home from vacation...all fish dead..please help where to go from here

[Fish_King_25]

Hey guys,

I will try and keep it short and sweet so there isn't a ton of things to read through. I spent the last 8 days in Punta Cana and touched down into the US this evening. I received a phone call when I landed from my dad saying that he didn't want to tell me over the phone..but all my fish were dead, and my coral "isn't looking too good." NOW, I will give you the basics...My dad knows NOTHING about fish or anything, he was only to feed my fish flake I provided him with, and that was all. I have yet to reach home and actually see the damages myself, and I won't be able to to so until mid afternoon tomorrow. What he told me was that my HOB refugium light shorted out, causing some type of overflow from either my HOB fuge or my HOB skimmer, which soaked my powerstrip, started a small fire, and thank god someone was home and smelled it before it got too bad, because my house could be ashes. I lost 3 fish, and all of my corals are closed up according to my dad. Two starfish and peppermint shrimp appear to still be alive. My dad told me tank temperature was 74 which he didn't know was low, so I had him turn the heater up and try and get it to 80. My reasons for typing this out now are..

1. To vent my sadness and frustrations most importantly :(
2. To ask what you may think have happened, or why my fish died?
3. To ask what my next couple of moves should be moving forward.

I have spent the last 6 months getting my water quality to be absolutely great ( I have been so proud at the rate of growth of corals, and how clear and excellent my readings have been.) I JUST siphoned the last of my sandbed out before I left, and have two brand new bags of sand in my house waiting to put into the tank. (sandbed was about 9 years old, and I was LONG overdue.) So right now I have nothing except inverts and coral in my tank, no sadbed, and no light for my HOB refugium which means 6 days of no light for my chaeto ball, so I would have to bet that is gone as well.

If anyone could provide me with any direction at all to get things going in the right direction from here, please don't hesitate, anything at all would be benefical to read I assure you.

Thanks in advance for reading everyone.

Ken

[Crusinjimbo]

It must be a fail safe as possible. Mock failure-test each element of a system and crank in redundancy when a failure in any part won't result in catastrophic loss and damage. Things like light hangers and HOB anything are high risk IME. I feel your pain but don't give up!

[Breadman03]

1. That really stinks.

2. Your losses are probably directly related to the equipment failure and fire.

3. Pull out the dead livestock. I would start doing water changes and running some carbon to get rid of any nasties from the fire.

3.1. Start fail proofing your equipment. One thing we should all do is to keep all of our plugs where spilling water cannot reach and to employ the use of drip loops.

[Fizz71]

Sorry for your loss. Your fish probably died because of a lack of O2. Once the powerheads stop rippling the water and moving it around the coral and fish will deplete the O2 fast. I know of an AWESOME tank that died over night (it was talked about in a seminar). They were doing maintenance and left the circulation off for the night..there was SOOO much life in the tank that the O2 was depleted and things started dying withing hours.

I don't think there is really anything for you to do at this point that isn't obvious...get the dead fish out, get the water moving and heated and test for ammonia and nitrate to make a decision on whether or not a massive water change is needed.

Good luck.

[MrClam]

Sorry to hear that. I fear that scenario every time I go on vacation. Don't beat urself up, its hard to prepare for everything. I would say learn from this and fix things so they are more foolproof going forward.

[HumbleFish]

Sorry to hear this (it's my worst fear as well every time I'm away from home for a prolonged period)..

As mention above, once your powerheads stopped, it was only a matter of time. Do you know how long the tank has been without power? Then again, you said you had your dad turn up the heater... so, did the tank lose power or not?

Btw, don't forget to console your dad when you get home and reassure him this wasn't his fault (even if it was). He probably feels terrible right now.

[PatW]

First off consider the positives. It probably does not look at all positive.

However, in your first attempt, you achieved good water parameters. Younhad healthy corals. Your fish were fine and healthy.

So you have had a fair number of successes.

It looks to me that your system needed your supervision and maintenance.

I would think that with some thought and redesign, you can modify your system to be able to run for some time in your absence.

