Going without dosing!?!

[simpp88]

My question is really, what should I expect by going without dosing Ca and alk? I have decided to go with weekly 10% water changes rather than dosing. My tank is 46 gallons, I have a skimmer rated for 150 gallons in a sump with a refugium + chaeto and I am running GFO. I came to this decision as I know a local reefer with an awesome tank and he grows LPS and SPS great, but he doesn't dose, only does 10% weekly water changes. Also, my LFS goes without dosing and has good results. I realize that I should expect slower growth of corals, but besides that do you foresee any issues?

[Gary Majchrzak]

do you foresee any issues?sure do: skewed water parameters as calcium, alkalinity and magnesium are consumed by calcifying organisms.

Unless you're doing 100% water changes or "dosing" (actually supplementing) major constituants of seawater that are being depleted you WILL run into problems. It's simply a matter of time.

Trying to keep Ca, dKH and Mg levels up with strictly water changes can be very expensive. Learn how to dose/supplement these!


Reef Chemistry Articles (http://archive.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=102605)

make sure to read How to select a calcium and alkalinity supplementation scheme

[dastowers]

Great question and answer. It reminds me of the co2 fear on the freshwater side. New equipment..lots to learn. A very basic explanation would help. :-)

[hollister]

Really want to go by your readings. But 10% weekly changes may be a little much. I would do 20% per month and see if that works. With low stock this should be fine. But as tank ages and stock grows and 20% monthly changes dont keep up then adding suppliments maybe needed.

Its about finding your balance. Everybody is differant.

[Gary Majchrzak]

Great question and answer. It reminds me of the co2 fear on the freshwater side. New equipment..lots to learn. A very basic explanation would help. :-)think of your aquarium as a big bowl of soup. Not only are major and minor elements of seawater being depleted by (hopefully) growing reef animals but many critters harbor allelopathic metabolites in order to become "king of the hill" (ie: take over your reef aquarium.)

This is why water changes IN ADDITION to supplementation is the best course of action in a reef aquarium.

[cap032]

Supplementing will be dependant on what and how much you have in the tank. If you have a tank full of sps, water changes alone probably wont cut it. However a tank with mostly softies may be fine.

[Palting]

My question is really, what should I expect by going without dosing Ca and alk? I have decided to go with weekly 10% water changes rather than dosing. My tank is 46 gallons, I have a skimmer rated for 150 gallons in a sump with a refugium + chaeto and I am running GFO. I came to this decision as I know a local reefer with an awesome tank and he grows LPS and SPS great, but he doesn't dose, only does 10% weekly water changes. Also, my LFS goes without dosing and has good results. I realize that I should expect slower growth of corals, but besides that do you foresee any issues?

It depends on the salt, the livestock, and the salinity you keep things at. Salt like Reef Crystals will carry a higher calcium, alk, and mag at a salinity of 1.026, and if your livestock is not too heavy on stonies, your 10% water changes may be good enough to keep parameters within the good range. I have an SPS dominated tank in a 200 gallon system, did 10% (20 gallon) water changes with Reef Crystals once a week, kept the salinity at 1.026. It was over a year before I saw a dip in the parameters, and almost 18 months before I had to start dosing. With the heavy growth of the stonies, plus their dominant numbers in the tank, I am now heavily dosing at 3 years. If I kept more softies instead of the SPS dominance, I can honestly say that I may never have needed to dose at all.

Just continue your water change regimen and keep your salinity at 1.025-1.026, and check your parameters routinely. Your tank will tell you if you need to dose, eventually or not at all..

[jamesbaur13]

Sure, you can try to put together a tank with that goal in mind.

Executing that plan is another story.

If you're in the mindset where you refuse to supplement because of others success you may be completely ignoring the needs of your tank.

[disc1]

My question is really, what should I expect by going without dosing Ca and alk? I have decided to go with weekly 10% water changes rather than dosing. My tank is 46 gallons, I have a skimmer rated for 150 gallons in a sump with a refugium + chaeto and I am running GFO. I came to this decision as I know a local reefer with an awesome tank and he grows LPS and SPS great, but he doesn't dose, only does 10% weekly water changes. Also, my LFS goes without dosing and has good results. I realize that I should expect slower growth of corals, but besides that do you foresee any issues?

I'm thinking about switching to size 6 shoes. I know they won't really fit on my feet, but I know this guy and he wears size 6 and he runs really fast. I want to be able to run real fast so I'm going to buy smaller shoes.

See how ridiculous that sounds?

The answer is you have to test the water. IF your tests show that you are maintaining levels without dosing, then you don't need to dose. But if your alk and or calcium start to fall you'll have a bunch of sad looking coral on your hands. And pretty soon after that you'll have a FOWLR.

[kurt_n]

Actually... you don't even need coral to need to dose! When I started, my coralline algae took off like wild fire. I had one itty bitty coral in the tank. I did 10% weekly water changes in my 46g tank. (Sound familiar?) And then all my coralline started turning white. Tested my calcium levels and they were in the low 300s even though my newly made salt water was close to 400. The coralline algae was sucking it out of my water faster than I could put it back in. (And I learned how to scrape glass really well!)

Once I got my calcium/alk levels back up to where they were supposed to be, I started dosing. As my reef has grown, so has my dosing schedule.

Do you need to dose now when you're just starting out? No. Will you need to dose later? Maybe - but it all depends on what your water parameters are telling you. What happens if you don't dose when your calcium/alk levels are too low? Anything that depends on calcium dies off.

