle room though ;)

I have a feeling that up to 15% of this would be a good experiment for a dsb. I think that in Dr Shimek's original research, this size wasn't readily available so he may not have had the opportunity to test it's results.

Thanks again for the offer on just shipping. Let me know how much it will cost because I'd love to try some!

:)

username in use
03/27/2013, 07:35 AM
Research a way to compress it into solid pellets. Then you could use the solid pellets in calcium reactors.

TheAquatect
03/27/2013, 07:43 AM
You could make some rock wall molds and mix the stuff with epoxy to produce some pretty solid rock walls in standard sizes. Heck if you design it right they could be modular to fit various tank sizes. The fine sand should produce a smooth texture that you can modify with nooks and crannies via the mold or larger grade sand.

I've done basic versions of this just digging a hole in the sand and lining it with epoxy for reptile tanks but a nice mold, taken from reef rock for example, might be pretty sweet.

WestMariculture
03/27/2013, 07:59 AM
Fertrell is a supplier of organic and natural products for soil and animals. They sell raw aragonite as a soil amendment and for feed additives for poultry. Here's a link: http://www.fertrell.com/aragonite.htm

The aragonite they sell is raw, unwashed sand. The waste material I have is just the fine particles rinsed from the raw material. I would think it would actually act better than raw aragonite for soil because of the grain size and additional surface area.

A local fresh vegetables producer is testing some on plants for me. He's doing a test with fertilizer, fertilizer and aragonite, and just aragonite. I'll have a better idea of how it works after the growing season.

The recommended usage for aragonite on soil is to use it as a top dressing. In this capacity it does the following:
1. Helps retain soil nitrogen
2. Creates additional nitrogen as bacteria colonize the aragonite, run through their lifecycle, and die, leaving nitrogen behind.
3. The high solubility of aragonite, breaking down at a lower pH than calcite, provides a ready supply of calcium and numerous trace elements for plants. With calcite, the magnesium gets taken up by the plants and blocks both calcium and other nutrients from being absorbed.

I know this is a bit off-topic on a reef forum, but certainly of interest to those that may want some material for their garden.

As for getting some, send payment via PayPal to ebay@westmariculture. Medium flat rate: $11.30. Large flat rate: $15.30. That's exactly what shipping will cost.

For anyone reading this post that may be concerned I'm violating any "selling" rules, please take into account that this isn't a "sale", but rather an offer for free product.

I've looked into pelletizing the aragonite and I haven't found a solution. If anyone has any ideas, please let me know. I have to be careful if using heat and/or pressure to create pellets because aragonite can easily change state to calcite with heat, pressure, or time. This is the reason some suppliers actually sell calcite under the name aragonite because they're either unaware that it has changed state or have chosen to ignore that fact. There are areas in the Bahamas that have nothing but calcite because it's aged long enough. It looks like aragonite, being oolitic and in the ocean, but that doesn't mean it is. The only way to tell for sure is with a Feigl's Solution test.

WestMariculture
03/27/2013, 08:02 AM
The fresh vegetable grower is also testing some with compost. Due to the high porosity and ability to colonize bacteria, mixing some with compost may help break it down faster and provide higher calcium, other nutrients, and maybe higher nitrogen. Once again, I won't have an idea on this until later in the season.

Sugar Magnolia
03/27/2013, 08:10 AM
I was going to suggest gardening as well. It is pretty beneficial in the garden.

You won't be able to use this forum to sell your leftover sand as it's against the UA. You'll need 50 posts and 90 days membership in order to sell in our classified forum.

WestMariculture
03/27/2013, 08:12 AM
I'm not selling it. I'm giving it away. I just ask for shipping costs. If it's against the rules to do that, I'll modify the post.

rlpardue
04/04/2013, 11:19 AM
I think I actually have a perfect test application for it. I've been looking around for very very small-grained sand to use in a Remote Deep Sand Bed (RDSB). None of the commercial sands that I've seen offered meet Ron Shimek's recommended (itty bitty) grain size of "about 1/16th mm (0.063mm) to about 1/8th mm (0.125 mm)". I'll settle for .2 mm though. That's as small as I've been able to find.

Sand grains that are 200 microns (.2mm) are not so small that they will compact the bed enough to clog things up. Shimek just recommends to stay above 0.063mm (63 microns) in order to avoid that problem.

