Using pure ammonia to cycle

[Cymonous]

I have a gallon of this stuff to cycle my 65gallon. How much do I use to get 5ppm of ammonia?

[gone fishin]

I added 5 drops/ten gallons it got me in the ballpark.

[Cymonous]

Only 5 drops per 10 gallons?

[gone fishin]

It has been awhile but I am pretty sure that is what I used. pure ammonia is some potent stuff LOL

I have heard of people using an ammonia badge. add ammonia until it turns dark green.

[James77]

Only 5 drops per 10 gallons?

Sounds good...you could always add less and test. Its not a race :)



Make sure that is pure ammonia. Shake the bottle, there should be no suds in there

[Badkarma88]

I used this online calculator http://www.fishforums.net/aquarium-calculator.htm

[Badkarma88]

Make sure that is pure ammonia. Shake the bottle, there should be no suds in there

This is also very important

[hollister]

WHAT. The point of the cycle is to remove ammonia. Why do you want to add? Is this bizzaro world?

[eacosta]

hollister, in order to cycle you need a source of ammonia. I assume that Cymonous is probably starting with dry rock and needs to introduce the ammonia to begin the cycle.

[hollister]

Well with dry rock a bacterial source would be much more productive. Like a frag or substrate from an established tank. This would jump start the cycle.

[whiteshark]

A bacterial source should be added, but a bacterial source alone won't cycle a tank. The bacteria need ammonia to multiply. The ammonia AND bacteria source are necessary.

I used all dry rock and sand. I used seachems ammonia badge and added ammonia, 2 to 3 drops at a time, until the badge turned dark. Added about a double does of biospira and a bit of tlf bacteria as well. Cranked the temp up to about 90F. When my test kit indicated 0 ammonia I added ammonia again until the badge turned dark. When the ammonia read 0 again I followed nitrites until they read 0. At that time I added enough ammonia to get the water to about 2 ppm. It went to 0, as did nitrites, within 12 hours which told me the cycle was done.

The whole process to about 2.5 weeks.

[buddy23]

Nope you just need ammonia.

[whiteshark]

Nope you just need ammonia.

The bacteria absolutely have to come from somewhere. If you don't add any they will have to come from the air and that will slow the cycle some. I guess if that doesn't matter to you then its no big deal. If you use a bit of live rock that would also be a good bacteria source but then you introduce the chance of unwanted hitchhiker's and phosphate leaching. This kind of cancels out many of the benefits of cycling with pure ammonia IMO.

[fishgate]

Is it possible not to have any bacteria? Isn't bacteria everywhere? I have never added any bacteria to any of my tanks. I have also started with dry rock and always get the cycle. I would still start with a rock or some substrate from an established tank simply because of the quantity you would get from that source.

[Cymonous]

I got some rock from a local club member. 1/4 in a dry bucket, rest was wet, but I did not keep it wet. I bleached/acid wash 4 large pieces of rock. So, I would say half of the rock I put in was old wet rock. The wet rock did not look bad at all, no green algae or anything. I added my ammonia badge last night, but I know it takes a while for it to get acclimated to the water. I also added a couple drops of ammonia last night. This morning the badge was reading about .05. I started adding more and more drops to it was a little lighter than the dark blue. So, I would say it is at about .4ppm.

Since I have some old wet rock, do I still need to add bacteria?

[jaynigz]

I use microbacter7 along with liquid NH4 to kick start the cycle. You need ammonia to start the cycle no matter how you put it.

[Cymonous]

I have the ammonia in the tank, but do I need to add some kind of liquid bacteria since I have old wet rock in the tank?

[thegrun]

No, the bacteria will find your tank (airborne).

[disc1]

They're also present in that wet rock. You just need to wait a little while so they can build up their population. That's what we call cycling in a tank.

[Cymonous]

Ok, that's what I thought. It felt like so long since I cycled a tank.

