View Full Version : Is it 2 late to change substrate??
treedog5
03/26/2013, 07:40 AM
I started my new tank with just regular dry reef sand from the pet store, and my tank is at the end of it's cycle. Is it to late to remove the sand and go with some live Aragonite sand? I don't want to have to repeat this cycle over again because i'm ready to start adding fish. I want to switch because when i went to do a 10% water change, i kept vacuuming up all the sand from the tank when i only wanted to remove the waste from my CUC. I'm thinking the aragonite won't come up as easily as the sand. So can this be done with out having to repeat a cycle??
spieszak
03/26/2013, 07:42 AM
you results may vary as far as whether you would cycle again if you just vacummed it out and readded. but... try kinking your siphon hose, or using airline tubing to siphon your sand...
nynick
03/26/2013, 08:21 AM
"Regular dry reef sand" would probably be aragonite. New sand tend to have a lot of very small particles in it. Are you sure that this is not what you are vacuming up?
Pretty much any sand will let go of it's finer particles when vacuming but the finer the sand the more will get out. Smaller detrius also looks a lot like sand. Unless you are removing a significant portion of it I would just let it be.
On a related note, if you get poop that remains on your sand for a long time you might not have enough flow.
rogermccray
03/26/2013, 08:28 AM
You can remove the sand without causing a cycle, I recommend doing it in stages, remove half the sand at one time then let it rest. This will give time for any beneficial organisms to go from your current sand to your new sand. Then after a month or so go ahead and remove the rest.
Now, I wouldn't do it just to get the "live sand" from the store. There is no real benefit to that sand, it's just expensive so the stores want to sell it. I imagine the sand was live when they bagged it but now it has shipped and sat in a store in an enclosed bag for who knows how long. I can't imagine there is anything live left. If you want some argonite get some from dead argonite sand and it will soon become live. Or if you want to seed it and get some diversity in it check out ipsf.com they have some good packs for seeding sand.
coralsnaked
03/26/2013, 08:32 AM
Live sand added to tank will have lots of dead material in it and will cause a new tank to recycle.
88rxna
03/26/2013, 08:37 AM
the vaccum i have has a valve on it i adjust for that reason...
KafudaFish
03/26/2013, 08:38 AM
What is the point?
Your "dry" sand will become live soon enough and if you are meaning live sand as in a bag vs. in a holding tank at a lfs etc., that is just a waste of money.
Also you can remove crushed coral-sized particles if you hold the hose there long enough so if you are trying to clean the sand, change your technique such as using your fingers in the sand to suspend the detritus and allowing the hose to suck that up.
You will collect some sand regardless of how careful you are and some simply replace that sand will new dry sand as needed.
rogermccray
03/26/2013, 08:39 AM
Live sand added to tank will have lots of dead material in it and will cause a new tank to recycle.
That's true, I didn't even think of that, I would say you are better off just getting dead argonite sand and rinsing it well if you want a new substrate.
leveldrummer
03/26/2013, 08:40 AM
give it time, your sand will get heavy as it gets coated in a bio film, then it wont pull up as easily when you vacuum, also take care not to plunge the vacuum end into the sand, just let it barely float above the top to gather the waste that you can see.
also, many people dont vacuum their sand at all, get more powerheads to the flow high enough that waste doesnt collect on the sand.
rogermccray
03/26/2013, 08:43 AM
give it time, your sand will get heavy as it gets coated in a bio film, then it wont pull up as easily when you vacuum, also take care not to plunge the vacuum end into the sand, just let it barely float above the top to gather the waste that you can see.
also, many people dont vacuum their sand at all, get more powerheads to the flow high enough that waste doesnt collect on the sand.
Or get a diamond goby :) your sand won't collect waste then :)
treedog5
03/26/2013, 08:44 AM
Yeah, the sand is very fine. Like the kind you see in playgrounds, but i got it from petsmart and it said reef sand. I like the way it looks, but i think it will be a problem when i do water changes. With just my CUC i see poo all around the tank and it looks bad, but when i go to syphon it up more sand than poo comes up.
rogermccray
03/26/2013, 08:54 AM
super fine is pretty tricky to find the right flow to keep the waste elevated and not move the sand. If you are looking for argonite then grab a few bags of this
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=3578+9805+7326&pcatid=7326
Just make sure you rinse it well before you put it in, I rinsed mine in a five gallon bucket in my bath tub (you can also use your hose but it's still not quite warm enough for me to be doing that in the Massachusetts)
thegrun
03/26/2013, 08:59 AM
That's true, I didn't even think of that, I would say you are better off just getting dead argonite sand and rinsing it well if you want a new substrate.