I'll send you a PM; looking forward to this!

EDIT/ADD: I just read through the thread again more closely, and realized that the material you have is all <200microns, but there's no bottom limit. I guess that means there is material smaller than 63 microns. I'll go read some more of Shimek's stuff and see what comes up.

EDIT #2: Well, after reading Dr. Shimek's article on DSBs on his website, it seems that the optimal average sand particle size is 0.125mm (125 microns), composed of particles between 50 microns and 200 microns.

You, sir, are sitting upon a gold mine of DSB material! I'd like to get my hands on enough to fill a 40breeder with 8" of sand. Anyone have an idea how to calculate the weight of that quantity?

Also, are these particles "oolitic"? Are they oval-shaped? (forgive me for not knowing whether oolitic is the material or the shape)

WestMariculture
04/06/2013, 11:46 PM
50lbs is will fill a large flat rate box, which is 5.5x12x12. A 40G breeder, at 8" depth, will take 6 large flat rate boxes.

The particles are oolitic, which means egg-shaped.

dkeller_nc
04/07/2013, 04:55 AM
I've looked into pelletizing the aragonite and I haven't found a solution. If anyone has any ideas, please let me know.

I'm not sure that this is a solution to your issue, particularly if you can actively sell the stuff to gardeners. I bet you can - aragonite would make an excellent soil acidity neutralizer without the danger of burning plants by adding too much lime.

But, if you want to pelletize the stuff to sell as calcium reactor fuel, simply add some slaked lime and water. The calcium oxide (the slaked lime) should bond the particles to each other sufficiently to create a moderately hard chunk that can then be broken into suitably-sized pieces.

Aquatron
04/07/2013, 06:04 AM
300lbs for around 100.00 shipped could you please post a pic or two of the material:)

GrimReefer555
04/07/2013, 12:05 PM
300lbs for around 100.00 shipped could you please post a pic or two of the material:)

Looks like we got your DSB sales off the ground! I take commission via PayPal! Lol

moatdaddy
04/07/2013, 02:00 PM
He is 100% on about free, that is my exact costs for shipping those boxes.

WestMariculture
04/07/2013, 02:27 PM
Unless the fines are rinsed from the material, a DSB is going to be a problem. According the Dr. Shimek, the proper size is 65-125 microns. The material I have contains a fair amount of silt less than 65 microns. This will lead to packing of the sand and no water/oxygen infiltration. In other words, anoxic conditions. Here's some photos:

http://i1067.photobucket.com/albums/u432/WestMariculture/Caribbean%20Aragonite%20Live%20SAnd/IMG_20130407_154105.jpg

http://i1067.photobucket.com/albums/u432/WestMariculture/Caribbean%20Aragonite%20Live%20SAnd/IMG_20130407_154053.jpg

To properly use the sand, you would need to get a 65 micron screen and screen out the finer particles. This isn't a simple job with a lot of material. If you also wanted to exactly target the high end of 125 microns, you would then again need to screen for that.

I currently have 10' washer/grader that screens particles less than 200 microns, as well as particles over 6.25mm. It would be possible to add additional screens to get the 65-125 micron grade, but would take a bit to put it together. Considering the low volume of material available, it may not be worth the extra effort on my part. This 1-2 tons of material has been removed from 15-18 tons of raw sand. So, the volume of this material is not significant in comparison.

rlpardue
04/12/2013, 10:00 AM
Hi, I received the box yesterday. It's a shame about it containing some particles that are finer than 65 microns. I guess the DSB "gold mine" isn't possible unless/until you get enough of the material to make processing it in a batch worthwhile.

I'd still like to pursue the RDSB idea, mostly because I have little downside at this point. Since it will be remote (not in DT), I can simply remove it if it shows signs of going anoxic. I'll try seeding it with truly "live" sand from Tampa Bay Saltwater, Indo Pacific Sea Farms, and perhaps also GARF.

This size of sand is the closest I've found to Dr. Shimek's optimal size. Mr. West, are you aware of any way I could screen out the uber-small stuff? If not, then I'll still go ahead with the project and just make a conscious effort to keep a number of tiny burrowing animals in the refugium.