[eacosta]

All the rock was "wet" at one time. The distinction is if it is live or not. Live means it has the bacteria on it. Your "old wet" rock no longer has bacteria on it since you did not keep it wet and fed with ammonia. The bacteria will find your tank, but if you want things to go a little faster than it is a good idea to "seed" your tank. You can either get a small piece of cured live rock from your lfs or get a cup of sand from an established tank. I cycled my 29g with 25lbs or dry rock and 5lbs of live rock. It took 3 weeks. My friend did a 29g at the same time with just dry rock and it took 6 weeks.

[cap032]

Microbacter or Dr Tims will help to speed up the process. Be careful whan dosing. I would recommend dosing ammo to 3ppm. Dont dose again until both ammo and nitrite are .05ppm or less. If you overdose and drive nitrite levels past 5ppm.......its possible your cycle could stall which would then require you to do a water change to kick it back in. Continue dosing ammo to 3ppm until you can get a reading of 0 for both ammo and nitrite within 24hrs. This will produce a strong cycle.

[whiteshark]

My point is that the bacteria need to come from somewhere. If you use all dry rock and sand then the bacteria will have to come from the air. If you wait for airborne bacteria it will take much longer to cycle the tank than if you use a more concentrated source like bottled bacteria or a chunk of LR. You also need a source of ammonia whether it's bottled, death on LR or a frozen shrimp. Without one of either bacteria or ammonia your tank won't cycle. You can't have just ammonia and you can't have just bacteria.

[Cymonous]

I already have about 4ppm of ammonia in the tank. I added some bottled bacteria yesterday after I got home from work.

[drillsar]

so you can use just a frozen shrimp?

[voidg]

I used ammonia to load my tank as well. I would suggest you contact the manufacturer of the ammonia product you intend to use to 1) ensure it is pure and 2) determine the % of pure ammonia in the product, then you can use the calculator (as linked above) to determine the approximate amount to dose.

[drillsar]

Would frozen tilapia work and that all I need?

[sleepydoc]

WHAT. The point of the cycle is to remove ammonia. Why do you want to add? Is this bizzaro world?

Not sure if you were being serious or sarcastic there, but I'll assume you were legitimately confused.

The point of the cycle is to grow a colony of denitrifying bacteria. These feed on ammonia and their presence can be inferred by the drop in ammonia levels, but the ammonia drop is simply a marker that these bacteria have populated the tank.

Bacterial growth requires food, which is or course ammonia. You can get this ammonia from waste from a live fish (an old-school method that most consider cruel,) decaying matter from flakes of fish food, a piece of cocktail shrimp (or frozen tilapia, I suppose) or straight pure ammonia as the OP is inquiring about.

[Boomer71]

+1 on Dr.Tims

[sporto0]

Wow! People, I suggest reading up on the nitrogen cycle before starting a saltwater set-up, the questions being asked are 101 level, please, please understand what a cycle is & how it begins before you BEGIN, this is the moist rudimentary & essential part of the hobby, once you grasp this concept, the rest is butter......well, almost but it's the backbone to being successful. In a nutshell, any ammonia ie decaying food, poop, etc. will kick start a "cycle" which is completed by nitrifying bacteria, these colonize to "eat" ammonia & regurgitate nitrites, another form of bacteria turn nitrites into NITRATES, which for the most part are harmless, YES, harmless, occasionally some nitrates are converted into a N2, a gaseous substance, but not always, so any form of ammonia is acceptable to start up, this is elementary my dear Watson, something that should be understood thoroughly before beginning.

[Cymonous]

My ammonia is at 0 and nitrites are at 4ppm. Am I suppose to add more ammonia? Do I have to wait till nitrites are at 0 before adding more ammonia?

[sleepydoc]

Nope - just watch your nitrites and when they drop you should be good.

[cap032]

My ammonia is at 0 and nitrites are at 4ppm. Am I suppose to add more ammonia? Do I have to wait till nitrites are at 0 before adding more ammonia?