Yes! You risk (if not guarantee) a new cycle if you used "live" sand which is going to have enough dead organics in it to start a new cycle. If you want to change out your sand use washed dry sand.
nynick
03/26/2013, 09:01 AM
So you got the sugar fine sand then...Oolite...or something. +1 on getting rid of it, it sucks! Look for the special grade reef sand, uniform grain size, small enough to look like sand and be good with sand sifters etc, big enough to stay put.
Also, there are no extra organics in "live sand" any more. It is just regular dead sand with a cup of water and a spray of dormant bacteria. Either way you want to rinse the sh.. out of anything you add if you do not want to make a mess. THere will probably be some dried up organics in any type you buy along with dust.
treedog5
03/26/2013, 10:23 AM
would it be a problem if i just bought some reef grade sand and put it on top of the sand already in the tank??
thegrun
03/26/2013, 10:28 AM
No, that will be fine. Don't add more than 1/2" at a time, waiting a week between additions.
nynick
03/26/2013, 10:47 AM
Depends on how much you have in there already. If you have enough to create a deep sand bed when adding another layer you are into a whole different area of ups and downs.
Sugar fine sand has it's advantages, many critters like it for example but it does make sand storms. You can limit the sand storms by covering it but I doubt you can eliminate them completely. I hate sand storms btw but if you don't mind so much.......
Reeferz412
03/26/2013, 11:43 AM
I had sugar grain sand from petco for almost 2 years in my 20 and then i put it in my 46. You think I would learn my lesson lol. long story short, 3 weeks ago I took out ll of rock work except a cave for the fish to hide in, and put the rocks and corals in a rubbermaid with a heater and powerhead. Ordered special grade aragonite from Dr. F&S and changed the sandbed. I can now point my powerheads at the sand full blast with no problems. Do it now and never run into flow issues and sandstorms.
treedog5
03/26/2013, 09:17 PM
I had sugar grain sand from petco for almost 2 years in my 20 and then i put it in my 46. You think I would learn my lesson lol. long story short, 3 weeks ago I took out ll of rock work except a cave for the fish to hide in, and put the rocks and corals in a rubbermaid with a heater and powerhead. Ordered special grade aragonite from Dr. F&S and changed the sandbed. I can now point my powerheads at the sand full blast with no problems. Do it now and never run into flow issues and sandstorms.
I think your right, i should go ahead and make the switch. this sand keeps moving around because my powerheads flow is pushing all the sand to the front of the tank.
worm5406
03/27/2013, 01:34 PM
I do not understand this....
If you look at this video:
Start at 2:30 and WATCH the sand when no one is in front of it.
<iframe width="1280" height="720" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/RKEXIk8p1RA" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
You will see the dunes get created and move all the time.
Then looking at this:
<iframe width="1280" height="720" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/NEHkf-FsEpk" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
You will see the same tank and bed. Calm cool and collected.
I have seen some of the hermits have to dig in the sand to get a footing just to move during the cycle of the MP40's when in reef crest mode and it ramps up to 80-100.
Every few days I will set it to 100% by hand and just let it go to check the flow and any dead spots (dry flake food works real good for this) and there is no blowing around.
Here is a snap of the three types I have in it though.
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-BOAL0sdgpnU/URG5ndWHaVI/AAAAAAAA8TM/MFEgstR1Ysw/s800/20130205_210109.jpg
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-CjXNORMh8tw/URG5syoqhRI/AAAAAAAA8TU/oFChYwwEk48/s800/20130205_210201.jpg
nynick
03/27/2013, 01:49 PM
I don't understand what it is that you do not understand. :)
Is that your tank? Are you saying you have sugar fine sand and do not have a problem with it? If so I would love to know how...I love the look but the one time I used it it just kept covering everything in sand dust.
worm5406
03/27/2013, 02:32 PM
I dont understand the problems with the different sizes of substrate.
