Upgrade Questions

[BlindZide]

OK so I have been pondering what I really wanted to get out of this hobby and I have come to the conclusion that I want to build and keep building. Something to keep me busy and my fingers working hard. I have decided to kill my Gaming hobby and am selling my Gaming Computers. With the money from those I will be purchasing a larger aquarium and better equipment. So this is where you guys come in.

I was aiming for a 75g with 48 1/2"L x 18 1/2"W x 21 1/8"H dimensions. I am currently building a 20g sump off of ideas found on the DIY threads. I was looking into getting the Koralia Smartwave 425 kit that comes with 2 power heads and a smartwave controller for about $121 and then purchasing 2 more powerheads individually. That would be 4 Koralia 425s on a Hydor SmartWave controller.

I am currently seeking ideas for a stand I want to build myself. If anyone can direct me to some mock ups I would greatly appreciate it. Also still skimming about trying to find the right skimmer. I keep hearing how good Reef Octopus' are and thats what I want to get but what model?

If you need any more info or have any ideas or changes I need to make please let me know. Thanks!

[blanden.adam]

For equipment recommendations

Main Tank: All else being equal, I'd get a 90 instead of a 75. They are the same footprint, but the 90 is 3 inches taller, and bigger is better right? (Disclaimer: I have a 75 gallon, but that's all I could talk my wife into. Wish I had a 90)

Sump: The sump is a bit small. I'd wait for a petco dollar per gallon sale and pick up a bigger tank or pick up a used one (40B or a 55 gal if you have the space). Bigger is better with sumps, having the bigger sump (mine's a 40B) is so much better than my smaller sumps in the past. Also, sped the extra money and use glass for baffles. I used acrylic before, and will never do so again after seeing how much better glass is :)

Powerheads: If you are up for a bit of adventure, I'd look into the jebao pumps sold on fish-street.com. I have 2 wp40's on my tank and they are wonderful, and all the flow that tank will ever need (had to turn them down with a variable voltage power supply). They've been getting almost uniformly positive reviews by the many members that have tried them, but because they are a new player to the powerhead game, nobody knows how long the pumps will last, thus the adventure :) But you really wont find anything remotely close to their capabilities at their price point, so I went for it, and you might want to as well.

Skimmer: There are lots of good skimmers out there, of which reef octopus makes several. Don't be cheap on the skimmer, it's the heart of your system. Get one that's rated for a tank that's a bit bigger than yours so you have some headroom, this is called going "plus 1." As for a specific model, it's going to depend largely on the space you have and the budget for the build.

Stand: Just google "DIY tank stand" or peruse the DIY forum on this website and you will get many good ideas. Here is a good place to start: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=1169964.

Good luck with the build! I too love building things, and it is a major part of why I love this hobby!

[BlindZide]

Man a 90g sounds sweet but I can't find one in my area. I was even looking at 100g too but still, none in the area. Largest I can find is 75g at my local petsmart. Now my LFS has a 55g with iron stand for 249 and my other LFS has a 55g with stand for 600. So I was looking into the 75g and building my own stand for around 250.

How hard is it to drill a tank for the sump instead of using a HoB overflow since everytime i read about HoB overflows its usually about a nightmare waiting to happen. As far as a larger sump goes, I can do that. Right now I'm building a 20g sump for my 29g tank. I am still getting into the swing of building things as I am a computer geek not a handy man so this is all new to me. I am using this smaller set up to learn (not harming fishes) the ropes and get the hang of all that is great about this hobby no matter how annoying it may be sometimes.

Thanks!

[KeepNitReel]

Man a 90g sounds sweet but I can't find one in my area. I was even looking at 100g too but still, none in the area. Largest I can find is 75g at my local petsmart. Now my LFS has a 55g with iron stand for 249 and my other LFS has a 55g with stand for 600. So I was looking into the 75g and building my own stand for around 250.

How hard is it to drill a tank for the sump instead of using a HoB overflow since everytime i read about HoB overflows its usually about a nightmare waiting to happen. As far as a larger sump goes, I can do that. Right now I'm building a 20g sump for my 29g tank. I am still getting into the swing of building things as I am a computer geek not a handy man so this is all new to me. I am using this smaller set up to learn (not harming fishes) the ropes and get the hang of all that is great about this hobby no matter how annoying it may be sometimes.

