Cycle help after purchasing used tank?

[twelvefive]

OK, so I got a really good deal on a 125 gallon tank with stand, sump, lights, everything (except a skimmer) from Craigslist. It came with 50 lbs of live rock (I know it needs more and I will slowly be adding more after this cycle is complete), 1.5 inches of sand, some fish (Goby, firefish, clown, yellow tang, foxface rabbit fish, 2 shrimp, Ritteri nem), and a few corals. I bought it last weekend and we moved it to my house on that Sunday (we drove about a mile with everything).

[also, this is my second tank, I had a 10 gallon salt tank a few years ago, but decided to get out due to financial reason and moving from an apartment to a house. I'm not a total newb.]

So everything was going great for the first week, ammonia was at .25 through Friday, but that was expected after disturbing the sand (in hindsight, I should have replaced the sand, but live and learn and whatnot). I assumed everything was golden until Monday... check ammonia and it's at 8. I frantically water change 35 gallons using RO water and Instant Ocean. Tuesday, ammonia still at 8, change 35 gallons. Wednesday (yesterday), still at 8, change 40 gallons. I checked it last night an hour after the water change and it was still registering ammonia at 8. I'm planning a 65 gallon water change tonight. I've been dosing with Ammo Lock, so I haven't lost anything except a sand sifting star and serpent star (which were promptly removed).

Also, he kept his salinity at .019, I've been steadily raising it and it's at .023 now... I'm aiming for .025 -.026. All of the other paremeters are in the normal range, nitrites and trates are still at 0...

So anyway, on to my question. Is this ammo spike caused by the move? Is there anything else I can do to make this go by faster? I figured these decent sized water changes would have some impact, but so far, nothing...

Any help and/or suggestions?

[E Rosewater]

Are your fish and coral still alive and looking alright? If the answer is yes I would suspect you're getting an incorrect reading on your test.

[kissman]

if you are going through a cycle it was caused by the move. However if you are using API test kits they are inaccurate and read high. If fish and corals aren't showing stress then I would either get a good test kit or find someone that does and have them double check your readings

[twelvefive]

Are your fish and coral still alive and looking alright? If the answer is yes I would suspect you're getting an incorrect reading on your test.

The small leather I have is waxy looking, but according to things I've read, he may just be defecating. Other than the two dead starfish, everyone else is healthy.


if you are going through a cycle it was caused by the move. However if you are using API test kits they are inaccurate and read high. If fish and corals aren't showing stress then I would either get a good test kit or find someone that does and have them double check your readings

I'll get an lfs to check the water tomorrow. The same kit was registering .25 all last week, why would it work last week, but not this week?

[brandon429]

additives can mar the test readings

[E Rosewater]

I would think that 4 days at over 8ppm of Ammonia would cause quite a bit of distress for the fish, and especially any invertebrate in the tank.

If it is a real reading though it needs to be brought down immediately.

[twelvefive]

additives can mar the test readings

Would Herbtana cause this?

[twelvefive]

I would think that 4 days at over 8ppm of Ammonia would cause quite a bit of distress for the fish, and especially any invertebrate in the tank.

If it is a real reading though it needs to be brought down immediately.

I thought this too, but the Ritteri Nem, although he was already bleached when I got him, looks otherwise healthy. I would think he would be the first to go with a spike this high.

[brandon429]

truly I dont know, but you just cant trust api. prime causes their nitrite kits to misread, use salifert or just post a tank picture, we can diagnose ammonia off that alone.

it is very very very hard to have free ammonia in a reef tank that is matured. you have to have a heavily packed sandbed that was disturbed (possible as you mentioned) or a decent amount of death. Im curious to see what this looks like

[twelvefive]

http://imgur.com/a/lX2ee

These were taken late last week. I don't have any current pics and can't get more until after work.

[twelvefive]

truly I dont know, but you just cant trust api. prime causes their nitrite kits to misread, use salifert or just post a tank picture, we can diagnose ammonia off that alone.

it is very very very hard to have free ammonia in a reef tank that is matured. you have to have a heavily packed sandbed that was disturbed (possible as you mentioned) or a decent amount of death. Im curious to see what this looks like

My wife just measured fresh mixed water and it read 4ppm.

[brandon429]

even though you can tell I hate api lol (while others like it, this is just my schtik) Id like to see if a distilled water test still reads some amount based on the card reference...if you just mixed saltwater, they say some kinds will read ammonia shortly as the ions do their thing being taken up into the water.