[Sk8r]

When you get home, run water, condition it (assuming you need more than your ro/di can provide fast) and create salt water. Into this clean salt water, move everything still alive.

step 2. your tank now just has to digest the dead bioload. Let it do that. It may cycle again. YOu can clean out anything you can reach, but otherwise, just let it do as it has to do, and it's got a bit to handle. The cycle could come in as little as 5 days depending on how badly it was hit. The 74 degree temperature won't hurt it at all, but warm it to 80 during its recovery. You might also lay hands on a product called PolyFilter, which will remove any chemical residue, esp. metals, that may have gotten into the tank when things went haywire. A small square of that inserted into the water flow will turn colors if it's absorbing metals...the good news is, it absorbs metals.


Meanwhile just take care of your survivors.

A GFI electrical receptacle is a must on tank circuits for this sort of reason; and a water-alarm on the floor isn't a bad investment either, about 8.00 from Amazon. Thank goodness the fire did get dealt with. HOBs are usually overflow-proof, but there are exceptional situations.

Most of us who've been in the hobby a few years have had a heartbreak or two but I'm sorry yours has come so early. What you learn will make your next set up more resilient and safer, so everything is progress.

[Fish_King_25]

I would first like to say thank you to all who took the time to read and share their input and advice with me. I do really appreciate all of that.

I got home today and took a look at everything, and I am very disappointed to say that what I may have thought killed my fish was not the case. My current update is..

All fish were indeed lost along with my peppermint shrimp, and a bunch of snails as well. The current survivors are both my serpent star and sand sifting star, and about 8 trochus snails as well. All of my coral however DOES appear to be okay, and will probably pull through without suffering any time of losses with any coral (I hope.)

I walked into my room and saw A BUNCH of pellet food settled all over my rockwork, bottom, everywhere. No one in my house will own up to who did it, but it is so so so clear that my food container was spilled into my tank, and literally a PILE of food was left inside my tank for who knows how long. No one will admit it was them, and I will never know what actually happened, but this is definitely the issue.

both my main light and my HOB fuge light appear fine, no shorts, no damage like I was originally informed, so that was a plus to come home and find out. The only outstanding equipment issue I am in need of is WHY my protein skimmer overflowed and got my powerstrip soaked. (this happened about A month ago to me while I was in my room for NO reason that I could find, and I was immediately (within seconds) able to take care of everything and no damage was caused. Any clue as to what the hell is up with this Skimmer?

All in all, the most tragic part for me was pulling my 10+ y/o clownfish out that I've had since the day I've got this tank about 10 years ago. He was my first fish ever, and has been moved to 4 different locations and always hung tough and stayed alive, and it is such a shame to see him gone.

Staying positive,

I have done a 7 gallon WC (all the RO I had in the house) and I finally got every last spec of sand up and out of the bottom. Currently, I have two piles of rocks, and a glass tank with water in it, and I am not sure if adding the sand right away is better or worse, and what I should do now. I am going to do a water test tomorrow and see where everything lies, and give the tank a few days to possibly cycle and keep testing and seeing what is what.

I am trying to stay positive and tell myself that this is an unfortunate opportunity to start with all fresh sand, fresh water params and a new stock list of fish to add, and I am trying to look forward positively.
I will keep this thread updated and again if anyone has anything to add please do! Thanks again everyone!

[HumbleFish]

The only outstanding equipment issue I am in need of is WHY my protein skimmer overflowed and got my powerstrip soaked. (this happened about A month ago to me while I was in my room for NO reason that I could find, and I was immediately (within seconds) able to take care of everything and no damage was caused. Any clue as to what the hell is up with this Skimmer?

A skimmer will go nuts anytime something dies or way too much nutrients is in the water (i.e. from the pellets).

