High Phosphates

[Editour2]

My system is comprised of: a 215 gal DT, 120 gal sump w/additional live rock (filled about 65%), a 40 gal refugium with chaeto and mangroves (4) and a 20 gal frag tank. Total system volume of approximately 300 gallons. I have 3 LED lighting units of 180 watts each. My return pump is a Dart which feeds my Orca 200 skimmer and Knop HD calcium reactor. Internal flow is made up of 2 Tunze 6105's and a WP40, (I have a 2nd WP40 that I will be adding shortly). I use an RODI water purification unit w/TDS meter. I also run a BRS Dual Reactor w/carbon and GFO and I drip a 1 gallon mix of a heaping teaspoon of kalkwasser w/80ml of vinegar (slowly built up to 80ml)....nightly. I usually do a 5% water change weekly and use Reef Crystals salt....switching to E.S.V.

Parameters are: Ca=425, Alkalinity=10.8dkh, Mag=1350, temp= 78 to 80 degrees (it's getting hot on Long Island), salt content=1.026.

The DT has been running since Nov 2011, coral frags added about 4 months later (March 2012). It is my goal to have an SPS dominated reef.

I have the following fish: 2 pyramid butterflies, 2 yellow tangs, sailfin tang, regal tang, swallowtail angel, 3 various wrasses, 4 various anthias, 2 pair clownfish, royal gramma, 2 blue/yellow damsels and 4 various chromis. Feeding regimen is: a good pinch of flake or pellets in the AM and 5 cubes of frozen mix in the evening, (I don't see any food being wasted...it is consumed in the tank). I've just begun feeding the corals a combination of reef frenzy, cyclopeeze and reef roids.....3 times a week.

Okay....here is the problem; my corals have exhibited extremely slow growth. Some coral show no growth except encrusting on the frag mount. Specific corals, (albeit few), show better growth than others however others show no growth whatsoever but do stay alive, others exhibit RTN and perish. I thought that it may be a combination of issues such as; a need to increase the flow, (that's why I just purchased the 2 addtional wp40's), lack of a full color spectrum on the LED lighting (I only have cool white, royal blue and blue...all Cree). I am considering adding additional colored LED's or 4 60" T-5's to supplement, and alkalinity swings, (which I have addressed and continue to monitor).

To add to my concerns recently ALL of my GSP closed up...for a week now....absolutely no polyp extension...all other corals seem the same.

I just purchased a Hanna phosphate checker so I decided now was a good time to take a reading. I was surprised to find the reading was 1.09 ppm....VERY HIGH. To address this I have done two 10% water changes this week and placed 250grams of Elimi Phos in a high flow area of the sump...last night, (I do run GFO but I thought I would try this product since I won a large container of it in a raffle). I plan on changing the GFO....(I usually change out the GFO and carbon every 2 months). The GFO was changed a little less than a month ago.

Any comments, suggestions would be appreciated.

[tmz]

PhosphAte at 1.09 is about 25 to 50 times a hEAlthy level for most corals( .02 to .05 ppm , ime)

There are a number of things to cover ;so, I make the reponse as terse as I can :

80ml vinegar is a relatively small dose; I use 400ml vinegar equivalents( vodka and vinegar for 650 gallons , fwiw)

Some corals encrust fully before sprouting up;it can take months

gsp closing could be PO4 related

Eleimi phos is a brand of gfo per the Tropic Marinrin site.

Gfo and gac cahnged 2x per month is not adequate for your system . After a month the gac is likely useless as a binder for organcis . Gfo ehuasts quickly ,sometimes overnight in high PO4 water. I think it's likely that it's doing that at 1.09ppm.

Rock and substrate are likely holding lots of phospate te on the argonite surfaces from exposure to these levels and will leach it back for months, as the PO4 levels in the water column drop

[Editour2]

Okay......

1) I will continue to double the weekly water changes
2) I will slowly increase the vinegar dosing....to 200ml ????
3) I will change the GFO & carbon every week.
4) I'll have to be patient with the deep sand bed and rock..........I don't plan on pulling it out unless it's absolutely necessary.

During this process I will test the phosphates every other day to note progress......

[tmz]

I'd hold off on step 2 until things settle down and PO4 and NO3 aee in reasonable ranges.

[bertoni]

The GFO might need to be replaced every day or more frequently for a while. I'd be careful about dropping the level too quickly, though.

[atmercure]

FWIW. Ive been dealing with the same problem since Dec 12'. I converted my 150 over to a 210 with a lot of sps and have lost most. Big colonies. I would def say that phosphates are the problem. I bought a hannah bench photometer so i knew i would get good results and found mine to be at .12. I know its not ultra high but found that i would exhaust BRS GFO in a day so something was not good. My friend close by also converted to a 210 at the same time so i was able to move some sps to his tank that is around .03-.05 and those sps have recovered and are doing well. I feel your frustration and have been vodka dosing since march. It is a very slow process and i am up to 8ML a day and the phates are slowly coming down. Might be worth looking reefkeeping.com/issues/2008-08/nftt/. I used this article for guidance. Good Luck

[Steveb]

What about dosing lanthium chloride?

[tmz]

LaCl ,lanthanum chloride works well for rocks treated out the tank in a curing vessel (bin ,bucket etc)

In tank treatments will also reduce PO4 significantly. However, ime, it is not without risk a thriving tank..The precipitant, LaPO4 and/or LAO3 can harm fish and filter feeders including clams .
Slow dosing and adequate filtration ,at least 10 micron; 5 is better to prevent most of the precipitant from entering the water .

Another concern of mine is any unbound La that may enter the tank water. La Cl disassociates in water . it's likely some unattached La will get through the filtration in many applications, precipitating in udesireable locations,where it might interfere with breathing apparatuses or even calcification. It may also form a haze on galss and other surfaces.
FWIW, I use it for small adjustments to my system from time to time( usually no more than 6ml of teh Seakler product in 24 hours for 650 gallons) but generally prefer to avoid in tank treatments.

Regenerating gfo can help with costs there.

Vodka and or vinegar dosing will help help to but require a slow start up.

