OK so what would you do?

[Bilk]

Tank parameters first:

42-46 net gallons running ATS and top-off with non-saturated kalkwasser (1tbs/g).

Temp=79
Salinity=35
ph=8.35
Alk=7.5dkh
Ca=425
NO3=1
po4=0

Tests performed with RSP and Hanna colorimeters to duplicate results. I dose 2 drops of Zeobak twice a week and .5ml of Zeostart each morning. No other dosing and I even took the 2 part off line for now as the parameters are stable with just the kalkwasser in the top off. Running BRS Rox and PO4x4 in the same small reactor.

OK my build thread is here (http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2260802) which gives a bit more info on the build. Right now I'm back to running the A350 - blue spectrum about 70% and white about 50% with the fixture mounted 10" above the water line. Had a Mitras over the tank for a few days running 14k @ 60%, ramping up and down. Light cycle is 10hrs/day with either fixture. Obviously the Kessil doesn't have the ability to ramp intensity. Two MP10s for water movement operating off of an Apex controller.

Now to my issue - brown corals. What steps would you take in order to get moving in the right direction? I know that po4 may not be zero, but it would be measurable if it were an issue. There is no algae growth in the display and only a slight haze on the glass after two to three days. As a matter of fact I don't think I've cleaned the glass in about five days and there's really no growth on the rocks. The ATS is working well, but not massive growth there either. The fish load is two small percula, one chromis and a small to medium kole tang. I feed two to three times a day - dried brine and flake.

How do I start to get color back in the corals? Never had this issue before on other tanks. Is it the lighting? Is the water too clean of organics? Do I need to dose another carbon source? What should be the first step so I can go through a process of elimination?

I went back to the Kessil because I was having issues with the GHL program and didn't want to mess with it any more until I get a better handle on what's happening in the tank.

Any and all help/suggestions are appreciated.

[Allmost]

you are doing way too many things at once Bilk ... KISS method is the best, keep it simple :)

ATS + zeovit + po4 remover ... it would be hard to make this stable !

if your ATS is growing algae, then you have nutritions in your system which ATS is removing.

I would personally rethink the design, and go on one route, which ever that may be :)

[Bilk]

you are doing way too many things at once Bilk ... KISS method is the best, keep it simple :)

ATS + zeovit + po4 remover ... it would be hard to make this stable !

if your ATS is growing algae, then you have nutritions in your system which ATS is removing.

I would personally rethink the design, and go on one route, which ever that may be :)
I appreciate your comments and please don't take it the wrong way, but isn't the intent to limit nutrient build-up in the system? The system is stable in the idea there are very little measurable nutrients. And yes, the ATS is growing algae, but at a lower rate than it was just a few weeks back. Feeding, microfauna die-off and release of nutrients from detritus, release nutrients in all systems.

I am not really utilizing the full Zeovit system. The Zeobak is a bacterial source to diversify the bacterial population in the water column and the Zeostart is a carbon source to feed the bacteria.

So which would you first take off line first and why do you see any of these as contributing to the browning? Not looking to start an argument in my own thread so I hope it's not taken as such :) Just looking to understand why what can be considered "clean water" should be an issue.

[Allmost]

see, you are dosing bacteria and carbon source for them to grow ... so they take up N and P.

your Algae fuge or ATS is competing with the bacteria for the available nutritions. so as algae grows, bacteria die back, at night, algae dies and gives off N and P, at which time bacteria will grow more, and again run outta nutritins by morning, so they are in competition with one another, which would be hard to stabilize.

do not look at test results, they dont mean much, look at your corals :)

I dont know which one is better for you, but I do know that you should take one route, and stick to it and make it work, that would be much simpler to manage :)

of course, just my opinion.

[peequin]

I agree with the above post. Get rid of the ATS if you are using zeovit.

