ich treatment help

[petere1989]

So i just treated my tank with Ich-x. The instructions say repeat dosing every 24 hours but no longer then 8 hours. what exactly does that mean? I'm confused of when I should do the water change.

[MrTuskfish]

Ich-X is a formalin (formaldehyde) product and not a product to use on ich. It doesn't work. IMO & IME, only tank-transfer, copper, and probably Chloroquine Phosphate are effective cures for ich. Are all of your fish being treated in a QT?

[bnumair]

I agree. First qt tank. Then only 3 tried and tested methods are
1. Hypo salinity
2. Copper
3. Tank transfer

[jamesbaur13]

The other option is to "ride it out".

All effective treatments require you to remove every fish from your display and place it into a quarantine tank for 10+ weeks.

Without the removal of all your fish for 10+ weeks, your tank will always have ich.

So, if you can treat them, treat them.

If you can not... remove any fish which seems to be a common source of stress for your fish. Try not to stress your fish via tank maintenance... try to think "what is the least stressful way to my fish in accomplishing my task".

For spots here and there feed foods enriched with garlic. For outbreaks, soak foods in Metronidazole.

The biggest things are stress and diet.

However, realize... you never have 100% control of that. If the power goes out you can be SOL.

Bare bottom tanks with increased flow and UV sterilization are a staple against ich in most LFS. It does not eliminate it, but it does minimize it. Remember what I said about a power outtage... you're still SOL.

If you have a fish which is weak, frightened or doesn't eat right... you're SOL.

It will dictate every purchase you hope to make and everything you wish to do until it is cured. I know this because I am in that boat.

[Jstdv8]

I'm all for better safe than sorry, but 10 weeks is not necessary at the temps we keep out saltwater tanks at.
39 days is what is considered the long side of an ich life cycle
So that's about 4.5 weeks
I usually do 6 weeks of copper.
I use cupramine on every fish coming in even if it doesn't show signs.
It's easy to use and not harmful to the fish.

[jamesbaur13]

I'm all for better safe than sorry, but 10 weeks is not necessary at the temps we keep out saltwater tanks at.
39 days is what is considered the long side of an ich life cycle
So that's about 4.5 weeks
I usually do 6 weeks of copper.
I use cupramine on every fish coming in even if it doesn't show signs.
It's easy to use and not harmful to the fish.

You can not treat a reef tank with corals with copper. Copper will absorb into the substrate and live rock. Copper kills corals. You can never keep another coral in that tank once it's been treated with copper.

In a QT tank environment, you are 100% correct. From my understanding though this isn't QT tank, it's a display.

[Jstdv8]

You can not treat a reef tank with corals with copper. Copper will absorb into the substrate and live rock. Copper kills corals. You can never keep another coral in that tank once it's been treated with copper.

In a QT tank environment, you are 100% correct. From my understanding though this isn't QT tank, it's a display.

I never said to treat the dt with copper, I was kinda piggybacking off the second post I guess. I should have been more clear. I thought the others had the whole qt part cleared up.

However, it still doesn't change the timeline of 39 days no matter how you slice it.
If the dt is fish less it's actually going to be considerably less due to the fact you are now taking the possibility of the ich stage inside the fish out of the equation.

[MrTuskfish]

You can not treat a reef tank with corals with copper. Copper will absorb into the substrate and live rock. Copper kills corals. You can never keep another coral in that tank once it's been treated with copper.

In a QT tank environment, you are 100% correct. From my understanding though this isn't QT tank, it's a display.

The myth that you can't ever keep corals in a tank that has been treated with copper just won't die. I think it goes way back to the tanks made with metal frames and back sealant. Copper will not stick to glass or silicone. Check the FAQ on SeaChem's site:http://www.seachem.com/Products/product_pages/Cupramine.html

I hope this isn't a DT. Formeldahyde in a DT sounds like a disaster.

[spieszak]

I'm all for better safe than sorry, but 10 weeks is not necessary at the temps we keep out saltwater tanks at.
39 days is what is considered the long side of an ich life cycle
So that's about 4.5 weeks
I usually do 6 weeks of copper.
I use cupramine on every fish coming in even if it doesn't show signs.
It's easy to use and not harmful to the fish.