[Fish_King_25]

Hmm..I wonder what could have caused the overflow I had a month ago..but this one definitely could be explained by the pellets then for sure...I'm currently tossing the idea of a 10g sump with my HOB skimmer in there under the DT, but I've got no clue what I'm up against with a sump..I've never ran one

[HumbleFish]

Hmm..I wonder what could have caused the overflow I had a month ago..but this one definitely could be explained by the pellets then for sure...I'm currently tossing the idea of a 10g sump with my HOB skimmer in there under the DT, but I've got no clue what I'm up against with a sump..I've never ran one

Look at post #3 and #8 from this thread (http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2027896). Basically, you drill a small hole into your skimmer cup (it probably already has one), and then run tubing into a milk jug or container. Works great for when you go on vacation or just don't trust your skimmer LOL

[tallball158]

Btw, don't forget to console your dad when you get home and reassure him this wasn't his fault (even if it was). He probably feels terrible right now.

+1, yeah he probably feels like crap. Im so sorry for your losses tho, I know that's got to suck

[thegrun]

As a word of warning you need to have your power strips set up in a location where they are not subject to salt spray or water from any equipment malfunction. Failure to comply could well start a fire the next time you have an accident. You should also have all your power plugged into GFIC outlets to minimize the risk of shock or even electrocution. Saltwater and electricity do not get along well with each other. I'm sorry for your losses but things could have been much worse, please be careful!

[Fish_King_25]

Thanks again! What could be the issue if my skimmer isoverflowing from the other chamber, not the skim cup? What does/could that mean??

[ca1ore]

I got so sick of overflowing skimmers that I would never again use one that isn't completely contained in the sump. Also, personally, I would never route the skimmate cup to an external container - even one that is ostensibly overflow proof.

[dkeller_nc]

A couple of thoughts -

A sump makes everything easier and more failure-resistant. Their only downside is the extra space and the small amount of extra power that will be required to pump water the extra height distance.

I would be extremely cautious about putting a skimmer cup drain into your system if you're going to be away often. If you've a skimmer in a sump, and it overflows, it's usually not too big of a deal. But if the skimmer overflows and you have a skimmer cup drain, most of the water volume of the tank can go out of this innocent little hole, which is guaranteed to kill everything in your tank and probably destroy all of your pumps to boot.

The way to avoid a situation like this is to carefully measure out the amount of food that you wish a tank-sitter to add in little ziplocks. Non-fish people do not understand that this is not like feeding a cat while the owner is away, and adding more food will kill everything in the tank.

In my particular case, I simply don't feed the tank when I'm away for less than 7 days. The animals will get along just fine for this time period, and having a non-fish person add food is far more dangerous than not feeding.

A thought about your electrical situation - in addition to hanging your strips where it is physically impossible for water to get to them, it's important that they be metal outlet strips, not the elcheapo plastic ones. Over time, salt and humidity will corrode the receptacles and the plugs in the receptacles in any power strip. The buildup of this corrosion layer will cause a dramatic rise in the electrical resistance, which will make the plug/receptacle very hot.

If the outlet strip is all-metal, then there is very, very little risk of a fire. But if the outlet strip is plastic, then those very hot receptacles/plugs can easily melt the plastic and ignite it.

And - this is unpopular, but I intentionally don't have GFCI of any sort on my reef tanks. The reason is that GFCIs, especially the consumer-grade ones, have a bad habit of tripping from voltage spikes coming through the power lines. Having a GFCI trip may potentially save you from a mild electrical shock, but it can also kill everything in your tank if you're away at work or out of town. An actual electrocution from a faulty component in a saltwater tank is an exceptionally rare thing - far far rarer than casualties due to airplane crashes or being struck by lightning. Unfortunately, losing an entire reef tank b/c of a GFCI trip is not a rare thing.

[Joe0813]

ouch... sorry for the lose.... but there is a bright side to this all, it could have been A LOT worse... that fire could have got out of control really fast and burn your house and all belongings with it

[Fish_King_25]

Deciding on keeping this thread alive for a little bit since so many people kindly consoled me during my loss..I was thinking of updating everyone here and there and maybe uploading a couple of pics when I get the chance, perhaps later tonight maybe.