WestMariculture
04/12/2013, 12:01 PM
The quick way would be to do some heavy rinsing in a bucket. Put some in, fill the bucket, stir it vigorously, let it settle for 30-60 seconds, then pour off the cloudy water. It certainly won't be perfect, but should help. Since larger particles settle faster, the light particles (smaller size) will not have settled yet...at least that's the general idea. Imperfect, but relatively quick.

A better, more time consuming, method would be to get a 65 micron sieve and screen the material. If you purchase a rotifer sieve, it should be the perfect size. I believe someone on ebay has 6" sieves. Place a cup or two of the material in the sieve, dip it in water, and move it up/down in the top 2-3" of water. The material will bounce around and the smaller particles fall through. With 40-50lbs of material, you'll be there a while. ;-)

I have a rotating screen trommel that I used to use for washing sand. The screen is 200 micron, but I could put a 65 micron screen in it. It's a $100 project and about 6 hours of time. Might be worth considering. I just don't know if there's enough interest in remote deep sand bed aggregate to warrant the time and money. Even after rinsing, I believe the material will be too fine for a display tank. So, it will be just for RDSBs. Perhaps I should put up a poll on the forums to see if there's interest.

Overgrown
04/12/2013, 12:30 PM
Westmariculture:I have somewhat of background in ceramics. Just FYI, you could most likely easily sell to a ceramics wholesaler instead of giving it away free. Particles such as this are commonly used in clay grog. Tile dust, brick dust etc are other common grog components. If nothing else its worth looking into

WestMariculture
04/12/2013, 12:37 PM
Excellent option! I'll certainly look into that. Thanks!

rlpardue
05/01/2013, 02:55 PM
After some correspondence w/ Dr Shimek, it seems this stuff is perfect for DSB material. Just thought that might be interesting for anybody curious about DSB setup.

One problem I've run into (as I mentioned in posts above) is finding small enough particle sizes to use. I just plumbed my 45g refugium the other day and asked West for some more of their free material. I'll post a thread on my experiment in Advanced Topics or something once I get it going.

WestMariculture
05/02/2013, 08:38 AM
Thanks for the feedback and contacting Shimek. Great to see this stuff being used!

robertjk7005
08/20/2013, 12:51 PM
just thought i would come back and let you know i purchased the large flat rate box from you back in April and just got around to using it. I just put it in a 20 gallon long tank hooked up to 5 others with a central sump for all (freshwater tanks). i have very low flow going through the tank. what i plan on using the tank for is breeding shrimp! i figure this would be the only thing i could put in that tank since fish would stir up the sand and make everything cloudy. will also try some rooted plants and see how they do in it. i highly doubt that the shrimp will move enough water to stir it up. when i get some shrimp in there i will let you know how it works out. Thanks again for sending me the sand!

rlpardue
08/21/2013, 08:57 AM
I set my RDSB up a couple of months ago with this sand. Liking it a lot so far. It's a pretty ugly refugium (algae, pods, various invertebrates), but man does the DSB look healthy!

rlpardue
08/11/2015, 07:40 PM
Time for an update. Last month, I had to remove the refugium with the awesome DSB, in order to do some under-tank rearrangements.

The DSB worked VERY, VERY well. The sand was fine, and was thoroughly worm-holed after a couple of months. Microfauna production was excellent; mysids and pods were everywhere in that fuge. There was even some sort of pelagic (free-swimming) pod that flitted everywhere, like a swarm of flies. Eventually I put an Anampses Twistii (Twist's tamarin wrasse) in there, and she loved the fine sandbed too. After 6 months, she was rolly-polly and eating well, and I eventually sold her.

I can highly recommend this sand. Dr. Ronald S****k (I'm not sure if I can refer to him on RC) enthusiastically endorsed the product. After a year and a half, there was no evidence of any dead-zones or sulfur release from the DSB. My connected 150g DT may or may not have benefited from the DSB (it's tough to say why something succeeded), but the corals are growing rapidly and I've been able to keep an unusually high number of delicate fishes happy, includng a 3-year-old Hawaiian cleaner wrasse, 2 yellow-stripe clingfish, a copperband, a pair of blue-stripe pipefish, 4 dispar anthias, and lots of nano-gobies. I think having a productive refugium was helpful, but again it is tough to assign blame or credit to a single factor. Having swarms of pelagic copepods getting continually flushed into the system surely didn't hurt.

Thanks West! I just installed a 40-breeder in place of the old refugium, and I hope to fill it with the same sand when I get some time.