I believe this 10+ weeks was referring to the fallow period for the display tank, which is at about the minimum I would trust to ensure that all ich has been removed from the display. While 39 days may cover the ich cycle when treated, more time should be allowed when there is no treatment is being applied in that you could have multiple stages of ich in the DT at the start, and beyond that, whats another couple weeks when you consider that you would prefer to only do this once.
Also, copper is harmful to the fish, as it causes liver damage. Fish recover, but not always 100%. I'm not questioning your practice, but that statement that its not harmful isn't correct.
To whomever recommended garlic, please do a quick google search on that, and note that research has shown that there can be long term ill effects on the fish from its use.

[petere1989]

It's in my display tank. I didn't have a QT tank, although from now on any fish purchase I make I will have one. I really don't have the space, or the room to take out all my fish out of the main tank. I only have a 20 gallon and a small 10 gallon right now, but the 10 gallon has my crabs and a shrimp in it i didn't even know I had still. I really want to cure the entire tank though but i'm needing some different options.

[spieszak]

You aren't going to have a problem finding differing opinions. The validity of each you will have to judge for yourself. As to the "accepted" methods for treatment, you will find all of them in the stickies. The topic has supporters on a lot of fronts, and lots of bad information available. Please take a moment to consider how/why a sticky would become a sticky when making your decision.

[Jstdv8]

I believe this 10+ weeks was referring to the fallow period for the display tank, which is at about the minimum I would trust to ensure that all ich has been removed from the display. While 39 days may cover the ich cycle when treated, more time should be allowed when there is no treatment is being applied in that you could have multiple stages of ich in the DT at the start, and beyond that, whats another couple weeks when you consider that you would prefer to only do this once.
Also, copper is harmful to the fish, as it causes liver damage. Fish recover, but not always 100%. I'm not questioning your practice, but that statement that its not harmful isn't correct.
To whomever recommended garlic, please do a quick google search on that, and note that research has shown that there can be long term ill effects on the fish from its use.

Where do you get your info. The life cycle of ich is the life cycle of ich. The copper only kills it in its final stage which lasts less than 2 days, free swimming. So in a fishless tank you can assume that if the ich took its full 37 days before the last cyst ruptured and became free swimming that you have less than 2 days left of possible free swimming ich and after that the cycle is broken.

It's not like when there are no fish present somehow the cycle gets longer. In fact it is shortened because you would not have to factor in the possible time the ich could still be present in the fish. If you take out the parasitic stage that accounts for 7 days. So nw we are down to 32 days total in a fishless system.

The effects of copper on fish is debatable. I've never lost a fish in qt and never lost a fish in the dt other than 2 that went carpet surfing.

[Sk8r]

There's a lot of misinformation in this thread.
I hope your tank survives the dose. Never a thousand times never treat your display tank with anything. If it doesn't survive, and crashes, likely your live rock will have a hope, but you may have to re-cycle, if it goes down. If it were my tank, right now, I'd get Polyfilter, run it AND carbon, and hope it can pull the stuff from the water.

That said, ich has not that much much to do with stress, per se, since it's an animal, a parasite: it may successfully attack when a fish's slime coat is compromised by low alkalinity or by prolonged shipment conditions that destroyed the slime coat; but, being an animal, it cannot attack if it is not already in the tank.

My advice is run the carbon and Polyfilter, cross your fingers, get your alkalinity to 8.3, and hope. The ich, having multiplied, will now head for your sandbed. Your best hope is getting that water quality up to snuff, because the infestation, like fleas in the carpet, will try to return soon. Your greatest problem now is not the risk of losing your fish, which may happen if you cannot get them into treatment, but that the tank itself may crash, in which case it's a do-over.
Sorry to bear so much negative news, and I'm crossing fingers you make it out of this losing neither fish nor tank, but read those stickies at the top of this forum!

[MrTuskfish]

Where do you get your info. The life cycle of ich is the life cycle of ich. The copper only kills it in its final stage which lasts less than 2 days, free swimming. So in a fishless tank you can assume that if the ich took its full 37 days before the last cyst ruptured and became free swimming that you have less than 2 days left of possible free swimming ich and after that the cycle is broken.

It's not like when there are no fish present somehow the cycle gets longer. In fact it is shortened because you would not have to factor in the possible time the ich could still be present in the fish. If you take out the parasitic stage that accounts for 7 days. So nw we are down to 32 days total in a fishless system.

The effects of copper on fish is debatable. I've never lost a fish in qt and never lost a fish in the dt other than 2 that went carpet surfing.

Here is why the life-cycle of ich varies so much, as spieszak referred to above. Just the 1st post says it all. The time of the ich life cycle is only a "norm" and fish don't read it. This is why 37 days is nowhere near enough time to allow a tank to go fishless. Even at 42 days, 5% of ich cysts will remain. http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2041951 Snorvich, the author of this thread, is a true expert in all things related to ich. There are studies that show a few ich cysts can even go well beyond 12 weeks before releasing their offspring.

[petere1989]

I went today to another fish place, and was told to use Ich Attack. He said to treat with the icy-x for 3 treatments and then start using ich attack. I also got some garlic drops to use on my food. I think the smell is incrusted into my nose. I fed 4 hours ago and can still smell that stuff. very potent. but I was told that it will make the ich not want to attach to the fish eventually. it may be in the tank though still, it doesn't solve the problem, but does help protect the fish. (first time i have heard of garlic)

[Jstdv8]

Here is why the life-cycle of ich varies so much, as spieszak referred to above. Just the 1st post says it all. The time of the ich life cycle is only a "norm" and fish don't read it. This is why 37 days is nowhere near enough time to allow a tank to go fishless. Even at 42 days, 5% of ich cysts will remain. http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2041951 Snorvich, the author of this thread, is a true expert in all things related to ich. There are studies that show a few ich cysts can even go well beyond 12 weeks before releasing their offspring.

I guess the ich my tang had when he went in QT from the store must have read the manual.

[MrTuskfish]

I went today to another fish place, and was told to use Ich Attack. He said to treat with the icy-x for 3 treatments and then start using ich attack. I also got some garlic drops to use on my food. I think the smell is incrusted into my nose. I fed 4 hours ago and can still smell that stuff. very potent. but I was told that it will make the ich not want to attach to the fish eventually. it may be in the tank though still, it doesn't solve the problem, but does help protect the fish. (first time i have heard of garlic)

Garlic does nothing for ich. It may help a fish's immune system over time. But you need to cure ich now. Ich Attack is another in a long line of miracle cures that will not eliminate ich; I don't think the bottle even claims to cure ich, it just claims to help with diseases "caused" by ich. The ingredients are just a 5% mix of some secret herbals. How a product can claim to cure ich, but not hurt anything else? If you want to keep looking for a product that cures ich in a DT, its your money and your fish. There just isn't any way. This is probably the most common topic topic on the disease forum and it always turns out the same. If you can't or won't use a QT; ich will return with a new fish in the future.

[Sk8r]

Advice from fish stores varies in quality. Don't ever treat ich in your dt.

[spieszak]

Garlic
excerpt
So why not use garlic in marine fish diets.

1 Long term heart and liver lesions

Terrestrial plant lipids are well known to cause heart and liver lesions in marine fish. The problem with feeding terrestrial plant oils (not just garlic but any terrestrial plant oil) to reef fish is problematic due the nature of the lipids the fish do not possess the enzymes to digest them correctly and this leads to fatty deposits and serious pathological changes in the heart and liver of fish that are fed these lipids. Although these are not instantly fatal they cause chronic change to these organs and long term deterioration in the health of the fish. Granted much of this his work is done on farmed fish, but it is a well known phenomena and here are some of the research papers that detail this problem.
full post: http://166.78.194.232/forums/showpost.php?p=21177073&postcount=8

[QUOTE]I guess the ich my tang had when he went in QT from the store must have read the manual. [QUOTE] For the sake of you tank and other fish, I hope he did. I'm not debating you on what you've read as far as life cycle. I'm advising caution in that there are other knowledgeable folks posting about studies that state that it can/will last longer. A few more weeks as a cautionary measure, in a hobby that should be filled with patience, shouldn't be a terrible burden. If you do 39 days, based on the information you've read, then that is your choice. It just doesn't make sense to me when you consider the other information available. Its just a few more weeks. When I do the cost/benefit analysis on that, I see much more benefit of waiting than I do "rushing"
As to reef safe treatments. It pains me to see another person walking that road. Its not just that I personally feel there is tank crash in the making, its that the makers of these products is profiting from that, and therefore profiting from what will likely be the death of fish, and the emotional toll on the hobbyist. And by profiting, they will continue to push forth reef safe treatments that are questionable at best, likely leading to the death of fish, etc..
There are always lots of factors that go into any choice that is made. If you believe that the choice you've made is the best for your current scenario, then I wish you luck with it. My only caution is to note that if you have doubt in your choice, and things don't go well, its the fact that you doubted your choice that will bother you as much if not more than the actual outcome itself.

[MrTuskfish]

^^^^^I agree.^^^^^
Even without the evidence from spieszak above, I just see no reason to use it. My fish always have a great appetite and there are plenty of good vitamin substances available. I think the people who started using garlic intended is as only an appetite enhancer; but its become the first choice to cure parasites for a lot of folks. A lot of fish have died because of this myth; while real treatment is delayed. IMO. the word "garlic" should just be banned from the fish disease forum. It doesn't do any more than pickle relish when it comes to eliminating parasites.

[petere1989]

The guy I use at the fish store said that you give them garlic, it comes through on their slime coat and parasites won't want to attach themselves to the fish.

[MrTuskfish]

The guy I use at the fish store said that you give them garlic, it comes through on their slime coat and parasites won't want to attach themselves to the fish.

The guy doesn't have a clue. You can search for years and never find the answer you're looking for. You cannot cure ich in a DT. Its really that simple. I'm not trying to lecture; but your dilemma has bees posted, in one way or another, countless times on this forum. While you are busy looking for an easier way, your fish likely will start to die. Maybe today, tomorrow, or next week. The ich always wins.

[wooden_reefer]

No matter what you plan to do to eradicate, in general, eradication of ich by both active treatment in QT and fallow period in DT will be many weeks of duration.

The only correct thing is to prepare to support the fish in QT for weeks, 6-12 weeks depending on your belief. This will require an effective nitrification filter.

So the only correct thing to do now is to start a cycle using the fishless ("livestock-less) method, either in the QT if it is not used or in a separate container.

WC to remove ammonia when there is no nitrification is a very demanding task. You cannot just siphon 25% of the water daily. You have to remove all particles of poops and uneaten food that will generate ammonia. This often mean, if the bioload is high, 100% WC with transfer of livestock so that all such particles are removed, and ammonia accumulation starts anew each day or 12-hour period.

TTM is not an option when infestation in DT has already occured and a fallow period is needed. You do not want to do massive WC for the entire fallow period.

[nynick]

Stop going to that fish store. Either they are lying to you for profit or they don't have a clue what they are doing.

Most of us have early in the hobby contracted Ich and most of us did exactly what you are doing now, going into a frenzy trying to find a miracle cure. We all failed and so will you.

You have 2 options.

1. Keep your fish extremely healthy and hope for the best. Not recommended but it can work out...sometimes. There are ways to up your odds here such as good size UV units, gravel vacuming, different filters, diatom filters etc but they are not cures and vary wildly in effectiveness.

2. Get your fish into a QT and keep them there for 8 weeks to allow for all Ich in DT to die while treating the fish.

These are your only options.

[wooden_reefer]

Stop going to that fish store. Either they are lying to you for profit or they don't have a clue what they are doing.

Most of us have early in the hobby contracted Ich and most of us did exactly what you are doing now, going into a frenzy trying to find a miracle cure. We all failed and so will you.

You have 2 options.

1. Keep your fish extremely healthy and hope for the best. Not recommended but it can work out...sometimes. There are ways to up your odds here such as good size UV units, gravel vacuming, different filters, diatom filters etc but they are not cures and vary wildly in effectiveness.

2. Get your fish into a QT and keep them there for 8 weeks to allow for all Ich in DT to die while treating the fish.

These are your only options.

Bad advise is not a valid reason to stop going to a certain store. Just don't listen.

Even a store that can give good advice will not QT fish for you rigorously enough. So a LFS that is not too bright can still be a passable source of livestock.

[nynick]

A specialist store that does not know the basics of their field? This would be a very good reason not to go back.

There are plenty of passionate and knowledgeable hobbyists in this business that genuinely care about their livestock and customers. It is better for the hobby and better for your wallet to go to them if at all possible.

[wooden_reefer]

Ich is a fact of life for this hobby; ich infestation is due to lack of dilution effect of the ocean after collection.

Whether a LFS knows how to or the need to eradicate it does not reflect the physiological condition of a certain fish in that store. particularily wrt ich.

Ich is curable and whether it happens at the LFS or after you have bought the fish is just a matter of chance.

Eradication of ich is a very lenghty procedure and a LFS is not expected to eradicate ich for a customer. Just don't listen and observe the physiological condition of the fish.

If there are many choices of LFS in an area, you may say a LFS that gives poor advice should not be catered to, but when there a few choices, one has to be incisive in seeing what the truth really is.

The LFS is generally a poor source of advice, period.

[petere1989]

Stop going to that fish store. Either they are lying to you for profit or they don't have a clue what they are doing.

Most of us have early in the hobby contracted Ich and most of us did exactly what you are doing now, going into a frenzy trying to find a miracle cure. We all failed and so will you.

You have 2 options.

1. Keep your fish extremely healthy and hope for the best. Not recommended but it can work out...sometimes. There are ways to up your odds here such as good size UV units, gravel vacuming, different filters, diatom filters etc but they are not cures and vary wildly in effectiveness.

2. Get your fish into a QT and keep them there for 8 weeks to allow for all Ich in DT to die while treating the fish.

These are your only options.

I'm not going into a frenzy. My tank is running normally and all the fish appear ich free for the time being, eating well, and everying is kosher. I'm just reading and trying to find out information. As for my LFS, you don't go there, so don't put down the store. He may or may not know what he's talking about. Things he's told me in the past have worked just fine. Anythings worth trying. Your saying I should just say "yup, i'm going to fail." thats a great way to look at it. why not try something. it may or may not work. who cares. I'm sure all of you have tried different things and has heard wrong things at a LFS before too. its not just mine, and its not just me.

[Jstdv8]

I'm not going into a frenzy. My tank is running normally and all the fish appear ich free for the time being, eating well, and everying is kosher. I'm just reading and trying to find out information. As for my LFS, you don't go there, so don't put down the store. He may or may not know what he's talking about. Things he's told me in the past have worked just fine. Anythings worth trying. Your saying I should just say "yup, i'm going to fail." thats a great way to look at it. why not try something. it may or may not work. who cares. I'm sure all of you have tried different things and has heard wrong things at a LFS before too. its not just mine, and its not just me.

The problem you may run into is if it does not cure the ich (and I tend to agree it probably wont it will just get the fish looking healthy but they will still be present in the system) Now while they are eating well and active and all that is the best time to combat the issue.
You may go a year without ever seeing the ich again until something like a heater malfunction or a power outage stresses your fish and then the ich will rear its ugly head again.
Ich can go a long time without being physically seen on the fish because when the fish are healthy and not stressed the ich lives in their unprotected gills.
So what i'm trying to say i guess is the fish may not show signs and you will think they are cured because of the ich-x or whatever you used. But in reality its very likely that its still there just waiting for something to go wrong to stress out your fish and next time you may not be so lucky with them getting over it.
imo now is the best time to treat it with proven tactics.
just my .02 :)

[nynick]

I am sry if you took offense to my post, none was intended.

I never said that you will fail, I told you what would not work and what would. Most of us have tried different things and they did all fail besides fallow and medicate in QT. Just trying to save you some money and time.

[Arnel0387]

So i just treated my tank with Ich-x. The instructions say repeat dosing every 24 hours but no longer then 8 hours. what exactly does that mean? I'm confused of when I should do the water change.

Tank-transfer and then prazipro works best for me!

[petere1989]

I am sry if you took offense to my post, none was intended.

I never said that you will fail, I told you what would not work and what would. Most of us have tried different things and they did all fail besides fallow and medicate in QT. Just trying to save you some money and time.

not offended. its cool. just a little frustraited is all. there are a few other LFS in the area I am going to go to tomorrow to get different opinions. thanks to everyone who chipped in!!

[sleepydoc]

I feel your frustration - I would just read what snorvich has to say. He knows more about ich than just about anyone else around.

As people have mentioned, the problem with ich is that fish can harbor it asymptomatically, so you think it's cured, but it's just suppressed. The fact that your fish are doing well is good - you've got time to read, research and plan your next step.

[SeedlessOne]

not offended. its cool. just a little frustraited is all. there are a few other LFS in the area I am going to go to tomorrow to get different opinions. thanks to everyone who chipped in!!

You have been given the best advice by some very smart people. You are not going to find a cure for ich by going to each Lfs. I would stop ignoring good advice.

Black and white. You have three choices for curing ich. That's it. The rest is a waste of money. All of them require you to take livestock out of the dt. If you don't want to do that you will always have ich in your tank. Simple as that.

[MrTuskfish]

I feel your frustration - I would just read what snorvich has to say. He knows more about ich than just about anyone else around.


Very true.