sk8r's new tank...

[Sk8r]

A 54g, which we got when we lived on the third floor of an apartment, grows corals real well...but isn't right for the fishes I most like. And I moved some years ago. So I'm finally changing tanks, be advised, and those of you used to hearing me talk about my 54 will find me talking about a 100g---[it's actually 105]. The old 54 is going to become a planted freshwater, and the 105 will become a damsel/blenny/dartfish/goby/dragonet reef. It's a corner bow again---but deep. And I'm real excited about it. I've missed my damsels, and the more I talked about them on RC, the more I truly missed them.

So I'll be setting up in days to come. It was an adventure shipping it to my house, an adventure getting it up two sets of steps to get it into the living room, but I rejoice to say when I tested it for level---it was absolutely level.

I'm doing a few 'unusual' things, too: I'm glassing over the top, with metal halides, and so far it looks as if I'm doing ok on the heat-budget: there is a wooden canopy, but I removed the droplid on it, and it has extensive cutouts: my light kit has fans, so it is amply ventilated and heat is not a problem...but you have to remember how much energy a 10000k MH light is delivering to the water, sand, and rock below.

If it heats too much, a fan on the sump is a possibility, too, but thus far, with a basement sump in a cool area, I seem to be stabilizing (to my surprise) at a beautiful 78.5 degrees, day to night.

[The glass lid is because of the dartfish and blennies, who are champion jumpers. Particularly the dartfish.]

The glass may interfere with my keeping sps: that remains to be seen; but lps should still be happy, and if it continues to grow coral like the 54 I'll have no complaints.

So---a canopy, and a glass top. BUT putting a fan on the open sump, and having a strong skimmer, and a very energetic waterfall into the sump. That part's important: there has to be some provision for cooling, and you're losing part of the beneficial spectrum when you pass that light through regular glass. My light has a glass cover. I could remove that part of the glass, and rely on the light fixture alone to cover the opening, but I'm just going to see how this works and how the corals fare.

I also didn't like the fan-shaped water nozzle, single, that was the return outlet, so I made a spraybar out of pvc, capped at the end, to replace it, and sank it vertically to deliver flow at all levels and keep the bottom circulating. So far, so good: it is delivering water out all those holes with some force. This is a wedge-shaped tank, a corner bow, 30" deep.

I'll let you know how my tinkering works, and how I'm doing with the canopy situation.

My livestock is waiting it out in the 54g, and we're now watered and waiting, over in the 105g.

Don't anybody rush to do likewise until I can tell you the canopy above with cooling in sump is working.

[gone fishin]

Look forward to some pics once it is up and running.

[Misled]

http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q68/jllndmb/716472191643056pics.gif (http://s133.photobucket.com/user/jllndmb/media/716472191643056pics.gif.html)

[whiteshark]

That spray bar, do you have a check valve on the incoming line? Or is the top most hole on the bar high enough that, should the pump fail, it won't overflow the sump?

I'm sure with your experience you've thought of this but you never know.

[Sk8r]

GOod question, whiteshark. It does have a siphon break!

[Sk8r]

Ok, early pix...the old and the new tank side by side.
http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f269/Sk8r10/tankupdate-21.jpg

The old tank is holding livestock until the new tank is safely cycled and bacteria'ed.

[TimeConsumer]

Have you thought about the DIY mesh tops? I've seen some manage to bend one of the pieces to fit a bowfront, you may be able to do it in a corner tank as well.

[johnike]

Can't wait for the smoke to clear, this will be a lovely tank.
And don't finalize your rock work just yet.
;)
:)

[Sk8r]

Because of the wooden top, we need to minimize water and humidity. On the other hand, interestingly enough, the tank canopy has openings for fans, and there are, to my delight, arrays of fans which are made just exactly for this purpose, some controlled by thermostat, but I'm not fond of thermostats: when they go bad, they go dangerously bad. A plugin fan array on the sump instead of the tank may be my best solution---again, don't imitate my setup: I'm inventing my way through this, and I think I can keep the temperature down. I appreciate any clever thoughts or observations...I'll explain how I solve the problem, assuming I can solve it, and that mesh is a real good solution if you've got anything but wood.


And no, Johnike, bless you, we aren't finalizing that rockwork yet!!!!

[Ciscokid]

New to the hobby?

[jhill]

New to the hobby?

:lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao:

[Deep Reef]

Congrats on the new tank. looking forward to the build!

[gone fishin]

once your tank clears up can you put a pic of the spray bar. I toyed with the idea when I was setting up mine.

[jerpa]

Because of the wooden top, we need to minimize water and humidity. On the other hand, interestingly enough, the tank canopy has openings for fans, and there are, to my delight, arrays of fans which are made just exactly for this purpose, some controlled by thermostat, but I'm not fond of thermostats: when they go bad, they go dangerously bad. A plugin fan array on the sump instead of the tank may be my best solution---again, don't imitate my setup: I'm inventing my way through this, and I think I can keep the temperature down. I appreciate any clever thoughts or observations...I'll explain how I solve the problem, assuming I can solve it, and that mesh is a real good solution if you've got anything but wood.


And no, Johnike, bless you, we aren't finalizing that rockwork yet!!!!

I have a wooden canopy with no glass covers, no covers at all actually. The top insert has been removed to accommodate the lighting and for ventilation. I don't use any fans though. The water level is within 1/4" of the canopy with significant surface agitation. After 18 months there is no damage to the canopy at all. I do prefer the mesh for gas exchange and I find the glass covers to be pain.

Congrats on the new tank. It's a lot of work but definitely worth it.

[tsiklauss]

I had a wooden canopy on my. 92g bow front for two years with no issues. I did have the fans in it. One on the top was an exhaust and one on each back side where intakes.

[Ciscokid]

:lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao:

I guess you missed where it was posted "New to the Hobby" section.

[accordsirh22]

i have a wood canopy on my 40 with no glass lid, there are fans that run across the LEDs but not acting as vents. no humidity damage at all. the back is open however

[cap032]

Grats on the new tank Sk8r. I have a wooden canopy on my 125. I used a hole saw to drill out a few ventilation holes in the top and coated the underside with paint and then Spar polyurethane. So far so good. The only downside is that the Spar gave the white paint a yellowish tinge. Oh well, nobody sees that anyway. Lol

[Sk8r]

Well, the heat budget is going to be interesting. It got up to 81 yesterday. Then I put a fan on the sump, which knocked it down to 78 in an hour. That's more fluctuation than I like in a short time with fish in the tank (there aren't). And by morning it had knocked it down to 72, with the lights off. So today I'm turning the fan rate down to low, and we'll take the next couple of days seeing how that shakes out. I think I need a less potent fan, but that'll take time to acquire. [The light kit itself has two fans.] With my live rock in there, and one stowaway crab (I've had her since 2007, and I really don't want to lose her) I don't want to take chances with overheating.

There are specialty fans you can order, and they're definitely an option. I have all my noisy stuff downstairs in the basement and had rather have the fans located there, because tanks are noisy enough, but fans I think are in this tank's future, either abovestairs or below.

I appreciate the info on the netting and the durability of wooden lids: I will definitely factor that into decisionmaking here. I'm going to need another autotopoff--- we found the old tank a gallon or so down last night, and that will be a pain if not automated.

For everybody following this---setting up your heat budget is one of the most critical things you can do, and the more you can have it independent of electricity and automated systems the better: if you have it where it settles down to a 2-point swing day to night and are not heavily reliant on gear that can fail, good! The reasons why I am considering fans as an option is a) they're an OLD tech, and fans are fans are fans---they don't often fail. b) if they do fail its because the power went out, and if that happens, the lights go, too, so at least you don't have high-intensity lights running without the fan.

Of course at that time you have the pumps out, and need a way to keep your tank going. I like to have my tank capable of going at least 8 hours without power: this means no overstocking. Oxygenation is the big issue. And if you can have a power source like a computer power unit that can provide power to pump more oxygenated water (cheato algae is good at this) from the sump up to the tank for 5 minutes once an hour you can extend that time.

The other consideration is temperature range. I won't let a tank get above 81. I don't like it to get below 75, and I'd like it between 77 and 80. But if you have to choose disasters, choose cold. Chemistry slows down in cold; it speeds up in heat. So catastrophe happens faster with overheating than with a chilldown. Marine critters can survive down to 58 briefly, can survive longer periods at 62, and cold is, over all easier to handle than heat, which can kill within hours... Cold water carries oxygen well; overheated water loses oxygen. So it's a dual problem: and too cold is better than too hot.

I'm going to be working on this heat budget until I get it right. People always ask "What can you do while you're cycling? It's so boring!" ---well, this part is real, real important and tricksy!

[Sk8r]

Just a note: I'm still working on the heat budget. I've tried two different fans on the sump, but both are overpowered. [It has 2 fans on the light kit in the canopy, and I still think the sump is the place to control the heat.] It may be that the tank will find its own equilibrium. The next few days will tell. I want the balance point to be about 79, a little up, a little down at night.

[tommyhrs]

How is the verticle return working out? I was going to go with a horizontal, but if it helps with better turbulence I may go vert.

[Sk8r]

SO far so good on the vertical return. Less surface turbulence, but a great deal of lower level circulation. You DO [triple and quadruple underline] need a hole up near your regular water line to serve as a siphon break, or when you cut the pump off, it will continue siphoning water out until it reaches the holes. I have an Iwaki 100 powering this thing from downstairs---that's a potent pump; but I think I'm going to like this.

design: I took a piece of 3/4 inch pvc, and a drill: drilled small and large holes up and down, except on the side of the tube which fits up against the overflow box. [This is a corner tank, so it has only one central overflow.] I capped the bottom of the tube to force flow out the holes. And I have a hole within an inch of the waterline, so that whenever the return pump cuts off, the tube sucks air in at that point, and stops draining my tank down into the sump. If that hole weren't high enough up the tube, the sump could overflow.

