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rldcpa
04/27/2013, 01:21 PM
So I have read the articles that say carbon causes HLLE and today as a test I discontinued using carbon as I do believe that the carbon has something to do with the disease on tangs.

So, as one of my young tanks has mild HLLE I want to nip it in the bud.

The question I have, while the test is running over the next few months, what is a substitute for carbon?

Basically do I need to run carbon occasionally or is their a substitute?

What bad effect are possible if I totally stop using granulated carbon in my reactor?

daido
04/27/2013, 01:54 PM
Using carbon is extremly important. I strongly recommand using it, even if it may have some negative effects. Carbon can be partialy replaced with polyplastics based filter medias or with products like zeolife.

SaltwaterSensei
04/27/2013, 02:18 PM
It could be diet related. Whats your feeding regime?

ReefPharmer
04/27/2013, 03:04 PM
using carbon is not "extremely" important and there are many tanks without it.
Carbon usage has been linked to HLLE in tangs and I have experienced it myself. My achilles had it within a week of starting carbon use. I took the carbon offline.

Just for anyone who wants to ask, the tangs eat nori, flake, formula 1 and 2 pellets, mysis and other frozen foods. I wouldnt call them malnourished.

nodak
04/27/2013, 05:30 PM
I currently am running 4 tanks with tangs an GAC. Only 1 tank has a tang with HLLE. All 4 tanks have been up an running with the same tangs for 7 years. It doesn't make much sense to me same diet pretty close to same tank conditions. Maybe stray current or different species are more likely to show signs of HLLE. The tang with HLLE is a Desjardins sailfin.

rldcpa
04/27/2013, 06:55 PM
My Desjardins sailfin is the one affected and it seems that the HLLE just started after I changed carbon a week ago. He is a pig and has a full belly.

He has only slight effect right now...but want to see if removing carbon completely will reverse the effects.

What are the negative effects of no carbon?

Chrisjbarry
04/27/2013, 07:02 PM
I never run carbon but recently have had a blue tang with mild signs of hlle starting. I feed a lot of red and green algae with pellets and all types of mixxed frozen food.

Dolmo5000
04/27/2013, 07:13 PM
So, some people may suggest that running carbon 24/7 can strip the water of a few things that are needed by the organisms, but I'm not totally on that boat. Here is what goes on. Carbon has 4 electrons in its outer most valence shell and wants a total of 8. It will take ionic molecules of any type wanting to donate 1,2,3 or 4 electrons. ANYTHING that has a charge and wants to donate will react/bond with the carbon. What this means is that the carbon is not particular at all. There are many toxins it will react with, and there are many potential nutrients that it might strip from the water.

Its not wise in my opinion to follow others personal experiences ONLY, as they have a biased/skewed opinion. That being because they only have their own (small sample size). I know people in both camps, totally pro, and totally con GAC.

That said, I'll add my own experience...lol

I have a dwarf angelfish, coral beauty that has had HLLE for 2 years now. I can tell within 5 minutes of turning on GAC that she is uncomfortable. She starts swimming erratically and brushing up against things. Take it for what you will. Hope I helped.

hypnoj
04/27/2013, 08:28 PM
I really wish there was a general consensus on whether is was good to run GAC or not in reef tanks. Do reefers who have stopped running GAC on their tanks even see a difference? It seems all the GAC users claim up and down they see a big difference in water clarity. What about those who used to run it and have now stopped. Do they see a difference?

mwilliams62
04/27/2013, 08:39 PM
I have s desjardin sailfin tang and he to had hlle. He previously was in a tank that I had those hob filters that udef carbon in them. I upgraded to a reef ready tank and have not used carbon in it at all. It has been setup up for almost a year now and it has not healed up.

H2OCulture
04/27/2013, 08:44 PM
I've used carbon on and off. IMO carbon is good for water clarity, but there are better options out there such as UV and Ozone if that's your goal. When it comes to organics (which is what carbon removes) there is no substitute for strong skimming and regular small water changes. Carbon can help remove the smaller stuff and any by-products your skimmer misses. My advice would be to run carbon occasionally or if your aquarium has been unkept for some time. It can assist your skimmer in nutrient removal and get your tank back on track quickly.

appellativo
06/06/2013, 12:12 PM
I too have read that carbon use can possibly be a contributing factor to HLLE (most recently in Marine Fish and Reef USA annual magazine, article by Mark A. Mitchell, DVM, MS PHD, DECZM [Herpetology])

I'm glad to hear various people's experiences on this so thanks to all who chimed in.

