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Deinonych
07/01/2013, 11:25 AM
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/blog/hawaii-approves-aquarium-fish-collection-limits

Will be interesting to see what species will be prohibited. I'm sure we'll see prices for Hawaiian fish going up. Glad I got my Kole Tang before this happened.

alton
07/01/2013, 11:45 AM
How can you pass a bill and not know what is in it, or not know what it is going to affect? Sounds like a health care bill.

Deinonych
07/01/2013, 12:00 PM
Seems to be par for the course in politics these days.

Reeferhead
07/01/2013, 01:40 PM
This is well overdue legislation IMO. The bigger question is how well it will be implemented and enforced.

NewOne81
07/01/2013, 03:47 PM
The list of newly prohibited fish should be interesting

Fishfirst
07/01/2013, 07:26 PM
Seems to be par for the course in politics these days.

unfortunately. It does not surprise me whatsoever.

coralreefdoc
07/02/2013, 04:55 AM
This is well overdue legislation IMO. The bigger question is how well it will be implemented and enforced.

Agreed.

Unfortunately, most greedy/closed-minded/self-righteous people on here will not ! These are the same people that kill half the animals they buy, just to turn around and buy more without any changes to the misinformed/unknowledgable/sloppy way they keep their aquarium(s) ...

Fortunately, those same lazy/self-centered/irresponsible idiots, who have all the necessary information to improve conditions for these organisms right in front of their clueless faces, won't have as much negative/ill effect on the Hawaiian Islands anymore ... I've always said, "You should have to obtain a strict, knowledge/experience/etc based permit in order to buy/keep saltwater fish/invertebrates/etc" ! There's too many fkn idiots out there killing these amazing, already threatened organisms at an alarming rate. Chances are, if you even have to think or make your usual weak/lame excuses about all the life you've lost/killed, you're likely one of those "idiots" for lack of a better censored word

alton
07/02/2013, 05:53 AM
Agreed.

Unfortunately, most greedy/closed-minded/self-righteous people on here will not ! These are the same people that kill half the animals they buy, just to turn around and buy more without any changes to the misinformed/unknowledgable/sloppy way they keep their aquarium(s) ...

Fortunately, those same lazy/self-centered/irresponsible idiots, who have all the necessary information to improve conditions for these organisms right in front of their clueless faces, won't have as much negative/ill effect on the Hawaiian Islands anymore ... I've always said, "You should have to obtain a strict, knowledge/experience/etc based permit in order to buy/keep saltwater fish/invertebrates/etc" ! There's too many fkn idiots out there killing these amazing, already threatened organisms at an alarming rate. Chances are, if you even have to think or make your usual weak/lame excuses about all the life you've lost/killed, you're likely one of those "idiots" for lack of a better censored word

Really all I said is if you are going to come up with a law citizens should know what is in it? Sounds like they came up with a law to get people off there backs? People of Hawaii have all the rights to protect what is thiers, it just seems today we pass laws that make us feel good with no teeth, laws that are covering items that already on the books, or laws that extend beyond what they where intended for. I hope you don't have an aquarium because if you do are still contributing to the taking of fish from the ocean which some would deam as evil! If you want to conserve the collecting of fish in Hawaii to where it will last forever all you have to do is create a slot or limit the size of all fish collected like is done in Texas where the Redfish and Trout numbers are awesome.
The picture of all the dead yellow tangs that keeps coming up seems staged, I have never seen those large of tangs in any of my fish stores in 30+ years.

KafudaFish
07/02/2013, 07:45 AM
Agreed.

Unfortunately, most greedy/closed-minded/self-righteous people on here will not ! These are the same people that kill half the animals they buy, just to turn around and buy more without any changes to the misinformed/unknowledgable/sloppy way they keep their aquarium(s) ...

Fortunately, those same lazy/self-centered/irresponsible idiots, who have all the necessary information to improve conditions for these organisms right in front of their clueless faces, won't have as much negative/ill effect on the Hawaiian Islands anymore ... I've always said, "You should have to obtain a strict, knowledge/experience/etc based permit in order to buy/keep saltwater fish/invertebrates/etc" ! There's too many fkn idiots out there killing these amazing, already threatened organisms at an alarming rate. Chances are, if you even have to think or make your usual weak/lame excuses about all the life you've lost/killed, you're likely one of those "idiots" for lack of a better censored word


Just curious but how would one gain that experience without actually keeping fish and inverts? By that logic you would have to have the experience before keeping those animals.

Also it must be nice to have immortal fish because every fish I have ever bought will die at some point. Sure it may take 10 years, but if it is a wild specimen the moment it is removed from the reef it is pretty much dead for that system.

albano
07/02/2013, 07:52 AM
Unfortunately, most greedy/closed-minded/self-righteous people on here will not !
......
Blah, blah, blah...


Unfortunately, some greedy/closed-minded/self-righteous people will try to show their 'superiority' ... Talk about clueless!!!!

What's really needed is a permit for 'better than you/know it alls'...





Yes, I have applied!
:rolleyes:

rworegon
07/02/2013, 07:55 AM
Agreed.

Unfortunately, most greedy/closed-minded/self-righteous people on here will not ! These are the same people that kill half the animals they buy, just to turn around and buy more without any changes to the misinformed/unknowledgable/sloppy way they keep their aquarium(s) ...

Fortunately, those same lazy/self-centered/irresponsible idiots, who have all the necessary information to improve conditions for these organisms right in front of their clueless faces, won't have as much negative/ill effect on the Hawaiian Islands anymore ... I've always said, "You should have to obtain a strict, knowledge/experience/etc based permit in order to buy/keep saltwater fish/invertebrates/etc" ! There's too many fkn idiots out there killing these amazing, already threatened organisms at an alarming rate. Chances are, if you even have to think or make your usual weak/lame excuses about all the life you've lost/killed, you're likely one of those "idiots" for lack of a better censored word

Wow, I guess you started out as an expert fish guru. How arrogant.

A Reef Scene
07/02/2013, 08:00 AM
It all depends on how it is enforced and what is on the list. If the fish are all ready threatened then its a good thing. The other side of the coin is that people put fish on the list with no data to back it up.

Bratyboy2
07/02/2013, 08:33 AM
Unfortunately, some greedy/closed-minded/self-righteous people will try to show their 'superiority' ... Talk about clueless!!!!

What's really needed is a permit for 'better than you/know it alls'...





