Fishless cycling - wrong ammonia? Should I worry??

[tgunn]

So I started the bacteria cycle for a bunch of DIY liverock I made. Its in a 34g tank, and has saltwater running with it. I've been dosing some ammonia (4mL at a time; about 4 times for a total of 16mL) over the past week to start the cycle. I'm reading high nitrites and some nitrates, so clearly the cycle IS going.

However, I noticed something interesting about the ammonia I'm using:
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-kHUhdO-EimE/UXXz-fxghSI/AAAAAAAAJY0/rM757p_rXd4/s461/Web+Albums+App+Upload+-+2013-04-22+9%3A37%3A30+PM
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-ti5QCBCAgG8/UXXz3QiOThI/AAAAAAAAJYs/bmZmVzgDoNI/s461/Web+Albums+App+Upload+-+2013-04-22+9%3A37%3A10+PM

I had read online recently that if you shake the ammonia it should not foam. So I tried that, and here's what I see:
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-iPFQY2-Y5ak/UXX0NNAFDJI/AAAAAAAAJY8/AjnpX5fgNg8/s461/Web+Albums+App+Upload+-+2013-04-22+9%3A38%3A33+PM

BAH! So it appears I have the WRONG ammonia because it foams up. The foam doesn't just disappear quickly either, it hangs around for a while before dissipating.

Should I be concerned with this? As I mentioned, the cycle has definitely begun, so clearly its not horribly toxic. I've used this same ammonia to cycle a 10g nano at work and nothing seems horribly awry there.

Opinions?

I'm running carbon now and will discontinue using this ammonia just in case. Think everything will be fine?

<sigh> Next time I just throw a cocktail shrimp in.

[phxreefer]

I did the same thing in october. After the replies i got from the same question i drained the tank, rinsed everything over and over and restarted the tank. The responses will range from throw everything away because it is contaminated to do nothing. I opted to be on the safe side since i planned for this to be an SPS tank. I did however keep the rock and not replace it like some suggested. I have had no isseus with the tank after that. I would do a very large water change and let the skimmer and GAC remove the rest.

[tgunn]

Thanks for the input. It's good to know I'm not the only one. Realistically a tiny bit of soap/detergent will likely not harm anything. I'm sure we put soap in the tank from our bodies or not rinsing our hands well enough.

I did a water change and will so a few more. The tank where the rocks will go is a different one so I will use all new water in that one.

I'm sure it'll all be good.

[bnumair]

i would change water few times and run carbon just to be safe.

[bertoni]

If the ingredients are accurate, the tank should be fine. On the other hand, I don't know whether ammonia should foam or not. Is the skimmer behaving properly? If so, I probably wouldn't worry all that much. Detergents will make the skimmer go wild.

Some water changes might be a good idea, though, just for peace of mind, if nothing else.

[tgunn]

i would change water few times and run carbon just to be safe.

Carbon is running and I've done a water change already. I'll do another big one tomorrow. Thanks!

[tgunn]

If the ingredients are accurate, the tank should be fine. On the other hand, I don't know whether ammonia should foam or not. Is the skimmer behaving properly? If so, I probably wouldn't worry all that much. Detergents will make the skimmer go wild.

Some water changes might be a good idea, though, just for peace of mind, if nothing else.

I've read that the scented version of this same brand specifies explicitly that it has surfficants in the ingredients list.

I am not skimming at the moment -- just running an airstone. No sign of over foaming.

I'll put my mini skimmer in there and see what happens though.


Thanks!

[tgunn]

http://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-XDUD3odsDo8/UXZo5TURgTI/AAAAAAAAJZI/eHU4VYzqhx8/s1024/Web%20Albums%20App%20Upload%20-%202013-04-23%205:56:23%20AM

The skimmer is producing a nice foam head, but certainly not like I'd expect it to if I had dumped in detergent.

I think water changes and carbon will be enough. Thanks all!

[bertoni]

I suspect the tank is fine. I might do a couple extra water changes, just for peace of mind.

[tmz]

Don't see why ammonium and hydroxide would harm a cycling tank. The hydroxide might bump up pH some but the NH4 might offset that. Depends on what impurities may be in the product . GAC is a prudent step.

[tgunn]

Don't see why ammonium and hydroxide would harm a cycling tank. The hydroxide might bump up pH some but the NH4 might offset that. Depends on what impurities may be in the product . GAC is a prudent step.

The Hydroxide component definitely caused a short pH spike when I dosed it, until it all mixed in well.

I imagine there must be something in there that isn't supposed to be there given it foams up in the bottle. All references I've seen indicate it shouldn't foam.

I suspect the tank is fine. I might do a couple extra water changes, just for peace of mind.

It seems to be fine so far. Still cycling as I would expect. The skimmer has pulled out a bit of brown, but no signs of overflowing at all.

I think everything is fine, so I'll just leave it be for now. Thanks for the input all!

[tmz]

Good luck, and youare welcome.

[blanden.adam]

Don't see why ammonium and hydroxide would harm a cycling tank. The hydroxide might bump up pH some but the NH4 might offset that. Depends on what impurities may be in the product . GAC is a prudent step.

Ammonium hydroxide is what forms when you add straight ammonia to water -- ammonia is a lewis base and will deprotonate water (pKa 9.3). Even the ammonia your fish produce does this :). The alternative is to dose ammonia as a dissolved acid salt (e.g. ammonium chloride, the HCl salt of ammonia), but the net result is the same in the end, and ammonium chloride is more difficult to get outside of a direct chemical supplier or a fish retailer -- it's kind of a niche market.

The issue with this thread is whether or not surfactants were added, long chain detergents commonly added to ammonia based cleaning products. It's increasingly difficult to find ammonia without surfactants, which is problematic for cycling a tank -- who wants soap in their tank afterall? The only place I know of commercially is ACE hardware 10% ammonium hydroxide, janitorial strength. Works like a dream :)

[brandon429]

I was wondering this. if surfactants reduce the surface tension of water, wouldnt it be less likely to foam up like that if they were included>?

[blanden.adam]

So, the answer to that is a touch complicated. Surfactants do indeed decrease the surface tension of water in bulk. But lets examine what happens at the surface of a bubble.

As the liquid "stretches" to form the bubble, it expands until any 1 part of the bubble stretches beyond the limit of the surface tension of the fluid to hold together, and the bubble pops. Now, in the presence of a surfactant, as was said before, the surface tension of the liquid is lower. But, on the surface of a bubble, you have parts that are "stretching" at slightly different rates. The thinnest parts, which are the weakest and would typically pop first, have the LOWEST surface concentration of surfactant, which increases their surface tension relative to the surrounding area. As such, the effect of the surfactant is to stabilize the weakest points of the bubble. This makes the overall bubble much more stable. This is easily observable in a bubble bath :) ahhh, the joys of a childhood bubble bath.

[brandon429]

nice call. was wondering why soap, a surfactant did opposite of what it seemed to do lol

[cap032]

Be careful with amt of ammonia you dose. You only want to dose enough to bring the ammonia level up to somewhere between 2-4ppm. You dont want to dose again until both ammonia and nitrite levels are less than .5ppm. Dosing too much too often can drive up the nitrite level and possibly stall the cycle if nitrite levels get much over 5ppm. If your nitrite is already higher than that, test everyday to make sure the level is dropping and that the cycle hasnt stalled. If it does stall, a water change will kick start it again.

[tgunn]

So, the answer to that is a touch complicated. Surfactants do indeed decrease the surface tension of water in bulk. But lets examine what happens at the surface of a bubble.


Now that's a very interesting explanation of whats going on there. Thanks for that!

There's no Ace Hardware locations near me, but I'll be in Minneapolis in a few weeks and there are some Ace locations there. I'll make sure to pick up a bottle of Ace Janitorial Ammonia then so I have some for future cycling endeavours!

[tgunn]

Be careful with amt of ammonia you dose. You only want to dose enough to bring the ammonia level up to somewhere between 2-4ppm. You dont want to dose again until both ammonia and nitrite levels are less than .5ppm. Dosing too much too often can drive up the nitrite level and possibly stall the cycle if nitrite levels get much over 5ppm. If your nitrite is already higher than that, test everyday to make sure the level is dropping and that the cycle hasnt stalled. If it does stall, a water change will kick start it again.

Ooops, okay, so I probably dosed a bit much. I'll check in on the parameters tomorrow. It seemed the cycle was in full swing, but I could have stalled it. I'm sure my recent water change probably helped with that though too. :)

I'll have to resort to some fish food to keep the tank cycled as I don't have the right ammonia to keep things going.

[tmz]

Very nice explanation on surfacants ,surface tension and bubbles. Thanks Adam.

[tgunn]

Oh dear. 0 ammonia but nitrites and nitrates are off the chart. Guess I overdid it. Haha.

[bertoni]

It should be fine. I wouldn't worry.