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View Full Version : Alk keeps dropping.. Want to pull my hair out.


fairladyZ
05/26/2013, 03:40 PM
Sorry for the long thread but i'm going to try to be as detailed as possible to try to get to the bottom of this.

So i had a thread in the New to the Hobby section about battling low Ph and Alk. Got some good advice in there and was pointed to the reefkeeping article and a recipe to increase Ph and Alk, I baked baking soda and added 4 oz's every night 2oz at a time to the highest flowing spot in my sump, well i can bring the Ph and the alk up slowly, but as soon as i stop alk drops right back down.

A little back story and info on the tank. it's a 90 gallon drilled with 40 gal sump that is about half full, It has 100lbs of sand 20 of which was live, it has about 80lbs or live rock with about 20 of it being live at the time. Tank has been up and going for just over 2 months, it cycled in the first week and i added a cleanup crew. Started with 5 hermits, emerald crab, and a turbo snail. Since i've added about another 12 hermits, another emerald crab, 3 peppermint shrimp, 6 nassarius snails, 4 astrea snails. Hithhikers i've seen are a handful of bristleworms, a peanute worm, a couple stomatella snails, astrenia starfish, 1000+ pods. I have about 8 heads of eagle eye zoa, 1 head yuma ricordia, 1 head watermelon mushroom. In the refugium i have a handful of algae that i got form the LFS i think it mainly consits of Calupra with some chaeto aswell.

Equipment in the tank is 2 hydor koralia 1500's, 2 aqueon heaters, vertex in-100 skimmer, via aqua 3600 return pump, zoomed reef/sun light on 24/7 over the refugium, Apex light, ATO built with autotopoff floats using apex, Current 4' t5HO fixture 2 whites, and 2 atinics, exoxotic blue stunner strip.

Started the tank with LFS salt mix water with their RO/DI machine. Went about a month with just them testing my water. After the initial cycle after the first week i got a diatom bloom which lasted about a 1.5 weeks and then it subsided, I then got a decent GHA outbreak that lasted about 3 weeks and has now passed, Now i am having issues with Cyano popping up on the sand at first but has now started spreading onto the rocks. I went the first 1.5 months without doing a water change as advised by LFS. After i installed the apex and PH probe and got it calibrated it was brought to my attention on here that my Ph was to low at 7.6 So i began aerating the room the tank is in by leaving windows open, putting a fan in the room and opening the glass tops the tank came with. The current light sits on the glass tops so i cant' remove them all the way so i just open them up, i've tried to aim the powerheads up to the surface to agitate but it seem the cyano gets worse without the powerheads pointed down. I don't have an air pump so i can't test a cup of water outside but with how aerated the room is now as i leave the window open 24/7 aswell as the stand open so the sump can breath with a fan in the stand blowing onto the water too. I stated doing 10 gallon water changes just to replace some of the 1.5month old water in the tank, I purchased red sea coral pro salt and mix it to 1.025. After running baked baking soda for a week by adding 2 oz at a time 4 oz's a day i got Ph to about 8.2 and once i stopped Ph will level out around 7.9 at night and up to around 8.08 at high point of day. I did 3 weekends in a row of water changes and Ph would stay the same and so would alk, by the end of the week my alk would be down to about 5.8dKH. I would dose the baking soda and get it back up to around 8 then do a water change. So finally i decided i would do a big water change this weekend. Stated the week with alk around 5.8 and after dosing thru the week got it to about 7.8 again and did the water change yesterday, I replaced 25 gallons of water. 20 minutes after the water change i tested alk and it came out to about 9.3dKH. Ph was at 8.14 I thought perfect right where i want it so i can setup my ATO with a 5 gallon jug i had made the night before with 3 teaspoons of kalkwasser in it, figured i would start light on the kalk, my aqualifter pump kicks on about every hour for about 1 minute to top off my sump with the kalkwasser, during NONE of that time would my Ph rise or notice any changes. So this morning right around 20 hours after the water change i check alk again and it's already down to about 8.5dKH, so i immediately switch the 5 gallon jug for another i had that i made up lastnight that had 5 teaspoons of kalk in it hoping that can stop the decline.

I did check the red sea salt when i made my first batch and everything was on target with what is advertised, i didn't have a mag test kit then so wasn't sure on that. Since i have purchased a red sea mag pro test kit and tested my tank earlier this week and it was 1480.

Last i tested my tank for everything was as follows.

Ph 8.11
Temp 78.1
Salinity 1.025
Nitrate 0
ammonia 0
nitrite 0
phosphate .1
calcium 420
magnesium 1480
alk dKH (tested earlier today)

All the other tests were earlier this week. Using the API test kits except magnesium and alk i have red sea pro, alk i do use the API test just to get close to what it is, if i need exact numbers on alk i'll use the red sea kit.

