Marine Velvet or Ich? Blue tang, help wanted! Pics inside

[Sixstringmayhem]

Hey guys,

So i noticed a few white spots on my blue tang when i first got him home in the Display tank, (didnt quarantine him) so then decided to start a hypo-salinity treatment on the tang along with my two very small clowns ( the only other fish i have), in a 30 gal QT tank, i've been lowering the Salinity for the past week, the first 48 hours in not a single spot was to be found on any of them, but within the last day and a half the blue tang has completely broken out worse than ever. i feel so bad for him.
the clowns are showing no signs of anything

my specific gravity has just reached 1.009 today.

They are all eating, but the tang seems very uncomfortable.
This is my first time dealing with a saltwater parasite and im assuming its ich but someone said it could be velvet too?

just wanted a some second opinions, if it is velvet, hyposalinity will do nothing for it.

and if its ich, should i give him a quick freshwater dip?

Thank!

ps. sorry for yet another post on ich


http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l73/sixstringmayhem13/photo-11_zps9e0b2436.jpg

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l73/sixstringmayhem13/photo-12_zps374c84af.jpg

[cy93]

Hi Sixstringmayhem,

I believe this is lymph, I had a similar experience with my hippo after a month in quarantine undergoing hypo; unfortunately he didn't make it. Lets hope better for yours. Here is a link that i found before that might help:

http://www.reefsanctuary.com/forums/fish-diseases-treatments/69537-lymphocystis-info-cure.html

[roenicknewf]

I think that is a heavy infestation of ich ..
a FW dip will benefit him greatly ..
If it were velvet they would probably all be dead by now,its a fast killer..
I would keep in hypo ,and keep the DT empty for 8 weeks ..
Only thing i would be worried about is how long you took to lower the salinity(ich may adjust to it )..

[Reefnation.Jon]

Fresh water dips really do not do much for ich. How long has it been that bad? You could make up a batch of new salt water and start tank transfer method. All parasites will drop off with in a few days if he lives that long. You could use a 5 gallon bucket or a plastic sorage container o smaller than 5 gallons to start. Time is important at this stage.

[HumbleFish]

I can't tell if that's Ich or Velvet. But JHC, that's bad! Since you've already started hypo, I guess stay the course. But don't be surprised if that fish doesn't make it. Sorry...

[DrPat]

It looks like ick I would place the fish in hypo abruptly 5 points less, i.e. 1.025 to 1.020 in a qt and increase water temps to 84F at first and add copper power. Aerate the water well IF HIS RESPIRATION RATE IS NOT LABORED then the odds are likely to make it thru . If the parasiteS are on the gills its a poor prognosis but still a chance.

[Sixstringmayhem]

hey guys,

thanks for the responses,
the funny thing is, he's not really showing any signs of labored breathing or anything. he is swimming around the tank with the clowns as usual.

the spots have lessened a tiny bit this morning but he still has a lot.

im hoping its not that lymph disease either.

at this point, should i just continue with the hypo salinity, or bump up the salinity and temp a bit and use some copper?

also is it really possible the ich parasite could have adjusted over the week period i was lowing the salinity?

thanks

[wooden_reefer]

I would treat with copper at once.

If there is well cycled medium of filtration in QT, it can stay in QT for full duration.

Are there other fish in that DT? Possibly all are infested.

If you have not cycled enough of a medium well intended for QT, you should start now ASAP. If you have other fish in DT, calamity may well come soon.

[lagatbezan]

yeah that looks like a bad case of ich! like others said, if it was velvet, he would be dead by now. hypo needs to be done correctly for it to be effective. even a slight degree of variation in the SG could make it ineffective. Also you want to be sure you are using a refractometer which is calibrated correctly. At this point, I would either do the tank transfer method or treat with Cupramine and of course you need to treat all your fish.

[DrPat]

hey guys,

thanks for the responses,
the funny thing is, he's not really showing any signs of labored breathing or anything. he is swimming around the tank with the clowns as usual.

the spots have lessened a tiny bit this morning but he still has a lot.

im hoping its not that lymph disease either.

at this point, should i just continue with the hypo salinity, or bump up the salinity and temp a bit and use some copper?

also is it really possible the ich parasite could have adjusted over the week period i was lowing the salinity?

thanks
The reason you see less spots is because the those missing spots are now on the bottom of your tank morphing into the next stage.Soon they will release the free swimming stage that will actively seek out fish skin to embed into and repeat the cycle. you must act now . Everyone here has a different op-ion on what to do .If it where my fish I would transfer them to a qt raise the water temp and treat with a copper med. I use copper power at 86 degrees and hypo of 1015sg.I also aerate with airstones copperpower will not harm the biological filter. CHLOROQUINE is another drug if you have it in hand. This infestation is advancing rapidly.