Do not get me wrong I have experienced it too.
This is what I did (both bad and good)
120:
Put origional substrate in and put rocks on top.
Had fine particles all over it for months.
Constantly blew off the rock during cycle.
Would go in and move sand around to get rid of drifts/dunes. (even as the tank was cycled and was active)
180:
Placed rock and then put in sand.
Started flow during cycle with a 900gph pump set on angle to just move the water around.
Moved some of the orig sand dunes to level out sand. (That is why in my last pic you can see some substrate lines)
DID not touch sand after it all settled out.
Added oolite, orig substrate, fiji pink. At different times.
I do not have any thing that will move the sand. I have snails, brittle starfish. but no gobies or anythnig that will move the sand around from one palce to another.
I have even had an anemone and it's host clown move sand to attach to the bottom of the glass. So YEAH there is a large divit around one anemone, from the clown moving sand.
I am not saying my tank is perfect or there is some magnet under neath it. I just lket it find it's own place and it has stayed there.
The flow is currently produced by two mp40's that ramp up to 80% at different times during the day. I set it to ON which is 100% non fluxuating at least once a week for up to 30 minutes.
The heads are about 6" from the surface and are pointed AT each other with only a 2" latteral difference. This give a bounce off effect that creates eddy's in current not only on the surface but is seen through out the tank. I have them on both sync and anti-sync patterns. They run an hour pattern then switch.
nynick
03/27/2013, 02:52 PM
Interesting, since I love the look. All I had was dunes, craters and sand storms but I do admittedly tend to go a little nuts on the circulation. :) Not that much off from yours though.
worm5406
03/27/2013, 09:05 PM
If you look at the FTS video you can see a wave in the sand. It goes from left high to center low then back high and a start of a low before the glass. That is natural, by it's choice.
Reeferz412
03/28/2013, 08:31 AM
That is not fine sugar sand. It looks like aragonite, maybe something smaller but still heavier than sugar grain sand.
treedog5
03/28/2013, 10:12 AM
yeah that looks like aragonite to me also. The sand i have is the fine type of sand, which is why i'm considering replacing it. I just don't want to repeat my cycle over again.
nynick
03/28/2013, 10:14 AM
Aragonite is just the material, It comes in many different sizes.
treedog5
03/29/2013, 09:49 AM
Just thought I would add a couple pics to show what I'm talking about..
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/03/29/e8y2abup.jpg
Sent from my Galaxy S 3...
worm5406
03/29/2013, 09:58 AM
WOW that looks more like glass beads instead...
Can you get a closer picture?
nynick
03/29/2013, 10:06 AM
That is very fine and you seem to have a lot of it. I am sure that it will become more settled as bacteria grows in and the finest of the fine particles are removed. I doubt that it will ever become very stable though but my experience with sugar fine was short lived. Putting another layer on top of it might create a deep sand bed which is another topic all together.
If it was my tank I would simply bite the bullet now, get it out and replace it with 1-2 inches of a coarser sand. It doesn't have to be much coarser as you can see in Worms pics. The look is very similar if you like it. Some people swear by sugar fine, some by bare bottom and some people by coral rubble. They all have their benefits and problems but sugar fine seems to have more problems than any of the others. From sand storms to solidifying.
nynick
03/29/2013, 10:08 AM
...and yes, it does look very glass like. Is that sugar fine aragonite? It looks like quarts or something.
treedog5
03/29/2013, 10:20 AM
Ok, so i know someone who is breaking down an established tank and want's to sell the sand that is in it. if i replace the sand in my tank with that established sand will i have to repeat my cycle?? I'm ****ed now, i thought the sand was going to be Ok and i'm ready to add some fish into my tank..
nynick
03/29/2013, 10:38 AM
Established sand will start a new cycle if you add it. Clean dead sand will not. You need something to release nutrients to start a new cycle at this point.
Reeferz412
04/01/2013, 01:34 PM
Established sand = live things which translates to some things will die off and decompose and break down into the cycle. So you will have some sort of cycle if you change to that sand.
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