You add more ammonia to 2-3 ppm after both ammonia and nitrites drop below .5ppm. When your tank can process 2-3ppm of ammonia to 0 ammo and 0 nitrite in 24hrs, you are cycled. Definately Do Not dose again until that nitrite level is at or below .5ppm. The reason being is that you dont want nitrite to go over 5ppm because it could possibly stall the cycle.

[appellativo]

Thanks people for this thread.

Can anyone guess-timate this for me: when will I start to see nitrites?

I put thirty gallons of water, dry rock and dry crushed coral in the tank with a heater and powerhead, along with a bottle of smartstart complete bacteria. I dosed ammonia to 1 ppm on Thursday night (last night). Thanks!

[dirtycontour]

Would frozen tilapia work and that all I need?

Anything rotting will work. You can feed the tank flake food if you want.

[Cymonous]

Appell, I would get your ammonia to a higher ppm of about 4ppm.

[appellativo]

i added some ammonia just now and the darn API test kit, I can't tell if its 2.0 or 4.0ppm.

[thegrun]

Either 2.0 or 4.0 is fine, when your ammonia drops back to zero (and your nitrites also drop to zero) the initial cycle is complete.

[appellativo]

cool. and I read that once its cycled, the bacteria can live a few days without dosing ammonia, and that I should dose twice a week with ammonia until I add fish to keep their numbers up. I got that from someone who asked Dr. Tim and that's what he said. for what that's worth lol

[dmh8801]

Thanks people for this thread.

Can anyone guess-timate this for me: when will I start to see nitrites?

I put thirty gallons of water, dry rock and dry crushed coral in the tank with a heater and powerhead, along with a bottle of smartstart complete bacteria. I dosed ammonia to 1 ppm on Thursday night (last night). Thanks!

I'm twelve days into cycling a new tank and seen my first signs of nitrites two days ago (the 10th day). Today my nitrites are very high and I'm starting to see a little color change on my nitrates. Ammonia is still about where it has been since day four, maybe a little higher.

I started the tank with 50 pounds of dead rock, about 35 pounds of dead sand, one dead shrimp and a 1 pound live rock I got from the LFS.

Today I noticed things have started growing on the little live rock. Very cool!

HTH's

[appellativo]

cool thanks for your experience. What level ammonia are you at? You have not seen any decrease in ammonia yet? I assume the piece of dead shrimp is still in the tank, providing a constant ammonia source?

[dmh8801]

cool thanks for your experience. What level ammonia are you at? You have not seen any decrease in ammonia yet? I assume the piece of dead shrimp is still in the tank, providing a constant ammonia source?

I'm in the range of 1 to 1.5 for ammonia right now. I thought it would go higher but it hasn't. That's been my readings since about day four. It's kind of hard to tell exactly what you have with the API test kit but I know it's still there.

Yes, the shrimp is still in it. My plan is to leave it in the tank and in a couple of weeks when the tank levels out, add some snails and crabs and let them take care of it. Let nature and the tank take its course.

cool thanks for your experience.
I think I may have a couple of days of experience on you.:lol: This is our first saltwater tank. Just passing on what I'm going though.:p

[appellativo]

your (recent) experience of cycling, not your total hobby experience ;)
I have a few years experience, but each tank cycles differently. I think way back when I cycled using shrimp, I removed the shrimp after I had some ammonia, so I could give it a chance to go down. I'm not 100% sure, but if you leave that shrimp in there, it could take much longer for your ammonia levels to ever go down. Also I'm not sure what ppm ammonia a CUC could handle....perhaps they'd make such short work of the shrimp that in itself would allow the ammonia levels to come down...who knows? Anybody want to chime in on that?

The only reason I'm chomping at the bit is because I'm in a bit of an unusual situation. I had to break down my 30 gallon, put the fish into a hospital tank for ich (using tank transfer method) and in the meantime, I'm trying to get their new (ich free) setup cycled and ready for them by the time they are 'done.' If the tank is not cycled, I'll be forced to just maintain them with water changes while I wait for the DT to cycle which will make me sad.