Update thus far:

Couple of water changes, and a couple of tests and things are quickly aligning back up..I purchased a new stand..(old particle board stand is warped and soaked and not looking too hot lol.) That should be arriving in a few days, and I will be moving my tank onto a nice new wood stand, with much more space underneath to work with, so that is a positive. I have got a nice plan laid out for where my powerstrip will be placed moving forward, and also converted my main outlet for the tank to a GFIC outlet for a little added protection. While I was in the process of re-doing my whole setup, I also took the time to label each power cord with the corresponding equipment piece for a little time saver when working on some things. I have decided against going to a small 10g sump in place of my HOB refugium and my HOB protein skimmer. I am still unsure as to why my protein skimmer overflows from time to time, but I am just shopping around for a new one, and only running mine when I am home and can keep an eye on it. All is perfect with my fuge, so I am not changing a thing with that...

I added my sandbed today, and am waiting on the dust to settle, so I can re-arrange all of my rockwork and glue down some of my frags I never glued from months back, so that everything is nice and secure and in it's place prior to any type of fish additions coming in the future....Ammonia is showing up minimally in the tank as of right now, but NO2, NO3, Phos, are all at 0, and my Ph and Alk are both great. Salinity is a touch low at .021, and I will gradually raise that over the next few days.

Anyone have anything to add??? Will post a little later with some pictures of the progress and what not.

[Sn8kbyt]

I will add that I am sorry for your loss, especially your old timer clown!

I would reconsider the sump though and get a skimmer that you can put into it. When setup properly they are the perfect fail safe and create additional flow into your DT. I knew nothing from boo about marine tanks 9 months ago and did alot of research before I set up my old 90g freshwater tank to a marine tank. Sumps came up over and over again in the forums and books I read. I was afraid of building something that allowed my DT to overflow and fall into a container 10% of its volume...just sounded like a nightmare if something went wrong.

I resisted that fear and built a 29 gallon sump with 3 chambers and put a skimmer in it. It works flawless and I keep everything that is in my sump plugged into a separate strip so even if I have a failure on the sump that takes out everything my powerheads, lights, and small back-up heater will still run on the other. My in sump skimmer overflows from time to time but it overflows into the sump (no water loss). I haven't figured out exactly why but have been fine tuning things and it does it less often and hopefully soon never, but if it does I do not have a system water loss.

If your moving the tank to a new stand and buying a new skimmer anyway I just can't see of a better time to put a sump in.

Again sorry for your loss and whatever direction you take I hope everything works out well for you!

[Fish_King_25]

Thank you for the kind words...I couldn't agree more and believe that a sump could definitely be a better direction..my concerns are this..
1. Is a 10g sump worth it on a 29g tank? And..I am not handy and cannot begin to build one myself..so what would it cost me??

[rworegon]

Sumps are easy and building one ca be as simple as siliconing a couple of glass or acrylic partitions into a cheap tank. You will need to buy a return pump to get the water back into you r display but again, thats easy. There are many threads on sump design that can explain it so much better than I can. I can't say enough how much easier tank maintenance is with a sump. It also unclutters you display. All your filtration happens out of sight. It also adds volume to your system making stability easier. Now it the time since you are basically in rebuild mode anyway.

[Fish_King_25]

Than I believe I'm going to take the plunge and look into it..any idea what a cost might be for something like this?

[SVTour]

Sorry about your loss...to some extent, I've been there myself (heck, most of us probably have a story similar).

You just need a tank...nothing else with it. For yours, I'd do either a 10 or 15. Maybe check with your LFS, or craigslist, because you can probably get one really cheap (I'm thinking 5 to 10 dollar range). It just needs to hold water, scratches don't mean anything.

Home Depot/ Lowes would have the acrylic you need. You don't want this too flexible, get something around 1/8th to 3/16's (thicker the better). Get some aquarium silicone to hold it in place.

The pump and the overflow are going to be the main parts of this purchase. I used a Rio pump when I had a 29...I think it was an 1800. I just placed the tubing the the output and ran it up to the DT.