[Editour2]

Thanks guys.....I got home late yesterday but still managed to change the GFO and carbon in my BRS dual reactor. I will retest my water tonight and also test my RODI water. Regarding the vinegar dosing.....I have been doing this for a while so I am up to 80ml per day....I am going to slowly increase the dosage over the next couple of months to get it up to 200ml.

Just as a side note: I have a 40 gal refugium with rock rubble, chaeto and mangrove plants.....Does anyone provide flow in their refugiums? I have my dart return pump feeding my 20gal frag tank which overflows into the refugium which in turn overflows back into my sump. The only flow I have is the 1" pvc overflow coming into the refugium...which was about 3" below the water surface. Yesterday I changed the pvc to approx 7 or 8" below the water surface...in hopes that perhaps the tank water would derive more benefits from the macro.....any thoughts?

[Joel_155]

I noticed that you mentioned you have extra LR in the the refugium. How clean is your refugium? Excess debris may be increasing your PO4 in your system. I ran into this with my 120 ( separate fuge ) and that why now I don't run one. Just my $.02

[Editour2]

I noticed that you mentioned you have extra LR in the the refugium. How clean is your refugium? Excess debris may be increasing your PO4 in your system. I ran into this with my 120 ( separate fuge ) and that why now I don't run one. Just my $.02

I have live rock in my sump and rock rubble in my refugium.....I vacuum out my sump occassionally since it's bare bottom but the refugium I leave alone.....I didn't want to suck out all of the little critters but I'm sure there is detrius in there....maybe I should put a filter sock on the feed.

[tmz]

IME, alge over sand and rubble makes a mess eventually. Alge exudate dosen't breakdown radily and clogs the substrate. I keep extra rock in a dark( cryptic) refugium and run a chaeto bin bare bottom . Flow is helpful

[Editour2]

IME, alge over sand and rubble makes a mess eventually. Alge exudate dosen't breakdown radily and clogs the substrate. I keep extra rock in a dark( cryptic) refugium and run a chaeto bin bare bottom . Flow is helpful

I'm sorry but I presume you are referring to the macro algae.....not sure what algae exudate is.......but are you recommending I remove all the rock rubble from the refugium ...clean it out and go bare bottom? Also, are you saying it would be beneficial to add a powerhead in there?
thanks

[bertoni]

Algae tend to release chemicals into the water. Some are a bit toxic, being part of the algae's defense system. Removing the substrate in the refugium might be an interesting idea to try, and it's easy to do. If there's a lot of live rock rubble, I might be very cautious and remove it slowly, since it might be doing a fair amount of filtration, but for most setups, there's so much more live rock in the tank that the rubble zone is redundant.

[Editour2]

Tested phosphates last night: RODI water....measured zero...so that's not a problem.
Measured the DT water again and I'm down to .80.....which I understand is still horrible however at least I'm heading in the right direction, (it was 1.09 on 06/24). Will continue to test and keep up on the regime outlined above.

[tmz]

I'm sorry but I presume you are referring to the macro algae.....not sure what algae exudate is.......but are you recommending I remove all the rock rubble from the refugium ...clean it out and go bare bottom? Also, are you saying it would be beneficial to add a powerhead in there?


thanks


Exudate is organic compounds released by aglae. Some include toxins for defense or perhaps grabbing territory.Exudates from algae are genrally refractory ( ie bacteria don't break them down very well). They tend to hang around and clog things up . They are not bio available as contrasted to coral slime for example.

I run my chaeto refugium bare bottom with about a 10x turnover flow through it to keep nutrients moving through. I don't think a powerhead would make much if any difference..

I agree; if you do choose to remove substrate and rubble, it's safer to do it incrementaly,'; say 4 /25% increments over a week or two.

[Reef Frog]

Glad your PO4 numbers are heading in the right direction. Consider testing the output water from your GFO reactor every day as an experiment. You'll discover the trend or time line for exhaustion. The levels on day one should be very low. When it nears or actually reaches your measured levels in the tank itself, you can assume its exhausted & can change it. Make sure you observe the reactors flow & see if the water is moving through ALL of the media, as opposed to channeling through only a small part. Make sure the reactor is absolutely level for best results. If you see the grains are clumping, channeling or otherwise completely immobile, turn up the flow briefly to mix things up. But you don't want the flow to be too vigorous. With high PO4 levels, you will probably go through GFO quickly as noted above, so buy in bulk.

[Editour2]

Glad your PO4 numbers are heading in the right direction. Consider testing the output water from your GFO reactor every day as an experiment. You'll discover the trend or time line for exhaustion. The levels on day one should be very low. When it nears or actually reaches your measured levels in the tank itself, you can assume its exhausted & can change it. Make sure you observe the reactors flow & see if the water is moving through ALL of the media, as opposed to channeling through only a small part. Make sure the reactor is absolutely level for best results. If you see the grains are clumping, channeling or otherwise completely immobile, turn up the flow briefly to mix things up. But you don't want the flow to be too vigorous. With high PO4 levels, you will probably go through GFO quickly as noted above, so buy in bulk.

thanks,
will do....

[jeremyjoslin]

IME, alge over sand and rubble makes a mess eventually. Alge exudate dosen't breakdown radily and clogs the substrate. I keep extra rock in a dark( cryptic) refugium and run a chaeto bin bare bottom . Flow is helpful

I believe I have the same problem with my refugium (macro algae plus rubble) causing hard-to-control phosphate levels in my system. I plan to move to your described method of bare bottom macro production.

Question: where do you see growth of various pod species and bristle worms which I would like to continue to propogate?

I have a remote tank acting as a cryptic refugium with LR only but don't see any lifeforms in there (running for 8 months).

[tmz]

I see them in the brute can I us for a cryptic area when I open it which is rarely. Plenty of feather dusters ,other worm tubes and other small other critters.;sponges too. Some day I'm going to look at the some of the gunk in the bottom under a microscope. I also see pods all over the tanks and in the caheto bin and the other bin I keep in ambient light which has deep sand with rock on top. Bristle worms seem to be everywhere. Whenever I clean I almost always catch an annoying bristle or two in my finger if I don't wear gloves No big deal but a little uncomfortable.

I'm not sure it causes PO4 but I think the clogged sand and rubble won't process much either and crap(nitrogenous waste and phospahorous and organic carbon ) just seems to accumulate in algae over sand and/or rubble set ups, ime.