Thanks!

$249 for a 55g with iron stand! Wow, times have changed. I remember paying $75 for the same setup 15 years ago.
No wonder it sold so quick when I listed it on craigslist for $60!

[Gary Majchrzak]

can't find a 90 in BALTIMORE?

Dude... connect with a local reef club. Introduce yourself. You will save yourself a LOT of headaches and perhaps enough money to keep your Xbox.... and maybe even find some reefkeeping gamers!

[Gary Majchrzak]

Northeast Reef Clubs on Reef Central (http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=534)

[KeepNitReel]

can't find a 90 in BALTIMORE?

Dude... connect with a local reef club. Introduce yourself. You will save yourself a LOT of headaches and perhaps enough money to keep your Xbox.... and maybe even find some reefkeeping gamers!

He's right!

Also lfs don't keep much stock & usually order what you want. People will usually order the tank and build the stand, it's much cheaper that way. My lfs sells 75g ($165), 90g ($292), 120g ($450), 125g ($397) tank only.
I'm down here in Richmond VA only 3 hours from you.

[sporto0]

That nightmare waiting to happen, NEVER happens with an HOB overflow, what you will find if you search this site about flooding is that 98% of the time it involves tanks that are drilled & plumbed, I have used HOB overflows exclusively for 18+ years now & not one time ever have I lost siphon or have had a flooded floor, they also take up less tank space than a reef ready corner overflows do, they are far less noisier.....gurgle, gurgle, gurgle & they are quite simple to install & maintain, not to mention the "real risk" you take when drilling glass, you don't get a second chance to do it right.

I built my own stand with oak wood that I obtained for free from iron workers on a local construction site, they use oak to transport the iron on & then just discard it, I did have to clean it up & sand it down & stain it, but it turned out beautifully. The tank is a 90g, the same size stand works for a 75g as well. I lined the top of the stand with heavy duty weather stripping to cushion & dampen vibrations, the tank seats itself perfectly on the stripping. All you need to do is measure the desired tank size & make the top of the stand a 1/4" to a 1/2" bigger all around than the tank itself, pretty simple stuff.

[Gary Majchrzak]

maybe sport confused something... but floodings are MUCH more prone to happen with a hang on overflow... or skimmer... or ANYTHING hangin' off the side of your aquarium.

Side/bottom/corner drilled overflows are much much much safer than hang ons.

There are a couple of hang on overflow designs that are extremely reliable: eshopps, Amiracle, Lifereef among them. I used a Lifereef for 9 years and it never overflowed because of 1) it's design 2)it was set up PROPERLY.

As with anything, do it right or pay the price: both drilled and hang on overflows can malfunction if set up improperly.

[sporto0]

I'm not confused at all & how could you possibly claim drilled tanks are much, much, SAFER? I challenge you to search this forum for flood related threads & then tell me which style caused more problems, I am not looking for a whizzing contest here, but I am fed up with some MYTHS that get perpetuated here & HOB overflows get a bad rap, which is unfounded & yes I do use Eshopps overflow boxes & yes, I agree anything put together incorrectly can be an issue.

[BlindZide]

Hmm, I was going to make a trip to both of my salt LFS today to see what they had gotten in plus to get some salt. I didn't know they would order a tank for me and again thats me not thinking.

I am keeping my Xbox, but its my wifes Xbox not mine. I have the PS3. I'm getting rid of my $2000 computer and selling it for $1500 OBO.

As far as overflows are concerned I believe the HoB will be cheaper in the long run with the amount of supplies I will need to do the job of drilling the tank. As I stated before I am not a handy man and I am bound to screw something up and shattering a tank would be bad, REAL bad.

As for the stand I was going to build a 90"L x 25"W x 48"H with double reinforced supports. I am also thinking about doing a continuous stand all around my basement to add more tanks. I guess I can add to it as I go if need be.

