View Full Version : How much is a good LFS worth?
thallone
03/31/2013, 10:07 PM
Strange title. But it's a serious question that I'm struggling with right now as I get back into reefing.
How much is your LFS really worth, pr, put another way, how much premium should you be willing to pay to buy local rather than from some website or other source? Granted, I know the support of websites keeps this place running, but the knowledge of a good LFS is a great thing to have too.
I'm especially interested in dry goods pricing, as livestock it is invaluavle to be able to see before you buy.
michael.lemke
03/31/2013, 10:10 PM
Local economy, new hobbies, a good lfs is very important.
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Sonyardo
03/31/2013, 10:23 PM
I rarely purchase dry good from a lfs unless it's an emergency. Then the premium is worth it. A good example is your last heater failing.
SUPERSTOCKRACER
04/01/2013, 05:47 AM
overhead is brutal for a LFS. electricity,rent, payroll,theft, death of livestock,plus stocking the store. nowadays it is almost impossible to stay afloat due to internet buying.
So 25-50% might not even work to break even unless you sell volume.
thallone
04/01/2013, 06:40 AM
Thanks for the input all. I appreciate the perspective. I definitely prefer to buy local. It's just hard to justify (as an example) $3/lb for dry rock if I can get it to my door for $1.50. OTOH, I'm more than happy to pay for the convenience of liverock that I can get on my schedule thanks to the lfs.
Reeferz412
04/01/2013, 09:38 AM
You can take off down here in Miami. I don't think I know anyone who buys online here, they just trade with people or the Lfs. I go to my Lfs every once and a while for chemi pure and you wouldn't believe some of the mark ups I see. And the amount of customers. Of course the Lfs I go to has been established for many years.
saltysailor2329
04/01/2013, 10:21 AM
One of the stores I go to up the road sells a bunch of stuff that he buys direct from BRS. He marks up what you would pay for shipping and sells it at that cost. Not bad when you are in a pinch and need something quickly.
borderreef
04/01/2013, 10:31 AM
Dry goods are tough for smaller stores to compete with the internet, and I know of a couple that only carry the basic stuff, but have great livestock.
As to the answer to the question "how much is a good LFS worth"...priceless.
jaybfresh
04/01/2013, 11:38 AM
I must be lucky because my LFS will match online prices on dry goods (or at least they used to... I haven't needed to ask in a couple years). They also ordered me a Miracles custom tank at cost.
usmc121581
04/01/2013, 11:42 AM
I wish I could walk into a LFS now, all the ones around me dont deal with Saltwater, or the ones that did closed up.
Allmost
04/01/2013, 11:47 AM
ive made friends with my LFS over the years.
for dry good, I get price of online + tax + delivery .... so at the end, I do not overpay that much. but in turn, we have a great relation, I can actually ask him to hunt down certain fish or corals for me and so on.
this is specially important when setting up a new tank ... look for the stuf u need online, make a list and prices and so on, take it to LFS and ask him straight up .... ask if he wants to come close to it. most of the LFS will match it or come very close to it, cause they know once u get the tank and equipment, ure gonna need fish and corals .., so the relation is kind of their loyalty program ! they take less profit on the dr good or give u at cost, so to make u feel guilty to come back and get the fish from the same place. this works out perfect with both parties.
KeithB
04/01/2013, 11:54 AM
A good LFS is priceless on many levels. With that said, a lot of the ones in my area are now only carrying the basics for dry good and going primarily livestock.
ReachTheSky
04/01/2013, 12:04 PM
Like others in this thread, I'm willing to pay a premium for emergency replacement. It's good for them and good for me. But when does a premium turn into extortion? When my return pump died, I visited my LFS to purchase an emergency replacement. When I realized that that he wanted 4x the online price for the pump I wanted and wouldn't budge, I decided not to buy it. If I couldn't find it locally, I was going to improvise my DT so the fish could breath and wait it out. Fortunately another store had a different brand pump for a reasonable price but obviously still at a premium. Despite being really far away, I drove.