[jeremyjoslin]

... and the other bin I keep in ambient light which has deep sand with rock on top.

Love the idea of multiple refugiums.... trying to sort out the several I have started.

In this one you mention with deep sand and rock on top...

- is this a Calfo-style, plain-jane RDSB or some fancy hybrid variation?
- why rock on top? this sounds like a place for detritus to get trapped?
- how deep is your DSB? I have reviewed several of your threads over the last few years on the subject.... did you settle at 2" deep, or has your position on DSB depth evolved?

To get back to the point of this thread, my phosphates are also a continuous problem that I'm trying to fix at the "problem level". Currently, I feel like my refugia are gravity sinks for detritus and probably a major cause of my nuisance algae problem.

[tmz]

Love the idea of multiple refugiums.... trying to sort out the several I have started.

In this one you mention with deep sand and rock on top...

- is this a Calfo-style, plain-jane RDSB or some fancy hybrid variation?
- why rock on top? this sounds like a place for detritus to get trapped?
- how deep is your DSB? I have reviewed several of your threads over the last few years on the subject.... did you settle at 2" deep, or has your position on DSB depth evolved?

To get back to the point of this thread, my phosphates are also a continuous problem that I'm trying to fix at the "problem level". Currently, I feel like my refugia are gravity sinks for detritus and probably a major cause of my nuisance algae problem.


I think refugia can serve as gravity sinks for detritus, unfortunately. Having said that , I intend to keep using them and don't clean mine very often.

About 6 or 7 years ago, I had trouble with high nitrates and PO4. Gfo could handle the PO4 but the nitrates were vexing. I decided to try a deep sand bed( 7inches deep in a 36 by 24 tub )to supplement the chaeto refugium .

Flow across the sand i is brisk ,ca 400g per hour.

After a while and some research I added the rock , larger pieces, to the top to encourage advective flow to move more nutrients and some detritus down into the sand. Diffusion alone is just too weak a force to make deep bed of sand productive ,ime . Not enough nutrients get down deep enough for much to occur deep in the bed. When water hits an obstruction like rock ,the water pressure drops under the footprint of the rock causing an upwelling and consequent downward flow into the bed. Think about sand under your fet when you are standing in a wave.

I would probably use a longer run and more surface area with less depth if I rebuilt it. I just left in in place. Don't think it could handle the DIN( dissoved norganic nitrogen,)without the other components , I have though.

I finally, beat the nitrates with a diy sulfur dentrator . Took that of line and have maintained them with moderate organic carbon doing combined with the various refugia. NO3 remains at .02ppm or less unless I choose boost it with sodium nitrate or aspartic acid. It' s been at those levels for about 5 years. PO4 goes to under .08ppm with th organic carbon dosing alone at the moderate amounts I choose to dose. So, I use a little gfo to get it down to >.03ppm range. This is with heavy feeding( over 2 ounces of froze foods, some flakes and nore, etc) for over 40 fish in the 650 gallon system.

Not sure what would happen if I removed or change the refugia set ups . they've been in place a long time and fit in well in my sytem.

[tmz]

PS for the most part my tanks have two inch beds or less beds. The remote bed started at 7 inches. I've just left it that way ,adding the rock to make it more productive. If nothing else I reckon this bed adds extra surface area for bacteria to colonize and processes some detritus. It is unlit and no algae or cyano grows there so it doesn't clog. A little sulfide shows up when I let the flow drop which indicates some anaerobic activity is going on. if I dig into it the down around 2 t o4 inches the sand looks as clean as the first day I put it in there; likely not much is going on down there .
It might be possible to run a sytem with a combination of refugia but I think they would have to be quite large. For now , I'm happy with a mix refugia, organic carbon dosing and a little gfo.

[Editour2]

4 month Update: I still have high phosphates...currently down to .5 ppm, measured Nitrates and they are high as well....don't have the # currently with me but it's high. All parameters are virtually the same as my begginning post except Alkalinity is now around 8.5 dkh. I have slowly increased my vinegar dosing and am now up to 200ml per night. I have doubled my water changes (around 30 gals per week now ESV salt), I cleaned out all of the rock rubble in my refugium (over a 5 wk period). I changed out all of my RODI filters even though my TDS meter was indicating no problems and the RODI water was measuring zero phosphates. I increased flow inside of my tank....2 tunze 6105's and 2 Jebao WP40's.

Alot of the corals I had are gone or slowly dying off. I lost most of my caps (some are coming back), all of the gps died off, I lost my pocillapora colony. My stylos are showing no ill effects. The tops of my corals that are left are constantly filled with debri (not sure what specifically it is). I blow off this debri on my coral and rocks every day with a turkey baster. I clean the glass of my tank at least 3 times a week. I have cyano bacteria on my sand bed which I syphon off daily, (I am also using special blend). I try to change my GFO and charcoal (BRS Dual Reactor) weekly...which I know should be more often. I clean my skimmer twice a week. This is extremely frustrating....I am trying to be diligent but it seems like I'm not making much progress here.

QUESTIONS:
When I dose the vinegar I mix the 200ml in a gallon of RODI water and add 1 heaping teaspoon of Kalwasser....should I be dosing the vinegar and kalkwasser separately? Am I dosing too much?

What else do I need to do? I am thinking of making/adding a denitrator and/or algae scrubber.....

This is insane....it is consuming too much of my time and the results just aren't there!!!!
Any help would be appreciated.

[bertoni]

Water changes are going to be expensive and probably not particularly effective. I suspect carbon won't help much, either.

If the nitrate level still is high, the tank is getting too much food for its nutrient export to handle. An algae scrubber or a denitrator might be a fine way to go. I don't know anything about the Orca skimmer, but a better skimmer might help, if that one isn't particularly effective. We don't have much useful data on skimmer effectiveness, though.

[Editour2]

Water changes are going to be expensive and probably not particularly effective. I suspect carbon won't help much, either.

If the nitrate level still is high, the tank is getting too much food for its nutrient export to handle. An algae scrubber or a denitrator might be a fine way to go. I don't know anything about the Orca skimmer, but a better skimmer might help, if that one isn't particularly effective. We don't have much useful data on skimmer effectiveness, though.