So i don't have a high demand for alk in my tank as i have almost 0 liverstock, i don't have any coraline, and only thing growing in the tank that i don't want is cyano. I'm at a loss.

Again sorry for the novel but figured i would try to post the most info i can. Hopefully someone can give me an idea or what to do to stop my alk dropping off at such a rapid rate.

bertoni
05/26/2013, 04:45 PM
I would start by measuring the alkalinity every day at the same time, and then dosing the tank back up to some target level, like 8.5 dKH. If you do these for a while, maybe a week, you should get a good trend line on how much alkalinity is being consumed per day. I'm not sure where it's going at this point, but I wouldn't worry about that just yet. Many tanks consumed 2-3 dKH per day without any stony corals at all. My 29g systems did.

The phosphate level is very high, which likely is driving the cyanobacterial blooms.

The pH seems to be ranging withing the 7.9-8.1 or so range, from what I understand. Those levels are fine and normal for a tank in a house.

bertoni
05/26/2013, 04:47 PM
Oops, meant to post this link:

http://reef.diesyst.com/chemcalc/chemcalc.html

That calculator will help with picking a dose. It requires a guess as to the actual amount of water in the tank, so I'd be conservative with the doses until you get them dialed in a bit.

fairladyZ
05/26/2013, 05:25 PM
thanks for the response, i suppose that the tank could just be a natural at consuming alk. I usually try to test everyday at 6pm, about an hour before the white's go out. Just to get a range of how fast and how far it's dropping. PH stays pretty stable but will usually drop down to around 7.9 at night a couple days after i stop dosing baking soda, if i stay on baking soda it never drops below 8.0.

Lastnight on the light mix of kalk the lowest it got was 8.09 and today it's been kinda all over the place but it's at 8.19 right now, seem to go up a couple point then drop back down then go up and drop down. so it was at 8.19 then dropped to 8.17 now about 20 minutes later it's back to 8.19. Not sure if it's the little bit stronger mixture of kalk that's causing this or not. I'll test alk again in a little bit to see if it's changed.

I do have some red sea reef foundation B to raise alkalinity should i just pour a cap full of that into the sump to slowly raise alk back up a little bit? or leave it where it's at and just try to get it to become stable there?

As far as the phosphates go i'm not sure if it's actually .1, The API kit is hard to read and it jumps from 0 to .25 and it's hard to tell where i fall inbetween that so i just guess at .1 and honestly that's probably a high guess. The LFS sells the seachem phosguard that are in pouches and i talked to them about it once before and they said just throw the pouch in my sump, would that be a good route to go to eliminate the phosphate?

bertoni
05/26/2013, 06:04 PM
The baking soda is fine for dosing alkalinity. I'd stop measuring the pH for a while, since those numbers are all fine and normal. You can drive yourself crazy watching the pH.

I would avoid the PhosGuard, since it sometimes causes problems for soft corals, but a GFO product like PhosBan should help with the phosphate. Either product would work better in a reactor or a small power filter, but a bag in the sump might be okay. That's hard to predict.

fairladyZ
05/26/2013, 06:12 PM
so you'd advise to dose baking soda to get alk back up over dosing the red sea foundation b? just to get it back up to target level then try to get kalk to keep it stable correct?

Ya i searched earlier and couldn't find much on phosguard but did read that it can cause issues with corals, I'm still learning and don't know much about GFO or reactors, As far as i can tell would be to get a reactor and put in phosban and hook a pump that pumps sump water thru it then back into the sump correct?

bertoni
05/26/2013, 06:39 PM
Either baking soda or the Red Sea should be fine. I don't think it much matters.

Kalk might be able to keep the alkalinity stable. You can try up to 2 tsp per gallon to see. I'd leave the Kalk as is until this experiment is over, though.

Yes, that's the basic idea for a reactor setup. I suspect it'd be worth the investment, but that's hard to predict.

fairladyZ
05/26/2013, 06:53 PM
so i just tested with the red sea pro kit. Alk is at 8.4dKH i'll leave everything alone for now and test again tomorrow to see where it's at, if it continues to drop then i'll dose either baking soda or reef foundation to get it back up and then bump up the strength of the kalk. In the meantime i'll look into the reactor.

So just browsing BRS and watching their videos for my 90 gallon would a BRS Deluxe reactor work good? and would it be worth it to run gfo and carbon in a single deluxe reactor or would carbon be a waste of time? I don't run filter socks or anything and water looks clear as it is. not sure what other advantages carbon has

bertoni
05/26/2013, 07:13 PM
I haven't used the BRS reactors. I used the PhosBan reactor, which was okay, but my tanks were only 29g. I don't know how much media your tank will require.