[Sixstringmayhem]

alright guys im about to head to my lfs for some cupramine, i know they have that there.

I was under the impression at a specific gravity of 1.008-1.010 ich could not survive and would die out? hence the whole reason for hypo salinity.

since my salinity is at 1.009, shouldnt the ich die out?

Also im using a refractometer calibrated with pin point solution, so im right on the dot at 1.009

the other two clown fish in the qt are showing no signs at all

[Sixstringmayhem]

also i just read that you cannot use any ammonia/nitrate reducers with cupramine, I've been using seachem prime with every water change...

[wooden_reefer]

also i just read that you cannot use any ammonia/nitrate reducers with cupramine, I've been using seachem prime with every water change...

Yes, and this is another strong reason why you should start a cycle using the fishless method starting ASAP. I'd use a compact form of medium, such as crushed coral in well-stretched out nylon sacks, not rock of any kind.

Having well-cycled medium to support all fish allows one to combat ich outbreak in DT more feasibly.

[roenicknewf]

IDK,personally I would just keep them in hypo,even drop it to .007

[2JZGTE]

also i just read that you cannot use any ammonia/nitrate reducers with cupramine, I've been using seachem prime with every water change...

Yup I learned the hard way before...if you don't have a cycled QT ready now, I'd be doing the tank transfer method since you'll end up with having to change water frequently to reduce ammonia.

[snake42490]

After getting so many fish I find it fascinating how some fish can be absolutely infested with parasites yet they eat great while others are on their death bed. It makes me wonder how healthy some of the ones that come in and don't eat actually are. I think a healthy fish can survive a infestation much easier. Obviously in a closed system it will spread to the point where the fish will be infected..


Iv'e had great luck with hypo, I know a lot of people don't like it. Yes it does get rid of ich, yes some strains have shown some resistance to lower salinity, but every study that I have read indicated that this form of ich isn't around where most our fish is collected. It's mostly in the cold water. I also read that a lot of problems people have is when they get ich they have two strains that manifest into a hybrid. This is what causes issues in tanks a lot of times. This is never an issue in the wild because the cross contamination doesn't occur.

I think most error in hypo is when people start raising the salinity back up from where it was. I believe that some of the cysts are still protected and when the salinity returns they hatch and reinvest. If you transfer your fish to a new container before raising the salinity this should help. If I get a healthy fish in that I am positive just has ich I will do the tank transfer method and hypo salinity at the same time. You save a TON of salt and are just reinforcing getting rid of the parasite. I do my hypo at 1.007 with filter media from my Display tank that I keep on hand. I know copper is great and it serves it's purpose, but I feel like I use these other areas more than copper.

Oh and you definitely don't want ammonia build up with copper.. That is like a double knock out to the poor fish lol!


Another thing with hypo, if you would happen to have velvet. Hypo can buy you a few extra days in need of doing another treatment. No it won't cure it, but it can limit it's way of reproducing... I'm done ranting.

[Sixstringmayhem]

hey snake
thanks for the info,

i went ahead and decided to leave them all in hypo since i used seachem prime on the whole qt tank and you cant mix it with any copper, lowered the salnity down to 1.007. woke up this morning all the fish are swimming around happily, and the tang was munching on his seaweed clip.

the tang has fewer spots than before so im assuming its working.

i just have a question.
what is the tank transfer method?


Is it basically an entirely new tank, setup with the same salinity, ph, temp all that stuff, then you put the fish into that tank?

[HumbleFish]

i just have a question.
what is the tank transfer method?

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1996525

[Sixstringmayhem]

thanks for the link!

would this work if i just transfered the water and fish from the 30 gal qt to a 10 temporarily, and then fully clean the 30 gal, make up a whole new batch of hyposalinity water, get all the parameters to match up, and then transfer the fish back to the 30? so they'll basically be in completely new water.

the only thing that sucks is i wont be able to used my sponge in the hob filter that i had seeded in my dt for about 3 weeks prior to starting hyposalinity

[roenicknewf]

Good to hear .Hope they keep on the road to recovery .

[HumbleFish]

would this work if i just transfered the water and fish from the 30 gal qt to a 10 temporarily, and then fully clean the 30 gal, make up a whole new batch of hyposalinity water, get all the parameters to match up, and then transfer the fish back to the 30? so they'll basically be in completely new water.