Can you comment on my question about mixing the vinegar with Kalkwasser? Is it less effective when mixed and if so should I dose separately?
I am surprised about the water changes not effectuating enough of a change.

[Editour2]

Can you comment on my question about mixing the vinegar with Kalkwasser? Is it less effective when mixed and if so should I dose separately?
I am surprised about the water changes not effectuating enough of a change.

Never mind....I saw that you responded to my other thread....thank you. I've been making an effort to keep the feeding down so I'm not sure about what else I can do.

[tmz]

When I dose the vinegar I mix the 200ml in a gallon of RODI water and add 1 heaping teaspoon of Kalwasser....should I be dosing the vinegar and kalkwasser separately? Am I dosing too much?

200ml for 300 gal or so total water volume is about all I would dose but each tank is different at volume .FWIW, I've been dosing around 336 ml of 80 proof vodka
( equals 368 ml 5% vinegar) plus 80 ml of vinegar for a total vinegar equvalent dose of about 448ml fo 650 gallons dialy for the past 5 years . If I go higher I get bacterial mass showing up. I dose it separate from kalk but don't think mixing in some kalk i harmful.

What else do I need to do? I am thinking of making/adding a denitrator and/or algae scrubber.

0.5 po4 is very high. Cleaning the sand and other tank areas along with enhanced skimming ,gfo and reduced feeding should result in a better balance in nutrient import and export.

[tmz]

The acidity of the vinegar keeps bacteria at bay; diluting it with water may result in bacteria using the organic carbon before dosing.
Kalk at 2 tsps per gallon and with 45 ml of vinegar provides high enough alkalinity to deter bacteria ;not sure about the pH of the 1 gallon ro plus 200ml vinegar 1 tsp kalk mix you are using.

How do you dose it ? timed pump/all at once?

[dkeller_nc]

Ok, this is a completely different thought to the phosphate issue, but what grade of calcium hydroxide (kalk) are you using? Not that this is a bad practice, many people do it, but adding vinegar to the kalk dissolution vessel -might- have the effect of solubilizing heavy metal contaminants. Lime, depending on the purity, does have some degree of contaminating copper and lead. That doesn't usually cause a problem because in a vessel that is used to dissolve/decant kalk with water only, the metals are insoluble and accumulate on the bottom.

Randy Holmes Farley has discussed this particular issue in one of his articles on calcium and alkalinity, I believe it was a Reefkeeping mag article, but it might've been an Advanced Aquarist article.

The reason I mention this is that while high phosphates would be expected to cause you problems with SPS corals, losing green star polyps due to high nutrients doesn't make any sense. In fact, most folks that have a "dirty" tank wind up with GSP being an absolute plague due to fast growth.

One other thought about managing phosphates - you have a lot of fish in that tank, so I would think most of your phosphate input to the system is the fish food by a wide margin. I would suggest that you discontinue all dry fish food - most of it contains a lot of fish/shrimp meal, and is highly concentrated in nutrients, including phosphates.

[Editour2]

The acidity of the vinegar keeps bacteria at bay; diluting it with water may result in bacteria using the organic carbon before dosing.
Kalk at 2 tsps per gallon and with 45 ml of vinegar provides high enough alkalinity to deter bacteria ;not sure about the pH of the 1 gallon ro plus 200ml vinegar 1 tsp kalk mix you are using.

How do you dose it ? timed pump/all at once?

I dose it via a drip line...about 2 to 3 drops per second in a high flow area of my sump.

[Editour2]

Ok, this is a completely different thought to the phosphate issue, but what grade of calcium hydroxide (kalk) are you using? Not that this is a bad practice, many people do it, but adding vinegar to the kalk dissolution vessel -might- have the effect of solubilizing heavy metal contaminants. Lime, depending on the purity, does have some degree of contaminating copper and lead. That doesn't usually cause a problem because in a vessel that is used to dissolve/decant kalk with water only, the metals are insoluble and accumulate on the bottom.

Randy Holmes Farley has discussed this particular issue in one of his articles on calcium and alkalinity, I believe it was a Reefkeeping mag article, but it might've been an Advanced Aquarist article.

The reason I mention this is that while high phosphates would be expected to cause you problems with SPS corals, losing green star polyps due to high nutrients doesn't make any sense. In fact, most folks that have a "dirty" tank wind up with GSP being an absolute plague due to fast growth.

One other thought about managing phosphates - you have a lot of fish in that tank, so I would think most of your phosphate input to the system is the fish food by a wide margin. I would suggest that you discontinue all dry fish food - most of it contains a lot of fish/shrimp meal, and is highly concentrated in nutrients, including phosphates.

I am using BRS Kalkwasser.....http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/brs-bulk-kalkwasser-calcium-hydroxide-aquarium-supplement.html

Regarding the GSP: it was flourishing in my tank ....I had to cut it back and then all of a sudden it shut down and then started to melt away. I just recently added some new gsp to the DT and so far so good. I was surprised as well that the GSP died off because I thought that you couldn't kill it even if you wanted.

I do use flake, pellets and frozen food....usually flake or pellets in the AM and frozen in the PM. I have cut back on all of these. I use quality food but will try your suggestion.

[Editour2]

Update:
Phosphate level down to .25 ppm, (still too high but improving), nitrates 1.25 ppm. I am continuing with 15% weekly water changes, (up from 5%), have cut down on feeding and have added an algae scrubber (added 2 wks ago). I must say that this whole situation is very frustrating.....I've lost 75% of my coral, I blow off all my coral and rock DAILY and I siphon my sandbed from brown algae and cyano DAILY. I am using filter bags on my return to the sump and change GFO & carbon weekly. I don't know what else to do but I'm getting tired of spending 2 hours a day with cleanup and not seeing the results I want after over 5 months with this issue. Hopefully I will win this battle soon..............before I give up !!!

[bertoni]

If the phosphate level still is 0.25 ppm, I'd stop all feeding for a week or so, and ramp up the GFO. A second opinion on the test kit might be useful, too.

[Editour2]

If the phosphate level still is 0.25 ppm, I'd stop all feeding for a week or so, and ramp up the GFO. A second opinion on the test kit might be useful, too.