I've seen a ton of LFS's open and close in my area. Two particular ones come to mind: One that's been open for 20+ years and another that just celebrated it's 10th. I think the fact that they survived and actually seem to be doing very well is due to the fact that both of them are well known and often get hired to go to peoples homes and put together tanks for them. When you think about it, I'm sure there are a TON of people who really want tanks but don't know anything about them and can't be bothered to learn or work for it. They'd be more than willing to pay a premium to have someone do it for them.
GroktheCube
04/01/2013, 12:10 PM
Depends on the item. The LR for my tank I purchased online, because it was cheaper than the price the LFS could get me if I went in on his next LR order and got a whole box.
However, I got other items from them, and most of the "big ticket" ones were cheaper than online. The price I paid for my skimmer was $50 less than what the cheapest online vendor I found was selling it for.
I am willing to pay a slight premium on dry good, because I really like being able to see livestock before I purchase it. The LFS provides that service,and they provide it for far less than places like DD. My LFS will also hunt down specific animals for me, and get me very reasonable pricing on them. At one point a few years ago, for example, they were able to get me half a dozen altum angelfish (FW) for only about 25% more than WC scalare usually go for.
Setting up my 120, I'd say I split about 50/50 online vs LFS, depending on the item.
MrClam
04/01/2013, 12:18 PM
As a business model an LFS that relies on dry good sales is going to fail. There simply are not enough people willing to pay extra money with no personal benefit (myself included). I keep a backup for most essential items so see no reason to spend more so that someone else can make a profit.
Squidmotron
04/01/2013, 12:27 PM
Are they a charity now? Seems odd to me to give them a markup at all. Never found one that has any better customer service than an online place.
And I don't think there's any special reason to buy fish at an LFS either.
Allmost
04/01/2013, 12:32 PM
Are they a charity now? Seems odd to me to give them a markup at all. Never found one that has any better customer service than an online place.
And I don't think there's any special reason to buy fish at an LFS either.
well you have access to great sites like Live aquaria, which give you garantee and this and that. so its reasonable for you to not see the benefits of watching a fish you want to buy, being able to make special orders and requests, holding the fish you want in for you till you come in having first pick on new shipments and so on.
we dont have such things up here. [Canada] so buying online is a gamble !
about better customer service, if your pump breaks on a weekend, most likely u wont be able to reach anyone online, all u can do is email them and come on here and say they didnt reply, but with a store, u simply go in :)
running a store has its extra costs, which gets passed down to the consumer, and shows up on the price tag of dry goods. when you buy online, many times your items will NOT be delivered to you from the place you ordered, but from a wholesaler, so the online site is just passing down the order to their wholesaler, and making a profit from it, a store has to buy the items and stock them and sit on it for months if not years to sell it :)
coralsnaked
04/01/2013, 12:41 PM
Livestock LFS only however I'm pretty lucky as i have a good selection of LFS in Austin
Equipment and supplies Online only however I also buy premixed water from a local LFS who mixes 100 gal to my specifications including supplimenting to acheive specific foundation params
borderreef
04/02/2013, 04:19 PM
I have one lfs that I frequent often (too often if you ask my wife). They have great knowledge and great customer service. They'll find anything you want, from livestock to hard goods. They do custom tanks in store, and maintain tanks for business customers. I've been going there for about 6 years, and they just keep growing. 45 minutes up the Mass Pike is a store that has been in business for 20+ years. Anyone from my area will know who they are. They carry everything (except the 60" t-5 bulbs I need). Their livestock asssortment is incredable. All of their hard goods are WAY overpriced than online, even if you pay shipping. If you catch them on a good day, the employees will talk to you and give good advise. But most times they won't even say hi. I went in one day and there were at least 7 people working the floor. Not one said hello. I could have been in there to spend hundreds, but they did not care. I don't make the drive to go there specifically, but if I'm in the area, I stop in to check things out.
TimeConsumer
04/02/2013, 04:32 PM
If it weren't for one of the salesmen (and now my friend) at a to-be-unnamed-LFS here in Louisiana I wouldn't be in the hobby. My first day I went to their store just to look and think about getting into reefkeeping I didn't realize they just closed, he reopened the shop just to show me around and talk to me about it. If it weren't for him I wouldn't have a tank.