That would work, but in order for TT to be successful (in your case) you'd need to do a total of 5 transfers. Day 1 (for you) would begin the day you put all your fish in that 10 gal. You would then need to transfer them to a new tank on the mornings of Day 4, Day 7, Day 10 and finally Day 13 (done).

It is imperative that the tank and all equipment be thoroughly sanitized in-between transfers. I clean everything in a 10:1 f/w:vinegar solution immediately, and then let it all air dry until the morning I need it. Also, you'll need to keep a close eye on ammonia (but you can use ammonia reducers with TT), and TT is only useful to eradicate Ich - not Velvet. I've never done TT in hypo conditions, but I don't see any reason why you can't.

[Sixstringmayhem]

i think i might give this a shot, thanks humblefish

[snake42490]

Yup no problem! Humblefish is spot on with cleaning the crap out of stuff. And make sure that you don't cross contaminate water... Yeah it's very unlikely that a parasite will hitch along, BUT it could happen. By doing those two methods, you are increasing your odds of successfully beating it. Plus it saves money on salt haha. Just be sure that you bring the salinity up slowly! No more than .03 per day. Sudden change in osmotic pressure can dehydrate and deplete the water of O2. They will adjust fine though over time!

I wouldn't be worried about a 10 gallon tank :), that is usually the biggest sized QT I ever use haha. A lot of the time when I am doing TTM I just use 5 gallon buckets and throw a filter on the side of it. I save my 10 gallon tank for the last transfer so I can see how the fish looks!


Let your equipment dry!!! 24 hours is recommended, but I am sure most everything is killed within a couple hours of being dried out. Tear apart your filters, Those magnets in hob filters keep water down there that has always scared me to death.

Another trick I do is put a space heater in front of the equipment and cover up a little area with that inside. It easily gets over 100 degrees and dries stuff out very fast! I know a lot of parasites die in extreme heat!

[Sixstringmayhem]

That is a good idea snake,

Im currently cleaning out a 10 gal tank i had setup with freshwater about a year ago i never rinsed it out so i gave it a good rinse and its sitting with a powerhead and a capful of bleach.

going to rinse it out tomorrow and let air dry for a day then do the tank transfer method.

Im thinking about setting up my QT in my bathroom instead of my room this time since water changes will be 10x easier and less trafficking to keep the fish's stress down.

ill prob use my gf's hair dryer to nuke the filter haha

[acasp4]

Hey guys,

So i noticed a few white spots on my blue tang when i first got him home in the Display tank, (didnt quarantine him) so then decided to start a hypo-salinity treatment on the tang along with my two very small clowns ( the only other fish i have), in a 30 gal QT tank, i've been lowering the Salinity for the past week, the first 48 hours in not a single spot was to be found on any of them, but within the last day and a half the blue tang has completely broken out worse than ever. i feel so bad for him.
the clowns are showing no signs of anything

my specific gravity has just reached 1.009 today.

They are all eating, but the tang seems very uncomfortable.
This is my first time dealing with a saltwater parasite and im assuming its ich but someone said it could be velvet too?

just wanted a some second opinions, if it is velvet, hyposalinity will do nothing for it.

and if its ich, should i give him a quick freshwater dip?

Thank!

ps. sorry for yet another post on ich


http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l73/sixstringmayhem13/photo-11_zps9e0b2436.jpg

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l73/sixstringmayhem13/photo-12_zps374c84af.jpg



Afew white spots...... holy crap he covered. Ich attack works best I think 100% organic you'll notice a 180 difference in a day or two

[Sixstringmayhem]

hey guys thanks for all the help,

he's almost completely spot free today, just a few left.

my question is, can the ich parasite survive hyposalinity at 1.008?

in other words, should i still go ahead with the tank transfer?

[Sixstringmayhem]

well i went ahead with the tank transfer, into another tank of 1.008 water.

tang still had a few spots im hoping they come off in the transfer tank.

he's also very stressed out from the move, lost a lot of his color

[sleepydoc]

Well, the guy's had a bit of stress lately...

[Reefnation.Jon]

The ich parasite can live on the fish for up to 7 days. It is recommended to do tank tranfer for no less than 8 days with two day transfers or 12 days with 3 day transfers. If you use new water, and sterilized ( dried, bleached ) equipment for every transfer this is an almost 100% successful method to eliminate ich from the fish.

Your tank will still need to be falllow for 8-12 weeks.