MrTuskfish
06/06/2013, 02:29 PM
There are a zillion things that have been accused of causing HLLE. The paper I read on carbon seemed to blame the dust from carbon that wasn't rinsed well enough. It was fairly convincing; but I've kept 1000 gals of Dts for many years and have never had any HLLE that I could positively blame on carbon, it cleared up too fast. I have always used a good GAC in all my tanks/systems. Cheap carbon is worthless. I don't think carbon is a necessity, I use it as a water polisher, primarily. Many, many great tanks are run w/o carbon. If you want, switch to Purigen or rinse the carbon more thoroughly. http://www.seachem.com/Products/product_pages/Purigen.html

appellativo
06/06/2013, 03:35 PM
but I've kept 1000 gals of Dts for many years and have never had any HLLE that I could positively blame on carbon, it cleared up too fast. http://www.seachem.com/Products/product_pages/Purigen.html

What's Dts and by 'it cleared up too fast' what are you referring to?

MrTuskfish
06/07/2013, 08:28 AM
What's Dts and by 'it cleared up too fast' what are you referring to?

DTs="display tanks". The scarring (or whatever) on the fish resembled HLLE, but HLLE doesn't disappear as fast as this stuff did.

mwilliams62
06/07/2013, 10:18 AM
So for this 1L bottle of Purigen do you use the entire bottle ??? Directions just says each 1 L treats up to 1000 gallons for 6 months... It does not tell you how much to put in the mesh bag.

appellativo
06/07/2013, 10:52 AM
DT. Der!! (slaps self in head)

MrTuskfish
06/07/2013, 01:28 PM
So for this 1L bottle of Purigen do you use the entire bottle ??? Directions just says each 1 L treats up to 1000 gallons for 6 months... It does not tell you how much to put in the mesh bag.

I don't think it matters much, it changes color and can be re-charged when it needs to be. Call SeaChem tech support, they'll help. These are great folks and know their stuff. 1-888-seachem, I think.

mwilliams62
06/07/2013, 02:01 PM
Thanks will call them. Don't want to put too much in there and then again on the other hand don't want to put too little in there...

Palting
06/07/2013, 05:09 PM
I have 4 tangs in my tank of over 3 years, and use GAC 24/7. No HLLE. Some say it is the carbon "fines" that can cause HLLE. I always rinse my GAC until clear, and handle it gingerly and place it so it does not get pulverized.

As I understand it, carbon for fish is not really that important nor needed. It clarifies the water and helps control the fishy smell. Without carbon, your water can get a little yellow, and can smell funny. But your fish will be fine.

I use carbon 24/7 because I have a mixed reef. The corals have gotten so big they are running into one another, and chemical warfare is an ongoing process in my tank. In this scenario, I would say carbon is extremely important to remove the chemical toxins released by the fighting corals.

MrTuskfish
06/07/2013, 05:11 PM
Thanks will call them. Don't want to put too much in there and then again on the other hand don't want to put too little in there...

Puragen, like carbon, really cannot be under or overdosed. (Within reason, CMA) These products are just made to absorb undesirable stuff from the water without releasing anything dangerous. I guess an obvious question would be something like "do they absorb vital elements from reef tanks"? This came to me while typing, ,but I doubt if that's a concern or we would have heard of it.

As long as I'm gabby: Company tech-support is a very under-used IMO. If a company doesn't have good tech help (or idiots & salesmen pretending to be tech people; I don't buy their stuff and let them know why. I've had SeaChem direct me to a competitors product a couple of times and even been sent free stuff on occasion. This drivel is intended for using manufactures tech support, not retailers.

MrTuskfish
06/07/2013, 05:18 PM
I have 4 tangs in my tank of over 3 years, and use GAC 24/7. No HLLE. Some say it is the carbon "fines" that can cause HLLE. I always rinse my GAC until clear, and handle it gingerly and place it so it does not get pulverized.

As I understand it, carbon for fish is not really that important nor needed. It clarifies the water and helps control the fishy smell. Without carbon, your water can get a little yellow, and can smell funny. But your fish will be fine.

I use carbon 24/7 because I have a mixed reef. The corals have gotten so big they are running into one another, and chemical warfare is an ongoing process in my tank. In this scenario, I would say carbon is extremely important to remove the chemical toxins released by the fighting corals.


Good Info.
Ever take a bag of well-used carbon and pulverize it with a hammer? Do it outside. I think good carbon does a lot of stuff we don't know about. Cheap carbon (like the carbon that comes in most HOB filter cartridges) is worthless. Good GAC is dull colored and uniform in shape. If hospital ERs can use carbon to soak up drugs from an overdose; it works for me.

dkeller_nc
06/07/2013, 06:10 PM
Here is what goes on. Carbon has 4 electrons in its outer most valence shell and wants a total of 8. It will take ionic molecules of any type wanting to donate 1,2,3 or 4 electrons. ANYTHING that has a charge and wants to donate will react/bond with the carbon.

From the chemistry perspective, this isn't quite right. Carbon does indeed have 4 unfilled electron orbits that means that it will covalently bond to many different atoms that have electrons to "donate".

But it does not bond ionic substances - ionic bonding is a different animal to covalent bonding.

In particular, carbon is a lousy absorber of ionic substances, though high-quality, highly porous carbon will remove some amount through physical sequestration.

However, it will absorb neutral, hydrophobic molecules with a vengeance. That is why it is used in industry to remove dyes and so-called "color bodies" in raw sugar liquor to convert brown sugar to white sugar. In an aquarium, it's a wonderful absorber of color substances that can render tank water yellow. It will also readily absorb oils and other hydrophobic substances that interfere with foam formation, so in certain situations it will greatly aid the removal of proteins from water by skimming.

From the standpoint of fish health, it's conceivable that carbon could remove amino acids and vitamins from the water that would be beneficial to have around. But one would think that the vast majority of these substances would available to the fish in their food in much greater quantities than could be absorbed through the tank water.

rldcpa
06/07/2013, 07:53 PM
I stopped using the carbon for 3-4 weeks and had some toxic issues so I am back using it again, but this time not in a reactor, just in a bag.

My issue with HLLE on the Sailfin tang was most likely from the carbon as even though I rinsed it well, small particles stained the felt socks black and accumulated in the skimmer.

With the bag of charcoal (without reactor), I get very little dust and very little darkening of the sock and skimmer.

I wish there was a dust free carbon or substitute product.

Would a UV unit or Ozone unit be a good substitute for GAC?

dkeller_nc
06/08/2013, 08:08 AM
With the bag of charcoal (without reactor), I get very little dust and very little darkening of the sock and skimmer.

I wish there was a dust free carbon or substitute product.

Would a UV unit or Ozone unit be a good substitute for GAC?

It's not dust-free, but I use SeaChem's Matrix carbon. It's the same stuff that's used in the pharmaceutical industry to remove certain contaminants from the chemical synthesis of drugs. As you might imagine, little specs of carbon dust in a tablet of a drug would be a huge no-no. Pretty much an instant investigation by the FDA for distributing "impure" substances.

With Matrix, you can rinse the dust out with 3-4 rinses of RODI, but the main advantage is that the particles are spherical and very hard, so further crushing/disintegration after putting it in service is unlikely.

In one sense, a special kind of UV would be substitute for GAC in that it will destroy dissolved organic compounds, with the end product being CO2 and nitrates/phosphates. But those kind of UV units emit radiation in 185nm range, not the 210-254nm range that is typically available to hobbyists for the purpose of killing viable bacteria/algae/parasites in the water.

Similarly, ozone will destroy dissolved organics by oxidation, and will produce CO2 and nitrates. It will also kill living cells in the way that a UV sterilizer will.

The disadvantage to both of these methods is that they non-biologically mimic the nitrogen cycle instead of removing the DOC before they turn into CO2 and nitrates/phosphates like a skimmer and GAC will.

1SlickFish
06/08/2013, 08:20 AM
I am starting to wonder if it is some unknown pathagen that gets out of control with carbon dosing? It happens to fish with and without, so, there is some third entity in play here. It just so happens you hear about it more with carbon dosing/cleaning/filtering.

Gary Majchrzak
06/08/2013, 08:27 AM
I am starting to wonder if it is some unknown pathagen that gets out of control with carbon dosing? It happens to fish with and without, so, there is some third entity in play here. It just so happens you hear about it more with carbon dosing/cleaning/filtering.carbon (source) dosing and the use of GAC/granular activated carbon/GAC are two ENTIRELY different things.

I've never before heard it suggested that carbon dosing (ie: with sugars/vinegar/vodka/bio pellets) causes HILLE or is linked to it in any way.

On the other hand I know first hand that carbon fines can cause HILLE.

sabbath
06/08/2013, 08:29 AM
Are people having problems with this with a good rinsed Rox8 carbon?

Gary Majchrzak
06/08/2013, 08:31 AM
Are people having problems with this with a good rinsed Rox8 carbon?IME you MUST rinse ALL GAC's including ROX.

NEVER place carbon in a situation where it gets pulverized. Carbon fines cause HILLE.

fazilosman
06/08/2013, 08:37 AM
IME you MUST rinse ALL GAC's including ROX.

NEVER place carbon in a situation where it gets pulverized. Carbon fines cause HILLE.

I agree with Gary and have also seen similar research. Additionally, there was much discussion before regarding Miracle Mud and it's effect on "curing" HLLE. Now, I am not advocating rushing out and purchasing anything but I have had many tangs over the years with this system and never had HLLE. It may be interesting for you to take a look at these discussions and see if anything applies to your situation. I think Mike Palleta wrote an article on this that convinced me to try the system in the beginning.

Good luck.

EDIT: http://www.ecosystemaquarium.com/images/stories/PDF/Observations_of_EcoSystem_and_HLLE.pdf

Gary Majchrzak
06/08/2013, 08:42 AM
I've had personal experience with 'Miracle Mud'.
There may be situations where it's helpful.
However...that being stated.. I've obtained Acanthuriids displaying HILLE and put them into a healthy "reef aquarium" type environments and fed them well to see them fully recover from HILLE. No MM.

Diet and control of carbon use seem to be the biggies here for me.

Major offense with carbon use is placing it in a filter sock where draining water pounds it.

DON'T DO IT!

fazilosman
06/08/2013, 09:38 AM
Personally, I have two MF-2000 upflow media reactors running off my return manifold. Initially, I simply added ROX and HC GFO to these but did not like the media getting into the strainer and also the tumble of the carbon. So I reverted to using two media bags in each reactor. Seems a little silly but it works for me and makes changing the media really easy. Also, per Gary's good advice - it prevents the media from disintegrating by friction.

I think if you followed this protocol, with improved nutrition then the HLLE could be healed successfully.

drej424
06/08/2013, 09:50 AM
I've had tangs with HLLE and was advised to soak food in Boyd's Vita-Chem. It worked for me and I've been using this product ever since. I've never had any new cases of HLLE develop.

Denise

Gary Majchrzak
06/08/2013, 10:01 AM
carbon tumbling in a reactor (or any kind of friction situation) can cause carbon fines and this should be avoided.
(A lot of people make the assumption that since granular ferric oxide should tumble so should GAC. Not true!)

There are foods and additives to help reverse HILLE.
Besides the aforementioned VitaChem (no personal experience with that here) there's Selcon.

A good rotational diet is also a must IMO/IME.

Flake ain't gonna cure HILLE ;)

1SlickFish
06/08/2013, 10:18 AM
carbon (source) dosing and the use of GAC/granular activated carbon/GAC are two ENTIRELY different things.

I've never before heard it suggested that carbon dosing (ie: with sugars/vinegar/vodka/bio pellets) causes HILLE or is linked to it in any way.

On the other hand I know first hand that carbon fines can cause HILLE.

IME you MUST rinse ALL GAC's including ROX.

NEVER place carbon in a situation where it gets pulverized. Carbon fines cause HILLE.


But yet it happens in tanks with no mass quantities of GAC or GAC in general, so, please explain that one.

Gary Majchrzak
06/08/2013, 10:50 AM
But yet it happens in tanks with no mass quantities of GAC or GAC in general, so, please explain that one.HILLE occurs in aquarium fishes that have NEVER EVER run GAC or GFO.
Diet is usually the culprit, however, HILLE has been known to occur in WILD fishes in the ocean.

Nobody here is making the claim that GAC is the only cause of HILLE.

rldcpa
06/08/2013, 04:34 PM
The only tang that has it is the Desjardins and it is interesting to note he is the only tang that does not really graze on algae or eat the provided green or purple algae I place on a Vegi Clip. All the other tangs graze and eat the provided algae and do not have the HLLE.

Maybe not enough vegetation in their diet has something to do with it also.

1SlickFish
06/08/2013, 05:04 PM
Nobody here is making the claim that GAC is the only cause of HILLE.


The problem I have is the word "causes". Thrown around in ths manner loosly can make people think they are free and clear if they dont use GAC, and, that no further testing, evaluation or cautionary measurement are needed when there is also another entity at play.