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cj7jeep81
03/27/2013, 06:31 AM
In the final stages of my new build, and am having issues getting the water up to temperature. Main tank is a 125 gallon tank, with roughly 160 pounds of sand and 100 pounds of rock. I'm guessing maybe 100 gallons of actual water in the tank. Sump is a 75 gallon tank in the basement, about 35 feet away. I'm guessing the sump has about 40 gallons of water in it total. First section is the drains/skimmer, middle is return (about 10 or 12 gallons of water), third chamber is a 13 gallon refugium fed off the return pump).

For the last week (since I've had the sump online), I moved the heaters down there. One is a 250 watt ebo-jager heater, and the other is a 250 watt titanium heater (bought both used). I put them in the return section, and set both to 79 degrees. The lights come on both, to indicate they are heating, but the water is not getting above 70 degrees. Prior to moving to the sump, I had the 250 watt glass heater in my main tank, and the water was quite a bit warmer (but I didn't have a thermometer at the time).

Yesterday evening, I added a new 300 watt ebo jager heater in the basement, and unplugged the 250 watt ebo jager. This morning, the water is still 70 degrees.

I'm thinking the problem is my basement is too cold (unheated, but insulated). It's probably in the mid 50's or 60's in there. Will I have to put a heater in my main tank to keep it warm enough? Or is there anything else I can do? Also, my water feed line for the refugium exits about 2" below the surface. Since heat rises, should I lower the output to the bottom, to distribute the heat better?

cj7jeep81
03/27/2013, 06:32 AM
Also, right now I have all 3 heaters running in my return section of my sump, so I'll check tonight to see if that helps.

thegrun
03/27/2013, 06:57 AM
With your situation I would expect you to need 5-7 watts of heater per gallon, so around 850 watts. It will help to insulate the drain and return lines. I've seen several basement sumps where the aquarist wrapped their sump with Styrofoam to help insulate the water which would also be a big help. I would strongly recommend getting a controller and keep the temperature probe in your DT. Use the controller to determine when to turn on or off the heaters. Also remember that the dials on most heaters are off by as much as 5 degrees, you should always calibrate a heater with a good thermometer (I use a lab grade thermometer).

downbeach
03/27/2013, 07:02 AM
Where are your measuring your temp? What is the size of your return pump? If you have enough flow between your sump and DT, you may need larger heaters. I'd also suggest you put them on a controller, I don't trust the thermostats that are in the heater tubes.

cj7jeep81
03/27/2013, 07:09 AM
With your situation I would expect you to need 5-7 watts of heater per gallon, so around 850 watts. It will help to insulate the drain and return lines. I've seen several basement sumps where the aquarist wrapped their sump with Styrofoam to help insulate the water which would also be a big help. I would strongly recommend getting a controller and keep the temperature probe in your DT. Use the controller to determine when to turn on or off the heaters. Also remember that the dials on most heaters are off by as much as 5 degrees, you should always calibrate a heater with a good thermometer (I use a lab grade thermometer).

I should be close then, as right now I have 800 watts of heaters. Just seems like a lot though. I'll also look into insulating what I can. Right now I just have some cheap glass thermoters, but will look into better.

Where are your measuring your temp? What is the size of your return pump? If you have enough flow between your sump and DT, you may need larger heaters. I'd also suggest you put them on a controller, I don't trust the thermostats that are in the heater tubes.

I have one glass thermometer in the sump (in the return chamber), and one in my display tank. Return pump is a panworld ps150. The flow is split between the refugium and the display tank. Not getting a ton of flow out of it, but some.

What controllers would you recommend? Trying to keep costs down as much as I can, and can't swing a super expensive controller now.

username in use
03/27/2013, 07:30 AM
I would get the 1-2" dense foam insulating boards and wrap your sump with those as the first step. Then I would see if you can put a lid at least over some of the sump if not the whole thing with maybe just some holes that the skimmer comes through and the plumbing comes through. That should help reduce evaporation loss's in the basement which could be significant with the ambient as low as it is. Insulate as many of the return and drain lines as possible and then see where you are at. Running 800 watts of heaters around the clock is going to kill your electric bill, if you could cut that number at all with proper insulation then you would be doing yourself some big favors.

cj7jeep81
03/27/2013, 07:42 AM
I would get the 1-2" dense foam insulating boards and wrap your sump with those as the first step. Then I would see if you can put a lid at least over some of the sump if not the whole thing with maybe just some holes that the skimmer comes through and the plumbing comes through. That should help reduce evaporation loss's in the basement which could be significant with the ambient as low as it is. Insulate as many of the return and drain lines as possible and then see where you are at. Running 800 watts of heaters around the clock is going to kill your electric bill, if you could cut that number at all with proper insulation then you would be doing yourself some big favors.

