uny2bld
03/26/2013, 09:31 PM
I figured instead of mucking up someone elses thread, i would post in my own since this might not be in the interest of the original author (regarding this thread http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2277140 )
Ok, you guys gave me a challenge and I like that. Searching for this article is no small feat. I can’t remember the author (I can’t even remember if it was online or in a book, at a conference/seminar, etc.) I did a general search but there is a ton of discussion on this and most is repeated and unhelpful material so I tried to take a different route. I tried to find out what type of plastic they were made of but that is also nearly impossible. No MSDS is provided and they don’t even list the plastic type on any of the major websites so I emailed Grainger, LOWES, Home Depot, Total Plastics and Sabic (the manufacturer that is used by Grainger and others) Let’s see who emails me back first ;)
While I’m waiting for emails, I’ll try doing the research myself…
I think I have found not only the answer to the eggcrate question but the answer to the brute debate and the PVC debate…
Inconsistent materials are used in each manufacturer’s product.
To do a genuine Empirical study, you need a constant. What I have found is that there is no constant in terms of this product. Based just off of retail knowledge, I know that each retailer has the potential to purchase the same product from several different distributers each of who may have a slightly different product. The country of origin is also not consistent and each country has different standards. Most of the eggcrate I found was manufactured in China and they do not have nearly the same regulations as the US. Grainger lists their eggcrate as made in the USA but has a disclaimer that says “Country of Origin is subject to change” http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/Light-Panel-4VZJ1
The little info I found on what materials this is made of tells me that even though all eggcrate seems to look the same, it is not. Each company manufactures this with different materials. Some companies just list “plastic”. I just got an email from eplastics and they said theirs is made of styrene. Originally, when I said that eggcrate can leach toxins, I was mainly referring to the phosphate issue. What I found is even more. Styrene is classified as a hazardous material. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Styrene If anyone wants me to forward them the email confirmation I got from eplastics, let me know. I just found on Grainger’s website that their eggcrate is also made of styrene (found under the “Tech Specs” panel) http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/Light-Panel-4VZJ1
Plastic breakdown:
Keep in mind that we can see certain plastics break down over time. Think of your bulkheads for example –ever see one that was cracked and brittle? I found an article from the EPA listing plastic types: http://www.epa.gov/osw/conserve/materials/plastics.htm I also found this site which lists some safe and non-safe plastics: http://healthychild.org/easy-steps/know-your-plastics/ From the article: Polystyrene is listed as a #6 plastic and can leach styrene “Found in rigid plastics such as opaque plastic spoons and forks, and in Styrofoam, such as those found in coffee cups and meat trays. These plastics can leach styrene, a known neurotoxin with other negative health effects. AVOID #6.” Other examples: #1 and #7 plastics, are known to leach toxic substances. Because the materials this product is made of is inconsistent between different manufacturers, we cannot be certain it is made of “reef-safe” plastic materials and the likelihood of exposure to toxins from plastics is increased because of this.
Toxicity:
From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plastic Recycled “Thermoplastics can be remelted and reused, and thermoset plastics can be ground up and used as filler, although the purity of the material tends to degrade with each reuse cycle” Further, these thermoset plastics have the capability to leach toxins (see here: http://www.ehow.com/about_5673219_dangers-melamine-dinnerware_.html ) “Several toxic chemicals are used in the production of melamine resin, namely formaldehyde and urea. Under the pressure used to create the resin, melamine releases water which must be completely removed. If it is not, it makes the thermoset plastic unstable. This instability can cause the melamine resin to decompose back into its original elements, some of which are toxic.
What Breaks Down Melamine Resin (Relative to reefer applications)? Answer: Improper manufacturing process. Since we know that the end product can be produced in other countries – or even our own, there will be cases of improper manufacturing (and I have a feeling it is more common in those countries that have less regulated practices) “The thermoset plastic in melamine resin, while normally stable, can be at risk of breaking down into its toxic elements (including formaldehyde and urea)”
I have personal experience with improper manufacturing. My cousin used to work at a plastic recycling plant here in upstate NY and I would spend a lot of time there helping out. I personally witnessed contamination many times. A certain amount of “contamination” was a known factor when some plastics got mixed in with others that they weren’t supposed to be mixed with. To make matters worse, when the boss wasn’t looking, I remember several employees taking short cuts and mixing in products that shouldn’t be mixed just because they didn’t want to put them back where they were supposed to be. That plant burnt down several years ago… If this can happen here in the US, I can only imagine what can happen in other countries…
If manufactured properly, “pure plastics generally have low toxicity” (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plastic) However, there is still a known capability to leach toxins: “Some plastic products contain a variety of additives, some of which can be toxic. For example, plasticizers like adipates and phthalates are often added to brittle plastics like polyvinyl chloride to make them pliable enough for use in food packaging, toys, and many other items. Traces of these compounds can leach out of the product.”