[blanden.adam]

I'm not confused at all & how could you possibly claim drilled tanks are much, much, SAFER? I challenge you to search this forum for flood related threads & then tell me which style caused more problems, I am not looking for a whizzing contest here, but I am fed up with some MYTHS that get perpetuated here & HOB overflows get a bad rap, which is unfounded & yes I do use Eshopps overflow boxes & yes, I agree anything put together incorrectly can be an issue.

I'm going to have to respectfully disagree. Have you perhaps considered that drilled tanks are much more common than HOB overflows? Even if you are correct that there are more threads regarding problems with drilled overflows than HOB overflows (which I really don't believe, but admittedly I'm not going to spend the time to find out because the result doesn't mean anything), that doesn't mean either HOB or drilled overflows are safer. You have to have prevalence data to make that kind of conclusion based on population data.

I also don't understand how you can say that HOB overflows are safer than drilled ones when HOB overflows are subject to every problem that would cause a flood a drilled overflow would, plus it has to maintain a siphon. Extra point of failure means more prone to failure.

OP, drilling a tank can be intimidating, and if you are worried about it you can either buy a reef ready tank, or a local fish store will usually do it for a small fee if you want to with a drilled tank. There are some good HOB overflows, but drilled overflows are safer, quieter, and pretty much better in every way relative to a HOB overflow with the exception that HOB overflows can easily be added to an already running tank and can be used in tanks with tempered glass. This is not a myth that has been perpetuated, it's a widely held truth because so many people have found it to be true. Personally, I would never use a HOB overflow when drilling is an option.

[KeepNitReel]

Glass. Holes. has a complete overflow kit, overflow box, bulkheads, 90 elbow, drill bit & template included. 1500gph kit is $99, about the same as what a hob would cost you, if you decided to go that route ;)

[BlindZide]

Glass. Holes. has a complete overflow kit, overflow box, bulkheads, 90 elbow, drill bit & template included. 1500gph kit is $99, about the same as what a hob would cost you, if you decided to go that route ;)

Ah....I have heard about them. I will ask my LFS about drilling when I go there today.

[Gary Majchrzak]

I'm not confused at all & how could you possibly claim drilled tanks are much, much, SAFER? :facepalm:

easily.
for starters: gravity.
*assuming both designs are "correct"*
If water isn't designed to go up and over the side of an aquarium IT NEVER DOES.
I really don't have time to debate this one- they just don't pay me enough bananas.
I would strongly suggest that people considering HOT vs. drilled overflows to research the subject thoroughly.

[Gary Majchrzak]

As far as overflows are concerned I believe the HoB will be cheaper in the long runno doubt about it.

The good news is that saltwater doesn't cause mold when it soaks the floorboards!

Dood- find a local club ;)

[KeepNitReel]

Ah....I have heard about them. I will ask my LFS about drilling when I go there today.

LFS in my area charge way to much for drilling. One charges $25 per hole & the one closest to me charges $35 per hole. That doesn't even include the overflow box :eek:

[blanden.adam]

eh, 25 bucks a hole isn't horrible. They're taking all the risk if they break your tank afterall. 35 is a bit much though.

[KeepNitReel]

A 1-1/2 drill bit is $16, I can drill at least 10 holes before it begins to dull. Breaking your tank is pretty hard to do. The only way I see breaking the tank is if you tried to drill tempered glass or you didn't use water to cool the bit.

Now drilling the wrong spot is a completely different story

[BlindZide]

LFS said they would order me a tank for $149 and that includes shipping. Thanks for heads up on that. As far as drilling goes they don't drill their own tanks so they wont drill mine. I'm still waiting on the other LFS to respond. If it comes down to it I can have my father in law do it. He is pretty handy.

One thing is for sure my LFS isn't totally out to get all my money. They suggested the 75g over the 90g due to height. +1 to them!

Thanks for all of your input guys and/or gals!

[sporto0]

:facepalm:

easily.
for starters: gravity.
*assuming both designs are "correct"*
If water isn't designed to go up and over the side of an aquarium IT NEVER DOES.
I really don't have time to debate this one- they just don't pay me enough bananas.
I would strongly suggest that people considering HOT vs. drilled overflows to research the subject thoroughly.