Carbon can bind various toxins and might help with clarity over time. I thought it was a good safety net to have, personally.

fairladyZ
05/26/2013, 07:23 PM
awesome thanks for all the input.. i'll update with the changes over the next couple days.

fairladyZ
05/27/2013, 10:16 AM
i guess a little bit of an update/problem. I went into the room lastnight and unplugged the cat5 cable from the apex as i needed to use it on another device for an hour, after that time passed i went to plug cable back in and the Ph was at 8.5, walked out of the room and back into the room and it was at 8.75. I immediately turned off the ATO and checked the logs, The ATO had run last for just over 1.5 minutes just 30 minutes prior to the initial spike from 8.2 to 8.5. Looking at the graph it was consistent all thoughout the day when the ATO would kick on PH wouldn't change. I tested the PH with the api test kit but PH is so hard to read on that thing. I believe it was in the 8.3 range on the api but to hard to tell, i tested the water in my QT tank as it doesn't get anything but topped off with ro/di and it was a little lower in color but pretty close to what DT was. So i believe the spike is a just a faulty reading from the Ph probe, i'll be cleaning and re-calibrating it today to make sure.

I tested with API kit again this morning and it seems to be around 8.2 with the color but who knows with those shades. Apex is reading 8.39 right now and it's bouncing up and down, it's slowly been coming down all night, but now with the bouncing it's going up then down. I left the ATO off all night but turned it back on this morning since i can keep an eye on it. Everyone in the tank was active lastnight and didn't seem bothered by anything so thats good.

bertoni
05/27/2013, 03:34 PM
If the reading is bouncing visibly as you watch it, there's likely some sort of electrical interference problem. You could check that by unplugging the electrical equipment a piece at a time or so, and see whether any specific device is causing the problem.

I'd be cautious about trusting pH meters too much. They are prone to various issues, including cleaning, calibration, and electrical interference.

fairladyZ
05/27/2013, 07:05 PM
ya i'm not sure what the deal with it is, i soaked it in some vinegar but dont have any calibration fluid to recalibrate but will get some tomorrow. after soaking it it dropped down to about 8.3 and has been sitting there, it drops to 8.21 a couple times then goes back up to 8.34 right now. It doesn't bounce around while i'm watching it it's just like every 10 minutes it's either higher or lower, i haven't changed anything from when it was working before other then unplugged the cat5 cable and then plugged it back in. I have the API kit but the colors are hard to read on it.

As far as alk i tested it again a couple minutes ago and it dropped down a little but not as much as the night before, it dropped down to about 7.9-8. For not dosing kalk all night i guess thats not to terrible.

bertoni
05/28/2013, 02:19 AM
That sounds like electrical interference to me.

fairladyZ
05/28/2013, 09:23 PM
ok so an update.

I got calibration fluid today, so i pulled the probe completely out and unplugged it, soaked it in vinegar again and re ran the cord and tried to get it away from most other cords, i calibrated it, tested it 4 times in each packet. For 7.00 solution it would settle at 6.97 and hold, for 10 solution it woudl settle at about 9.98.

Put the probe back in the tank and let it settle down and it's currently sitting at 7.93, it was originally at 8.09 as soon as i put it back in but it's slowly been going down steady. after i first put it in it seemed low so i pulled it back out and dipped it back into the packet of 7.0 and 10 and it still read the same as before.

I tested the alk and it's at about 7.4ish, so i think it's safe to say it's dropping about .5 a day, still got 1 teaspong per gallon of kalk in my 5 gallon jug that is about halfway down now, i have another jug that has about 1.5 teaspoons of kalk per gallon in it that i may switch out tomorrow.

On a good not i got my new MP40 today and installed it aswell, i love it so far. So i got 2 hydor 1400gph and the mp40 running at right around 50% and the cyano is already getting ripped up and rolled up! i like it!

bertoni
05/28/2013, 11:55 PM
Okay, those calibration levels should be fine. We'll see how the pH shapes up, I guess. :)

Rbs07fxstc
05/29/2013, 10:33 AM
If your ATO line is near your probes then that could be throwing your ph. Whenever I add fesh to my sump, it will bounce my ph around until its mixed in good.

fairladyZ
05/29/2013, 08:14 PM
Well PH has been very smooth all day and night long, got down to 7.76 last night and got up to 7.86 today and just been sitting in that range, gradual all the way up and down.
Alk is sitting at about 7.2 so not as big a drop from yesterday. Other than the cyano everything seem to be happy. wish the PH was higher but oh well aslong as it stays around 7.8 at night i guess.

First top off jug is almost gone so i'll switch to a hair stronger mix in the next day probably. Then i'll try to get alk back up above 8 and get it to hold there.

fairladyZ
05/29/2013, 08:14 PM
If your ATO line is near your probes then that could be throwing your ph. Whenever I add fesh to my sump, it will bounce my ph around until its mixed in good.

Probe is in my overflow and ATO is in my sump so no way for direct contact.