I've been using the Red Sea Coral Reef Care Program (kinda like zeovit, but easier) to enhance my colors and I think it is working great. You should look into this....

http://www.redseafish.com/index.aspx?id=4337

[Bilk]

see, you are dosing bacteria and carbon source for them to grow ... so they take up N and P.

your Algae fuge or ATS is competing with the bacteria for the available nutritions. so as algae grows, bacteria die back, at night, algae dies and gives off N and P, at which time bacteria will grow more, and again run outta nutritins by morning, so they are in competition with one another, which would be hard to stabilize.

do not look at test results, they dont mean much, look at your corals :)

I dont know which one is better for you, but I do know that you should take one route, and stick to it and make it work, that would be much simpler to manage :)

of course, just my opinion.Don't many people do similarly by running biopellets, a refugium and carbon dosing?

What means do you employ for nutrient control?

Edit: Just noticed your Sig that states Zeovit. Do you use the full system? I also noticed a phosphate reactor from another thread of yours.

I ran the full Zeo system, but wasn't happy with dealing with the zeolites and the reactor churning.

[Allmost]

I have many tanks, but my sps tank is full zeovit.

Most systems of nutrition control are great at removing no3, but not as much effective when it comes to po4. So I see the point of using pellets, carbon dosing like vodka or vinegar, or even fuge with po4 remover. I used to run all my tanks with fugue and po4 remover before carbon dosing. Trace amounts of po4 are left With above methods which po4remover will take care of. But I personally don't get the point of running 2 different methods together, unless dealing with super heavy bioload like ido in my azoox reef which gets food every hour and trace elements added around the clock... There's nothing limiting in that system. Not the case with most sps tanks ... IMHO they start competing for what's available and it would be harder to reach a balance ...

With all this said, the system seems very young currently, so could be a lot of other reasons as well. When were the corals added ? Were they brown when added to this tank ? And so on ... Lighting I can't comment, haven't used those LEDs before.

HTH,

[Bilk]

I have many tanks, but my sps tank is full zeovit.

Most systems of nutrition control are great at removing no3, but not as much effective when it comes to po4. So I see the point of using pellets, carbon dosing like vodka or vinegar, or even fuge with po4 remover. I used to run all my tanks with fugue and po4 remover before carbon dosing. Trace amounts of po4 are left With above methods which po4remover will take care of. But I personally don't get the point of running 2 different methods together, unless dealing with super heavy bioload like ido in my azoox reef which gets food every hour and trace elements added around the clock... There's nothing limiting in that system. Not the case with most sps tanks ... IMHO they start competing for what's available and it would be harder to reach a balance ...

With all this said, the system seems very young currently, so could be a lot of other reasons as well. When were the corals added ? Were they brown when added to this tank ? And so on ... Lighting I can't comment, haven't used those LEDs before.

HTH,

Yes the corals were already browned when I received them. I guess shipping isn't kind to the corals. Then dipping and acclimating exacerbates the issue - at least from what I've experienced recently. I turned down the lighting further and will see how that goes. I think the excessive zooxanthellae may also be from the lighting being too intense.

This is the first time I've run an ATS. One thing I have noticed is ph remains very stable since it's running in an opposite lighting cycle from the tank. The swings are minimal, remaining now at 8.3 and no lower than 8.25. Alk is stable as well.

Yes the system is young, but since the substrate is an inch or less, I don't see how age will make anything much different. Other tanks I ran, either had just a DSB or a Jeubert system employed. With those systems I can see how more time is needed for them to develop.

One thing you did state which seems to not be a negative is, the bacteria will work during the day and the scrubber's algae during the tank's dark hours, both working to limit po4 during a cycle of the day. That was the intent when I went this route. The algae doesn't die back when the lighting on the ATS is off.

Well in either case, I don't see the methods of nutrient removal as being the cause of brown corals. It's my belief it's either finding the right spectrum and amount of light and possibly an alkalinity level that works, is the course of action at this point. I believe that corals from Live Aquaria are kept in tanks where the alkalinity is 10dkh. Their salinity is spot on at 35ppt. I guess just the corals acclimating to a lower alkalinity could brown them as well. Time will tell of course :)

Well thanks for the input. I'll keep you posted :)

Oh I forgot to ask - you mentioned "a balance". What did you mean by that? What needs to be in balance?