I used to mix up reefcrystals and instantly use it without a wait on my uber delicate pico reefs and if there was indeed real ammonia it would have killed them, but there's no telling on the kind of salt you used.

but rest assured, some api ammonia kits will show .25 even in clean pure distilled water! hit that test and see what you think. sometimes it comes down to how we read a color card I know, but still I think they should stop selling these just my opinion

I even temporarily changed my sig in disgust lol. soooo many threads both in this forum and on nano reef.com have been spent around ammonia diagnostics failed because of api, #newfavoritereefscapegoat.

[twelvefive]

Fresh ro water: 0 ppm
The saltwater mixed last night: 4 ppm
Tank: 8 ppm

Tank picture from now. Slime is spreading.
http://imgur.com/4Z0GzWt

[kissman]

whats in the pic is normal for a new tank or a moved tank

[brandon429]

Agreed.

That little shrimp poking about in the back is your canary for ammonia, he'll be belly up if there is any.

I do not see the abnormal sand bed loading of organics to be leaking ammonia. Nor excessive benthic growth on the live rock to be dying off, rather nice tank. I consider that little bit of cyano on the sand no big deal especially since you moved. Though i can't splain why a test kit shows ammonia, based on pics i vote none regardless of any reading. That lysmata or stenopus perching on the back rocks just won't have it.

You described some initial losses which may or may not be from an initial ammonia spike, or moving stress etc, but ammonia is so rapidly converted/oxidized i just don't think there is any now.

If it was my tank, id simply siphon off that cyano repeatedly until things settle. Good clean tank you have there. The after effects/nutrient upwelling from xferring the sandbed can last a while so simply don't let any algae take hold during. If its on the sand, remove it in my opinion

[twelvefive]

Thanks, guys.

What's the best method for siphoning the cyano? Is there a good way to remove it from the flower pot?

[twelvefive]

Vacuumed out the cyano last night, It was back on my flower pot this morning, but not on the sand before I left.

[twelvefive]

Just got ammonia checked at the lfs, and the ammonia is off the charts. Back to water changes I guess.

[kissman]

Then i would take everything out of tank give them to a friend or lfs for credit and let the tank cycle

[brandon429]

Post another pic of the tank taken just now lets see the shrimp up close who can survive days with off the charts ammonia

Where do you think the source of the ammonia comes from?


No way. What test kit did they use


Here is another test to narrow things down

Find some aged saltwater and test it with your kit, something we know has zero ammonia. Post that actual test kit reading and sample in a pic

Then test your tank water right next to it is should be interesting

[brandon429]

The only possible source is your clean white sandbed


So the next step is siphon a little sand out, put it in that known pure sample of water shown, and retest to show the ammonia.

[brandon429]

Can you just take a pic with your smartphone and directly upload it here pls these are fun chemistry hunts to pinpoint


Another first: goby survives over a week in 8ppm ammonia, never seen on the history of this board, see where I'm going?

[twelvefive]

I have been dosing ammo-lock since Monday, so I'm assuming that's why everyone is alive?

I added 25 lbs of base rock and a bottle of Dr Tim's live bacteria last night after a 50 gallon water change. Ammonia is testing at 4ppm today.

not sure which kit they used, black box with the color card in a circle that sits around the outside of the test bottle. It turns green at 2ppm and it turned blue.

Stand by for pictures, I just cleaned the glass and everyone but the clown is hiding.

[twelvefive]

http://imgur.com/hIQ1V2N.jpg
http://imgur.com/ns5BymK.jpg
http://imgur.com/yWL1hvL.jpg

Crappy pics, but you get the idea. I haven't seen my firefish since yesterday morning... not sure what his deal is. Rabbitfish is hiding in the rocks because he's a sissy, and cleaner shrimp are both still alive, but hiding in the rocks so I can't get pics right now.

[brandon429]

I am truly interested in solving the mystery thanks for the pics, it looks like such a normal reeftank these atypical readings are so what the heck

As mentioned, spending a weekend doing successive water changes cannot hurt and if indeed there is ammonia that is a great immediate remedy, it will be needed to save the animals. I'd like to see if the polyps on the corals extend better towards mid day lemme know

[brandon429]

So, we are looking for the cause of the ammonia. The reading was listed as high even without dead animals in it right? You mentioned some loss during the move but they were removed I'm assuming? The lost fish needs to be accounted for as we zero in on the source


Have you tested the freshwater you topoff with and make sw with to verify no ammonia

What is your source water, your own ro/di unit?