They've been in their hospital tank for 57 hours and there is still no detectable ammonia in their tank, although it is getting quite gross in there, and kinda cloudy. everyone's eating and acting normal so that's good. time to do a complete transfer in the morning so looking forward to (and dreading) that....

[dmh8801]

Yea I thought about that (if the shrimp stays in, is it a larger ammonia sorce than the tank can handle). I test the water every day or two to keep track of what's going on and if things look to be out of the norm I figured I would just take it out and feed the bacteria with flake food. We'll see what happens.

Not knowing anything about cycling in the past caused us to loose quite a few fish in our freshwater tank. Now that I understand how things work a little better and what to look for I plan on avoiding the loss. Nothing will go in the tank till it's ready. It's just not worth throwing money down the drain and killing fish when I know better.

Chomping at the bit is probebly an understatement for you. I'm chomping at the bit and I don't have any fish standing by.:fun5:

Are you showing any signs of nitrites or nitrates in the DT? From everything that I've read very low ammonia and nitrite readings along with a higher nitrate reading means the tank is processing the ammonia and should be about ready.

Good luck and looking forward to hearing how things work out.

[appellativo]

No, the new DT is showing 2ppm ammonia (this is only day three). ph is 8.2, no nitrite or nitrate.

I'll keep this thread up to date, in case my tank is any indication of how this cycling with ammonia goes. I have not added any ammonia past the 2.0ppm mark. I just dont see the point to add more until it starts to go down...

[dkeller_nc]

Folks - just an "add" here if another post-reader that isn't familiar with chemistry decides to use ammonia to cycle a tank:

It isn't possible to buy "pure" ammonia in the sense of a pure chemical - ammonia is a gas at room temperature. So what you're actually buying is ammonium hydroxide when you buy "liquid" ammonia. This is sold at varying concentrations - household ammonia is about a 2% solution of ammonium hydroxide. "Janitorial Strength" ammonia that is sold in hardware stores is about a 6% solution of ammonium hydroxide. Laboratory ammonium hydroxide is usually at 30%, and very dangerous to handle if you don't know what you're doing.

The problem comes from buying consumer-grade ammonium hydroxide. Most (though not all) "household ammonia" sold for cleaning purposes contains other ingredients intended to help the material do its job. One of the major constituents is detergent, which you don't want in a reef tank.

If you wish, and you think that you may need to cycle several tank setups that start from dry rock/sand, you may wish to purchase a small amount of ammonium sulfate from a lab supply company. While writing this thread, I found a 500g bottle on Amazon for $10.60. That's enough to cycle dozens of tanks, and it has an indefinite shelf life.

Ammonium chloride will also work quite well, and can be purchased from dedicated large animal agricultural stores, as well as on-line.

Just don't attempt to purchase ammonium nitrate as a pure compound - that may get you on a list that you don't want to be on. ;)

[appellativo]

ha ha. you're anal retentive like me.

I went to a chemical house to get my 29% ammonium hydroxide. That stuff is WICKED. Because yes, now that people like to make bombs out of it, you can't get the good stuff anymore unless you're a business owner. Luckily I am.

[dkeller_nc]

Well, you can still order 30% ammonium hydroxide from a lab supply house (you'd have to know a lot about chemistry to use ammonium hydroxide to build something nasty out of it), it's ammonium nitrate that's generally prohibited.

But - to newbies reading this, I'd highly recommend against buying 30% ammonium hydroxide. Ammonia gas is highly toxic and extremely corrosive to the mucous membranes of your sinuses and lungs. And when the bottle is opened, some of the ammonium hydroxide is immediately off-gassed as ammonia.

So unless you know what you're doing, you can get badly hurt messing with this stuff. Janitorial strength ammonia is much, much safer, though still needs to be handled with caution.

[appellativo]

i wish i could have found the weaker stuff local. I had to leave the room when I first opened it. Now I will only open it outside, with a mask on.

[dkeller_nc]

i wish i could have found the weaker stuff local. I had to leave the room when I first opened it. Now I will only open it outside, with a mask on.

