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uny2bld
03/26/2013, 09:31 PM
I figured instead of mucking up someone elses thread, i would post in my own since this might not be in the interest of the original author (regarding this thread http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2277140 )

Ok, you guys gave me a challenge and I like that. Searching for this article is no small feat. I can’t remember the author (I can’t even remember if it was online or in a book, at a conference/seminar, etc.) I did a general search but there is a ton of discussion on this and most is repeated and unhelpful material so I tried to take a different route. I tried to find out what type of plastic they were made of but that is also nearly impossible. No MSDS is provided and they don’t even list the plastic type on any of the major websites so I emailed Grainger, LOWES, Home Depot, Total Plastics and Sabic (the manufacturer that is used by Grainger and others) Let’s see who emails me back first ;)

While I’m waiting for emails, I’ll try doing the research myself…

I think I have found not only the answer to the eggcrate question but the answer to the brute debate and the PVC debate…

Inconsistent materials are used in each manufacturer’s product.

To do a genuine Empirical study, you need a constant. What I have found is that there is no constant in terms of this product. Based just off of retail knowledge, I know that each retailer has the potential to purchase the same product from several different distributers each of who may have a slightly different product. The country of origin is also not consistent and each country has different standards. Most of the eggcrate I found was manufactured in China and they do not have nearly the same regulations as the US. Grainger lists their eggcrate as made in the USA but has a disclaimer that says “Country of Origin is subject to change” http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/Light-Panel-4VZJ1

The little info I found on what materials this is made of tells me that even though all eggcrate seems to look the same, it is not. Each company manufactures this with different materials. Some companies just list “plastic”. I just got an email from eplastics and they said theirs is made of styrene. Originally, when I said that eggcrate can leach toxins, I was mainly referring to the phosphate issue. What I found is even more. Styrene is classified as a hazardous material. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Styrene If anyone wants me to forward them the email confirmation I got from eplastics, let me know. I just found on Grainger’s website that their eggcrate is also made of styrene (found under the “Tech Specs” panel) http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/Light-Panel-4VZJ1

Plastic breakdown:

Keep in mind that we can see certain plastics break down over time. Think of your bulkheads for example –ever see one that was cracked and brittle? I found an article from the EPA listing plastic types: http://www.epa.gov/osw/conserve/materials/plastics.htm I also found this site which lists some safe and non-safe plastics: http://healthychild.org/easy-steps/know-your-plastics/ From the article: Polystyrene is listed as a #6 plastic and can leach styrene “Found in rigid plastics such as opaque plastic spoons and forks, and in Styrofoam, such as those found in coffee cups and meat trays. These plastics can leach styrene, a known neurotoxin with other negative health effects. AVOID #6.” Other examples: #1 and #7 plastics, are known to leach toxic substances. Because the materials this product is made of is inconsistent between different manufacturers, we cannot be certain it is made of “reef-safe” plastic materials and the likelihood of exposure to toxins from plastics is increased because of this.

Toxicity:

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plastic Recycled “Thermoplastics can be remelted and reused, and thermoset plastics can be ground up and used as filler, although the purity of the material tends to degrade with each reuse cycle” Further, these thermoset plastics have the capability to leach toxins (see here: http://www.ehow.com/about_5673219_dangers-melamine-dinnerware_.html ) “Several toxic chemicals are used in the production of melamine resin, namely formaldehyde and urea. Under the pressure used to create the resin, melamine releases water which must be completely removed. If it is not, it makes the thermoset plastic unstable. This instability can cause the melamine resin to decompose back into its original elements, some of which are toxic.

What Breaks Down Melamine Resin (Relative to reefer applications)? Answer: Improper manufacturing process. Since we know that the end product can be produced in other countries – or even our own, there will be cases of improper manufacturing (and I have a feeling it is more common in those countries that have less regulated practices) “The thermoset plastic in melamine resin, while normally stable, can be at risk of breaking down into its toxic elements (including formaldehyde and urea)”

I have personal experience with improper manufacturing. My cousin used to work at a plastic recycling plant here in upstate NY and I would spend a lot of time there helping out. I personally witnessed contamination many times. A certain amount of “contamination” was a known factor when some plastics got mixed in with others that they weren’t supposed to be mixed with. To make matters worse, when the boss wasn’t looking, I remember several employees taking short cuts and mixing in products that shouldn’t be mixed just because they didn’t want to put them back where they were supposed to be. That plant burnt down several years ago… If this can happen here in the US, I can only imagine what can happen in other countries…

If manufactured properly, “pure plastics generally have low toxicity” (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plastic) However, there is still a known capability to leach toxins: “Some plastic products contain a variety of additives, some of which can be toxic. For example, plasticizers like adipates and phthalates are often added to brittle plastics like polyvinyl chloride to make them pliable enough for use in food packaging, toys, and many other items. Traces of these compounds can leach out of the product.”

Also consider the history of the product you purchased:

Unless you yourself have manufactured the product you have purchased, you do not know the history of what it has been exposed to before you made the purchase. Therefore, anything is possible and it may have (for instance) been sitting in a window being exposed to UV radiation for months or stuck in a smoldering trailer on its way to a retailer during hot summer months where the inside of trailers is a lot hotter than the outside temp. These things can break down plastics.

Hormone interference with plastics:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plastic “In 2011, it was reported that "almost all plastic products" sampled released chemicals with estrogenic activity, although the researchers identified plastics which did not leach chemicals with estrogenic activity.” This may also explain why some reefers suspect having issues with leaching We know that many animals in our tanks secrete hormones into the water column (such as corals) therefore, I suspect that frag tanks are especially at risk for leaching.

Bottom Line: Why do some people have issues with certain plastics and others do not?

Different manufacturers produce this product with different materials and therefore, the consumer does not know exactly what they are getting. Since this product is intended for hardware use and away from water, etc., manufacturers are not required to provide info regarding these conditions. This means that the end product that the consumer purchases can be made of any type of plastic and we know that some of these plastics are toxic - or have the capability to leach toxins. So, some reefers may have purchased a product that is in fact safe while others purchase a product with a known toxicity. This explains the unreliable results reefers experience with these issues. Further variables include the age of the product (since all plastics breakdown) and the history of what the product has been exposed to as well as unknown manufacturing processes and hormone interference from corals in our tanks. I think that most of us are safe as long as we treat our plastic products with inert treatments such as Krylon Fusion spray paint and do not allow these plastics to be exposed to those environmental conditions which are known to break down plastics.

Hope this helps!

uny2bld
03/26/2013, 09:47 PM
Further thoughts: I do not subscribe to the anti-PVC sided debate although there seems to be some relative data (in sources above as well as one close to home for me – in a neighboring city: http://chej.org/2012/11/ny-pta-passes-resolution-to-phase-out-pvc-in-schools/ )

Judging from documentation I read, I would suggest avoiding PVC dust in my reef tank. After cutting PVC, I’d suggest washing it out to remove the dust. Ultimately, I think that as long as no unsafe environmental conditions are present, PVC is safe imo.

uny2bld
03/26/2013, 09:48 PM
Another relative article: http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=9841&page=387

tphill
03/26/2013, 10:11 PM
Wow, that's a lot of research.

uny2bld
03/26/2013, 10:16 PM
The Brute Tash Can Debate: I am one of the many people who do not have issues with Brute Trash Cans. I suspect that the few who do have issues were subject to either

#1 - allowed the trash can to be exposed to known environmental conditions which degrade plastics.

#2 - The item was exposed to said conditions before purchase

Or #3 - There was a manufacturing flaw.


IMO - Brute trash cans are safe and I suspect that if they were to go out and purchase another one at a different time and location they would not have an issue (due to the unlikelyhood that these conditions would occur twice for that individual)

uny2bld
03/26/2013, 10:22 PM
Further notes regarding the use of inert paint to treat plastics:

I used to work at a retailer dealing with paint and now I work with shipping paint daily at UPS. The regulations regarding paint are very strict and highly regulated so the product will be very consistant whereas, the plastics in question are barely regulated so I still feel that treating these plastics with Krylon Fusion spray paint (or any other inert paint) is a safe precaution.

redfishblewfish
03/26/2013, 10:40 PM
This is most interesting. The plastics themselves are safe. It’s the additional “crap” that ends up in the plastics that are a problem.

My last corporate position was with a very well know company that had a joint venture with a company in an unnamed Asian country. We made medical devices….stuff that got put into your body. This Asian company could not produce clean plastics. With three or four lots, everything was OK. But then I’d get a lot I’d have to reject because of heavy metals. They would apologize, give me a couple more “clean” lots, and then back to contaminated ones.

I don’t want to even consider what they are giving us with regular consumer plastic products. I do remember buying a drop light a couple years ago that was produced in said county, and there was a warning label on the product to wash my hands after each use, because of lead. That one went into the trash!

With this Asian country being the major supplier of the US, I scratch my head on the potential of introducing these “poisons” into our tanks.

uny2bld
03/26/2013, 10:48 PM
This is most interesting. The plastics themselves are safe. It’s the additional “crap” that ends up in the plastics that are a problem.

My last corporate position was with a very well know company that had a joint venture with a company in an unnamed Asian country. We made medical devices….stuff that got put into your body. This Asian company could not produce clean plastics. With three or four lots, everything was OK. But then I’d get a lot I’d have to reject because of heavy metals. They would apologize, give me a couple more “clean” lots, and then back to contaminated ones.

I don’t want to even consider what they are giving us with regular consumer plastic products. I do remember buying a drop light a couple years ago that was produced in said county, and there was a warning label on the product to wash my hands after each use, because of lead. That one went into the trash!

With this Asian country being the major supplier of the US, I scratch my head on the potential of introducing these “poisons” into our tanks.

I am glad that you mentioned metal contaminants bc I read somewhere that aluminum was in some eggcrate but then I lost the page so I decided not to state it in my summary.

KeithB
03/26/2013, 10:52 PM
Wow. I just purchased a brute trash can to start mixing water..

uny2bld
03/26/2013, 10:54 PM
I was thinking of eggcrate used in different applications not previously discussed such as in being used as hoods for our tanks. After thinking of that, I thought "what about LED lights with UV LEDs, or a tank close to a window"? We know that UV breaks down plastics so I would suggest even treating eggcrate used for tank hoods if you have these conditions. If you like the white color, why not just paint it white?

uny2bld
03/26/2013, 10:55 PM
Even more thoughts and findings regarding Eggcrate:

Eggcrate and other plastics may be treated with chemicals so this presents another variable entirely and may contribute to those who do have issues with eggcrate. I found a good thread regarding this and other thoughts on the subject here: http://www.njreefers.org/archive/index.php/t-58778.html?

The author seems to have good resources but his research doesn't provide more than one example and since this product is made with different materials from different manufacturers, more documentation would be needed to know the potential toxicity of all eggcrate products. The article starts off against leaching but then takes a turn...

For those of you who do not wish to treat your eggcrate with inert paint, try an acid wash with white vinegar as mentioned in the article.

uny2bld
03/26/2013, 11:00 PM
Lastly, any studies we search for are done with the intention of human consumption or influence. Our reef animals are much more sensative than us so keep that in mind. Most plastics seem safe but they can degrade under certain conditions so if you think your plastics are harming your tank, your probably right. Remove them and replace them with better made plastics and/or treat them as mentioned above.

time for me to go to bed - hope this helps some :sleep: :sleep: :sleep:

syrinx
03/26/2013, 11:02 PM
That is some impressive work! It does make sense that recycled and import stuff might be an issue for leaching. I still see no evidence though that it is more than a tank can deal with, especially if carbon is used. I will keep it in mind though when I try to figure out the next mystery tank issue I come across!

KeithB
03/26/2013, 11:03 PM
I like the encapsulation concept with the paint. I know from past experiences that he posted cure times usually don't provide complete cure. Would we have to factor in extra cure time before we introduce the encapsulated plastic ino the tank?

uny2bld
03/26/2013, 11:06 PM
That is some impressive work! It does make sense that recycled and import stuff might be an issue for leaching. I still see no evidence though that it is more than a tank can deal with, especially if carbon is used. I will keep it in mind though when I try to figure out the next mystery tank issue I come across!

Thanks - I think some people just experience a series of these unfortunate variables which makes their issue worse than others

uny2bld
03/26/2013, 11:12 PM
I like the encapsulation concept with the paint. I know from past experiences that he posted cure times usually don't provide complete cure. Would we have to factor in extra cure time before we introduce the encapsulated plastic ino the tank?

I thought I saw a complete cure time in the instructions but I could be wrong. I did allow for exta curing time though just to be safe. I think I went close to 2 full weeks...

KafudaFish
03/27/2013, 07:48 AM
Thank you good sir for taking the time to expand the discussion from the other thread. I appreciate your efforts and look forward to reading each of the links.

uny2bld
03/27/2013, 08:17 AM
Thank you good sir for taking the time to expand the discussion from the other thread. I appreciate your efforts and look forward to reading each of the links.

No prob :)

RFLKPTR
03/27/2013, 09:27 AM
Excellent thread! Thank you for taking so much time to hash this out.

uny2bld
03/28/2013, 10:33 AM
No prob RFLKPTR

I got replies from eplastics, Grainger and Sabic but LOWES and Home Depot never got back to me...

Variation in the materials gets even more unpredictable for the end-consumer.

When you go to your local hardware store you can purchase what appears to be the same exact product but in fact from one time to the next, it could be completely different (not only for the reasons stated above, but even the same manufacturer may make the same product out of different materials from one time to the next. Sabic emailed me most recently and said that their product may be made out of acrylic or styrene…

As stated above, styrene is toxic (here is a source: http://healthychild.org/easy-steps/know-your-plastics/ )

Poly styrene can leach styrene, a known neurotoxin. Well, this product isn’t even polystyrene, it’s just styrene so it’s toxic just by itself – see here:

“Code 6: PS (polystyrene). Found in rigid plastics such as opaque plastic spoons and forks, and in Styrofoam, such as those found in coffee cups and meat trays. These plastics can leach styrene, a known neurotoxin with other negative health effects. AVOID #6.”

In my opinion, if this product is not safe for us to drink a glass of water out of, how could it possibly be safe for our reef animals who are much more sensitive to toxins to live and exist in it 24/7? Add the fact that a lot of these eggcrate products are used by reefers who use them for coral fragging. This adds to the possibility of leaching toxins due to the hormone secretion of those animals.

In addition, we break or cut the product to suit our needs. The toxicity of styrene and other plastics becomes much greater when the product has been altered.

I suspect that those people who do not have issues with their eggcrate got lucky and managed to purchase an acrylic version of the product while others who are having these issues, have the styrene version…

If you really wanted eggcrate and didn’t want to paint it or treat it with an acid wash, my best advice would be to purchase it online from the manufacturer and request it in acrylic. Even then, it may contain those spray treatments mentioned before but I think this is a better option than gambling with untreated styrene or other non-regulated plastics.