[Allmost]

Bilk, lol I tried to help you, its sad that you see my comments as negative :) after all, if you knew how to do it, you wouldnt be here asking ;)

1. you are wrong about too much light browning corals.
2. you are wrong about sand bed being shallow = tank will mature fastr, has nothing to do.
3. algae with no light, will die off. do you count the number of algae cells every night and morning to make such claims ?

balance .... you have a long way to learn... and you wont with this attitude. what happened to your old tank started 1 year ago with Zeovit ? how did that turn out ... why the rebuilt ? sorry, I had to bite ;)


I

[SPotter]

Bilk, I read your build thread and from what I can tell the corals have only been in the tank since the beginning of April correct? It also sounds like you ordered them from LiveAquaria and they look like Divers Den pieces. If so, are they from the maricultured section?

I am going to agree with the above statements from Allmost. I have never used zeovit but have run ATS on my system for two years now and IMO ATS is just another form of running a low nutrient system. Not sure how much you are feeding but based on the number of fish you have you probably arent feeding enough and the ATS is pulling everything it can out of the system. I put an ATS on my new system when I started it up last year this time and ended up taking it down because I felt my water was too clean and my bioload wasnt that high. I would pick one of the export systems you are using and remove the others. If your corals are from the maricultured section, give them some time to adjust to your water and they will recover. I have bought maricultured corals from dd and had the same things happen.

Also, you didnt list your mg level? what is that?

[Bilk]

Bilk, lol I tried to help you, its sad that you see my comments as negative :) after all, if you knew how to do it, you wouldnt be here asking ;)

1. you are wrong about too much light browning corals.
2. you are wrong about sand bed being shallow = tank will mature fastr, has nothing to do.
3. algae with no light, will die off. do you count the number of algae cells every night and morning to make such claims ?

balance .... you have a long way to learn... and you wont with this attitude. what happened to your old tank started 1 year ago with Zeovit ? how did that turn out ... why the rebuilt ? sorry, I had to bite ;)


IMy friend, I have maintained successful tanks in the past and left the hobby for a while. The first start of this tank came at an unfortunate time as I had a sick father and a project I took on that required my time six days a week. The tank suffered because of those circumstances.

Algae do not die when the lighting cycle changes. They need a time for respiratory change. They should not remain in a lighted cycle 24/7 just as the algae in corals need a rest from a photo period. Do the zooxanthealla in your corals die off each night when the lights go out?

It's funny you question my seeking information when the majority of your threads are just that, asking what you don't know or understand.

As for corals browning when receiving too much light, that is one school of thought. It may be the reason why the same species of coral we keep colorfully in captive marine aquaria are brown under the intense light of the sun on a reef and many times because of natural lighting conditions, do not exhibit the same coloration as they do in captivity. I didn't claim that a shallow sand bed tank matures faster and there's no scientific proof of "maturity" of a system being measurable. If so point me to tat literature. It's anecdotal at best.

I think you may have a lot to learn my friend, so keep asking questions as I've seen you post in other threads. Please reference your silly thread on silica sand. LOL I've read some of your other posts and you have a very bad attitude. So maybe you should post to other threads and stay out of mine. Thanks for your understanding.

[Allmost]

corals with too much light will bleach.

funny how you have BROWN corals, and you are feeding Coral vitelizer and dosing amino acids ? LOL ! you should stop those.

I dont expect you to understand what balance and mature reef tanks mean, u have never seen one.

" Please reference your silly thread on silica sand. LOL"

my thread about sand, which went over your head [ I dont expect you to know more] is about a sponge and Azoox reef tank I have ... every heard of that term ? look it up :)

sponges use silica, besides waterglass, we dont have much other sources of silica, so now I boil silical pellets that come in bags and shoes :) again, these thngs go over your head, so dont try to step into my level :)

I tried to help, you didnt deserve it as it seems.

now to laugh a bit :

"Algae do not die when the lighting cycle changes. They need a time for respiratory change. They should not remain in a lighted cycle 24/7 just as the
algae in corals need a rest from a photo period. Do the zooxanthealla in your corals die off each night when the lights go out?"


Wrong. when lights off, algae starts to die off, and gives off No3 and po4 :) this is a scientific fact that ppl in hobby know of. yes, even dino algae, diatom and even zoox within corals do as well. ever seen dino ? it starts brown at the beginning of lights coming on ... later it develops bubbles inside even, and when lights off, it dies back and disappears, only to apear again the day after :)


"As for corals browning when receiving too much light, that is one school of thought."

which school is that ?

"It may be the reason why the same species of coral we keep colorfully in captive marine aquaria are brown under the intense light of the sun on a reef and many times because of natural lighting conditions, do not exhibit the same coloration as they do in captivity. "


wrong :) corals come from the ocean, we try REALLY hard to make them look like they do in oceans :) ever gone diving ? or have you only seen pics with bad white balance ? ;)


"I didn't claim that a shallow sand bed tank matures faster and there's no scientific proof of "maturity" of a system being measurable. If so point me to tat literature. It's anecdotal at best. "

"Yes the system is young, but since the substrate is an inch or less, I don't see how age will make anything much different."



I really have no Idea why ppl like you like to argue so much. I posted my OPINION... if you dont agree or dont like it, ignore it and move on and take others opinions LOL do you feel inferior to me that you have to argue ? me trying to help you by critizing your plan is to provide help, not to put you down, you are very new to this [I know you from Zeovit site ... when you used to PM me daily asking for help] so please ... have some respect. you dont agree with me ? fine, move on .... lol right now u have brown corals and I dont, so .... lol

yes the reason why I am here, is to learn more. it was my mistake to try to help you. you seem to have all the answers LOL on how to keep brown corals.

[Bilk]

Bilk, I read your build thread and from what I can tell the corals have only been in the tank since the beginning of April correct? It also sounds like you ordered them from LiveAquaria and they look like Divers Den pieces. If so, are they from the maricultured section?

I am going to agree with the above statements from Allmost. I have never used zeovit but have run ATS on my system for two years now and IMO ATS is just another form of running a low nutrient system. Not sure how much you are feeding but based on the number of fish you have you probably arent feeding enough and the ATS is pulling everything it can out of the system. I put an ATS on my new system when I started it up last year this time and ended up taking it down because I felt my water was too clean and my bioload wasnt that high. I would pick one of the export systems you are using and remove the others. If your corals are from the maricultured section, give them some time to adjust to your water and they will recover. I have bought maricultured corals from dd and had the same things happen.

Also, you didnt list your mg level? what is that?

Hi and thx for the post. Yes they are DD pieces and mostly maricultured. I also do understand they'll need time to acclimate as you suggest. The Mg level is 1500. It's the reading I get from a fresh mix of ESV salt.

I've done a lot of reading on magnesium levels and I haven't come across anything that suggests Mg levels effect coral coloration. The only reference to importance I get for Mg in seawater for aquaria use is from Randy's article claiming it helps stabilize alkalinity at higher levels.

I'm thinking that the lower alkalinity and the lighting are the issues and the corals will need time to adapt. I guess only time will either prove that out or not :) As for the multi-prong approach to nutrient export, as of yet, I don't see a problem with it. Most everyone employs multiple methods for that. Prior to this tank, I used a Jeubert system successfully in a single tank, for over 10 years. That was a fully stocked 110g.

[SPotter]

I think the lower alk levels are fine especially if you are running low nutrients and when you look at NSW alk levels its more appropriate for the maricultured pieces you bought. I also agree that there's nothing wrong with running a multi prong export system but what I am suggesting is that you wait until the tank is more established before adding all of the prongs. I'm not a fan of the ulns set ups as I feel they are always on the brink of a crash. I target .02-.03ppm po4 and 2-5ppm no3 in my tanks now and my corals have responded very nicely too it.

[Bilk]

I think the lower alk levels are fine especially if you are running low nutrients and when you look at NSW alk levels its more appropriate for the maricultured pieces you bought. I also agree that there's nothing wrong with running a multi prong export system but what I am suggesting is that you wait until the tank is more established before adding all of the prongs. I'm not a fan of the ulns set ups as I feel they are always on the brink of a crash. I target .02-.03ppm po4 and 2-5ppm no3 in my tanks now and my corals have responded very nicely too it.yeah I've been reading the pros and cons of UNLS vs some nutrients in the water column. I guess I'll have to adjust as I go and see what works best for the setup and inhabitants. I consulted with the guys on the ATS forum and they suggested use it from the start. I'm using a reduced amount of carbon and phos media just to keep it in check. The parameters are stable and that's what I was looking for. Now I can work from there to see how things respond.