Yes, I have applied!
:rolleyes:

I live for when threads come to this!
Ding ding! Round 1!

In all seriousness I apparently need to get my fish now that I know will be on that list! Off to make a few calls!

jdhuyvetter
07/02/2013, 10:00 AM
Oh yeah, this thread is going down! Hopefully, coralreefdoc will tell us what he really thinks about all of "us" idiots!

IBTL

albano
07/02/2013, 11:07 AM
I live for when threads come to this!
Ding ding! Round 1!


It's already over... Judges gave me the win by VKO !
(Virtual Knock Out)

Bratyboy2
07/02/2013, 11:36 AM
It's already over... Judges gave me the win by VKO !
(Virtual Knock Out)

Well its not over till we hear the rebuttal lol then we can determine if he is knowledgeable to not be one of "us idiots" then again I'm pretty sure he has already but I love ruffling some feathers

billsreef
07/02/2013, 07:00 PM
Here at Reef Central, we believe that dialogs between participants should be conducted in a friendly and helpful manner. If you disagree with a posting, please express yourself in a way that is conducive to further constructive dialog. Conversely, when you post on any given subject, you must be willing to accept constructive criticism without posting a hostile or inflammatory response. Personal attacks of any kind will not be tolerated. Please work to insure that Reef Central remains a friendly and flame free site where everyone, especially newcomers, can feel free to post questions without fear of being unfairly criticized. Thank you for your cooperation.

billsreef
07/02/2013, 07:31 PM
The actual rules they voted are on here (http://files.hawaii.gov/dlnr/meeting/submittals/130628/F-DAR-Submittals-F2.pdf). The "white" list is way down towards the bottom. From most of what I've seen of the process for this, it's based primarily on emotion and the idea that reducing the number of species collected will reduce the work load of the department...actual fisheries science appears to have little to nothing to do with it.

Deinonych
07/02/2013, 08:54 PM
Thanks for posting that, Bill. There are some notable omissions from that whitelist, including the two native Rhinecanthus species as well as a couple of other triggerfish (O. niger, M. vidua), and some butterflyfish (C. lunula in particular). Maybe those species are not common to the areas specified in the document?

jimlin
07/03/2013, 02:51 AM
im sure it wont affect all fishes from hawaii. looks to me like it will only be implemented on the big island. in the aquarium trade, we should be looking for ways to breed fish for aquarium use rather than collect from the wild anyways so this move makes sense and tank bred fish seems to do better in an aquarium in my opinion.

alton
07/03/2013, 06:10 AM
Bill thanks for posting the rules/list which should of been included in the blog. Although I am against more government, I do agree with some of the rules.

Deinonych
07/03/2013, 07:18 AM
im sure it wont affect all fishes from hawaii. looks to me like it will only be implemented on the big island. in the aquarium trade, we should be looking for ways to breed fish for aquarium use rather than collect from the wild anyways so this move makes sense and tank bred fish seems to do better in an aquarium in my opinion.

Agreed. I would love to see more tank-bred fish available.

alton
07/03/2013, 08:35 AM
Agreed. I would love to see more tank-bred fish available.

Incase you don't subscribe to Coral

http://www.reef2rainforest.com/2013/01/03/coral-magazines-captive-bred-marine-fish-species-list-for-2013/

The list is growing

Da Maui life
07/03/2013, 12:35 PM
Unfortunately, some greedy/closed-minded/self-righteous people will try to show their 'superiority' ... Talk about clueless!!!!

What's really needed is a permit for 'better than you/know it alls'...





Yes, I have applied!
:rolleyes:

Permits and License are, already in place.

(DAR) the Division of Aquatic Resources issues various permits and licenses for fishing, selling aquatic life, and other activities involving aquatic resources.


Commercial Marine License are required for anyone to take marine life for commercial purpose. "selling aquatic life"


Aquarium Permit - required for any person to use fine mesh net for collecting aquatic life for an aquarium. Report required if commercial.

Aquaculture Dealer License - required for any dealer, retailer, wholesaler, or restaurant to resell requlated marine life faised in a licensed aquaculture facility

Da Maui life
07/03/2013, 12:42 PM
im sure it wont affect all fishes from hawaii. looks to me like it will only be implemented on the big island. in the aquarium trade, we should be looking for ways to breed fish for aquarium use rather than collect from the wild anyways so this move makes sense and tank bred fish seems to do better in an aquarium in my opinion.

Hawaii's Kona side not island wide, this can affect the other seven island.

jimlin
07/03/2013, 01:37 PM
Hawaii's Kona side not island wide, this can affect the other seven island.
how so?

Deinonych
07/03/2013, 01:51 PM
Incase you don't subscribe to Coral

http://www.reef2rainforest.com/2013/01/03/coral-magazines-captive-bred-marine-fish-species-list-for-2013/

The list is growing

Thanks!

coralreefdoc
07/04/2013, 08:01 PM
[violation]

Nanook
07/04/2013, 10:52 PM
Take some time away to think about things.

Borchers
07/04/2013, 11:33 PM
I see no harm in Hawwii trying to limit what is taken from their waters as with any place placing the restrictions. We have to look at it this way...they are not banning the collection. It will take time to properly get the laws enforced. Will we see higher prices at the LFS, maybe . But the question is will the average buyer think more on the purchase and make sure he or she is ready to pay the premium price for a beautiful fish and have the proper system to maintain him? I know I would. It's like any other thing in life we have to get used the change. Just my 2 cents.

Prodigy
07/05/2013, 01:10 AM
It hopefully make people think more about there buying before going through fish and other creatures carelessly like coralreefdoc said. And if they do not like many don't this law will be protecting them better from those "idiots" haha.

Quirkyeyes
07/06/2013, 09:43 PM
I think a message that needs to get across is that those who get fish need to be responsible keepers sure you can take a fish out of the ocean for your tank but its a lot differnt if you do that and it dies and you replace it 5 times completely differnt ecological factor

billsreef
07/07/2013, 05:38 AM
I think a message that needs to get across is that those who get fish need to be responsible keepers sure you can take a fish out of the ocean for your tank but its a lot differnt if you do that and it dies and you replace it 5 times completely differnt ecological factor

That's not an ecological factor, it's an emotional factor. As far as the ocean concerned, any fish taken out of the ocean is as good as dead...even the one that lives in a well kept fish tank for 20 years.

Timfish
07/07/2013, 11:22 AM
Thank you Bill for posting the link to the white list from Hawai'is Division of Aquatic Resources (DAR) I want to point out none of the four bills introduced into the Hawai'i legislature in 2013 passed that would have had significant impacts on the aquarium collection trade. This is an update to legislation that already exists and from my understanding applies primarily Kona and the West Hawai'i Regional Management Areas which only applies to the west coast of the island Hawai'i. This area already has both older Fishery Management Areas (FMA) and Fishery Replenishment Areas (FRA) which were established in 1999, nieither of which have allowed any collection since their establishment. As I understand it besides the white list it seems is largely clarifiying boundaries and not changing much else. With regard to the white list I would refer readers to DAR's 2010 report which stated Yellow and Kole Tangs account for 91% of the ornamental fish catch and showed an increase in population through 2009 in the FMA, FRA and open areas http://hawaii.gov/dlnr/dar/pubs/ar_hrs188F5v2.pdf (A chart including the 2010 population increase is here: http://hawaiibanfactcheck.org/?page_id=114 ) While I find "white lists" potentially more troublesome than "black lists" this one doesn't seem to me will have much impact for marine aqaurists as it stands.

Looking at table 3 in the DAR report it's curious to note that while the Yellow and Kole Tang populations increased while populations for others including the ever popular Achilles and Clown Tangs dropped. In my mind this raises the question of what overall tang population is sustainable in these protected areas? What are the natural or preferred species distributions for the reef ecosystems and how do we maintain them?

wii64brawl
07/07/2013, 11:53 AM
So how many commonly collected fish are endemic to hawaii? I don't mind this as long as we don't lose the ability to get any commonly kept fish.

Salacia
07/07/2013, 12:24 PM
As someone who spent a number of years knee (or hip) deep in the freshwater side of the hobby, I think this is probably a good idea.

Just because a species is available in the wild does not mean that wholesalers should net most of the natural population, move them to their holding tanks and drop ship them to every retail establishment in the world.

It makes me cringe when I see freshwater rays for sale in a LFS and hearing Joe Bob Hobbyist asking the "oh so helpful" clerk if he can keep a Motoro ray in 55 with his large cichlids. (this species gets up to around 36").

Reading this doc, reading between the lines, it looks like they want collectors / wholesalers to have a permit and the correct equipment, stay out of the preservation areas, and don't collect fish that nobody has any business keeping in your average home reef aquarium (many sharks and rays). One could interpret that paying for the correct permit / license would give the government money to spend on preservation (but yeah, we all know how that works out sometimes).

Looking at the white list, there's a lot of smaller fish on that list (wrasses, etc.) but they're putting some limits on collecting yellow tangs. It also looks like they're limiting collection of corals in the reserve areas which is also a good thing in my opinion.

Reefkeeping is NOT the same as freshwater, I think the species are even more delicate and keeping a healthy environment requires a lot more work / research.

I'm not sure if something like this exists in the saltwater / reefkeeping world, but if Hawaii could set up something like Project Piaba (http://projectpiaba.wordpress.com/about/), that would be of some benefit.

Timfish
07/07/2013, 12:51 PM
Reading through the Piaba website and Hawai'i DLNR/DAR website http://hawaii.gov/dlnr/dar/index.html it seems to me Hawai'i already has well established programs.

mkj
07/07/2013, 01:19 PM
If you're pro aquarium, then you're anti environment. Can't spin it any other way, even if you would like to.

Study fish in natural environment, unless you're an licensed expert trying to figure out how to breed fish. Too many Joe Schmoes have wild fish because there pretty. Only buy captive bred fish not raised or wild caught, that way all us basement hobbyist don't harm environment (me included).

You can try and spin it, but reality is if your pro aquarium hobby you're then anti environment.

Timfish
07/07/2013, 06:06 PM
I'm sorry but I have to disagree and to be honest your comments strike me as very poorly informed. One of the things that seems to be ignored in criticisms of the aquarium trade is in many of the third world island countries the aquarium trade offers not only an economic incentive to manage their reefs wisely but also a means for locals who's only natural resource is the reef to lift themselves out of a subsistence life and poverty. These numbers are from an United Nations Environment Program study: In the Maldives in 2000 a kilogram of fish for food had a value of $6 while a kilogram of fish for the aquarium trade had a value of $500 and a ton of limestone collected for construction material had a value of $40 - $0 per ton but the same material sold as live rock had a value of $4000 to $8000. (1)

Just looking at the list of speakers for this years MACNA shows researchers that are able to do research on reef systems and expand our understanding of reef ecosystems in the wild SPECIFICALLY because of marine aquarists. One of the foremost experts and taxonomist on octocorals in the world is Micheal Jaines who PRIVATELY funds his own peer reviewed research by running one of the foremost aquarium maintenance services in the country, http://www.aquatouch.com .

(1) http://www.unep.org/PDF/From_Ocean_To_Aquarium_report.pdf

billsreef
07/08/2013, 05:17 AM
Corals being reared in research labs for study and propagated for nurseries are all being done so with methods first discovered by reef aquarium hobbyists. I also know quite a number of marine biologists (I'm one of them) with tanks at home. Be hard pressed to really consider any of us anti environment.

Timfish
07/09/2013, 04:42 PM
So how many commonly collected fish are endemic to hawaii? I don't mind this as long as we don't lose the ability to get any commonly kept fish.

If my math is correct appendix A of Hawai'i Department of Land an Ntural resources, Division of Aquatic Resources report, http://hawaii.gov/dlnr/dar/pubs/ar_hrs188F5v2.pdf lists 104 species collected in 2009. 45 species had less than 100 specimens collected and another 54 species had less than 1000 collected (including 480 Flame Angels). By comparison Yellow Tangs were more than 1.6 million collected. The reference Billsreef posted, http://files.hawaii.gov/dlnr/meeting/submittals/130628/F-DAR-Submittals-F2.pdf lists the 40 species on the new permitted "white list", pg 29, chapter 13-60.4-7 (b). As I read these regulations there are no limits on yellow tangs between 2" and 4.5" TL and daily limits to no more than 5 specimens less than 2" TL and no more than 5 specimens longer than 4.5" TL. Also notable is no more than 10 Achilles Tangs per day and Flame Angels are no longer allowed to be collected.

wii64brawl
07/09/2013, 07:53 PM
So as many 2"-4.5" yellow tangs can be collected? But none or above or below those sizes?

Bratyboy2
07/09/2013, 08:47 PM
Guess we will be seeing more flame angels from Marshall islands then...forgot they were from Hawaii...better get one while ya can...jeez

albano
07/09/2013, 09:14 PM
Guess we will be seeing more flame angels from Marshall islands then...forgot they were from Hawaii...better get one while ya can...jeez

Most people/LFSs have never seen a Hawaiian flame angel... They are rarely available

Bratyboy2
07/09/2013, 09:24 PM
Really? I honestly thought that was the main place of collection... guess I learned something new!

Anyone know what's going on with potters angelfish?

billsreef
07/10/2013, 05:08 AM
They are actually fairly widespread.

http://www.fishbase.org/Country/CountryList.php?ID=7814&GenusName=Centropyge&SpeciesName=loriculus

A lot of what gets sold as Hawaiian Flame Angels never saw more of Hawaii than a brief layover for the the plane to refuel, if that.

Timfish
07/10/2013, 12:34 PM
So as many 2"-4.5" yellow tangs can be collected? But none or above or below those sizes?

I would suggest downloading the PDFs the links go to. Some of it is pretty interesting, some is pretty thick. No more than 5 per day under 2" or over 4.5". While I did not see any specific limits on the number of tangs that could be collected between 2" and 4.5" there are restrictions on nets and there is the practical restriction of the amount of time a diver can remain under water.

ninja66999
08/09/2013, 07:31 AM
wow, cnvos on here seem to turn bad quick lol

Gill_bucket
08/09/2013, 01:14 PM
Just curious but how would one gain that experience without actually keeping fish and inverts? By that logic you would have to have the experience before keeping those animals.

Also it must be nice to have immortal fish because every fish I have ever bought will die at some point. Sure it may take 10 years, but if it is a wild specimen the moment it is removed from the reef it is pretty much dead for that system.

One way to learn is to read. I'm not saying YOU don't read, I'm just pointing out that many people just go buy a fish with no clue about its specific requirements. Another way to learn is start with freshwater or at a minimum start with more hardy fish. I see so many people buy a Yellow Tang as their first fish. Once again I'm not saying you did this, I'm just pointing out what I think the poster your responding to was getting at. Keeping fish is a privilege, not a right. The collection of marine organisms should be regulated. The price of fish will go up but perhapse that would lead to less thoughtless disregard for their well being.

Gill_bucket
08/09/2013, 01:22 PM
That's not an ecological factor, it's an emotional factor. As far as the ocean concerned, any fish taken out of the ocean is as good as dead...even the one that lives in a well kept fish tank for 20 years.

Ya, but if every hobbyist had to replace their fish on an annual basis (due to improper husbandry) wouldn't that mean more fish are being taken?

albano
08/09/2013, 02:50 PM
Ya, but if every hobbyist had to replace their fish on an annual basis (due to improper husbandry) wouldn't that mean more fish are being taken?

??????

billsreef
08/09/2013, 04:55 PM
Ya, but if every hobbyist had to replace their fish on an annual basis (due to improper husbandry) wouldn't that mean more fish are being taken?

From a strictly fisheries biology standpoint, that is irrelevant so long as the catch is based on sustainable yields. Simply doesn't matter to nature if the fish we take live in an aquarium or die. Mind you, that is not saying we shouldn't do the best to keep our aquarium fish alive.

ca1ore
08/12/2013, 07:46 PM
so long as the catch is based on sustainable yields.u

That is exactly the point! Doesn't matter why fish are removed from the ocean - whether for the table or the tank - as long as the catch is sustainable. The reality is that every fish that is caught for the hobby is a dead fish, just a matter of how long. Some will survive longer in our tanks than it would have in the ocean, some less.

oldsaint
08/13/2013, 08:36 AM
The reality is that every fish that is caught for the hobby is a dead fish, just a matter of how long.

As opposed to living forever in the ocean? :confused:

albano
08/13/2013, 01:28 PM
The reality is that every fish that is caught for the hobby is a dead fish, just a matter of how long.

For ANY reason!
Do 'food' fish have a happy life after they're caught?

HumbleFish
08/13/2013, 10:31 PM
Just food for thought.....

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/73570_694185803930825_1732565973_n.jpg

agruetz
08/14/2013, 11:57 AM
From a strictly fisheries biology standpoint, that is irrelevant so long as the catch is based on sustainable yields. Simply doesn't matter to nature if the fish we take live in an aquarium or die. Mind you, that is not saying we shouldn't do the best to keep our aquarium fish alive.

+ 1 total agreement sustainable practices are the best no so much which can and cannot be caught.

Maivortex
09/01/2013, 11:09 AM
After being a resident in many islands of Hawaii I dont think any laws are going to change what is taken from the ocean. There is too much natural resource and very little enforcement. The people making the laws are uninformed, have lived there for a few years, think dolphins are cute fish, and could not tell a freshwater fish from a saltwater fish. I have volunteered in various reef societies on the islands and it is composed of reef amateurs that hate aquariums, mean while they are stepping on the reef with an inept ability to snorkel.
On the other side there are those that have lived on the islands their whole life and feel entitled to everything in the ocean. I would frequently camp on the beach overnight. During this time I have seen gill nets with illegal size mesh set on the beach over night , unattended with by-catch such as baby sharks, turtles, rays tangled in the nets and left to die. I have seen tiger sharks caught and stabbed to death on the beach and thrown back in "cause their bad". If these violators get a talking to from law enforcement it is rare let a lone any punishment. The islands are in need of education about the natural resources starting at the elementary school level. On paper it looks great, but No regulations are going to make change in reality.

Timfish
09/01/2013, 03:27 PM
Miavortex, it is sad to hear about a shark being brutally and senslessly killed as they are so important to the health of Hawi'is reefs. I have to disagree with your generalizations however. Reading through the links posted on this thread it is clear the laws have increased the tang populations on the west coast of Hawai'i. If you know of conflicting research I am eager to read it.

yagesz
09/01/2013, 03:35 PM
Humble fish that is the saddest thing I have seen posted. I really want an Achilles for my new tank and this saddened me.

On the main topic though I hope Hawaii successfully implements this plan. I hate reading about dying reefs and how they have shrunk and shrunk. I would like to see them better protected. And As the list shows the captive breeds thats fairly impressive. Have the fish i want are on that list and I will be buying as many as i can that are captive bred. Anyways. Just my thoughts

Timfish
09/01/2013, 03:45 PM
The link to the 2010 report to the Legislature referenced earlier has changed to: http://files.hawaii.gov/dlnr/reports-to-the-legislature/2010/dar/DAR10-Hawaii-Fisheries-2010.pdf

Maivortex
09/01/2013, 07:27 PM
Humble fish that is the saddest thing I have seen posted. I really want an Achilles for my new tank and this saddened me.

On the main topic though I hope Hawaii successfully implements this plan. I hate reading about dying reefs and how they have shrunk and shrunk. I would like to see them better protected. And As the list shows the captive breeds thats fairly impressive. Have the fish i want are on that list and I will be buying as many as i can that are captive bred. Anyways. Just my thoughts

There is nothing sad about that photo. Nothing wrong with people eating fish. In Hawaii, Achillies tang are eaten every day. They are yummy.

HumbleFish
09/01/2013, 09:51 PM
Humble fish that is the saddest thing I have seen posted. I really want an Achilles for my new tank and this saddened me.

On the main topic though I hope Hawaii successfully implements this plan. I hate reading about dying reefs and how they have shrunk and shrunk. I would like to see them better protected. And As the list shows the captive breeds thats fairly impressive. Have the fish i want are on that list and I will be buying as many as i can that are captive bred. Anyways. Just my thoughts

The point I was trying to make with that photo is fisherman take far more fish out of the ocean to eat, than we do to keep. But for some reason what we do is demonized; while as Maivortex pointed out, fishing to eat is perfectly fine.

I mean, wha wha what?!

And no, I'm not against fisherman or people eating fish. ;) I just think there's a double standard.

yagesz
09/02/2013, 12:38 AM
I agree with that guy above me. It is a double standard. Fisherman are killing far more in my opinion. Whether it be for food or extra that is not part of there catch such as the like when you catch sharks and such in nets

Maivortex
09/02/2013, 08:40 PM
Miavortex, it is sad to hear about a shark being brutally and senslessly killed as they are so important to the health of Hawi'is reefs. I have to disagree with your generalizations however. Reading through the links posted on this thread it is clear the laws have increased the tang populations on the west coast of Hawai'i. If you know of conflicting research I am eager to read it.

Yes the yellow tangs are increasing, but at the same time the achillies and kole tangs are decreasing. It is extremely unclear if the increase in yellow tangs has anything to do with the new laws. Do you really think you can flip a switch and see a change in such a complex system such as the marine web? What we are seeing may just be the natural cycle of yellow tang populations. Look how the populations decline every 4 years. This type of cyclic behavior has nothing to to do with a law. My main generalization is that education is needed before we are to really change the oceans of Hawaii. Have you been to hawaii or sat in class room in hawaii or talked to a local in hawaii before? Perhaps this would shed some light on efficacy of laws with no enforcement and I guarantee that 90% of the population in the island knows nothing of a law.

Bratyboy2
09/02/2013, 08:43 PM
Well maybe they should stop eating the achillies tangs! Lol

Its sad that the beautiful fish is declining and that so many fish are not making a come back though

billsreef
09/03/2013, 05:38 AM
It is extremely unclear if the increase in yellow tangs has anything to do with the new laws.

Indeed. The population increase in Yellow Tangs is seen equally in areas that are unaffected by the new laws, as well as being the same increase both outside of MPA's as well as within. This really suggests the population increase had little to nothing to do with any regulations and is simply natural population variability. If anything, and this is purely conjecture on my part, the problem HI has been having with algae could be providing more food for the Yellow Tangs and that could possibly be at the root of the Yellow Tang increase. However, I don't know if there has been any research into this idea, and it would require a good bit to move beyond a simple hypothesis. So if any grad students out there want to run with it, go for it and let us know what you find ;)

ReeferKimberly
09/03/2013, 05:47 AM
Fine by me. Fish are so cheap, waaaaay cheaper than when I used to work for aquariums many years ago. I prefer fish to cost more so people think a little more before buying them. A dime a dozen fish is much less loss to most people than a $100 fish, no matter what the species. I am all about breeding as many in captivity as possible, same goes for coral. If there are some species that will now be more expensive or even impossible to find I am fine with that. I am certainly not perfect, everyone has lost fish....it just shocked me when I got back into the hobby how much cheaper fish seemed to be because there were not enough limits.

saltwater808
09/03/2013, 11:27 PM
After being a resident in many islands of Hawaii I dont think any laws are going to change what is taken from the ocean. There is too much natural resource and very little enforcement. The people making the laws are uninformed, have lived there for a few years, think dolphins are cute fish, and could not tell a freshwater fish from a saltwater fish. I have volunteered in various reef societies on the islands and it is composed of reef amateurs that hate aquariums, mean while they are stepping on the reef with an inept ability to snorkel.
On the other side there are those that have lived on the islands their whole life and feel entitled to everything in the ocean. I would frequently camp on the beach overnight. During this time I have seen gill nets with illegal size mesh set on the beach over night , unattended with by-catch such as baby sharks, turtles, rays tangled in the nets and left to die. I have seen tiger sharks caught and stabbed to death on the beach and thrown back in "cause their bad". If these violators get a talking to from law enforcement it is rare let a lone any punishment. The islands are in need of education about the natural resources starting at the elementary school level. On paper it looks great, but No regulations are going to make change in reality.

They are not trying to regulate the people you saw on the beach that night, those people have been camping there for 100's of years. The laws are trying to regulate people like you. Who come to my islands think you know better talk cheap then leave.

Locals don't join reef clubs??? Really? What are you talking about?

addo
09/05/2013, 07:50 AM
They are not trying to regulate the people you saw on the beach that night, those people have been camping there for 100's of years. The laws are trying to regulate people like you. Who come to my islands think you know better talk cheap then leave.

Locals don't join reef clubs??? Really? What are you talking about?

Dude, laws apply to everyone, local or not!

He never said locals don't join reef clubs, what are you talking about?

saltwater808
09/05/2013, 05:10 PM
Dude, laws apply to everyone, local or not!

He never said locals don't join reef clubs, what are you talking about?

My point is: The same locals where here before the laws and before the reef was in trouble. Don't you get it? It like your indians, casinos are illegal in CA but yet there they stand 300 room resort smack dab in the middle of CA. We have sovereign rights that you folks don't even know about. Things that would be considered grey area in some courts even here.

The reef club thing came out wrong on text. Sorry for the confusion. I just dont know anyone who would join those clubs that are from here. Must be tourist that have time shares or something. I'm talking about real families that live off the land and sea.4th , 5 th gen fishermans who know every law that has changed. Who sit at the county meetings all day to make sure laws that are brought to this community don't effect his family to much and not just benefit tree hugging rich people who call them selves local cause they live here for 4 months out of the year. All trying to save us from our selves.

albano
09/05/2013, 05:51 PM
We have sovereign rights that you folks don't even know about.
I think that 'native' Hawaiians get free housing/land, right?

saltwater808
09/05/2013, 06:47 PM
I think that 'native' Hawaiians get free housing/land, right?

Well that's one of those gray areas again. You have families on a list for 2-3 generations that have not received any land yet. Then you have some that where given land with no water or it cost X amount of thousands to have water pipes put in. Then they are families who are born and raised / work /go to school on one side of the island and are given land on the other side of the island with no resources to move / build housing and change jobs. It's pretty much a mess.
That's not even the sovereign rights I'm talking about. I'm referring to Kanakmoli and similar nations who have there own driver's license and license plates who run around on a whole other set of rules (which all fall in that "gray" area again).
Hawaiians had a chance to go the native American way the reservation etc.. They not as a whole decided not to go that route. One of the reasons being Hawaii was illegal taken from its people. With a promise from the US gov. That things would be made right and Hawaiians are still waiting on that promise. And all of the said groups can not agree on what should be done. So you have this huge stalemate..

Maivortex
09/05/2013, 09:43 PM
[QUOTE=saltwater808;21870062]They are not trying to regulate the people you saw on the beach that night, those people have been camping there for 100's of years. The laws are trying to regulate people like you. Who come to my islands think you know better talk cheap then leave.

Locals don't join reef clubs??? Really? What are you talking about?[/QUOTE

It does not matter if your a tourist or a local. No one has the right to slaughter a tiger shark with no intention of eating it. I agree with you the laws do not regulate locals cos they do what eva they want and spoil the land cos they feel that they are entitled. Entitled or not, the land will suffer. Tourist dont litter in hawaii but meanwhile locals leave garbage every where because they are "entitled". It is this naive mentality..... and you are a perfect example of my initial point that money should be spent on educating local residents of hawaii, beginning with the children about the biology of the ocean before they get too old and clueless screaming about sovereignty, and go out trashing the island like they own it. Hawaii belongs to USA, and if it didn't ya'll would be starving cos the ocean would be a cesspool by now.

saltwater808
09/06/2013, 01:52 AM
[QUOTE=saltwater808;21870062]They are not trying to regulate the people you saw on the beach that night, those people have been camping there for 100's of years. The laws are trying to regulate people like you. Who come to my islands think you know better talk cheap then leave.

Locals don't join reef clubs??? Really? What are you talking about?[/QUOTE

It does not matter if your a tourist or a local. No one has the right to slaughter a tiger shark with no intention of eating it. I agree with you the laws do not regulate locals cos they do what eva they want and spoil the land cos they feel that they are entitled. Entitled or not, the land will suffer. Tourist dont litter in hawaii but meanwhile locals leave garbage every where because they are "entitled". It is this naive mentality..... and you are a perfect example of my initial point that money should be spent on educating local residents of hawaii, beginning with the children about the biology of the ocean before they get too old and clueless screaming about sovereignty, and go out trashing the island like they own it. Hawaii belongs to USA, and if it didn't ya'll would be starving cos the ocean would be a cesspool by now.

So in the mainland no one hunts for pure enjoyment? Who's spoiling the land? The rich who come here and develope on acers of prime ocean front land just to live for the summer while Hawaiians live homeless? On that same development massive run offs are making its way to the ocean and wiping out entire reefs. Or the rich who have 10 charter boats and bring 1000's of people to see our oceans wild life?

You lived here before you know very well the rich move in and the locals get shafted.
It wasn't a cesspool before the hostile take over.

How can you say the kids don't know about their own ocean? Where are you getting your info? I just told you my friends and family live and breath ocean they know what is best for their livelihood. Thats why you left you will never understand the nature of Hawaii your to set in the mainland BS where you have to lock your homes and worry about your children getting kidnapped.

I cant even believe I have to argue with someone on this. This is insane. Hawaiians have a right to scream. They where robbed of their land do you understand this? The U.S. government agrees with me look it up. It's in legislation a full apology and acts to correct it are already in place. Its the Hawaiians who can't decide what is best for the people as a whole.

I assume you are a teacher?

trae
09/06/2013, 03:20 AM
After being a resident in many islands of Hawaii I dont think any laws are going to change what is taken from the ocean. There is too much natural resource and very little enforcement. The people making the laws are uninformed, have lived there for a few years, think dolphins are cute fish, and could not tell a freshwater fish from a saltwater fish. I have volunteered in various reef societies on the islands and it is composed of reef amateurs that hate aquariums, mean while they are stepping on the reef with an inept ability to snorkel.
On the other side there are those that have lived on the islands their whole life and feel entitled to everything in the ocean. I would frequently camp on the beach overnight. During this time I have seen gill nets with illegal size mesh set on the beach over night , unattended with by-catch such as baby sharks, turtles, rays tangled in the nets and left to die. I have seen tiger sharks caught and stabbed to death on the beach and thrown back in "cause their bad". If these violators get a talking to from law enforcement it is rare let a lone any punishment. The islands are in need of education about the natural resources starting at the elementary school level. On paper it looks great, but No regulations are going to make change in reality.

trae
09/06/2013, 03:34 AM
So you think that Hawaiians need to be educated on the ocean that they live on, or is it the visitors that need to be educated on Hawaiian life? All I see is some foreigner who is stationed, or visits here and the first thing they want to do is "open an aquarium store because it's easy". I eat Tangs. As well as all the other fish that would be called aquarium fish. I also do not fish until I have "a cooler full", nor do I break pieces of coral off of the reef just because it is there. It sounds like you are describing Snorkel bob and associates...

addo
09/06/2013, 04:25 AM
It, seems there are two sides to this and both use the other side as a scapegoat for the problems the reefs are having, instead of just trying to fix the problems best they can. I'm sure there are individuals doing good and bad on both sides.

But what do I know, I'm on the other side of the planet LOL.

billsreef
09/06/2013, 05:44 AM
So in the mainland no one hunts for pure enjoyment? Who's spoiling the land? The rich who come here and develope on acers of prime ocean front land just to live for the summer while Hawaiians live homeless? On that same development massive run offs are making its way to the ocean and wiping out entire reefs. Or the rich who have 10 charter boats and bring 1000's of people to see our oceans wild life?

Those problems are far from endemic to HI, they are found along the entire US coast line as well many other countries.

How can you say the kids don't know about their own ocean? Where are you getting your info? I just told you my friends and family live and breath ocean they know what is best for their livelihood.Unless being Hawaiian confers some inborn mystical understanding of the ocean, ecology, fisheries, etc. I wouldn't expect anyone to know these things simply from generations of living and breathing the ocean. Again, these are issues common to any coastal community anyplace in the world. I know people that make their living off the ocean that have an excellent understanding, and others that are clueless and don't believe things like overfishing or pollution are even possible. So yes, a good education is necessary, despite growing up and living the coastal life. BTW having spent a lifetime on the coast, most of it on an end of an island whose primary economy for generations has been fishing, farming and tourism I've seen first hand all the these issues ;)

billsreef
09/06/2013, 05:46 AM
So you think that Hawaiians need to be educated on the ocean that they live on, or is it the visitors that need to be educated on Hawaiian life? All I see is some foreigner who is stationed, or visits here and the first thing they want to do is "open an aquarium store because it's easy". I eat Tangs. As well as all the other fish that would be called aquarium fish. I also do not fish until I have "a cooler full", nor do I break pieces of coral off of the reef just because it is there. It sounds like you are describing Snorkel bob and associates...

IMO everyone needs to be educated on the ocean, not just Hawaiians or tourists to Hawaii, but everyone everywhere. Our oceans are just too important not to ;)

KafudaFish
09/06/2013, 07:43 AM
Well that's one of those gray areas again. You have families on a list for 2-3 generations that have not received any land yet. Then you have some that where given land with no water or it cost X amount of thousands to have water pipes put in. Then they are families who are born and raised / work /go to school on one side of the island and are given land on the other side of the island with no resources to move / build housing and change jobs. It's pretty much a mess.
That's not even the sovereign rights I'm talking about. I'm referring to Kanakmoli and similar nations who have there own driver's license and license plates who run around on a whole other set of rules (which all fall in that "gray" area again).
Hawaiians had a chance to go the native American way the reservation etc.. They not as a whole decided not to go that route. One of the reasons being Hawaii was illegal taken from its people. With a promise from the US gov. That things would be made right and Hawaiians are still waiting on that promise. And all of the said groups can not agree on what should be done. So you have this huge stalemate..

So what you are telling us is that families are given free land yet they are expected to pay for the utilities to be installed on site just like the rest of the United States?

You do realize that if people want city water etc. on the mainland they have to pay for it themselves or they run on well water?

Also most people commute to work on a daily basis thus why there is urban sprawl.
This trend has been in place since WWII:

1930s - 1940s people lived and worked on the farm
1950s people left the farms and worked and lived in the cities.
1970s people worked in the cities but lived in suburbia.
2000s people are now returning to the cities to do both.

Honestly somewhere around 70-75% of the US population lives on 3% of the land. Guess where the majority of that land is situated?

Correct, next to water.

Guess what the common theme is regarding the environment and people?

Correct again. Regardless of location, race, or socioeconomic status in general people are clueless like Bill stated above.

It is funny that you state we and you like we are different but are we?

Finally not everyone is like Snorkel Bob.

trae
09/06/2013, 08:12 AM
IMO everyone needs to be educated on the ocean, not just Hawaiians or tourists to Hawaii, but everyone everywhere. Our oceans are just too important not to ;)

Thats a broad, but interesting statement Billsreef. The fact is, there are many research facilities within Hawaii that very much so do just that. But again, I believe some people here comment as if someone needs to "show us the light" or whatever the case may be when half of the people here are worried more about what fish will be allowed collection for export from Hawaii. Are we still discussing the benefits of a Marine sanctuary or now education levels? I for one will not stand by and listen to couch opinion after the countless hours I spend every weekend picking trash out of coral reefs at Sharks cove or the work that we do at Koneohe on a daily basis to make sure we have a reef to explore tommorow. I agree, everyone everywhere needs to be aware.

saltwater808
09/06/2013, 11:13 AM
So what you are telling us is that families are given free land yet they are expected to pay for the utilities to be installed on site just like the rest of the United States?

You do realize that if people want city water etc. on the mainland they have to pay for it themselves or they run on well water?

Also most people commute to work on a daily basis thus why there is urban sprawl.
This trend has been in place since WWII:

1930s - 1940s people lived and worked on the farm
1950s people left the farms and worked and lived in the cities.
1970s people worked in the cities but lived in suburbia.
2000s people are now returning to the cities to do both.

Honestly somewhere around 70-75% of the US population lives on 3% of the land. Guess where the majority of that land is situated?

Correct, next to water.

Guess what the common theme is regarding the environment and people?

Correct again. Regardless of location, race, or socioeconomic status in general people are clueless like Bill stated above.

It is funny that you state we and you like we are different but are we?

Finally not everyone is like Snorkel Bob.

Oh? Ok. Problem solved then we'll just drill for well water. lol..

We are different we live here and deal with problems in a real life everyday world. While you sit there and tell is how we should do it. With no real understanding of what your talking about. There is a culture here that is like no other place in the world.

KafudaFish
09/06/2013, 12:31 PM
Oh? Ok. Problem solved then we'll just drill for well water. lol..

We are different we live here and deal with problems in a real life everyday world. While you sit there and tell is how we should do it. With no real understanding of what your talking about. There is a culture here that is like no other place in the world.

:debi:

I had a reply all typed out for you but then I realized that it too would be taken as an “outsider’s point of view” therefore it must be wrong and should be ignored.

Would you listen to me if I told you I have family in Hawaii since 1971, my aunt is native, and my cousins’ spouses’ families are all native?

Probably not since they don't share the same mentality as you right?





Trae I applaud your efforts and understand the frustration you have every time you go pick up after others. No matter where you go it is obvious that educating the masses has failed time and time again.


Does this look familiar?

http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af197/KafudaFish/lounge%20worthy/trash_zpsc05e969f.jpg (http://s1007.photobucket.com/user/KafudaFish/media/lounge%20worthy/trash_zpsc05e969f.jpg.html)

Sadly 7 of the 9 bags of trash were removed from a single location at the mouth of a small creek during my lunch break today.

saltwater808
09/06/2013, 01:01 PM
Look I just can't stand here why you blame people of Hawaii for the oceans problems. Mass development along coastal areas is a huge problem. Run off of 10-15 miles of developed land in to the ocean everytime it rains (it rains everyday) is a huge concern.
stopping families camping on the beach for the weekend is not going fix the problem. Huge business on the ocean needs much more regulation. That's all I'm saying.

On Kauai we banned plastics shopping bags. They are illegal.... We try to make a differance...

KafudaFish
09/06/2013, 03:10 PM
1. What are you going to do? Sit down?
2. Of course I am blaming the people of Hawaii and anyone who visits for the ocean's problems just like I blame myself and the fine citizens from Illinois for the dead zone in the Gulf of Mexico and all those Miami citizens on the impacts to the Carribbean and the Everglades.
3. There isn't a distinction between a native camping on the beach and eating a tang, or one going into an aquarium, or when stormwater runoff impacts the reef and a tang dies in the ocean because dead is dead.

Everything we do has an impact and I could make the argument that between the two of us you have a greater negative impact on Hawaii's marine ecosystem than I do.

I am sorry that you feel like you are talking to the enemy but that is further from the truth than you know.

Good luck with your fight and I hope that you win.

saltwater808
09/06/2013, 06:54 PM
1.

Everything we do has an impact and I could make the argument that between the two of us you have a greater negative impact on Hawaii's marine ecosystem than I do.

Ok guy. Next time your at lydgate park first saturday of every month to help clean marine debris from Japan call me up I'll buy you lunch.

billsreef
09/06/2013, 07:14 PM
Thats a broad, but interesting statement Billsreef. The fact is, there are many research facilities within Hawaii that very much so do just that. But again, I believe some people here comment as if someone needs to "show us the light" or whatever the case may be when half of the people here are worried more about what fish will be allowed collection for export from Hawaii. Are we still discussing the benefits of a Marine sanctuary or now education levels? I for one will not stand by and listen to couch opinion after the countless hours I spend every weekend picking trash out of coral reefs at Sharks cove or the work that we do at Koneohe on a daily basis to make sure we have a reef to explore tommorow. I agree, everyone everywhere needs to be aware.

Having worked for some marine research facilities, and currently working for one, I know those same issues face the coast everywhere ;) While there are indeed some here that are opining from the "couch", some of us actually are opining from a standpoint of both a formal education in the subject along with hands on experience ;) Sadly I've seen not only piles of garbage on the shoreline, but far out to sea :( It comes from everywhere. Sometimes from people that should know better, sometimes from "citidiots". Those of us with the knowledge and dedication should do the best we can to spread that to others and do what we can to save our respective sections of the oceans as well as globally. Maybe eventually we'll get through to the clueless and have less garbage to pick up from our beaches.

billsreef
09/06/2013, 07:19 PM
Mass development along coastal areas is a huge problem. Run off of 10-15 miles of developed land in to the ocean everytime it rains (it rains everyday) is a huge concern.
stopping families camping on the beach for the weekend is not going fix the problem. Huge business on the ocean needs much more regulation. That's all I'm saying.

Agreed.

On Kauai we banned plastics shopping bags. They are illegal.... We try to make a differance...

Excellent. Wish more places would do that, along with banning plastic bottles. It's rare I take a class out on the boat and don't end up retrieving some plastic garbage in the nets :(

trae
09/07/2013, 12:45 AM
:debi:

I had a reply all typed out for you but then I realized that it too would be taken as an “outsider’s point of view” therefore it must be wrong and should be ignored.

Would you listen to me if I told you I have family in Hawaii since 1971, my aunt is native, and my cousins’ spouses’ families are all native?

Probably not since they don't share the same mentality as you right?





Trae I applaud your efforts and understand the frustration you have every time you go pick up after others. No matter where you go it is obvious that educating the masses has failed time and time again.


Does this look familiar?

http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af197/KafudaFish/lounge%20worthy/trash_zpsc05e969f.jpg (http://s1007.photobucket.com/user/KafudaFish/media/lounge%20worthy/trash_zpsc05e969f.jpg.html)

Sadly 7 of the 9 bags of trash were removed from a single location at the mouth of a small creek during my lunch break today.

This picture sums up my frustration, Its like working backwards. Fresh water drains back to the ocean. No matter what studies/solutions we propose or who we blame, it ultimately comes down to trash and poisons. Sorry If I have posted too much but the sea that we once knew is almost gone. How could we destroy something so peaceful for a lousy dollar?

trae
09/07/2013, 12:56 AM
Having worked for some marine research facilities, and currently working for one, I know those same issues face the coast everywhere ;) While there are indeed some here that are opining from the "couch", some of us actually are opining from a standpoint of both a formal education in the subject along with hands on experience ;) Sadly I've seen not only piles of garbage on the shoreline, but far out to sea :( It comes from everywhere. Sometimes from people that should know better, sometimes from "citidiots". Those of us with the knowledge and dedication should do the best we can to spread that to others and do what we can to save our respective sections of the oceans as well as globally. Maybe eventually we'll get through to the clueless and have less garbage to pick up from our beaches.

-Agreed Sir, the Pacific region is lucky to have you.:beer:

Chronicj7
09/07/2013, 01:02 AM
I have my DAR collection card in Hawaii as I just moved from there. This looks like it only applies to the Kona coast. Interested to see how they regulate it. Whether it Kona side only, Island wide or State wide.

Maivortex
09/07/2013, 09:29 PM
They are not trying to regulate the people you saw on the beach that night, those people have been camping there for 100's of years. The laws are trying to regulate people like you. Who come to my islands think you know better talk cheap then leave.

Locals don't join reef clubs??? Really? What are you talking about?

Exactly my point about reef clubs . They are made up of uniformed people (mostly people new to the area) that have no idea of what is right are wrong for the ocean. The sad fact is that these same people are influencing the laws being made.
As far as " this is my land " "my ocean" sovereignty BS, unless you are hawaiian than you are the haole foreigner since Hawaii is an American state. Americans are the locals and anyone else who is not Hawaiian are the haoles. So stop killng MY American ocean!

usmc121581
09/08/2013, 09:18 AM
Ok guy. Next time your at lydgate park first saturday of every month to help clean marine debris from Japan call me up I'll buy you lunch.

You cant even bring this up its happening in canada and on the west coast of the US. Not to mention in the other direction. So to bring this point up is pointless. Go visit another country besides something owned by the US its clean. For instance Nova Scotia no trash to be found on the streets or in the waters. Japan was nothing before an act of mother nature caused it.