I have the red sea phosphate/nitrate test kit and a Hanna phosphate checker....I will retest using both.....the .25 was from the red sea kit.

[Paul B]

Feeding regimen is: a good pinch of flake or pellets in the AM and 5 cubes of frozen mix in the evening, (I don't see any food being wasted...it is consumed in the tank). I've just begun feeding the corals a combination of reef frenzy, cyclopeeze and reef roids.....3 times a week.


Your tank is 3 times larger than mine and you have as many fish as I do (yours may be larger) and you feed about 5 times more than I do.
And virtually all my fish except my copperband are spawning including the 20 year old fireclowns so I know I feed enough.
I also would not use any flakes or pellets unless you have some fish that for some reason only eat pellets.
Your phosphates are coming from all that food no matter if they eat it or not, it is still going into the tank. (I hope you are thawing and rinsing that frozen food whatever it is)
I am not a big believer in dosers, vinegar, GFO, GAC, especially Kalk, sulfur dentrators,or almost any thing else that is not very natural. The bacteria in your tank, if not overtaxed will take care of everything with the help of a skimmer.
The only time my tank looked lousy was when I dosed Kalk. I almost crashed it with that.
I only add some driveway ice melter for calcium and baking soda for alk.
I believe to many people try to add things to correct something when the solution is to eliminate something, in your case I think it is food.
If your corals are growing on their bases, that's a great sign.
Many, if not most people will disagree with me about adding the chemicals and reactors, but remember, my reef has been running for 42 years. It is not the best tank on here by far, but the fact that it works without all that equipment means something to me.
My corals also go through cycles, some years they grow up the walls and sometimes they recede. I don't worry about such things and I don't know why it happens. It always straightens itself out without me adding all sorts of things that screw up the natural course of the cycle.
This even happens to reefs in the sea as I have seen first hand many times.
That thing about algae adding toxins I think is bunk. I love algae and feel it is the best thing you can have in a reef. The best my reef ever looked was when algae was growing. There is no algae in my tank now and for me that is a problem. If you have absolutely no algae growing, your reef may not be as healthy as you believe it to be.
Most threads about the presence of algae and nitrates are IMO wrong.
Algae grows on all healthy reefs and nitrates of about 20 are fine.
Just my opinions of course, you guys could send me hate mail later.
Have a great day. :beer:

[Editour2]

Your tank is 3 times larger than mine and you have as many fish as I do (yours may be larger) and you feed about 5 times more than I do.
And virtually all my fish except my copperband are spawning including the 20 year old fireclowns so I know I feed enough.
I also would not use any flakes or pellets unless you have some fish that for some reason only eat pellets.
Your phosphates are coming from all that food no matter if they eat it or not, it is still going into the tank. (I hope you are thawing and rinsing that frozen food whatever it is)
I am not a big believer in dosers, vinegar, GFO, GAC, especially Kalk, sulfur dentrators,or almost any thing else that is not very natural. The bacteria in your tank, if not overtaxed will take care of everything with the help of a skimmer.
The only time my tank looked lousy was when I dosed Kalk. I almost crashed it with that.
I only add some driveway ice melter for calcium and baking soda for alk.
I believe to many people try to add things to correct something when the solution is to eliminate something, in your case I think it is food.
If your corals are growing on their bases, that's a great sign.
Many, if not most people will disagree with me about adding the chemicals and reactors, but remember, my reef has been running for 42 years. It is not the best tank on here by far, but the fact that it works without all that equipment means something to me.
My corals also go through cycles, some years they grow up the walls and sometimes they recede. I don't worry about such things and I don't know why it happens. It always straightens itself out without me adding all sorts of things that screw up the natural course of the cycle.
This even happens to reefs in the sea as I have seen first hand many times.
That thing about algae adding toxins I think is bunk. I love algae and feel it is the best thing you can have in a reef. The best my reef ever looked was when algae was growing. There is no algae in my tank now and for me that is a problem. If you have absolutely no algae growing, your reef may not be as healthy as you believe it to be.
Most threads about the presence of algae and nitrates are IMO wrong.
Algae grows on all healthy reefs and nitrates of about 20 are fine.
Just my opinions of course, you guys could send me hate mail later.
Have a great day. :beer:

Can I ask you what exactly are you feeding on a daily basis? and yes I rinse the frozen food prior to feeding.....I am down to using 90% frozen foods...averaging only 3 cubes daily in total.

[Breadman03]

Can I ask you what exactly are you feeding on a daily basis? and yes I rinse the frozen food prior to feeding.....I am down to using 90% frozen foods...averaging only 3 cubes daily in total.

Live worms. Let me see if I can find a link to his thread...

...search isn't working right now. I can only find threads from 04-05 and it says Paul only has like 250 posts.

[tmz]

No hate mail Paul. How are you? A few thoughts

High nitrates even 10ppm are unhealthy for sps corals ime. It's a pretty common problem for many of them particularly seriatopora and sensitive acropora; some montipora species too.

Flake foods are fine if they have a good protein to phosphate ratio; Prime Reef flakes for example have a better ratio than most frozen foods. I feed a mix of mysis, brine, bloodworms and cyclopeeze daily to the 50 fish in my system. I add nori ,krill and some Prime Reef Flake and spirulina every other day. I like variety.The fish are healthy ,long lived and colorful, the 6 clownfish pairs, bangais and erectus seahorses breed regularly .

Kalk ( lime/calcium hydroxide) is very natural much purer than driveway deicer I've used it for years. When dosed properly it is an excellent calcium and alkalinity supplement that self purifies. As noted earlier I prefer to dose vinegar and vodka separate form calcium hydroxide. There may be some cause for concerns when adding vinegar to less than fully saturated Kalwasser. Vodka and vinegar are about the same. Vinegar requires slow dosing over a period of time to avoid precipitous pH drops . Vodka can be dosed at once but comes in smaller doses 8x stonger than vinegar which maybe inconvenient for some. Both are just food for bacteria which in the end provide acetate a substance useful to living things;the y also take up nitrogen and phosphate and are in turn exportable via skimming

Algae does add toxins.It can and has overtaken natural reefs. The open ocean has a lot more dilution than a closed sytem and more pedation on algae too. So the comparison to a closed system is to borrow a phrase is "bunk". Some algae is ok if you like to look at it but it can get out of control quite easily in an aquarium and do some damage. Personally I don't mind a little now an then,particulary phytoplanton.