I think the question in my mind was about the lighting and getting it dialed in. Never used a lighting system that was user adjustable. I always had MH and or T5 and the selection was limited to bulb combinations. Both the Kessil and Mitras are adjustable and I guess I was making more out of finding the "correct" lighting temp and intensity, than was warranted at this point in time. I'll keep using the A350 and see how things develop. :)

[Bilk]

corals with too much light will bleach.

funny how you have BROWN corals, and you are feeding Coral vitelizer and dosing amino acids ? LOL ! you should stop those.

I dont expect you to understand what balance and mature reef tanks mean, u have never seen one.

" Please reference your silly thread on silica sand. LOL"

my thread about sand, which went over your head [ I dont expect you to know more] is about a sponge and Azoox reef tank I have ... every heard of that term ? look it up :)

sponges use silica, besides waterglass, we dont have much other sources of silica, so now I boil silical pellets that come in bags and shoes :) again, these thngs go over your head, so dont try to step into my level :)

I tried to help, you didnt deserve it as it seems.

now to laugh a bit :

"Algae do not die when the lighting cycle changes. They need a time for respiratory change. They should not remain in a lighted cycle 24/7 just as the
algae in corals need a rest from a photo period. Do the zooxanthealla in your corals die off each night when the lights go out?"


Wrong. when lights off, algae starts to die off, and gives off No3 and po4 :) this is a scientific fact that ppl in hobby know of. yes, even dino algae, diatom and even zoox within corals do as well. ever seen dino ? it starts brown at the beginning of lights coming on ... later it develops bubbles inside even, and when lights off, it dies back and disappears, only to apear again the day after :)


"As for corals browning when receiving too much light, that is one school of thought."

which school is that ?

"It may be the reason why the same species of coral we keep colorfully in captive marine aquaria are brown under the intense light of the sun on a reef and many times because of natural lighting conditions, do not exhibit the same coloration as they do in captivity. "


wrong :) corals come from the ocean, we try REALLY hard to make them look like they do in oceans :) ever gone diving ? or have you only seen pics with bad white balance ? ;)


"I didn't claim that a shallow sand bed tank matures faster and there's no scientific proof of "maturity" of a system being measurable. If so point me to tat literature. It's anecdotal at best. "

"Yes the system is young, but since the substrate is an inch or less, I don't see how age will make anything much different."



I really have no Idea why ppl like you like to argue so much. I posted my OPINION... if you dont agree or dont like it, ignore it and move on and take others opinions LOL do you feel inferior to me that you have to argue ? me trying to help you by critizing your plan is to provide help, not to put you down, you are very new to this [I know you from Zeovit site ... when you used to PM me daily asking for help] so please ... have some respect. you dont agree with me ? fine, move on .... lol right now u have brown corals and I dont, so .... lol

yes the reason why I am here, is to learn more. it was my mistake to try to help you. you seem to have all the answers LOL on how to keep brown corals.
You have issues my friend. You should talk to someone about them.

[jda]

What would I do? Since you asked, I would stop everything, let stuff be and in about a month, start doing 10-20% weekly water changes. In a 46G tank, just change water and stop all of the dosing. The water changes will be cheaper and likely more effective. A 5 gallon bucket of new water every week is not all that hard.

Also, stop with the colonies and go with frags. Colonies are hard and rarely do well.

[Allmost]

You have issues my friend. You should talk to someone about them.

maybe Ill find someone in the school that thinks too much light makes SPS brown lol

I see this often though, I set up, or help set up reef tanks for newbs like yourself, and after a while their Ego grows too large, and causes Issues like above. I apologize for helping you through the years to let this happen :) you are welcome to continue thinking too much light makes corals brown. and that corals in the oceans are brown lol