Oh, and for most big dry goods (skimmers, lights, etc) that they carry they will match any online price you find. They also custom build tanks, stands, sumps, skimmers. If you pay cash they don't charge you tax no matter what you purchase, so that saves me a bunch of money (shhh, don't tell anyone!) They will buy back just about any invert, coral, or fish for store credit, even if you didn't get it from them originally. And thanks to their 800 gallon display tank they have plenty of room if you need a place for the 8" sohal tang you decided to put in your 90 gallon tank. And if you need some guns or ammo, they can help you out in that department too!
Love my LFS.
Ron Reefman
04/02/2013, 04:43 PM
It's a rare day that I visit an LFS. And the last 2 or 3 times I've had a semi-emergency and went to the 3 LFS in my area, none of them had what I needed anyway. I'm not saying they aren't useful, just not useful to me. I keep inventory and backups for almost everything. But I know a lot of people don't like to buy live animals online and some people just are prepared for emergencies, so for them an LFS is a good thing.
Mr. Bill
04/02/2013, 04:47 PM
I guess I just like shopping. :)
Buying online is nice, but then you have limitations. You can't actually watch a fish or see if it eats. You can't hand-pick anything- you get what's sent (fish, corals, rocks, etc). Then if your order is under a certain amount, you have that ridiculous shipping fee. All that, along with the ability to have what you want right now, makes a trip to the LFS just a little more attractive.
Windirmere
04/02/2013, 05:18 PM
The place im gonna get my tank from in the invoice gave me the same price for a Radion pro as the internet @.@
Unome
04/02/2013, 05:22 PM
Local economy, new hobbies, a good lfs is very important. +1 to that.
If you have a problem with equipment or critters, how is the online store you bought it from going to help you out? A LFS that you have supported might be willing to work with you & help you out.
Dozer1one
04/02/2013, 06:50 PM
I spend my money at my LFS i bavnt ordered a single thing online,They price match all the major websites and im supporting a local business. However my lfs,( the hidden reef) is an exception you might not hae one local to you tat carries what you need at the price you want
A "Good" LFS will know what online vendors are doing and will compete with them as much as they can. I expect dry goods to be pretty close to what they are online. Livestock I usually expect to be a bit more then typical online prices...
I drive 90 miles each way to go to my LFS of choice and I buy as much as I possibly can from them. I enjoy the store. I want them to stay open and shelves stay stocked so I can continue to enjoy visiting them. ;)
biecacka
04/02/2013, 08:55 PM
Treg, where do you go? Salty Critter?
I wanna get up there soon I go to Phishy since I can walk there! :lol:
Corey
Yes.
Those guys treat you right and they all know the hobby inside and out.
They appreciate your business and I appreciate that. I don't buy a lot of stuff anymore but whenever possible, I buy from them.
ashish
04/02/2013, 11:42 PM
Its a shame that LFS are struggling right now, this is not about knowing your corals or fish, its about not having a clue in how to run a business. I want to open a LFS some day but I will aquaculture my own corals and sell online. We all rather purchase corals from LFS but the problem is most don't have good livestock. This is the only way a LFS can compete with online markets (become online base as well as LFS). It can be done look at vivid aquariums - small shop with very little inventory but vivid corals! He said he gets about 100 delivery orders per week and from what's I have seen, charges a lot more than the top online vendors. Vivid charges ridiculous amounts for frags and does just fine because this is an impulsive hobby.
When I open my shop it's going to be 5000 gallons tops, immaculate website/ wysiwg, & great customer service. Most of my livestock will come from mother colonies and I will offere 2" frags for the same price vendors charge for 1'' pieces. I am against charge $50-80 for a 1'' frag - Not happening on my watch especially since a mother colonie can produce a 1'' in a matter of 1 month. Corals will grow fast once you figure out the best flow and light set-up. These local fish stores have to make money in every way they can.
Most LFS are sick of window shopping customers and have a tendency to ignore people who they thing are window shopping. Turn these window shoppers into customers. Offer set-up and weekly maintenance services. These things can bring extra revenue from a new wealthy customer (who has no clue about reef keeping but is willing to pay). A lot of times some LFS workers scare away potential by scaring them senseless. Theres no such thing as too much service in a LFS the more service I get the better... In a department store I don't want help unless I ask.