Yeah, 800 watts is not sounding good. I'd rather put the 300w heater in the tank (in the back, behind the rocks), as I'd imagine that would help a lot. I'll see what I can do with insulation. Unfortunately, the sump is right up against a wall, and I can't move it due to plumbing. So I can't insulate the back. I'll see what I can do.

username in use
03/27/2013, 07:48 AM
Putting the heater in the tank won't make a difference over all because all the water is still running through the sump. Even insulating 3 walls of the sump will help, but if you could empty it, pull it out, insulate it and put it back that would be the best.

cj7jeep81
03/27/2013, 08:59 AM
Putting the heater in the tank won't make a difference over all because all the water is still running through the sump. Even insulating 3 walls of the sump will help, but if you could empty it, pull it out, insulate it and put it back that would be the best.

Thanks, I'll see if I can get all four sides. Just not sure I'll be able to have it 1" out from teh wall without redoing a bunch of plumbing. Might be able to.

Might also look at covering the top. I'm not too worried about lack of gas exchange, as my display tank is uncovered, and has a lot of surface agitation due to my closed loop.

Any recommendations on insulating the pipes? My drains and returns are all 1.5".

username in use
03/27/2013, 09:05 AM
http://www.buyinsulationproductstore.com/servlet/the-459/Fiberglass-Pipe-Insulation-for/Detail

there is a sizing chart on the site.

downbeach
03/27/2013, 09:06 AM
I've used this (http://www.lowes.com/pd_294098-1410-SP513XB6_0__) on copper pipe, but not sure of the OD on the PVC pipe, and how it might fit.

username in use
03/27/2013, 09:09 AM
I could be wrong, but I believe due to the different wall thickness, something that fits a copper pipe won't fit the same "size" pvc pipe. A 1 1/2" pvc pipe has an outside diameter of 1.9"

downbeach
03/27/2013, 09:13 AM
Probably have to go to 2", maybe something like this (http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/THERMACEL-Pipe-Insulation-2KUE5). Or, take a piece of the PVC pipe to HD or Lowes to see what they might have, that will fit.

RA
03/27/2013, 09:18 AM
Have you thought about putting a smaller sump right under your tank?

88rxna
03/27/2013, 09:18 AM
i found an insulation wrap at lowes. also, maybe the heater needs to be in a low flow spot? i had the same problem until i stuck my heater in my fuge area (lower flow) and now im fine.

Pittsburgh
03/27/2013, 09:31 AM
I used to run a 20gal sump in my unheated and not insulated basement. God only knows how cold it used to get there in the winter. I had two 250w heaters there and a pretty massive return pump. The distance to the DT was about 12 ft though. That, plus 500w MH lights right over the tank and I never had an issue with the temperature in the DT dropping.

I would suggest checking the actual flow rate between the sump and the DT. If there is not enough flow, your DT cools off faster than hot water being delivered to it. Increasing the flow may help solving the problem. But if you are already at the maximum flow and still can't maintain stable temperature, insulating pipes and the sump is the way to go.

thegrun
03/27/2013, 09:40 AM
If you do rework the plumbing to add insulation don't forget to insulate below the tank.

cj7jeep81
03/27/2013, 11:25 AM
I think I'll start with insulating the tank itself, and putting a cover on it. Hoping to avoid buying pipe insulation. I've got roughly 100 feet of 1.5" pipe between 2 drains and the return, so that's a couple hundred bucks right there. But, I know it will pay back eventually.

As for a sump under the tank, I could do that, but I really don't want to. Having a sump in the basement is so much easier for maintenance (got a sink right by it, plenty of room for equipment, etc). Just need to figure out how to make this work.

Also, lighting isn't on yet, but it's all LED, so I'm not expecting much heat off that.

cj7jeep81
03/27/2013, 11:27 AM
i found an insulation wrap at lowes. also, maybe the heater needs to be in a low flow spot? i had the same problem until i stuck my heater in my fuge area (lower flow) and now im fine.


I can kind of try that. The 300 watt heater is huge, and will only fit in my return. Not sure if I could fit the others in the fuge or not, as it's not that big (18"x10"x18" high, but with several inches of sand).

If you do rework the plumbing to add insulation don't forget to insulate below the tank.

will do.