[cloak]

FWIW, I only have a 20 gallon tank right now. (mixed) I use 1 Teaspoon of Seachem Reef Builder to every 5 gallons of top off water. (ATO) This keeps my alk pretty steady at 8. Calcium, magnesium, I have no idea... Out of sight, out of mind pretty much. I do change about 20% of water every week though. (Coralife)

I'm not getting the kind of growth that others might, but these corals do seem to stick around for awhile...

It's a marathon, not a sprint... ;)

[Reefer_Addickt]

It really comes down to this:

Dosing will make everything more happy,colorful and healthy.

You want things to be colorful and healthy because you enjoy looking at it.

You buy new livestock for it's color and health.

Therefore, do what needs to be done to make it the most happy and healthy, in turn your joy of the hobby will be increased.


It takes very little time out of life to dose your tank, especially when you've already set aside time to keep a reef.

[biggles]

You can buy supplements very cheaply now such as BRS etc and don't have to have a dosing pump - a plastic container with airline tubing and a control valve will let you drip alk and cal over 24 hours so i'd urge you to consider the wise advice offered previously by experienced reef keepers. You want your corals to thrive, not just survive in your tank. :)

[Palting]

Guys, I just want to make sure to make a point. Dosing by itself doesn't mean your coral will grow better. Neither does not dosing, by itself, mean your coral will get stunted. Dosing or not dosing appropriately is the point I'm making. Inappropriately dosing can kill coral just as quickly as inappropriately not dosing. Check your parameters routinely. If alk/cal/mag are being consumed, then you need to dose. If they are stable and within range, then you do not need to dose. If, OTOH, you are talking about dosing amino acids, vitamins, essential snake oils and stuff, that's a whole 'nother story. Especially the essential snake oils :D.

[nynick]

Question, why is it that you do not want to dose alk and calcium?

Besides turning the lights on and putting water in your tank your alk/ca balance is pretty much the most important thing there is for a reef tank. It is also cheap as dirt and fairly easy. Just use Kalk for topoff and 90% of the work is done.

I admit that this hobby can get a little nuts from time to time with tech stuff and what brand of test you just can not live without. We argue wildly and call eachother idiots but we all agree on the alkalinity bit.

When thousands of reefers agree on something you know there just isn't anything what so ever to disagree on. :)

[Palting]

Question, why is it that you do not want to dose alk and calcium?

Besides turning the lights on and putting water in your tank your alk/ca balance is pretty much the most important thing there is for a reef tank. It is also cheap as dirt and fairly easy. Just use Kalk for topoff and 90% of the work is done.

I admit that this hobby can get a little nuts from time to time with tech stuff and what brand of test you just can not live without. We argue wildly and call eachother idiots but we all agree on the alkalinity bit.

When thousands of reefers agree on something you know there just isn't anything what so ever to disagree on. :)

I suppose you're asking me, right? I do dose alk and calcium, because tests of my parameters say my tank needs me to. I do not want to dose alk and calcium if my tank doesn't need it. If you dose even if your tank does not need it, your alk will exceed the recommended range (7-11 dKH), as will your calcium (380-450 ppm). Too high numbers are bad, just as too low numbers are. That's why the general recommendation is, do not dose unless you can test for it. I don't believe anyone here can disagree with any statement I just made :).

[Gary Majchrzak]

I don't believe anything discussed should be taken personally.
One of the golden rules of reef keeping is to never dose what you don't test for.

I think we are all under the assumption that the OP will be testing levels of calcium and alkalinity. Perhaps we were wrong.

To attempt to run a reef aquarium without checking alkalinity and calcium levels periodically would be foolish.

[kendrid]

But 10% weekly changes may be a little much. I would do 20% per month and see if that works.

This is something I don't understand. How could 10% be "a little much"? Why is 10% considered by some to be "bad" when 5% is "good"? Isn't removing the old water and replacing it a good thing?

I've read some people say that they get better growth with doing water changes every other week instead of weekly. Why is that? Replacing the old water with new salt I would think would replenish the nutrients and make the coral happy.

Thanks for any explanation anyone can provide. I come from the discus world where 100% daily isn't unheard of. I do 50% weekly on my planted discus tank.

[Gary Majchrzak]

This is something I don't understand. How could 10% be "a little much"? Why is 10% considered by some to be "bad" when 5% is "good"? Isn't removing the old water and replacing it a good thing?

I've read some people say that they get better growth with doing water changes every other week instead of weekly. Why is that? Replacing the old water with new salt I would think would replenish the nutrients and make the coral happy.

Thanks for any explanation anyone can provide. I come from the discus world where 100% daily isn't unheard of. I do 50% weekly on my planted discus tank. In any closed marine system, (and especially in reef aquaria), larger water changes are better and (if performed properly) certainly aren't "bad" or "worse" for (most) corals than smaller water changes.
You'll get a lot of anecdotal observations because not all corals occur in the same marine environments. Some corals thrive in environments that will kill others. Acropora thrive in "clean" environments while many Corallimorphs prefer "dirtier" conditions.
In any case, it's my experience that you can have greater success with more corals if you maintain ideal water conditions.
Dosing / supplementing and water changes are simply a means to an end.

[nynick]

I suppose you're asking me, right?

No, I was asking OP.


Reg large or small water change, it should not have all that much of an impact given that your "new" water is similar to your "old". Smaller more frequent water changes are slightly less effective but it really is slightly for SW.

Many of us came in from FW where this idea that one big change is far more effective than many small is correct. 50% vs 25% x2 really does make a difference. 20% vs 10% x2 is roughly a 1% difference in export, not a huge deal.

Having said that 10% certainly isn't "a bit much", I have done 50% with no problems what so ever.