Verify all animals even if that means moving rocks. Verify no pockets of abnormal waste accumulation.

Its not coming from the live rock, notice its aged but not particularly dense with sponges, tubeworms etc.

Look for any detail on the live rock for tubeworms extending their fans. Look for tiny tubeworm tubes not being extended, maybe indicating some irritation to the tiny benthic life forms on the rock. If you can find even a few extended common LR tubeworms, there is no free ammonia and everyone's test is loco. They hate free ammonia and wont come out

What micro life forms can you spot on the LR if you look really close?

Barring these input pathways above, a dead fish etc, it has to be the sandbed its the only source left. It will be easy to discern that when you have a known zero level ammonia saltwater sample and add some sand to it. If it reads ammonia off the charts that white sandbed was masking abnormal amounts of concentrated detritus from pure neglect before you got it. Ammonia not from source water must come from protein usage, and those stores are apparent either as giant pockets of uneaten food, dead fish or star, or a terribly wasted sandbed. You can literally see the source in the tank which is why ammonia is easy to trace.


Then it would be prudent to hold fish in buckets, take out live rock, remove all your bad sand, replace with caribsea arrive alive wet pack sand that was rinsed well, refill with all new clean sw, put back in fish and rocks (will not cause a cycle) and you have just solved your ammonia problem. At no point in this chain of events can an API ammonia test kit play a role.

I still question the reading due to the presence of sensitive lysmata species shrimp, who are ultra sensitive. The pagoda coral should open, or some of your corals should open today or tomorrow better than what the pics show. If not, that's a concern and water changes should be being done here, its CPR for your tank literally.

[twelvefive]

Zoas haven't been open for a day or two. The flower pot is doing the best it can while being ravaged by cyano. Shrooms wilted, but still alive. Nem is still hanging in there.

[twelvefive]

So, we are looking for the cause of the ammonia. The reading was listed as high even without dead animals in it right? You mentioned some loss during the move but they were removed I'm assuming? The lost fish needs to be accounted for as we zero in on the source
The tank was moved exactly two weeks ago today (Sunday). The ammonia started reading .25 on that first Wednesday. It stayed .25 Thurs and Fri so I assumed it was stable (first mistake after using the sand from the previous tank). Monday morning, the serpent star was dead, so I immediately pulled him and tested ammonia and it was 8ppm. The second star died Wednesday and he was pulled before any breakdown occured.

Have you tested the freshwater you topoff with and make sw with to verify no ammonia
Yes, and it's reading 0ppm

What is your source water, your own ro/di unit?
It's just an RO, not a DI, but I got it from the same guy I got the tank from.

Verify all animals even if that means moving rocks. Verify no pockets of abnormal waste accumulation.
Firefish is alive, moved rocks and found him about an hour ago... no waste accumulation anywhere.

Its not coming from the live rock, notice its aged but not particularly dense with sponges, tubeworms etc.

Look for any detail on the live rock for tubeworms extending their fans. Look for tiny tubeworm tubes not being extended, maybe indicating some irritation to the tiny benthic life forms on the rock. If you can find even a few extended common LR tubeworms, there is no free ammonia and everyone's test is loco. They hate free ammonia and wont come out
I haven't seen any life in the rocks, I never saw any when I went to look at the tank before it was moved either. He only used a few pounds of live rock and mostly base rock in this tank, and I'm not sure what his source for original rock was.

What micro life forms can you spot on the LR if you look really close?
See above.

Barring these input pathways above, a dead fish etc, it has to be the sandbed its the only source left. It will be easy to discern that when you have a known zero level ammonia saltwater sample and add some sand to it. If it reads ammonia off the charts that white sandbed was masking abnormal amounts of concentrated detritus from pure neglect before you got it. Ammonia not from source water must come from protein usage, and those stores are apparent either as giant pockets of uneaten food, dead fish or star, or a terribly wasted sandbed. You can literally see the source in the tank which is why ammonia is easy to trace.
It literally has to be the sandbed... but I'm not sure how on board the wife would be with me purchasing new sand since I dropped a grand on this tank two weeks ago... What are the chances I could just overcome this with large waterchanges? Ammonia has started dropping off now, it was between the 2-4ppm color earlier today, plus I added the Dr. Tim's live bacteria with 25 more pounds of live rock yesterday to up the filtration in this tank. I also set up a light and some chaeto in the sump to head off the unavoidable nitrates and nitrites that will be here soon.