Also consider the history of the product you purchased:
Unless you yourself have manufactured the product you have purchased, you do not know the history of what it has been exposed to before you made the purchase. Therefore, anything is possible and it may have (for instance) been sitting in a window being exposed to UV radiation for months or stuck in a smoldering trailer on its way to a retailer during hot summer months where the inside of trailers is a lot hotter than the outside temp. These things can break down plastics.
Hormone interference with plastics:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plastic “In 2011, it was reported that "almost all plastic products" sampled released chemicals with estrogenic activity, although the researchers identified plastics which did not leach chemicals with estrogenic activity.” This may also explain why some reefers suspect having issues with leaching We know that many animals in our tanks secrete hormones into the water column (such as corals) therefore, I suspect that frag tanks are especially at risk for leaching.
Bottom Line: Why do some people have issues with certain plastics and others do not?
Different manufacturers produce this product with different materials and therefore, the consumer does not know exactly what they are getting. Since this product is intended for hardware use and away from water, etc., manufacturers are not required to provide info regarding these conditions. This means that the end product that the consumer purchases can be made of any type of plastic and we know that some of these plastics are toxic - or have the capability to leach toxins. So, some reefers may have purchased a product that is in fact safe while others purchase a product with a known toxicity. This explains the unreliable results reefers experience with these issues. Further variables include the age of the product (since all plastics breakdown) and the history of what the product has been exposed to as well as unknown manufacturing processes and hormone interference from corals in our tanks. I think that most of us are safe as long as we treat our plastic products with inert treatments such as Krylon Fusion spray paint and do not allow these plastics to be exposed to those environmental conditions which are known to break down plastics.
Hope this helps!
Ok, you guys gave me a challenge and I like that. Searching for this article is no small feat. I can’t remember the author (I can’t even remember if it was online or in a book, at a conference/seminar, etc.) I did a general search but there is a ton of discussion on this and most is repeated and unhelpful material so I tried to take a different route. I tried to find out what type of plastic they were made of but that is also nearly impossible. No MSDS is provided and they don’t even list the plastic type on any of the major websites so I emailed Grainger, LOWES, Home Depot, Total Plastics and Sabic (the manufacturer that is used by Grainger and others) Let’s see who emails me back first ;)
While I’m waiting for emails, I’ll try doing the research myself…
I think I have found not only the answer to the eggcrate question but the answer to the brute debate and the PVC debate…
Inconsistent materials are used in each manufacturer’s product.
To do a genuine Empirical study, you need a constant. What I have found is that there is no constant in terms of this product. Based just off of retail knowledge, I know that each retailer has the potential to purchase the same product from several different distributers each of who may have a slightly different product. The country of origin is also not consistent and each country has different standards. Most of the eggcrate I found was manufactured in China and they do not have nearly the same regulations as the US. Grainger lists their eggcrate as made in the USA but has a disclaimer that says “Country of Origin is subject to change” http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/Light-Panel-4VZJ1
The little info I found on what materials this is made of tells me that even though all eggcrate seems to look the same, it is not. Each company manufactures this with different materials. Some companies just list “plastic”. I just got an email from eplastics and they said theirs is made of styrene. Originally, when I said that eggcrate can leach toxins, I was mainly referring to the phosphate issue. What I found is even more. Styrene is classified as a hazardous material. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Styrene If anyone wants me to forward them the email confirmation I got from eplastics, let me know. I just found on Grainger’s website that their eggcrate is also made of styrene (found under the “Tech Specs” panel) http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/Light-Panel-4VZJ1
Plastic breakdown:
Keep in mind that we can see certain plastics break down over time. Think of your bulkheads for example –ever see one that was cracked and brittle? I found an article from the EPA listing plastic types: http://www.epa.gov/osw/conserve/materials/plastics.htm I also found this site which lists some safe and non-safe plastics: http://healthychild.org/easy-steps/know-your-plastics/ From the article: Polystyrene is listed as a #6 plastic and can leach styrene “Found in rigid plastics such as opaque plastic spoons and forks, and in Styrofoam, such as those found in coffee cups and meat trays. These plastics can leach styrene, a known neurotoxin with other negative health effects. AVOID #6.” Other examples: #1 and #7 plastics, are known to leach toxic substances. Because the materials this product is made of is inconsistent between different manufacturers, we cannot be certain it is made of “reef-safe” plastic materials and the likelihood of exposure to toxins from plastics is increased because of this.
Toxicity:
From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plastic Recycled “Thermoplastics can be remelted and reused, and thermoset plastics can be ground up and used as filler, although the purity of the material tends to degrade with each reuse cycle” Further, these thermoset plastics have the capability to leach toxins (see here: http://www.ehow.com/about_5673219_dangers-melamine-dinnerware_.html ) “Several toxic chemicals are used in the production of melamine resin, namely formaldehyde and urea. Under the pressure used to create the resin, melamine releases water which must be completely removed. If it is not, it makes the thermoset plastic unstable. This instability can cause the melamine resin to decompose back into its original elements, some of which are toxic.
What Breaks Down Melamine Resin (Relative to reefer applications)? Answer: Improper manufacturing process. Since we know that the end product can be produced in other countries – or even our own, there will be cases of improper manufacturing (and I have a feeling it is more common in those countries that have less regulated practices) “The thermoset plastic in melamine resin, while normally stable, can be at risk of breaking down into its toxic elements (including formaldehyde and urea)”
I have personal experience with improper manufacturing. My cousin used to work at a plastic recycling plant here in upstate NY and I would spend a lot of time there helping out. I personally witnessed contamination many times. A certain amount of “contamination” was a known factor when some plastics got mixed in with others that they weren’t supposed to be mixed with. To make matters worse, when the boss wasn’t looking, I remember several employees taking short cuts and mixing in products that shouldn’t be mixed just because they didn’t want to put them back where they were supposed to be. That plant burnt down several years ago… If this can happen here in the US, I can only imagine what can happen in other countries…
If manufactured properly, “pure plastics generally have low toxicity” (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plastic) However, there is still a known capability to leach toxins: “Some plastic products contain a variety of additives, some of which can be toxic. For example, plasticizers like adipates and phthalates are often added to brittle plastics like polyvinyl chloride to make them pliable enough for use in food packaging, toys, and many other items. Traces of these compounds can leach out of the product.”
Also consider the history of the product you purchased:
Unless you yourself have manufactured the product you have purchased, you do not know the history of what it has been exposed to before you made the purchase. Therefore, anything is possible and it may have (for instance) been sitting in a window being exposed to UV radiation for months or stuck in a smoldering trailer on its way to a retailer during hot summer months where the inside of trailers is a lot hotter than the outside temp. These things can break down plastics.
Hormone interference with plastics:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plastic “In 2011, it was reported that "almost all plastic products" sampled released chemicals with estrogenic activity, although the researchers identified plastics which did not leach chemicals with estrogenic activity.” This may also explain why some reefers suspect having issues with leaching We know that many animals in our tanks secrete hormones into the water column (such as corals) therefore, I suspect that frag tanks are especially at risk for leaching.
Bottom Line: Why do some people have issues with certain plastics and others do not?
Different manufacturers produce this product with different materials and therefore, the consumer does not know exactly what they are getting. Since this product is intended for hardware use and away from water, etc., manufacturers are not required to provide info regarding these conditions. This means that the end product that the consumer purchases can be made of any type of plastic and we know that some of these plastics are toxic - or have the capability to leach toxins. So, some reefers may have purchased a product that is in fact safe while others purchase a product with a known toxicity. This explains the unreliable results reefers experience with these issues. Further variables include the age of the product (since all plastics breakdown) and the history of what the product has been exposed to as well as unknown manufacturing processes and hormone interference from corals in our tanks. I think that most of us are safe as long as we treat our plastic products with inert treatments such as Krylon Fusion spray paint and do not allow these plastics to be exposed to those environmental conditions which are known to break down plastics.
Hope this helps!