I agree food is the primary contributor for phopshate. it doesn't matter much if it's eaten or not since most animals expel most of it as excess along with excess nitrogen. So, if you want to drop nutrients feed less to fewer animals or enhance export methods.

[Paul B]

No hate mail Paul. How are you? A few thoughts


TMZ, buddy, I never do hate mail. Everyone has their own opinions from their experiences.
I feed live worms every day with a little clam or frozen mysis but the bulk of the food is live whiteworms and blackworms. My fish are also spawning, all of them (except the copperband, I wish)
IMO the OP has a problem because of overfeeding, nothing more. All of that stuff that is added could be eliminated if there was less food.
I also believe a nitrate reading of 10 is to low. It's just me, although I realize that is what most people strive for. In the years I have ran my tank the nitrates usually were about 10, but when they went to 40 while I was away, I noticed a growth spurt and all the corals looked much better including the montipora's which are now all over my tank. When the nitrates were 10, they didn't do much of anything. My acropora also has doubled in side in about 6 months with high nitrates. I have no idea why.
You are correct about kalk being more pure than driveway de icer but according to Randy there is one type that is pure (I forget the name) and that is what I have been using for many years. I spent about $5.00 on it over about 10 years.
I think that assumption about the algae is wrong. My reef has had large cycles of hair algae and macro that lasted a few months and in those times, the corals looked fine, even better than when there was no algae growing. Again, I don't know why, but I assume because of that, algae is not a bad thing, but a very good thing. There is no algae in mytank now and that disturbs me. My PO4 is high as is my nitrates so this week I am going down tothe sea to collect a large amount of mud and seawater to seed my tank. To me, no algae = problems.
So TMZ yes I know I am wierd. Wierd and bald, what can I say but I come to these conclusions after over fifty years of doing this and making plenty of mistakes and killing multitudes of fish and corals.
I can't believe you mentioned hate mail. I never do that. Ilike everyone, even bald people and liberals. Well, some of them anyway. :beer:
I know it's not a great tank, but not bad for a nitrate reading of 40

I keep breaking that montipora and glueing it back

http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh270/urchsearch/2013-05-11112041_zpsbe3cfbda.jpg (http://s258.photobucket.com/user/urchsearch/media/2013-05-11112041_zpsbe3cfbda.jpg.html)
http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh270/urchsearch/2013-06-14111804_zpsacbe7125.jpg (http://s258.photobucket.com/user/urchsearch/media/2013-06-14111804_zpsacbe7125.jpg.html)

Here is a picture of that clown gobi fry, taken through my vintage microscope this week.

http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh270/urchsearch/Clowngobifry_zpsf1e5f947.jpg (http://s258.photobucket.com/user/urchsearch/media/Clowngobifry_zpsf1e5f947.jpg.html)

[Breadman03]

Live worms. Let me see if I can find a link to his thread...

...search isn't working right now. I can only find threads from 04-05 and it says Paul only has like 250 posts.

White worms, black worms (http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2290956)

Worms as Food (http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2285741)

Blackworm keeper (http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1770506)

These should be a good start.

[tmz]

you guys could send me hate mail later.

Paul,
my reference to no hate mail was in response to the above statement you made;; I was assuring you that my response was not hate mail.

We disagree on several points but have always done so as friends and hope to continue that .

[Dashylock]

I think refugia can serve as gravity sinks for detritus, unfortunately. Having said that , I intend to keep using them and don't clean mine very often.

About 6 or 7 years ago, I had trouble with high nitrates and PO4. Gfo could handle the PO4 but the nitrates were vexing. I decided to try a deep sand bed( 7inches deep in a 36 by 24 tub )to supplement the chaeto refugium .

Flow across the sand i is brisk ,ca 400g per hour.

After a while and some research I added the rock , larger pieces, to the top to encourage advective flow to move more nutrients and some detritus down into the sand. Diffusion alone is just too weak a force to make deep bed of sand productive ,ime . Not enough nutrients get down deep enough for much to occur deep in the bed. When water hits an obstruction like rock ,the water pressure drops under the footprint of the rock causing an upwelling and consequent downward flow into the bed. Think about sand under your fet when you are standing in a wave.

I would probably use a longer run and more surface area with less depth if I rebuilt it. I just left in in place. Don't think it could handle the DIN( dissoved norganic nitrogen,)without the other components , I have though.

I finally, beat the nitrates with a diy sulfur dentrator . Took that of line and have maintained them with moderate organic carbon doing combined with the various refugia. NO3 remains at .02ppm or less unless I choose boost it with sodium nitrate or aspartic acid. It' s been at those levels for about 5 years. PO4 goes to under .08ppm with th organic carbon dosing alone at the moderate amounts I choose to dose. So, I use a little gfo to get it down to >.03ppm range. This is with heavy feeding( over 2 ounces of froze foods, some flakes and nore, etc) for over 40 fish in the 650 gallon system.

Not sure what would happen if I removed or change the refugia set ups . they've been in place a long time and fit in well in my sytem.

Are you an engineer - a few words kind of gave it away: advection, straight run, and pressure drop...now you're speaking my language!

[Paul B]

Paul,
my reference to no hate mail was in response to the above statement you made;; I was assuring you that my response was not hate mail.

We disagree on several points but have always done so as friends and hope to continue that .


Oh, that hate mail. Tom, of course we are friends. There is absolutely no way anyone on a fish site could get me mad. (unless of course they called me bald, I really hate that, and don't even think it's true) :furious:
I also realize I don't hardly have the nicest tank on here by far. :wavehand:

I only posted that picture of the monti to show that it does seem to live with high nitrates "and" low nitrates. I don't think it cares one way or the other. Of course I don't have any test kits so the corals have to guess at the readings. I let a LFS measure them but I don't let the corals know.