Here's a pic but not a good one: I used the pipe provided by the manufacturer---grey but ok. Generally white pipe, drinking water safe, is the rule.
http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f269/Sk8r10/tankupdate-08.jpg

[Sk8r]

And.......I found out why I'm having a headache on the heat balance. Our house a/c isn't working. I could spit nails! OTOH, if that's what's been going on (we're at that state of weather where it's mostly cool, but not) ---I may not need more fans to make this balance. It's only in the late evening that it starts going over 80. If I can prevent that late-evening heatup of the house, the ventilation I've got on the canopy may be enough that I don't need a fan on the sump.

Any summertime power-out condition would also take the lights, AND the fans, so I think we might be ok.

We're having the repair folk in this afternoon, we hope.

[Sk8r]

The a/c is now fixed: broken wire in the thermostat. We're good. Now we see what this tank REALLY does in a normal room temperature.

[maddmaxx]

The a/c is now fixed: broken wire in the thermostat. We're good. Now we see what this tank REALLY does in a normal room temperature.

never fun to find a problem, but its fixed now. and atleast your house will be temp control properly now. did you notice anything last summer and the a/c?

[Badkarma88]

Sorry if I missed it but what sand/substrate are you using? From the picture it appears to have to larger sized particles.

[shifty51008]

From the looks of the sand it looks like carib. Special grade.

Looking good so far, im also intrested in the spray bar

[fishgate]

Great job! I suggest you test the siphon break on the spray bar. One small hole may not be enough to stop the siphon if it goes full-siphon.

[Sk8r]

Tested re the siphon break, and we're good: I believe in having a large 'freeboard' in a sump, and though dim me put the siphon break on the bar just a tad low, it works perfectly.

Yep, that special grade Carib is the sand I like. I tried the fine stuff and hated it so much I went the difficult route of removing it from the reef. It killed corals. (It is a pretty potent pump and the sand never would quit walking.) Also, one of my fish will be a jawfish---and they like sand that's got fragments in it so their burrow walls stay put.
It took the store some to-do to get hold of some medium grade, but they did it. I use dry sand. Takes a LOT of washing. A LOT of washing, about 300 gallons water for every couple of gallons of sand, but it's worth the effort, believe me!

I've had more headaches with the heat/ac thing: one of our heaters went out. Fortunately my additional live rock is coming in today, and we can start finalizing the tank. I've been working on this for a while.

One of the real assets to the operation has been my fuge. I've had a fuge set up with sand, rock, cheato in the sump: and the thing is absolutely rife with living stuff, live mysis, copepods, limpets, crabs, snails, featherdusters, cheato, etc, and with that old, old fuge connected to this new tank, it's setting up very, very fast. It STILL takes time, note well, for bacteria to penetrate to the depth of the new dry sandbed and to set up in good order, and it still takes time for bacteria to colonize all the way to the heart of the new dry rock. Them lil' bacteria just keep marching on, setting up and dividing and such, but rock being rock, they have to find their microscopic ways into it, and there's no miracle going to wave a magic wand and say 'insto-change-o, your rock will now be cycled.' That's why it takes 4 weeks for a new tank to really set up and 12 before you can say it's really, really set up. We try to explain this in all sorts of ways, but the basic thing is---bacteria can only divide so fast and hike so far per day. This tank probably won't even see an ammonia spike, because it's got bacteria enough in that sump to handle most anything ordinary that comes along. The sump-fauna isn't dying off: they're spreading to the new tank with every pulse of the pump. But that does NOT mean the new tank is fully developed and able to handle a full fish load...nor can be for some time.

Does that make sense? This is why we say, Whoa, wait, when somebody whose tank has JUST cycled, wants to add a bunch of fish straight-off. No, no, no, no. Nothing that's going to challenge that tank, because the bacterial layer is so fragile and so thin. First comes a cleanup crew, who's not there to eat the algae (which this tank, thanks to that fuge, may also skip) ---but just to eat and poo delicate little poo into that sandbed and feed the bacteria we're trying to get to plump up and divide and keep dividing. The deal is not to overload the bacteria.

[shifty51008]

have you thought about a ranco dual temp controller to turn your fans and heaters on and off? I have used one for the last 8 years and would never run a tank without one again

[Sk8r]

I've definitely thought about a controller, but they're pretty pricey and I just blew it all on this tank. I use hardware timers (which I already have) on the lights, and if (between the a/c issues and finding the Eheim heater gone wonky and not working) I can get the tank to stabilize its day/dark temperature balance, it may settle out into an acceptable range...

Just for general info, to those following: The big deal on a new tank is getting all the rock and sand and water and glass warmed up in the first place: rock and sand have a definite lag re heating up and cooling down, and if you can find a 'sweet spot' in the temperature range, what with your pumps, lights and all (I have MH and I AM using a glass top, though with a completely open sump and a waterfall for gas exchange, so the greatest hazard for this tank is overheating; but somewhere between the cooldown of night and the metal halides, and a little help from a heater that DOES work, I'm hoping to tame it down to a few degree swing.