These are just my ideas on how a LFS can win. Keep the cost low, Keep the staff to a minimum, quarantine, know your fish, coral, equipment, continuous marketing/advertising is key, Livestock quality has to match service.
There are amazing places such as reef systems (ohio), who have amazing corals and prices but lack continuous marketing. I know this for a fact because reefsystem is selling montipora 5 packs for $75 (1.5"+). They could triple there revenue if they had a marketing team like liveaquaria or marinedepot working on there website, FB, and RC daily. It's privately owned by Todd who has some of the coolest corals but he definately could use some help in marketing.
Moort82
04/03/2013, 05:24 AM
If you buy a product online and it fails, won't you wish that you would have supported your lfs who could sort the problem out there and then? worth a slight premium!
The problem i see is that you may be compairing like for like in terms of goods but lots of online only companies have huge buying power so there is no way that a lfs could price match. So a premium is needed to achieve the same profit margin, perhaps even a smaller one. So just because they are more expensive, doesn't mean they are taking you for a ride.
modernREEF
04/03/2013, 10:22 AM
If I spend money on dry goods at a LFS I pretty much consider it a favour to them. Not sure why people are having catastrophic failures of equipment on weekends necessitating an emergency trip to the store?
Stop buying stuff marked up at the store and use the money for backup equipment.
MrClam
04/03/2013, 11:08 AM
If you buy a product online and it fails, won't you wish that you would have supported your lfs who could sort the problem out there and then? worth a slight premium!
The problem i see is that you may be compairing like for like in terms of goods but lots of online only companies have huge buying power so there is no way that a lfs could price match. So a premium is needed to achieve the same profit margin, perhaps even a smaller one. So just because they are more expensive, doesn't mean they are taking you for a ride.
I bought livestock from LA and when one of the fish was DOA they gave me a refund. No questions asked. Some of the LFS that I know will not give refunds on livestock at all, or ask for water samples ect.
I dont disagree with your second point, but what is my incentive to provide this profit margin for them? If I can get guarantees and warantees from online vendors for a cheaper price I will.
Moort82
04/03/2013, 03:11 PM
I bought livestock from LA and when one of the fish was DOA they gave me a refund. No questions asked. Some of the LFS that I know will not give refunds on livestock at all, or ask for water samples ect.
I dont disagree with your second point, but what is my incentive to provide this profit margin for them? If I can get guarantees and warantees from online vendors for a cheaper price I will.
Well that's where opinions differ either side of the Atlantic. We don't have an online fish supplier with the reputation of LA over hear. In truth very few people would even agree with sending out fish through the post. Corals are however gaining popularity though postage and the good companies have been found. They also are successful through reputation which is why they could afford like LA to look after you. Unfortunately most lfs can't so need a water sample.
I do agree with your second point as well but for one of those who prefers to see exactly what they are buying, i'd pay extra to make sure i can continue to do that in the future.
There is also a problem over here at the moment with cheap chinese imports. People are going for them in the hopes of saving some money. Bubble magus is a popular range, however when people get a problem and discover that they either have to send it back to china and wait for a replacement, or order a new one and then send the other back for a refund, they discover that buying cheap isn't always wise. So spending a few extra quid with a lfs might have actually saved them a pretty penny.
Sonyardo
04/06/2013, 06:29 PM
I used to like to drive around to all the fish stores within reasonable driving distance. A while back I drove to one that also does business online. I made a couple of hundred dollar purchase on livestock. A few corals and a couple of small fish. One of the inexpensive fish didn't make it 24hrs. I was kinda liking the store and thought I will just drive back over and get a replacement since they are competitive that way online. I was shocked when the goofball told me they don't honor their online policies to local customers. I drove an hour to go there both times. Sometimes the LFS owners are their own worst enemies. Needless to say, I haven't bothered going back and all I was looking for was a $10 comp. I doubt that even covered my gas. I suspect that the LFS brown goods pricing is geared more for profit then to retain good customers. Many of them are missing the boat on that one.
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