[Editour2]

Update:
Phosphate level down to .25 ppm, (still too high but improving), nitrates 1.25 ppm. I am continuing with 15% weekly water changes, (up from 5%), have cut down on feeding and have added an algae scrubber (added 2 wks ago). I must say that this whole situation is very frustrating.....I've lost 75% of my coral, I blow off all my coral and rock DAILY and I siphon my sandbed from brown algae and cyano DAILY. I am using filter bags on my return to the sump and change GFO & carbon weekly. I don't know what else to do but I'm getting tired of spending 2 hours a day with cleanup and not seeing the results I want after over 5 months with this issue. Hopefully I will win this battle soon..............before I give up !!!

Okay....back to my issue:
Last night I tested the tank again using my Hanna phosphate checker....the reading was .11 ppm...the previous reading of .26ppm was actually taken about 8 days ago with my Red Sea test kit. The original phosphate reading (6 months ago of 1.09ppm was also from my Hanna). I didn't check the nitrates last night but they are around 1.5 ppm. Alkalinity is approx 9.1dkh. I have decreased my feeding by more than half....finally starting to see some progress in the readings but I'm still experiencing alot of brown algae and cyano in the tank. Also, for some reason I can't keep my ph constant.....I know that ph drops during the night but....even with dosing Kalk I am at around 8.1 during the day and last night the ph dropped to around 7.70. Never ending issues...........

[tmz]

Well a swing from 7.7 to 8.1 is normal and probably ok. 7.7 is as low as I'd let it go.7.8 asa low point wuld be better since some coral skelton can begin to dissolve at much below 7.7. FWIW, mine runs from 8.05 at night to 8.35 during the day. I sue a CO2 scrubber.
.11ppm is muh better but still needs to go down some to around .05ppm or a bit less, imo.

[tmz]

Paul. I have always liked your tank and some of your methods and enjoy your passion for it. I do disagree with some of your positions as you do mine. The orange carpicornus is pretty tolerant , I grow alot of it in varying nitrate levels( I run a couple of tanks off the main system whith higher nutreints and different corals). It gets richer color and growth in lower nitrate water ,ime. Hope you had a nice veteran's day sarge.

[Paul B]

I do disagree with some of your positions as you do mine.
Right now I am in the sitting position, but I will stand as soon as my pancakes are ready.

Tom, most people disagree with my methods, I even disagree with some of them as I can't figure out why some things seem to work in spite of them being so far out of the box that they can't even find the box, but as you know, I started this tank before there was a box, when no one knew anything about nothing so I had to do it with no input and certainly no computers. I killed a lot of fish. But I learned a lot of things. Much, or almost all of our methods in this hobby came about from personal experiences of hobbiests as scientists are not aquarists. Unfortunately there is a lot of missinformation because there are so many people doing this and so many of them have one or two years of experience so if they do something, like add a sea hare and their algae disappears, that becomes fact that that is what we should do. I have had maybe 25 sea hares over 40 years. They eat algae, but then poop back in the tank. Sometimes the algae disappears and it becomes fact. But the fact is that algae disappears on it's own anyway so you could put a pair of Nike sneakers in your tank and the algae will also disappear.
Ich also. We know all there is to know about ich, correct? No, we don't. If we did, my tank, and a lot of others who don't quarantine could not exist. It lives forever in a tank with fish, doesn't it? It is a time bomb that will kill your fish some day, isn't it? No it is not. Corals need low nitrates, don't they? Maybe some of them do, but some like high nitrates. Hair algae is bad, isn't it? No, it grows on every reef in the sea and if it does not, there is something wrong. To me this is common sence. And I am an electrician. But I have spent about 250 hours underwater studying this stuff, so when I see hair algae on a reef I say to myself, Hey Paul, look at all that hair algae on that reef over there. I thought it was not supposed to grow on the reef. Then I argue with myself.
I also know how to keep fish healthy so they keep spawning, don't ever get sick and don't need to be quarantined, but there is that hate mail again so I can't say things like that.
You, my friend are a very good aquarist but you have some different methods than I do. I don't know where you learned what you know but your methods also work. There is no majic pill, but there are "some" methods that most people won't argue with , like getting a fish into a condition where it will resist diseases and live forever.
I also know how I could keep an almost perfect tank "if" I had the time, space and money to do it. A lifetime is a long time to aquire and interpret information and I have been doing this for almost 60 years. There are so many things I don't know (such as why Supermodels don't want to date me) but I have also learned many things that from "first hand experience" works. Not from just reading someone else's accounts.
Right now 2/3s of the lights over myalgae trough are not working and I could see a big difference in my corals. I know that if I made a larger algae trough (or filter) or lit it brighter, my corals would grow up the walls. I don't have time to fix it now and I lost some heads on some corals. I also know that if I get the time next week I am going to the sea to collect some water and mud. I know without a doubt, that will perk up my tank.
So without any more rambling, I for get mypoint of this entire rant, but that is the reason we have different opinions. Most people learned from almost everyone else in the internet, which is fine but it narrows the information base. I learned in the ocean and from killing animals for a few decades.
Pancakes are ready so I will now get into a pancake eating position.
Have a great day and Tom, of course we are friends. :wave:
Yes, I did have a nice Veterans Day, Thank you.

I took this 3 weeks ago in Hawaii. For some reason the tangs left and hair algae is growing all over the place. I did not test the nitrates.

http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh270/urchsearch/2013-10-19081423_zps0230527b.jpg (http://s258.photobucket.com/user/urchsearch/media/2013-10-19081423_zps0230527b.jpg.html)

Here I am trying to explain the presence of hair algae growing 50' deep to myself.

http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh270/urchsearch/2013-10-11050510_zpsf2c2cc1d.jpg (http://s258.photobucket.com/user/urchsearch/media/2013-10-11050510_zpsf2c2cc1d.jpg.html)

[Editour2]

Well a swing from 7.7 to 8.1 is normal and probably ok. 7.7 is as low as I'd let it go.7.8 asa low point wuld be better since some coral skelton can begin to dissolve at much below 7.7. FWIW, mine runs from 8.05 at night to 8.35 during the day. I sue a CO2 scrubber.
.11ppm is muh better but still needs to go down some to around .05ppm or a bit less, imo.

This morning the ph was 7.87....I'll record what it is at the peak of the day. I'm happy that the phosphates have declined to .11 and will continue to strive for .05ppm....right now I am still having issues with brown algae and cyano all over my remaining corals and sandbed....I'm hoping that since the tank parameters are improving that this issue will soon dissipate as well. My GSP is still not opening as normal and neither is my blue sympodium....can't figure that out either.