I'd research the overflow part. I'm sure they've improved over the years. I had a CPR unit, but was never wild in how it operated due to needing an Aqualifter on it.

It sounds difficult...but really isn't. Most of us live by these things. :) Keeping all your equipment in this will help keep the DT looking good as well.

[Fish_King_25]

So all of these pictures i see of people with pvc pipes branching in 100. Directions with valves and all this jazz isnt necessary??

I can get a 10g, some acrylic and some silicone and probably figure that part out..but what do i use to get the water from my display down to the sump, and vise versa?? This is the part i am unsure with

[Derbird]

So all of these pictures i see of people with pvc pipes branching in 100. Directions with valves and all this jazz isnt necessary??

I can get a 10g, some acrylic and some silicone and probably figure that part out..but what do i use to get the water from my display down to the sump, and vise versa?? This is the part i am unsure with

First off I'm so sorry to hear about your losses. There are few worse ways to come home from a trip :(

The plumbing can be as simple or as complicated as you would like. All you really need is a drain line and return line. People (myself incuded) like to add in more redundency like a check valve and ball valves to make it a bit safer and easier to work on. If its possible have your tank drilled vs he HOB overflow. It gives you one less point of failure.

If you have the choice I would get a 15g tank. 10g's are made with really thin glass and can break easily.

[SVTour]

So all of these pictures i see of people with pvc pipes branching in 100. Directions with valves and all this jazz isnt necessary??


Nope...the valves I originally had are for cleaning items and water changes. Valves that you see like that typically have nothing to do with your basic overflow and return.

All you need is a pipe coming down from an overflow, and a pipe going up for the return. Where you get into trouble is the return...when power goes out...if that line is under water, it becomes a siphon for your tank. Two ways to combat this
1) Don't have the return line under water. Of course, this could give you some splashing and salt creep.
2) Drill a small hole right where the pipe hits the water. The small hole will have water flow from it, but if you lose power, it will break the siphon.

Once you have it set up...just test turning off the power, you'll want to keep your sump only 1/2 full, so water coming from the display will not cause it to overflow. This is actually why I suggested a 15 with the 10 (as you're only going to have 5 or 7 gallons in it).

To get the water out of your tank, you would need something like this (again, I'm not wild about the CPR unit, so I would ask around).

http://www.marinedepot.com/CPR_CS_Overflow_Boxes_External_Overflow_Boxes_for_Aquariums-CPR-CR1511-FIOFEB-vi.html

For the return, I'd just look at getting one of these...typically, your display will be 3.5' to 4' above where the pump is, so you need to look at the chart to calculate head loss This pump would give you around 350/375 GPH considering 3.5 to 4' of pipe.

http://www.marinedepot.com/Taam_Rio+_1700_Powerhead_UL_Fixed_Flow_Aquarium_Powerheads-TAAM_Via_Aqua-TA3111-FIPHFF-TA3148-vi.html

If you think you want more flow, get a bigger pump. Just note that you'll need to make sure the overflow can handle it.

[dkeller_nc]

This is, by far, the best designed "siphon overflow" available:

http://www.lifereef.com/siphon.html

But I think all of us that have had experience in the past with siphon overflows will tell you - get your tank drilled! The fundamental physics involved with siphon overflows virtually guarantees failure at some point, with the consequences of overflowing your tank and burning up your return pump.

Drilling a tank isn't hard at all, and if you choose, you can do it yourself with a kit from bulk reef supply.

However, if you don't have a quarantine tank, and given that glass tanks in the smaller ranges are very inexpensive, you might consider buying a new tank & stand that is pre-drilled and already has an overflow installed. You would need to buy an extra return pump and a heater, but that's all.

You can then set everything up at your leisure, and rob a bit of LR and sand from your current set-up, let the new tank's water chemistry settle for a couple of weeks, and then transfer everything over. You then have your current tank and HOB skimmer as quarantine tank, or an extra "emergency tank" as insurance against a tank crash.