Then it would be prudent to hold fish in buckets, take out live rock, remove all your bad sand, replace with caribsea arrive alive wet pack sand that was rinsed well, refill with all new clean sw, put back in fish and rocks (will not cause a cycle) and you have just solved your ammonia problem. At no point in this chain of events can an API ammonia test kit play a role.

I still question the reading due to the presence of sensitive lysmata species shrimp, who are ultra sensitive. The pagoda coral should open, or some of your corals should open today or tomorrow better than what the pics show. If not, that's a concern and water changes should be being done here, its CPR for your tank literally.
The only explanation I have for this is the fact that I started dosing Ammo-Lock as soon as I noticed the ammonia spike? The corals were all open during the spike until the cyano came around. It is ravaging my flower pot.

[brandon429]

Yes water changes will be critical in my opinion


I do 100% weekly for seven years on my tank but its a pico reef so its easy. Biologically speaking big changes are good for your system, far less stress than free ammonia if there is any

[cro117]

i'm very curious what the nitrites read, unless i skimmed over that somewhere. unless you somehow sterilized your entire tank without knowing, beneficial bacteria should have been converting that ammonia to nitrites this whole time. the water changes will make nitrites seem deceptively low, but there should be detectable amount.

i would suggest removing the livestock to another tank for the short term till you figure things out.

as far as the sand, you shouldn't need to completely replace it. most likely you had a lot of decomposition along with life in it that has been disturbed and is now decomposing. i would rinse it out gently in salt water if possible, or hose it down with a hose if not. then put it back in the tank and be patient with it. new life will return to your sand, and in time it will be beneficial again, rather then harmful.

sorry if i missed something while skimming over the thread, but did you remove anything from the system when you moved it? could be a clump of bio-bail, an old dirty strip of cotton, anything like that?

[twelvefive]

i'm very curious what the nitrites read, unless i skimmed over that somewhere. unless you somehow sterilized your entire tank without knowing, beneficial bacteria should have been converting that ammonia to nitrites this whole time. the water changes will make nitrites seem deceptively low, but there should be detectable amount.

i would suggest removing the livestock to another tank for the short term till you figure things out.

as far as the sand, you shouldn't need to completely replace it. most likely you had a lot of decomposition along with life in it that has been disturbed and is now decomposing. i would rinse it out gently in salt water if possible, or hose it down with a hose if not. then put it back in the tank and be patient with it. new life will return to your sand, and in time it will be beneficial again, rather then harmful.

sorry if i missed something while skimming over the thread, but did you remove anything from the system when you moved it? could be a clump of bio-bail, an old dirty strip of cotton, anything like that?

Trites have been 0ppm the whole time. Nothing was removed from the tank. I purchased the tank, sump, everything from the guy. I have only added filtration thus far, chaeto, more live rock, etc.

[cro117]

then you either really do have ammonia but your bacteria has taken such a hit you don't have any to process the ammonia to nitrite yet, you don't have as much ammonia as you think you do, or your test kits are way off.

if you got your test kits with the tank then they could be quite old. tracking the nitrite will be a huge clue into your ammonia mystery, like traking footprints.

[twelvefive]

then you either really do have ammonia but your bacteria has taken such a hit you don't have any to process the ammonia to nitrite yet, you don't have as much ammonia as you think you do, or your test kits are way off.

if you got your test kits with the tank then they could be quite old. tracking the nitrite will be a huge clue into your ammonia mystery, like traking footprints.

The test kits aren't expired yet and the lfs got the same ammonia reading as me, so I think it's the former. There were originally 50lbs of rock, some of it was still fresh white base rock, not live rock. I think that was the main cause, just a lack of filter for the stirred up sand.

[cro117]

well if that's the case, then nitrites will show in a week or two, and if you really do need a full cycle, then i'd highly recommend stopping the treatments and water changes and embrace high ammonia. a tank has to get worse before it can get better.

[kissman]

Trites have been 0ppm the whole time. Nothing was removed from the tank. I purchased the tank, sump, everything from the guy. I have only added filtration thus far, chaeto, more live rock, etc.