That does explain how it is safer, gravity is part of a siphon, & even if the siphon is broken, that will still not cause a flood, I could say the same thing about putting a hole into glass, weakens the structural integrity, every joint, bulk head & seal is a leak waiting to happen, so don't make a blanket statement & not expect a debate & I agree wholeheartedly, please research the topic of HOB overflows vs. drilled & plumbed tanks before you make a decision, you might be surprised at what you find.


Siphons operate by atmospheric pressure. The container from which the liquid is siphoned must therefore be open to the air. When the tube is filled, the liquid will run out of the lower end. (The greater weight of the liquid in the arm outside the container determines the direction of flow of the liquid.) As the liquid starts to flow, the fluid pressure at the top of the tube is lowered. A liquid always flows from an area under higher pressure to an area of lower pressure. The liquid in the container (under atmospheric pressure) flows up into the tube (an area of lowered pressure). This liquid in turn will flow out the outside end of the tube, again lowering the pressure at the top of the tube.

Once the flow has begun, it will continue if undisturbed as long as the inside end of the tube remains below the surface of the liquid. The flow can be cut off by raising the outside end of the tube above the level of the surface of the liquid in the container.

[sporto0]

no doubt about it.

The good news is that saltwater doesn't cause mold when it soaks the floorboards!

Dood- find a local club ;)

I find this comment condescending & irresponsible, you don't want a real discussion, you just want people to take your word as if it were the be all & end all, well sorry guy, you are mistaken. Good day to you sir.

[BlindZide]

Lets keep it cool guys. Arguing this is like arguing that Ford makes better trucks than Chevy. Everyone has their opinion and this is what forums are for. Expressing and educating. I have found everyone on here to be helpful in a way and being helpful is what matters.

[KeepNitReel]

LFS said they would order me a tank for $149 and that includes shipping. Thanks for heads up on that. As far as drilling goes they don't drill their own tanks so they wont drill mine. I'm still waiting on the other LFS to respond. If it comes down to it I can have my father in law do it. He is pretty handy.

One thing is for sure my LFS isn't totally out to get all my money. They suggested the 75g over the 90g due to height. +1 to them!

Thanks for all of your input guys and/or gals!

So wait, what size tank are you getting for $149?


Edit: never mind, my brain kicked in :D

[FishysPlace]

You sound like a descent DIY person. I'd say don't be afraid to drill a standard 75g! I bought my 75g online at Craig's.... And paid $80 for it. I was afraid of drilling the tank at first and paid the LFS $40 for 2 holes. I later decided I needed a third so I could do a Herbie style of overflow and bought a diamond coated bit online at BRS. I used painters tape on the inside of the tank to catch the piece I cut out and used an old rag (folded over until thick.) It was very easy. I had my wife hold the garden hose while I let the bit grind away at the tank. Used no pressure other then the weight of the drill itself.
I also built my own stand. Just used the foot print of the tank and 1" so there would be a 1/2" edge around it. I have pics on my newbie thread of you want to check it out.
If you have any doubt or questions just look and ask here on RC and someone will give you an idea of what has/has not worked for them!
Happy reefing!

[blanden.adam]

That does explain how it is safer, gravity is part of a siphon, & even if the siphon is broken, that will still not cause a flood, I could say the same thing about putting a hole into glass, weakens the structural integrity, every joint, bulk head & seal is a leak waiting to happen, so don't make a blanket statement & not expect a debate & I agree wholeheartedly, please research the topic of HOB overflows vs. drilled & plumbed tanks before you make a decision, you might be surprised at what you find.


Siphons operate by atmospheric pressure. The container from which the liquid is siphoned must therefore be open to the air. When the tube is filled, the liquid will run out of the lower end. (The greater weight of the liquid in the arm outside the container determines the direction of flow of the liquid.) As the liquid starts to flow, the fluid pressure at the top of the tube is lowered. A liquid always flows from an area under higher pressure to an area of lower pressure. The liquid in the container (under atmospheric pressure) flows up into the tube (an area of lowered pressure). This liquid in turn will flow out the outside end of the tube, again lowering the pressure at the top of the tube.

Once the flow has begun, it will continue if undisturbed as long as the inside end of the tube remains below the surface of the liquid. The flow can be cut off by raising the outside end of the tube above the level of the surface of the liquid in the container.