Also, it's an excuse to get a bigger tank. ;)

[Fish_King_25]

Thanks for the info guys..that lifereef link exactly made me understand the build process a bit..unfortunately due to space and limitations in my current residence...another tank or upgrade of any kind is not going to be possible, therefore drilling my 29g is nnot gonna be an option (but when I move and my 180g is all set up) ill never own another tank that isn't drilled that's for sure. I know overflow boxes are just a middle ground for a sump setup and drilling is absolutely ideal..but this lifereef box seems like a decent option for me right now. I'm thinking a 15g underneath the 29g, and just a simple return pump and simple overflow line and om in buisness..I can even attempt to sell my hob fuge and skimmer to cover some costs of setting up the sump..I'm feeling much better at attempting this now!

[wnppmy]

Wow, always worried on my vaca as recently gone exact that amount of time.

I did same on feeding, had a party small flake feed only. Had simple timer on lights, still working on my return.

Mine is a more simplistic setup, no skimmers or refuge. More basic mushroom and a soft coral.

Hardy fish, clown, Dotty, and Cherub.

First vaca last year worried as many power outages, so reversed light to a sensor lighting only at night. Figured a bullet proof method and worked fine. Things quickly adjusted to daytime lights on my return.

Mine is small, so had party top off mid week.

Realize your system is much more involved, again also sorry on loss. But you did excellent on original start for sure. Good Job!

[Breadman03]

Thank you for the kind words...I couldn't agree more and believe that a sump could definitely be a better direction..my concerns are this..
1. Is a 10g sump worth it on a 29g tank? And..I am not handy and cannot begin to build one myself..so what would it cost me??

There is a shop near me that told me $80 for a 20 gallon sump.

Since all of your equipment is HOB, I assume that the water level in your tank fluctuates slightly. Such fluctuation could cause a skimmer to overflow when it is topped off to high.

I didn't have an ATO (auto top off) until last week. With the varying level in my sump, my skimmer had a tendency to overflow when I topped of the tank, and would continue until I turned it off (because I didn't want to mess with my adjustment). Since putting in the ATO, the thing has been running beautifully.

My ATO isn't failsafe, per se. I have a 5 gallon reservoir using an airline as a siphon and a float valve in the sump to set the water level. If the switch fails when the reservoir is full, it will fill my sump to the top. If the power fails in such a situation, I would get about 1-2 gallons on the floor.

I am just not filling it up all the way so that I minimize the risk until I can get a better setup.

[Fizz71]

Nope...the valves I originally had are for cleaning items and water changes. Valves that you see like that typically have nothing to do with your basic overflow and return.


Sorry for the late post on this, but I wanted to add something I've observed that relates to this, but didn't get to post it last week.

Over the course of the last 5 years there's been an INCREDIBLE amount of technology shift in reefkeeping...actually it's constantly shifting, but in the last 5 years one major shift was the advent of high flow, energy efficient powerheads. In the past all power heads had a tiny (approx) 1/3" discharge tube and that was it..and they were a b*thc to mount and aim. Some of them turned (for a few months anyway) but they didn't do a whole lot. So for cool random flow we needed things like closed loops and motorized return lines and all sorts of crazy sh*t that required a LOT of plumbing and PVC. And some of those systems are still out there.

I can still remember when the first high flow but wide spread pumps first hit the market and everybody was wetting themselves over them. It was suction mounted, but moved a LOT of water. Hell...I still use my Seio to ripple the surface in my sump. Now we have vortechs and koralias that are magnet mounted and on controllers and FAR more energy efficient than external pumps.

With my 240g now, the only crazy plumbing I have is: #1. To make water changes bucket free, and #2 I had to get creative to use a 100g tub as a "sump" and #3 my sump is on a different floor than my tank. The rest like SVTour said is for ease in cleaning and such. With a basic sump system you just need to get water down and back, and some way to clean the pump.

[scubaprashant]

You may want to look at the Seneye tank monitoring system. They are pretty inexpensive and monitor ammonia, ph, & o2 I believe.

http://www.reefradiance.com has them for a reasonable price. I'd wait for a sale though as I think you should be able to pick them up for way under the current listed price.