The dead stuff on the " more live rock added" is the cause

[E Rosewater]

I am still not convinced. With all of the water changes the Ammonia would have had to have started at least close to 20ppm. And the fact that everything lived makes me think there is something that is interfering with the test.

Is there anything that you put into the tank chemical wise? If so I would take a small amount of salt water, add a little of that chemical then test it.

[dunc101]

IMO, the ammonia lock is what is 1.) saving your fish and 2.) causing the 'false' high ammonia readings. Do a google search on prime, amquel, and / or ammonia lock, etc causing false ammonia readings. These products convert "bad" ammonia into a non toxic ammonia, however, test kits will give false readings as they measure ammonia in general.

If I were you, I would go purchase a seachem ammonia alert badge as it will only detect harmful ammonia. I believe a seachem ammonia test kit only detects the bad ammonia as well also but likely costs more than a $5 seachem ammonia alert badge (ONLY get the seachem ammonia alert badge... their are others but some only work in freshwater and no in saltwater... the seachem one works for fresh OR salt). You can get the seachem ammonia alert badge from petsmart or petco and more than likely your LFS. I use them in my QT tanks all the time... as a matter of fact I have a fish in QT right now with a seachem ammonia alert badge in it.

[twelvefive]

The dead stuff on the " more live rock added" is the cause

I added new base rock that was thoroughly rinsed. I didn't add that until Friday evening, though.

I am still not convinced. With all of the water changes the Ammonia would have had to have started at least close to 20ppm. And the fact that everything lived makes me think there is something that is interfering with the test.

Is there anything that you put into the tank chemical wise? If so I would take a small amount of salt water, add a little of that chemical then test it.

I've tested the Herbtana that I added for ich this way, I'll do it with the Ammo-Lock.

IMO, the ammonia lock is what is 1.) saving your fish and 2.) causing the 'false' high ammonia readings. Do a google search on prime, amquel, and / or ammonia lock, etc causing false ammonia readings. These products convert "bad" ammonia into a non toxic ammonia, however, test kits will give false readings as they measure ammonia in general.

If I were you, I would go purchase a seachem ammonia alert badge as it will only detect harmful ammonia. I believe a seachem ammonia test kit only detects the bad ammonia as well also but likely costs more than a $5 seachem ammonia alert badge (ONLY get the seachem ammonia alert badge... their are others but some only work in freshwater and no in saltwater... the seachem one works for fresh OR salt). You can get the seachem ammonia alert badge from petsmart or petco and more than likely your LFS. I use them in my QT tanks all the time... as a matter of fact I have a fish in QT right now with a seachem ammonia alert badge in it.

Thanks, I knew API tested for all ammonia, but I wasn't aware there were tests that only tested the bad stuff. I'll check this out tonight.

[twelvefive]

I think I tracked down the ammonia... a few posts back, I tested the freshly mixed saltwater and it tested at 4ppm ammonia, well I purchased a new batch of salt and when I was doing my 40 gallon wc tonight, I thought about testing the new mix... it tested at 0ppm. I'm thinking I might have had a bad batch or it got infected somehow. I'm going to test the water in a few to see what it is after this change and see where I stand now.

[twelvefive]

IMO, the ammonia lock is what is 1.) saving your fish and 2.) causing the 'false' high ammonia readings. Do a google search on prime, amquel, and / or ammonia lock, etc causing false ammonia readings. These products convert "bad" ammonia into a non toxic ammonia, however, test kits will give false readings as they measure ammonia in general.

If I were you, I would go purchase a seachem ammonia alert badge as it will only detect harmful ammonia. I believe a seachem ammonia test kit only detects the bad ammonia as well also but likely costs more than a $5 seachem ammonia alert badge (ONLY get the seachem ammonia alert badge... their are others but some only work in freshwater and no in saltwater... the seachem one works for fresh OR salt). You can get the seachem ammonia alert badge from petsmart or petco and more than likely your LFS. I use them in my QT tanks all the time... as a matter of fact I have a fish in QT right now with a seachem ammonia alert badge in it.

Added the ammo lock to a fresh salt test and it shot the ammonia from 0 to 2ppm, so I have also verified that ammonia is probably a lot lower than it's reading. Working on finding an alert badge since it will only measure free ammonia.