This is not how the siphons we are talking about work. You are correct that siphons work via pressure differences, but it has little to do with atmospheric pressure -- this just happens to be the baseline pressure on the "reservoirs" of water because we live in, well, the atmosphere. In fact, if siphons did work via atmospheric pressure, then a siphon actually would be impossible because the lower of the two reservoirs has a higher atmospheric pressure due to its lower location (larger air column on top of it).

Once a siphon is started, gravity pulls the water (or any other liquid) in the longer arm (going into the lower reservoir), causing a reduced pressure at the top of the siphon, kind of like the effect seen with drinking from a straw except instead of you actively sucking, gravity does it for you. Because of this, the pressure at the top of the tube is lower than atmospheric (recall, gravity is "pulling" on the column of water in the longer tube, giving you a kind of suction), so fluid flows up the tube. The pressure doesn't have to be atmospheric, it could be any pressure.

With regard to starting a siphon, you're really off base. It's not that the liquid starts to flow so the pressure at the top of the tube starts dropping. It's quite the opposite. YOU actively lower the pressure in the tube (by sucking) or pump the water against the higher pressure (caused by gravity) until it has reached a point on the "longer" arm such that the gravitational force on the fluid overcomes the gravitational force on the fluid in the shorter arm. After that, the energy to maintain the siphon comes from gravity.

Now for the issue of breaking a siphon. Getting air, or anything else really, in the siphon can break it. The key factor is going to be if the force of gravity in the long arm of the siphon can provide enough "suction" to pull the liquid up from the higher reservoir through the shorter arm. It will not necessarily continue as long as it is submerged.

Also, your argument about drilling a tank doesn't show superiority of HOB over drilled boxes. Sure, every bulkhead and joint is a point a leak can happen, but overflow boxes also use bulkheads and joints to attach to plumbing. All you've done is added another point of failure, the siphon. And yes, if the siphon fails, you will have a flood unless of course you have enough reserve volume in your tank to accommodate the entire volume of your return chamber before your return pump runs dry or you have a float switch in the tank to shut off the return pump before the tank overflows -- but then again the same is true for drilled overflows.

I must ask, what is a clump of algae more likely to clog -- A 1.5" pipe (or multiples thereof on larger tanks), or a HOB siphon tube? When you consider that the appropriate design of drilled standpipes takes into account 100% redundancy for flow, and only relies on gravity for flow to occur (rather than gravity, AND a siphon), it's clear that drilled tanks are safer. Again, not to say that a HOB option is not safe, just not the safest option.

[sporto0]

HUH? Nice try, 18+ years, NEVER EVER lost a siphon, NEVER EVER, EVER, EVER, had a clump of algae clog the tube LMFAO, & what a stretch on the overflow box itself having any type of joint or seal to leak, NOT EVEN CLOSE & your DEAD wrong about the siphon, it is exactly how I described, & saying "gravity" has anything to do with what is safer is RIDICULOUS. Here's the ONLY difference in the 2 systems....Aesthetic, or more pleasing to the eye, PERIOD, there is zero evidence to back up the erroneous statement that a drilled tank is safer from flooding than an HOB overflow PERIOD! Again nice try, EPIC FAIL.

[blanden.adam]

Siphons do not work as you've described, and your willful ignorance is silly. If HOB overflows don't have joints or bulkheads, than how would you propose to attach them to plumbing? (please note the bulkheads in your own eshopps overflow box: http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=18358&ref=4032&subref=AA&cmpid=PPC-G-4032)

And you seem to have changed your tune with regard to HOB being better than drilled (directly in conflict with 99% of the reefing world), to being just an aesthetic difference. Why the change sir? It's all to clear you have no clue what you are talking and you are more interested in being aggravating than doing something constructive. The length of time you've had success with it is irrelevant outside of simply saying "it's worked for me" -- in principle it's just physics, which you apparently do not understand.

[KeepNitReel]

You guys don't know when to stop. Why don't y'all PM each other with your BS instead of messing up the thread

[blanden.adam]

You're right KeepNitReel, I'm sorry. Completely threadjacked and for no good reason. Again, sorry.