Paul.....I thank you for your comments and appreciate it along with your sense of humor.

[Paul B]

What sense of humor? :spin2:

It's a hobby, it is supposed to make you happy, or else, what's the sense?

[Editour2]

Update: well it's been 7 months since I discovered my high phophates ....I tested again last night and to my delight the phosphates were ZERO !! I couldn't believe it so I retested. ZERO again......tank is coming back to life...the corals that survived are exhibiting growth that I have never experienced in the 2 years that this tank has been up and running. I am a happy camper....I attribute this to due diligence, the addition of an algae turf scrubber, persistent water changes, weekly gfo and carbon changes and an extreme reduction of feeding. I basically have stopped feeding pellets...rarely feed flake...I feed mostly rinsed frozen foods...about 3 cubes per day and that's it. I also reduced my vinegar dosing from 200ml a day to 100ml per day. I believe that at some point the 200ml was getting to be too much...I'm still experimenting, but seem to find a happy medium with 100 per day, (right now anyway). Time to add new frags......
thanks everyone for your help it was a rough 6 months....another learning experience.

[Geeray]

Update: well it's been 7 months since I discovered my high phophates ....I tested again last night and to my delight the phosphates were ZERO !! I couldn't believe it so I retested. ZERO again......tank is coming back to life...the corals that survived are exhibiting growth that I have never experienced in the 2 years that this tank has been up and running. I am a happy camper....I attribute this to due diligence, the addition of an algae turf scrubber, persistent water changes, weekly gfo and carbon changes and an extreme reduction of feeding. I basically have stopped feeding pellets...rarely feed flake...I feed mostly rinsed frozen foods...about 3 cubes per day and that's it. I also reduced my vinegar dosing from 200ml a day to 100ml per day. I believe that at some point the 200ml was getting to be too much...I'm still experimenting, but seem to find a happy medium with 100 per day, (right now anyway). Time to add new frags......
thanks everyone for your help it was a rough 6 months....another learning experience.

Congrats, I just read through this thread and it seemed like you were about to give up a few months ago...

[bertoni]

That does sound like good progress!

[tmz]

Sounds good.
I'd be a bit cautious about pushing for 0 PO4 and/or 0 nitrate ;I prefer some detectable level in the water ; 0.02 to 0.04ppm PO4 works petty well or me in terms of limited nuisance algae and coral growth and color.

[Lion-o]

Editour,

I know I'm a little late but just wanted to say I'm impressed by your persistence fighting your phosphates. 2 hours a day of tank maintenance would definitely probably convince me to throw in the towel.

My phosphates aren't nearly as bad but I have been fighting some nuisance algae for a while. I'm not sure what kind it is ... maybe hair, it is stringy and green. My tank has been up around 5 years now and everything is very healthy. The only issue is when I go on extended vacations (last year I went on sabbatical to Japan..) I have no one maintaining my tank and the algae blooms and takes corals out. So, I continue to pick it out on a weekly basis, change media, do water changes, etc.

Two questions for you - when you rinse your frozen food how do you do it? Typically I just mix a few cubes into a glass of RO water and then turkey baste a little bit in every day for dinner. I'm probably getting a lot of nutrient excess from that...

Also, could you share your algae scrubber design? I actually went out and purchased one for myself (SantaMonica's Surf 2) and ran it for something like 8 months to a year before I just gave up on it. The thing never gave me harvestable growth, and after that sabbatical all I was ever able to get out of it was gross slime. Not sure if I could grow algae in a scrubber or not, I've got a pretty small sump under my Elos Midi.

[Editour2]

Editour,

I know I'm a little late but just wanted to say I'm impressed by your persistence fighting your phosphates. 2 hours a day of tank maintenance would definitely probably convince me to throw in the towel.

My phosphates aren't nearly as bad but I have been fighting some nuisance algae for a while. I'm not sure what kind it is ... maybe hair, it is stringy and green. My tank has been up around 5 years now and everything is very healthy. The only issue is when I go on extended vacations (last year I went on sabbatical to Japan..) I have no one maintaining my tank and the algae blooms and takes corals out. So, I continue to pick it out on a weekly basis, change media, do water changes, etc.

Two questions for you - when you rinse your frozen food how do you do it? Typically I just mix a few cubes into a glass of RO water and then turkey baste a little bit in every day for dinner. I'm probably getting a lot of nutrient excess from that...

Also, could you share your algae scrubber design? I actually went out and purchased one for myself (SantaMonica's Surf 2) and ran it for something like 8 months to a year before I just gave up on it. The thing never gave me harvestable growth, and after that sabbatical all I was ever able to get out of it was gross slime. Not sure if I could grow algae in a scrubber or not, I've got a pretty small sump under my Elos Midi.

It took a long time and I did consider giving up BUT.....perserverance. Things are much better now.....really don't have to clean inside the tank anymore...no cyano or diatoms etc. I clean the glass front about 2 to 3 times a week...light build up. I dose vinegar ....I maxxed out at 200ml per day but now only use half that....after getting phosphates under relative control the 200ml was having a reverse effect....100 ml per day seems to work perfectly. Rinsing the food is easy....I put 3 or 4 cubes in a cup of tank water....when the food melts...I empty the cup/cubes into a fine mesh fish net and then I run regular water over that for a couple of seconds. That's it! My main issue was over feeding.....I've cut down to less than 1/3 of what I used to feed. Regarding the algae scrubber ....I followed this thread:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1977420
It's a long thread....be sure to follow the REVISED plans.....
Frank

[Lion-o]

Thanks :) I've actually seen that thread. And from there went to algaescrubbers.net and ended up buying the one that never worked out for me. It relied on bubbles though rather than downward flow so it very might of well have simply been a flow issue. Hard to say for sure.

I'm not sure if i have the time or patience to build my own nano screen scrubber though :P

I've also been considering getting a phosban reactor OR starting to dose with carbon. At the moment I'm pretty on the fence as to which would possibly benefit our situation more. Our phosphates are low (not 0), but plenty for the green hair to grow just fine!