One other comment - if properly fitted, a carbon-based respirator like they sell at home improvement stores will protect you sinuses and lungs, but it doesn't do much for your eyes.

If some wants to by the "janitorial strength" ammonia, you can usually get it at ACE Hardware stores.

[appellativo]

I talked to my Ace harware. He said when you shake the bottle, it foams and doesn't dissipate right away, so that tells me it has surfactants. Maybe at other Ace's they have the right kind, but not mine :(

[dkeller_nc]

Hmm - that's a new one on me. Perhaps Ace has changed the supplier, the previous few bottles I've purchased haven't had any surfactants in it (but I was using it for another purpose - fuming oak for use in furniture).

Honestly, though, ammonium chloride or ammonium sulfate is really inexpensive, very safe to handle (as long as you don't ingest it or have really prolonged skin contact), not considered a shipping hazard (therefore a lot less expensive to ship), and is just as effective as liquid ammonium hydroxide for the purposes of boosting/starting a cycle. So that's what I've recommended in the past when someone has asked this question.

Edit: Apparently I wasn't the only one to come up with ammonium chloride as a substitute for ammonium hydroxide. This is a solution of ammonium chloride specifically sold for aquarium cycling:

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=24530

[eastfernstreet]

As a noob who cycled my very first tank only last fall I am totally confused and frustrated by this thread. Isn't this a case of cooking frozen waffles by first studying for a Ph.D in nuclear engineering then building a personal-sized nuclear reactor to power the toaster instead of just plugging the darn toaster into the wall?

Carbon-filter face masks, janitorial vs. consumer vs. lab strength ammonia (or, rather, ammonium hydroxide), drops per gallon based on concentrations, etc.? Does ACE hardware have what I need? To cycle a tank?

What happened to tossing some flakes in or, for the advanced hobbyist, a piece of shrimp from the LGS? What part am I missing in this discussion?

I sincerely apologize if people think I'm out of line here, but this seemingly hyper-technical, over-braining of what is really a basic, easy to understand element of this wonderful hobby drives me (and others who are new to the hobby, I'll bet) absolutely nuts.

[dkeller_nc]

As a noob who cycled my very first tank only last fall I am totally confused and frustrated by this thread. Isn't this a case of cooking frozen waffles by first studying for a Ph.D in nuclear engineering then building a personal-sized nuclear reactor to power the toaster instead of just plugging the darn toaster into the wall?

Carbon-filter face masks, janitorial vs. consumer vs. lab strength ammonia (or, rather, ammonium hydroxide), drops per gallon based on concentrations, etc.? Does ACE hardware have what I need? To cycle a tank?

What happened to tossing some flakes in or, for the advanced hobbyist, a piece of shrimp from the LGS? What part am I missing in this discussion?

I sincerely apologize if people think I'm out of line here, but this seemingly hyper-technical, over-braining of what is really a basic, easy to understand element of this wonderful hobby drives me (and others who are new to the hobby, I'll bet) absolutely nuts.

No, I think what you're seeing is simply one way out of hundreds to accomplish the same thing. You're quite correct - you can just chop up a raw shrimp from the grocery store and toss it in.

The reason someone might use a non-organic source of ammonia is that it allows maintenance of a specific ammonia concentration in the tank, and thus build a bio-filter of a higher capacity.

The other aspect of this discussion is simply that there's lots of aquarists that don't necessarily want to keep something dirt simple, at least if it appears to provide some degree of benefit over the simple method.

Take a visit to the Lighting, Filtration and Other Equipment forum, or the DIY forum for other "way more complicated than necessary" examples. ;)

[eastfernstreet]

Take a visit to the Lighting, Filtration and Other Equipment forum, or the DIY forum for other "way more complicated than necessary" examples. ;)

I think I'll wait a few more years . . . just keeping my clowns from loving my anemone to death is enough for me.

More power to those of you who have the time, know-how and patience for the more complex undertakings. :thumbsup: